DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[Setlist Scotty]

Make or break, as in the future of DT?

Not the whole band, but perhaps this lineup.

[nikatapi]

I agree that live is where it's really going to be make or break.

As for the new album? It's gonna be loved by a big chunk of the fan base, will be hated by a smaller chunk of the fan base and the remainder will be somewhere in the middle. Just as is always the case, although there will probably be a bigger chunk that love it just because MP's back.

I agree on this 100%
What i can imagine is that the band will put extra effort on the album to have something that is very solid and not rush the process, to get it right.

On the live aspect, it will be interesting, since i don't see MP playing live with a click, and this is something that the band used almost all of the years with MM on the drums, to sync visuals, backing vocal tracks as well as patch changes on guitar (and maybe keys?).

Of course, James' voice is not the same in the years post-Astonishing era, and i'm pretty sure this will also have an impact on the live shows, especially if no backing tracks are used to "cover" some of the shortcomings on that front.

Maybe they'll downtune older stuff (like they did for I&W) to help James be more comfortable.
But definitely the bar is set high and the stakes are high for the band, to "keep" people who will come back due to MP rejoining.

I also think that MP has thought about various things during these years, as i recall he already had a "masterplan" when he proposed the break to DT back in 2010. So he will definitely have ideas on setlist, show presentation and various other ideas to engage with the fans.

[TAC]

Make or break, as in the future of DT?

Not the whole band, but perhaps this lineup.

I'd love to hear more.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Come showtime, practically no one is going to notice whether they're playing to a click or not. It's just that now they think they have pre-hand knowledge that there is not going to be a click. It's an issue that has received an inordinate amount of attention as people try to explain why they simply were not satisfied by the last 10 years (which is fully in their right to do).

The actually noticable things most people are going to perceive straight out of the gate: 1. Hey it's Mike Portnoy! 2. Do I like this song? 3. Did JP nail that part? 4. How does JLB sound? 5. Hey it's Mike Portnoy back in DT!

No one is going to be standing there thinking 'oh yeah, that's it baby...they unintentionally rushed by half a second in the 2nd verse. This show is so much better now.'

EDIT: by the way, is it actually confirmed they're ditching the click? If memory serves me, it was not even Mangini who implemented the click. Rather it was JP and/or JR who wanted it. If that is the case are we so sure that they're going to capitulate to MP who are are presuming does not want to play with one? What if they actually LIKE playing with it.

[Nick]

I agree that live is where it's really going to be make or break.

As for the new album? It's gonna be loved by a big chunk of the fan base, will be hated by a smaller chunk of the fan base and the remainder will be somewhere in the middle. Just as is always the case, although there will probably be a bigger chunk that love it just because MP's back.

Live will be the big test, and it's why I can only be somewhat excited for MPs return. Because even if every one of my hopes with his return is realized, the sad part is there is still a pretty hefty limiting factor on how good DT can be live these days, and that saddens me. Still, I of course welcome anything that rekindles some lost love of their live shows.

[crystalstars17]

I'm more curious than excited. I've been out on new DT since before MP left, but this feels like this has the potential to rejuvenate the band, and maybe they'll rediscovery some of the magic that initially made them special for me. LTE3 at least recaptured enough of the spirt of what made that project exciting for me that I'm optimistic that DT might get back there as well. But I won't be surprised if the new album doesn't move me either.

I'm right there with you, but coming from the opposite end of things (MM era fan). I'm skeptical rather than excited. I would say cautiously optimistic about the 40th anniversary tour, because I know that for an event so special they will give it their all. But I'm not thrilled (understatement) at all about changing setlists. I'm skeptical at best about the idea of no click (even the greatest bands use them today). And though MM was not my favorite band member (that honor goes to James), I will still miss him in the band. I will also miss everything that made the band who they were in the last decade. I love DoT and A View, and until the personnel change happened, I was excited for a new album being more of the same. What can I say, now, I am just plain skeptical.

I'll be honest here and admit that I'm experiencing the reverse of what most here are experiencing: a nearly complete lack of excitement. In the last six months, I have come to realize that there are other bands right now that sincerely bring me more joy. The level of joy that I used to have over DT, who is now, dare I say it, kind of in the doghouse. Honestly, and I say this with more than a little sadness, they will have to create miracles with the new album, and the 40th anniversary tour, to get back into their former position as my #1 ranked band.

(And as for the "make or break" the current lineup, if they get rid of James, it's gonna be See ya later).

[WilliamMunny]

I'm right there with you, but coming from the opposite end of things (MM era fan). I'm skeptical rather than excited. I would say cautiously optimistic about the 40th anniversary tour, because I know that for an event so special they will give it their all. But I'm not thrilled (understatement) at all about changing setlists. I'm skeptical at best about the idea of no click (even the greatest bands use them today). And though MM was not my favorite band member (that honor goes to James), I will still miss him in the band. I will also miss everything that made the band who they were in the last decade. I love DoT and A View, and until the personnel change happened, I was excited for a new album being more of the same. What can I say, now, I am just plain skeptical.

I'll be honest here and admit that I'm experiencing the reverse of what most here are experiencing: a nearly complete lack of excitement. In the last six months, I have come to realize that there are other bands right now that sincerely bring me more joy. The level of joy that I used to have over DT, who is now, dare I say it, kind of in the doghouse. Honestly, and I say this with more than a little sadness, they will have to create miracles with the new album, and the 40th anniversary tour, to get back into their former position as my #1 ranked band.

(And as for the "make or break" the current lineup, if they get rid of James, it's gonna be See ya later).

You know, your post really resonates with me and brings me back to what I was feeling in the immediate wake of MP's departure.

So, yes, to borrow your line, "I'm right there with you, but coming from the opposite end of things."

That all said, A Dramatic Turn of Events completely exceeded my (admittedly low) expectations, so much so that I now rank it higher than albums like I&W. Granted, the 4 subsequent releases did little for me (and The Astonishing was a near death blow to my DT fandom), but the fact remains that the band pleasantly surprised me at a time when I was very skeptical.

My 'hope' for you is that you experience the same thing. But, if you don't, I also hope you stick around. Your posting and perspective is sorely needed around these parts, and you wouldn't be the first poster to hang around long after your passion for DT waned 

[Stadler]

You know, your post really resonates with me and brings me back to what I was feeling in the immediate wake of MP's departure.

So, yes, to borrow your line, "I'm right there with you, but coming from the opposite end of things."

That all said, A Dramatic Turn of Events completely exceeded my (admittedly low) expectations, so much so that I now rank it higher than albums like I&W. Granted, the 4 subsequent releases did little for me (and The Astonishing was a near death blow to my DT fandom), but the fact remains that the band pleasantly surprised me at a time when I was very skeptical.

My 'hope' for you is that you experience the same thing. But, if you don't, I also hope you stick around. Your posting and perspective is sorely needed around these parts, and you wouldn't be the first poster to hang around long after your passion for DT waned 

Yeah, that's all me too (except for the ADTOE part; it's good, but it doesn't eclipse the classic years for me). 

[WilliamMunny]

Yeah, that's all me too (except for the ADTOE part; it's good, but it doesn't eclipse the classic years for me).

It's definitely take some pretty serious (well, not that serious) soul-searching on my part to finally admit that to myself.

How could anything be better than I&W??? It's their freaking genre-defining sophomore release!

Don't get me wrong...I have nothing but love for I&W. The album needs no further justification here.

But, for me, song for song, ADTOE 'slightly' edges it out. Obviously, the albums share a similar template, but I feel like ADTOE actually improved upon some of the heavily-borrowed groundwork laid by I&W.

I 'slightly' prefer "On the Backs of Angels" to "Pull Me Under"
I 'slightly' prefer "Outcry" to "Metropolis"

I more than slightly prefer "Breaking All Illusions" to "Learning to Live"
I more than slightly prefer "This is the Life" to any of the I&W ballads

So, yeah, the albums are neck and neck, but it is what it is.

Fortunately, I don't need to choose! 

[hefdaddy42]

Come showtime, practically no one is going to notice whether they're playing to a click or not. It's just that now they think they have pre-hand knowledge that there is not going to be a click. It's an issue that has received an inordinate amount of attention as people try to explain why they simply were not satisfied by the last 10 years (which is fully in their right to do).

The actually noticable things most people are going to perceive straight out of the gate: 1. Hey it's Mike Portnoy! 2. Do I like this song? 3. Did JP nail that part? 4. How does JLB sound? 5. Hey it's Mike Portnoy back in DT!

No one is going to be standing there thinking 'oh yeah, that's it baby...they unintentionally rushed by half a second in the 2nd verse. This show is so much better now.'

I respectfully disagree with your minimization of the removal of the click. 

EDIT: by the way, is it actually confirmed they're ditching the click? If memory serves me, it was not even Mangini who implemented the click. Rather it was JP and/or JR who wanted it. If that is the case are we so sure that they're going to capitulate to MP who are are presuming does not want to play with one? What if they actually LIKE playing with it.

It wasn't Mangini's idea.  He certainly didn't need it to stay on time or anything.  It was JP's concept more than anything, and it was done to sync up the visuals with the music, as well as to sync backing vocal tracks with the music.  But if they weren't doing those things, they wouldn't have needed the click track, because Mangini IS a click track.

No, it hasn't been verified 100% that they won't use a click.  But I would be very surprised if they used it going forward.

[gborland]

I 'slightly' prefer "Outcry" to "Metropolis"

WTF. Heathen. 

[gborland]

Come showtime, practically no one is going to notice whether they're playing to a click or not.

We will notice.

In the click-track years, PMU for example always seemed painfully slow. It was begging for a bit of a boost, particularly when the drums come in during the intro.

[Setlist Scotty]

EDIT: by the way, is it actually confirmed they're ditching the click?

While it was never said outright, it was implied by some of the comments MP has made in interviews - can't find a specific quote right now, but I remember he basically said something to the effect that he would be controlling the tempo.
 
 

If memory serves me, it was not even Mangini who implemented the click. Rather it was JP and/or JR who wanted it. If that is the case are we so sure that they're going to capitulate to MP who are are presuming does not want to play with one? What if they actually LIKE playing with it.

Here's what MM said to Rodrigo in an interview before the lineup change was announced:

RA: One controversial thing in Dream Theater is the use of a click track which started when you joined the band. Do you feel it’s necessary to play to a click track live or is it because of the extra elements of the show like samples and triggers and so on?
MM: It’s the external elements and it didn’t start when I joined. I didn’t use one when I joined, though the whole point came out of a conversation. I believe it was with Jordan that I had the discussion, if I remember correctly, because somehow the video came up – a lack of sync – and I was like, “I can do that,” and that just opened it up.

 

In the click-track years, PMU for example always seemed painfully slow. It was begging for a bit of a boost, particularly when the drums come in during the intro.

IIRC, Trial of Tears was another where it felt like it was dragging.

[gzarruk]

Mike P is on record saying he doesn't ever want to play live with a click (though, I think this was before rejoining the band), and that's something he seems to be pretty adamant about. I expect it to be completely gone from the shows moving forward.

And, while some sections won't feel "slow" live, some will definitely be rushed, and that won't help either, especially the vocals.

[Mosh]

I don’t think it’s Portnoy’s call. He can be as adamant as he wants, but if JP + co want to keep videos synchronized and continue to use backing tracks, I don’t think MP has authority there.

[cramx3]

I don’t think it’s Portnoy’s call. He can be as adamant as he wants, but if JP + co want to keep videos synchronized and continue to use backing tracks, I don’t think MP has authority there.

It's not a requirement for videos to have clicks.  Lots of bands don't use click but have wild stage shows, they just need to be managed by a person live.  Iron Maiden are one example. But it does make it all easier when it's tied to the click.

Given they are legit playing an arena, I don't think they can just drop the videos, but I think it could be a legit option at some point to tone down the stage show a bit to let the live concert breathe more.  We will see. 

[gzarruk]

I don’t think it’s Portnoy’s call. He can be as adamant as he wants, but if JP + co want to keep videos synchronized and continue to use backing tracks, I don’t think MP has authority there.

They didn't use it for JP's solo tour, and that was even more John's call to make. My bet is it'll be gone for good from DT land live.

[cramx3]

They didn't use it for JP's solo tour

Speaking of, I saw JP's social advertise some items in his store. I scooped up a $10 tour tshirt from that last solo tour with Meanstreak  (also, since I was paying for shipping anyway, added the little tin of JP guitar picks)

[Orbert]

They didn't use it for JP's solo tour, and that was even more John's call to make. My bet is it'll be gone for good from DT land live.

Good point, and hopefully it bodes well for DT.

[crystalstars17]

I 'slightly' prefer "On the Backs of Angels" to "Pull Me Under"
I 'slightly' prefer "Outcry" to "Metropolis"

I more than slightly prefer "Breaking All Illusions" to "Learning to Live"
I more than slightly prefer "This is the Life" to any of the I&W ballads

I could've written every word! Except the last - here's where our opinions diverge. I actually rank This is the Life very low, and LOVE Wait for Sleep.

Thank you for the understanding and kind words regarding my last post. I'll be around, at least occasionally, until something big is actually going on (seems we'll need to wait til next year for the US tour), then as usual I'll emerge from the woodwork to become more active.

[Awaken]

They didn't use it for JP's solo tour, and that was even more John's call to make. My bet is it'll be gone for good from DT land live.

In fairness, there was nothing video wise to sync up during that tour either.  I'd love to see DT play like that again

[Mosh]

I understand they don’t need the clicks to run videos and also that it would be an easy enough change to make. I am just saying that if DT has grown accustomed to it and don’t want to change that approach, I doubt MP has enough sway at this point to change their minds.

[hefdaddy42]

I understand they don’t need the clicks to run videos and also that it would be an easy enough change to make. I am just saying that if DT has grown accustomed to it and don’t want to change that approach, I doubt MP has enough sway at this point to change their minds.

Unless I'm mistaken, most of the band didn't hear the actual click during live performances - only Mangini.  The rest of the band likely just had Mangini in their ears.

So just from a playing/performance perspective, it's not something they have "grown accustomed to" and they won't tell much difference on a night-in, night-out situation.

[Mosh]

Unless I'm mistaken, most of the band didn't hear the actual click during live performances - only Mangini.  The rest of the band likely just had Mangini in their ears.

So just from a playing/performance perspective, it's not something they have "grown accustomed to" and they won't tell much difference on a night-in, night-out situation.

OK I wasn't aware of that. I thought they were all running through clicks. Although I would argue that even if they aren't hearing a click, having a metronomically consistent performance is still going to feel different than one with (even slight) tempo variations throughout a song. But yea, I didn't realize it was just Mangini hearing the click. 

[MirrorMask]

While I understand the importance of the click track, as a non musician I think it would add more "anxiety". Everything is in sync and it's a train going at full speed (well, whatever speed the click track has) that cannot be stopped. You make a mistake without the click track, you get back into the song, you screw up with the click track, the ship has sailed.

[TAC]

I'm pretty sure that in a video or something, Mangini referred to it as "a lot of pressure" to play to the click where everything was riding on him.

[hefdaddy42]

OK I wasn't aware of that. I thought they were all running through clicks. Although I would argue that even if they aren't hearing a click, having a metronomically consistent performance is still going to feel different than one with (even slight) tempo variations throughout a song. But yea, I didn't realize it was just Mangini hearing the click.

The main difference they will notice is just the nuances that come with playing with different drummers.  Mangini would have played in mostly perfect metronome-like time with or without the click track, where Portnoy definitely plays with time a little bit, and performances can be slightly faster or slower depending on the night.

[crystalstars17]

Mangini would have played in mostly perfect metronome-like time with or without the click track

Forgive the dumb question, but isn't this what every drummer should do? Isn't that, basically, their job? Why would they ever "play with time a little bit" if keeping time is their job?

[Adami]

Forgive the dumb question, but isn't this what every drummer should do? Isn't that, basically, their job? Why would they ever "play with time a little bit" if keeping time is their job?

Tempos aren't always best when perfectly rigid.

Someone on youtube took, I think, Van Halen songs or something and quantized them perfectly to a click and they sounded quite different and worse.

[Cocopjojo]

Forgive the dumb question, but isn't this what every drummer should do? Isn't that, basically, their job? Why would they ever "play with time a little bit" if keeping time is their job?

Depends on the band and their goals for their live performances. Sometimes you adjust the time based on the audience's reaction - e.g. speed up or slow down depending on how into it they are. Sometimes one of the band members forgets a cue, so you lead the band to repeat a few measures, maybe a fraction slower, to give them time to pick it back up and restart. Or you don't do any of that and just keep everything super rigid and use a click, which obviously works as well. Just depends on how you want to do, and how loose you want your performance to be.

Compare 90s-era Spock's Beard live performances vs. 2018-era Neal Morse live performances. Neal in both cases, but looser back in the 90s. Some might say more lively and fun. All depends on what you're into.

[Lonk]

While I understand the importance of the click track, as a non musician I think it would add more "anxiety". Everything is in sync and it's a train going at full speed (well, whatever speed the click track has) that cannot be stopped. You make a mistake without the click track, you get back into the song, you screw up with the click track, the ship has sailed.

I would say that depends.

The 2014 show I saw, JLB messed up the lyrics for Lie, and pretty much skipped the entire 2nd verse.  While he messed up, he was able to sync back up for the chorus (though now thinking about it, your statement is still true since the 2nd verse was already gone  ): https://youtu.be/INW0zneWv6k?feature=shared&t=388

At the same time, I've seen this happen with bands that are not playing to a click and they just repeat 4 measures (Or however long the phrase is) to give the singer a chance to catch up.

[Adami]

I would say that depends.

The 2014 show I saw, JLB messed up the lyrics for Lie, and pretty much skipped the entire 2nd verse.  While he messed up, he was able to sync back up for the chorus (though now thinking about it, your statement is still true since the 2nd verse was already gone  ): https://youtu.be/INW0zneWv6k?feature=shared&t=388

At the same time, I've seen this happen with bands that are not playing to a click and they just repeat 4 measures (Or however long the phrase is) to give the singer a chance to catch up.

It depends who is messing up and what else is happening. If, for some reason, it was JUST JLB and the click, that would have changed the outcome. But since the band was still on, he could come back in later.

But if the drummer messes up the click (and can't VERY quickly figure it all out) then the whole thing is screwed.

[Stadler]

Forgive the dumb question, but isn't this what every drummer should do? Isn't that, basically, their job? Why would they ever "play with time a little bit" if keeping time is their job?

Adami cited Van Halen, but the real paradigm here is John Bonham and Led Zeppelin. Even in the studio, the time ebbed and flowed a bit (you can hear it on the classic Stairway To Heaven).   There are probably 10 or 15 examples on "How The West Was Won" alone.

Not that you should know this, but I've cited the Temple Of The Dog version of Zeppelin's "Achilles Last Stand" as perhaps the best Zeppelin cover I've ever heard live.  Matt Cameron (the drummer) pushed and pulled the tempo like a maestro and it made the song so powerful it was breathtaking. 


From the late, great Neil Peart (bold is mine):

"Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, 'absolutely helpful.'"

"On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a pre-programmed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.

"Speaking of rigidity, one cautionary note - after some years of working with clicks and sequencers to that degree of exactitude, I felt my playing was getting stiff. If that was the price of precision, I didn't like it - but what to do? In the mid-'90s I studied with the late Freddie Gruber, who emphasized movement over technique - or at least movement in the service of technique - and he helped greatly in loosening me up. A little over ten years later, in the late 2000s, I studied with Peter Erskine, and he also guided me along the road to more relaxed tempo control and improvisational ability. I owe much to them, and to my first teacher, Don George - all of them contributing to my development along the way."

[Lonk]

It depends who is messing up and what else is happening. If, for some reason, it was JUST JLB and the click, that would have changed the outcome. But since the band was still on, he could come back in later.

But if the drummer messes up the click (and can't VERY quickly figure it all out) then the whole thing is screwed.

True, I was just thinking the singer but you are correct 

[Ben_Jamin]

I am finding it really fascinating how as non-musicians we are acting like we know the intricate aspects of what goes on.

Like how we assume so much of the backing vocals, video productions, and the click tracks.

Even Stads is guilty of this accusation.