DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[MirrorMask]

Since we talked in lenght about what constitutes being "a member of a band", where the public perception of what fans see on stage and in booklets / promo pictures might be different from what is written in a contract that determines sources of income and revenue, I wonder: from a legal point of view, could there be any difference about how Mangini was let go?

Scenario 1, the actual one: the band wished to have Portnoy back, replacing therefore a great dummer and a great guy that had a great tenure and was not at fault for anything, neither in the musical side, nor in the interpersonal one.

Scenario 2, an imaginary one: Mangini underperforms and he is not up to task with his musical duties, so the band wants to replace him 'cause they're dissatisfied with his services, just like Iron Maiden were dissatisfied with Blaze Bayley in early 1999 and would have replaced him anyway even if Bruce didn't come back.

In either of these two scenarios..... whatever happens to the contract Mangini had with the band, and what kind of severance (if any) he gets, would it be any different? my wild guess is no.

[Indiscipline]

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.  "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause".  Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.

But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.

I understand.  I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing".   I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true. 

I really get your point of view, Stadler, and I do because - not although - I had to fire friends for business reasons.

There is nothing leading me to believe there is bad intent on JP's part, while I can't deny there are negative consequences for Mangini. Sadly and fortunately at the same time, both issues can exist.
Not me, but whomever is sad for MM isn't necessarily attributing bad things to JP or MP. Of all the posters I've read here during the years, you are among the few I consider - and admire for it - extremely proficient in appreciating and embracing such nuances and contradictions of life.

[Herrick]

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.

Good grief... are you actually holding out for a transcript of the conversation, or a recording? For crying out loud, man, let it go! How many dead horses are you trying to flog?

Stadler's talking about "firing" as in not doing one's job or behavioral issues.

[gborland]

Stadler's talking about "firing" as in not doing one's job or behavioral issues.

Yeah, but

we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation

It was a private conversation! We will never know the tenor or tone of it. It's none of our business.

[Stadler]

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.  "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause".  Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.

But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.

I understand.  I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing".   I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.

Ok.  Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?

I can see how some people would call it a firing. I wouldn't but some people don't like to get all wishy washy with details and cut to the core.
I don't attribute anything negative to MP or JP, but I could certainly see why some would call JP cold, or MP conniving and calculating.

Heck, MM in that interview basically confirms that he knew MP was circling.

But even that last sentence isn't necessarily accurate.  You used "shark" above, and "circling" there, and both have the connotation of stalking, hunting... aggression.   I guess I'm as guilty as the next guy in terms of letting my feelings into this; I just think it's a shame that so many just assume Portnoy was scheming and conniving and looking to fuck over Mangini to get what he wants like some child.

I'm a very, very lucky man. I have a core group of friends from college that is thick as thieves.  There's about five or seven of us that have been together through thick and thin since 1985.   And while we move away, and move back, and get married and get divorced, and change jobs and what not... there's a bond that doesn't need to go through formalities, that doesn't need to talk every day, AND DOESN'T NEED TO AGREE ON EVERYTHING.  Yet at the end of the day, if I'm in jail at 3 am, and I need bail, I know who I'm going to call.   I'm four months in age from Mike Portnoy, and Petrooch is the same age. They are friends the way my college friends and I are friends.   And I'm sorry, I've been at my current job since 2010 - more or less 13 going on 14 years, hint hint - and I have some close friends here that I love and value.   But if it came down to it, and I had three spots on the rocket ship leaving earth for the safety of Uranus, my Uconn friends have first dibs.   

[Stadler]

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.

Good grief... are you actually holding out for a transcript of the conversation, or a recording? For crying out loud, man, let it go! How many dead horses are you trying to flog?

Absolutely not.  I'm not flogging the dead horse at all; I'm not the one that keeps trying ascribe a certain outcome to this.  I'm open to whatever the fuck happened.  I'm not using words like "fired" and "circling" (sorry, TAC).   

What I know?  There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater.  That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with.  No emotion, no speculation, no recrimination.  I'm not a member of the band; I'm not speculating as to whether Mangini or LaBrie are "happy" or "sad" or anything about this, other than what they say.  Mangini seems good with it, so I'm good with it.  Full stop.

I'm drawing no conclusions on whether Mangini was "screwed", I'm drawing no conclusions on whether Portnoy was "conniving" or "scheming", I'm drawing no conclusions on whether Petrooch "strong armed" the band into going along...  I'm sticking to the facts, ma'am.  That's all.   

[TAC]

But even that last sentence isn't necessarily accurate.  You used "shark" above, and "circling" there, and both have the connotation of stalking, hunting... aggression.   I guess I'm as guilty as the next guy in terms of letting my feelings into this; I just think it's a shame that so many just assume Portnoy was scheming and conniving and looking to fuck over Mangini to get what he wants like some child.

Worded like that it is a bit stronger than what likely happened, as being fired is a bit stronger than it needs to be.
I can't speak to MP's intents. He certainly could've been stalking, hunting. Seems MM at least partly believes that.


You still didn't answer my question...

Ok.  Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?

[Stadler]

But even that last sentence isn't necessarily accurate.  You used "shark" above, and "circling" there, and both have the connotation of stalking, hunting... aggression.   I guess I'm as guilty as the next guy in terms of letting my feelings into this; I just think it's a shame that so many just assume Portnoy was scheming and conniving and looking to fuck over Mangini to get what he wants like some child.

Worded like that it is a bit stronger than what likely happened, as being fired is a bit stronger than it needs to be.
I can't speak to MP's intents. He certainly could've been stalking, hunting. Seems MM at least partly believes that.

Well, I gently disagree with that.  He talks in circles.   This is almost Trumpian; Trump talks for 45 minutes, says absolutely, literally NOTHING, half sentences, half thoughts, then the anti-Trump crowd is like "See!  He admitted to planning and implementing an orchestrated insurrection the likes of which this country has never seen!" Hahaha.

You still didn't answer my question...

Ok.  Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?

Replaced.  Sorry, I thought I answered that.  On day 0 he was the DT drummer and Portnoy was not, and on Day 1, he was not the DT drummer and Portnoy was.  He was replaced.

[MinistroRaven]

FIRED or:

dismiss
discharge
give someone their notice
lay off
let go
throw out
get rid of
oust
depose
make redundant
cashier
sack
give the sack to
axe
kick out
boot out
give someone the boot
give someone the bullet
give someone the push
show someone the door
give someone their cards
give someone the elbow

He is out of the band and replaced.

[Herrick]

What I know?  There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater.  That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with. 

I missed that detail that Mangini knew there were talks about Portnoy rejoining. If Mangini knew this was coming, then that's not as bad as I thought the situation was.

[TAC]

Worded like that it is a bit stronger than what likely happened, as being fired is a bit stronger than it needs to be.
I can't speak to MP's intents. He certainly could've been stalking, hunting. Seems MM at least partly believes that.

Well, I gently disagree with that.  He talks in circles.   This is almost Trumpian; Trump talks for 45 minutes, says absolutely, literally NOTHING, half sentences, half thoughts, then the anti-Trump crowd is like "See!  He admitted to planning and implementing an orchestrated insurrection the likes of which this country has never seen!" Hahaha.

Well, at least you're being gentle.

Replaced.  Sorry, I thought I answered that.  On day 0 he was the DT drummer and Portnoy was not, and on Day 1, he was not the DT drummer and Portnoy was.  He was replaced.

So, we've been in agreement the whole time, you bastard!

[TAC]

What I know?  There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater.  That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with. 

I missed that detail that Mangini knew there were talks about Portnoy rejoining. If Mangini knew this was coming, then that's not as bad as I thought the situation was.

He didn't. He knew that MP wanted back in, but did not realize that the band was about to make a change.

[Lonk]

Replaced.  Sorry, I thought I answered that.  On day 0 he was the DT drummer and Portnoy was not, and on Day 1, he was not the DT drummer and Portnoy was.  He was replaced.

So, we've been in agreement the whole time, you bastard!

Isn't saying "He was replaced" just a more subtle/nicer way of saying someone was fired?

I get it, no one from the band has said MM was fired. But when you are dismissed from your job/duties, that is literally the definition of being fired, and it is literally what happened to MM.

[HOF]

I think we’ve been round about on the definition of “fired,” but I would not say MM was fired based on anything we’ve seen said by the band and MM so far. Fired would have meant they were unhappy with MM or there was something he did to cause them to let him go. From what we can piece together from public statements, it more seem they decided they wanted MP back in the band, which meant MM had to be let go. That’s different in my mind than being fired.

I think what is clear at this point is that MM didn’t just decide to leave the band on his own though, and then they called MP up to bring him back. To the extent you want to characterize any situation that was not voluntarily leaving on his own as being “fired” then I guess you can say that. But I think it was more that he was dismissed because they wanted MP back, and I think that is not a distinction without a difference.

[hefdaddy42]

He was involuntarily relieved of his employment.  Which means fired.

Anything else is a euphemism.  Semantics.  If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine.  But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it.  Because the guy was fired.

[HOF]

He was involuntarily relieved of his employment.  Which means fired.

Anything else is a euphemism.  Semantics.  If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine.  But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it.  Because the guy was fired.

Fired itself is one of many ways of saying relieved of your duties, but one can be relieved of their duties for a number of reasons. I would agree he was relieved of his duties, and that there are semantics at play, but I think anyone who insists on using the word fired is doing so to be incendiary. They are choosing to emphasize that word because of the connotations it carries.

[Stadler]

Look, agree to disagree, but I think HOF has it right.  "Fired" implies the person let go was to be gone regardless - and in some cases, IN SPITE OF - the circumstances, for reasons (called "cause" in the business).   If you guys think Mike Mangini deserved this, or didn't perform up to speed, okay, but I disagree with that.  I think if Portnoy had, say, died instead of left, they could have gone on another 10, 15 years with Mangini and been content.   I think this is a matter of six people for five spots, and Mangini was the odd man out.

If we find out that Mangini was let go because Petrooch and Co. were unhappy with his attitude, his playing, or his incessant bass drum hits, THEN went to Portnoy and said "hey guy, want back in?" I'd feel a lot better about "fired".  I think there's enough evidence to show that that's not likely how it went down.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package.

[Stadler]

Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package.

Free black t-shirts for the next three tours, and a non-exclusive, non-transferable but perpetual license to MorphWiz.   

[bosk1]

He was involuntarily relieved of his employment.  Which means fired.

Anything else is a euphemism.  Semantics.  If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine.  But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it.  Because the guy was fired.

Sorry, but no, this is absolutely incorrect, and anyone that says he was "fired" will be warned and/or banned because it is a blatant mischaracterization of events.

And, again, speculation and discussion is absolutely fine.  Have at it.  But anyone mischaracterizing what happened and stating that as fact is crossing the line.

[MinistroRaven]

I think we’ve been round about on the definition of “fired,” but I would not say MM was fired based on anything we’ve seen said by the band and MM so far. Fired would have meant they were unhappy with MM or there was something he did to cause them to let him go. From what we can piece together from public statements, it more seem they decided they wanted MP back in the band, which meant MM had to be let go. That’s different in my mind than being fired.

I think what is clear at this point is that MM didn’t just decide to leave the band on his own though, and then they called MP up to bring him back. To the extent you want to characterize any situation that was not voluntarily leaving on his own as being “fired” then I guess you can say that. But I think it was more that he was dismissed because they wanted MP back, and I think that is not a distinction without a difference.

When I was in Peru I worked for DIRECTV, one day my supervisor came and told me Jorge I am really happy with your job, you are doing such a great job in the sales department, but we were asked to reduce our staff and since you are the newest in the team, it was decided to let you go.

They were happy with me, I still got fired for whatever reasons.

[cramx3]

He was involuntarily relieved of his employment.  Which means fired.

Anything else is a euphemism.  Semantics.  If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine.  But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it.  Because the guy was fired.

Sorry, but no, this is absolutely incorrect, and anyone that says he was "fired" will be warned and/or banned because it is a blatant mischaracterization of events.

And, again, speculation and discussion is absolutely fine.  Have at it.  But anyone mischaracterizing what happened and stating that as fact is crossing the line.

There's a huge difference between fired and laid off/let go.  And all we know so far implies he was laid off, not fired. Maybe more info could come out like Stadler just suggested but there's no reason to think that he was fired based on what we know.

Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package.

I'd bet a lot of money he was given a package to gracefully exit.  He's yet to say anything bad about this situation and that's likely part of the deal. Quite common really when you are let go from a job, they give you a package and you agree to the terms of the decision (which could include a NDA).  Of course there are emplyoment lawyers who may fight for you in these cases but we haven't heard of any legal battles here to think that's the case either. 

[emtee]

Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.

[cramx3]

Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.

Untethered Angel?

[emtee]

Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.

Untethered Angel?

Haha. Unhooked fish.

[Azyiu]

I just wanted to hear some new sounds, something they had never attempted before. I just wanted to be surprised, instead of the same old same old.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Unthroned

[emtee]

Unthroned

OMG I'm laughing out loud in my office. LOL

[nobloodyname]

Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package.

Free black t-shirts for the next three tours, and a non-exclusive, non-transferable but perpetual license to MorphWiz.

Oh, bravo! BRAVO!

[RodrigoAltaf]

I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.

[TAC]

I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.

I think Bosk hacked Rodrigo's account.

[cramx3]

I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.

[gzarruk]

I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.

That was...




astonishing.

[MinistroRaven]

I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.

That was...




astonishing.

 

[devieira73]

Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.

Excellent!

I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.

 

I still feel bad for Mangini for finding all of this funny, but it is funny...