DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[TAC]

We have heard a bit from both the Mikes, but honestly at this point whom I'm mostly interested in hearing regarding the whole thing is Johnny P.

Yup, but you've heard from the two guys that will at least be straight with you.

Maybe JP will as well.

JP is wonderful at public speaking and never says a word out of line, he's a consumate professional about it. I don't doubt his honesty when he says things but he would be able to be more diplomatic about it, while Portnoy in the Drumeo vid just told it in a simpler and more factual way.

What interests me is "the call". Who made it?
Was it JP?
Was it a full band call?
Was it Frank Soloman?
All of the above?

I like to think that all band members told him. Maybe along with the manager who whould pose as the "HR" of the situation, with the guys telling him on a personal level, and the manager addressing whatever business angle there is to address about his "severance".

Andrea, yeah, I hear you.

[wolfking]

DT is a business.  Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend.  It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.

So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say.  MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer.  WTF?  JLB is a member of the band.  How can one other member decide to oust another? 

I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days. 

[TAC]

DT is a business.  Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend.  It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.

So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say.  MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer.  WTF?  JLB is a member of the band.  How can one other member decide to oust another? 

I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days.

James was so much worse on the last tour when "the band" supposedly had issues with him over 20 years ago. I definitely think it's something to keep our eyes on.

[MinistroRaven]

Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced   

[TAC]

Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced   

I think the JLB/MP thing is a huge wild card going forward. It's one thing to meet up before a show and be all nicey, but what's it going to be like on tour and getting on each other's nerves all over again. In my heart, I am not sure a second album is guaranteed with everyone on board. This is James' meal ticket too, but part of me can see him being all fuck this after the tour. I don't know. I hope it works out, but while the band overlooked James' struggles last year, I'd be shocked if MP does.

[wolfking]

DT is a business.  Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend.  It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.

So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say.  MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer.  WTF?  JLB is a member of the band.  How can one other member decide to oust another? 

I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days.

James was so much worse on the last tour when "the band" supposedly had issues with him over 20 years ago. I definitely think it's something to keep our eyes on.

Exactly.

Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced   

My misses quite likes DT.  Not a fan like me but enjoys watching them and really likes 8VM as an album she listens to on a regular occurrence, so she knows about the guys and whatnot.  When the news broke and I told her that MP was coming back, she replied with, 'Wow, really??!....  I guess that means Labrie is fucked then!' 

[wolfking]

Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced   

I think the JLB/MP thing is a huge wild card going forward. It's one thing to meet up before a show and be all nicey, but what's it going to be like on tour and getting on each other's nerves all over again. In my heart, I am not sure a second album is guaranteed with everyone on board. This is James' meal ticket too, but part of me can see him being all fuck this after the tour. I don't know. I hope it works out, but while the band overlooked James' struggles last year, I'd be shocked if MP does.

Everything you just said is exactly what I mean and I too am skeptical based on the history.

[Mosh]

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

[Indiscipline]

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

An emersion was made.

[Mosh]

Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced   

I think the JLB/MP thing is a huge wild card going forward. It's one thing to meet up before a show and be all nicey, but what's it going to be like on tour and getting on each other's nerves all over again. In my heart, I am not sure a second album is guaranteed with everyone on board. This is James' meal ticket too, but part of me can see him being all fuck this after the tour. I don't know. I hope it works out, but while the band overlooked James' struggles last year, I'd be shocked if MP does.

For sure. The only thing that has me thinking it's not going to be a big deal is that with every piece of information that comes out, I believe more that MP was invited back after Dreamsonic. He's completely aware of JLB's issues - he saw the tour and no doubt follows some of this stuff online. But I'm also sure he didn't get the call from JP and respond with "idk I really want to play with you guys again but JLB is sounding rough." He might just keep his head down on that topic so as not to risk the band breaking up again. I don't think it's a sure thing that the band picks MP over JLB if it comes to that.

I agree there are a lot of moving parts though and the seemingly quick decision making that happened here makes this a pretty wobbly reunion. There are a lot of ways this implodes after an album and a tour imo.

[TAC]

What I would want to know is when was it put to James that MP could/would come back. I'm sure the preshow meetup gave them a chance to clear the air, but that's a long way from having a workable relationship.

[wolfking]

What I would want to know is when was it put to James that MP could/would come back. I'm sure the preshow meetup gave them a chance to clear the air, but that's a long way from having a workable relationship.

Exactly.  Is James really happy with this?  I mean, he recommended MM didn't he from him playing on MullMuzzler and EOP?

As you say, clearing the air with Mike and both being on stage with James singing the way he did last year are two different things.

[Herrick]

Of course there couldn't have been an advance notice. Derek didn't get an advance notice when he played those late '98 acoustic shows when the band already decided to go with Jordan. But Mangini's metaphor is clear, he wonders, like all of us, how long the reunion plans were going on.

I'm sure it all gets lost in translation when you read the written words, but as gracious and lovely he has been about it, perhaps he's been.... "too much" gracious? of course he's very careful with words, but a little bit of melancholy, of sadness.... nothing? he really was like "oh, so they got the original guy back, K, guess I'm gonna do my own stuff"? I mean, that's a great attitude to have, to not be negative or harbor resentment, but 13 years of your carrer are gone and you're just "Ok, I get it, time to move on?" - again, it's cool to have such a positive attitude, but he comes across as "fine, whatever" about it.

Agreed with this. I do admit, I haven't actually heard Mangini actually speak about this so maybe it's a completely different vibe than reading his words.
Edit: I didn't realize you made this exact same point. Sorry for the redundant reply.

DT is a business.  Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend.  It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.

So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say.  MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer.  WTF?  JLB is a member of the band.  How can one other member decide to oust another? 

I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if LaBrie's vocals remain the same.

[Mosh]

I still think JP wouldn't invite Portnoy back without the rest of the band being fully on board. I doubt JLB had to be strongarmed into it.

[TAC]

I still think JP wouldn't invite Portnoy back without the rest of the band being fully on board. I doubt JLB had to be strongarmed into it.

No, I don't think he was strongarmed either. I'm sure JP was tactful, and I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision

I think the point of his fish analogy was questioning how long the MP return was swimming unseen before it came up and revealed itself. How long was it that these guys were thinking 'we're doing this'? Was it while we were on tour possibly? It surprised him because there was indication that anything was wrong....because there wasn't. Quite the opposite, actually. The band was extremely impressed and pleased by his playing based on the nice things they said about him over the years and the fact that he wouldn't be there for 5 albums with an increasing role in the creative process if it weren't going as well as it possibly could given he isn't the founding drummer.

MM took it really well maybe because he doesn't have a choice but I think his response to the Decision is wise. Mike has been interested in stoicism for a while. His response appears to be an embodiment of some stoic principles. To paraphrase a stoic, 'in life sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. As long as we have done our best, there is nothing more we can do and thus we should accept the results with equanimity.' Mike did his best in DT, and if the Decision was really about friendship and family (or even if it was also about business, which I personally believe was in the mix), then there was quite literally nothing else he could have done to keep his job. Thus, a stoic might say, there is no reason to be anything other than composed and move on.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't think there will be anything to see in the MP/JLB chemistry going forward. MP is just thrilled to be back and knows he wouldn't be back without an expectation that the boat is sailing towards the sunset with everyone on it.

I am sure as a professional and a great musician it will disturb him if JLB cannot deliver, but I just don't think we're going to see any of that impact the band's inner workings or spill out into public. He is not going to create waves this time because this is simply not the most important thing to him right now. Similarly, JP has shown absolutely zero appetite to do anything about the state of the vocal department. It's almost as though while part of the fanbase was up in arms about JLB's struggles, JP was busy thinking about how this drummer replacement is going to go down.

[Herrick]

The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision

Yikes. I agree with you but it's probably a bad idea to open up that can of worms again.

And I agree with most of your following post too. I mean...I don't know if Petrucci or anyone else in the band has tried to address the vocal problems but it really doesn't appear as if they have. I find it very interesting that getting Portnoy back was a bigger concern (seemingly) than the vocal issues.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

^i was at work when the story broke this afternoon so I could not chime in until now. Not trying to stir the pot.

[gzarruk]

The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision

Yikes. I agree with you but it's probably a bad idea to open up that can of worms again.

And I agree with most of your following post too. I mean...I don't know if Petrucci or anyone else in the band has tried to address the vocal problems but it really doesn't appear as if they have. I find it very interesting that getting Portnoy back was a bigger concern (seemingly) than the vocal issues.

That was my first thought when Portnoy's return was announced, but that didn't go well here either.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

did anyone see this article posted today on (the shitty) site blabbermouth? https://blabbermouth.net/news/ex-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-says-he-had-no-advance-notice-on-mike-portnoys-return-it-was-immediate

[Orbert]

That's what we've been talking about for the last few pages.

[Herrick]

Yeah. Schurftkut posted the link.

[MirrorMask]

I agree with the latest posts about JLB and MP being able to co-exist.

Will it all be roses and kisses every single day? I don't think so. Will there be occasional circumstances, and details where they would be slightly dissatisfied with the other on a personal or professional level? might be. Heck, it happens in all bands and in all marriages even. But this is not a Gillian / Blackmore situation, the guys are older, wiser and also smart. They know it's the last phase of their carrer. They know the number of albums they can still do is finite. And they know the most classic lineup is the one that has to reach the finish line. JLB knows that the DT brand is strong with Portnoy and Portnoy knows that DT will have a stronger end of carreer with the "almost original" singer rather than just a random dude spotted on YouTube or whatever. They will all get along just fine.

[SeRoX]

If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.

I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.

[wolfking]

If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.

I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.

I think they have to.  They need to do more of it IMO. 

[nikatapi]

If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.

I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.

That would be great and reasonable. It would be so much better than james struggling to reach notes he doesn't have anymore.

[MinistroRaven]

If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.

I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.

That would be great and reasonable. It would be so much better than james struggling to reach notes he doesn't have anymore.

More so, when he has already acknowledged that he can’t sing anymore like in the past.

[Stadler]

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.  "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause".  Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.

Of course there couldn't have been an advance notice. Derek didn't get an advance notice when he played those late '98 acoustic shows when the band already decided to go with Jordan. But Mangini's metaphor is clear, he wonders, like all of us, how long the reunion plans were going on.

I'm sure it all gets lost in translation when you read the written words, but as gracious and lovely he has been about it, perhaps he's been.... "too much" gracious? of course he's very careful with words, but a little bit of melancholy, of sadness.... nothing? he really was like "oh, so they got the original guy back, K, guess I'm gonna do my own stuff"? I mean, that's a great attitude to have, to not be negative or harbor resentment, but 13 years of your carrer are gone and you're just "Ok, I get it, time to move on?" - again, it's cool to have such a positive attitude, but he comes across as "fine, whatever" about it.

Why?  He's also said repeatedly that he gets some emotional benefit from teaching and having students and he's had to put that aside for a while now.  Why can't this be a relief of sorts?   I guess if I have to take him at his word that "he knew nothing" of this, then I have to take him at his word that it's "positive and move forward".  We can't keep projecting our own feelings onto him when it suits us.

[TAC]

The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision

I think the point of his fish analogy was questioning how long the MP return was swimming unseen before it came up and revealed itself. How long was it that these guys were thinking 'we're doing this'? Was it while we were on tour possibly? It surprised him because there was indication that anything was wrong....because there wasn't. Quite the opposite, actually. The band was extremely impressed and pleased by his playing based on the nice things they said about him over the years and the fact that he wouldn't be there for 5 albums with an increasing role in the creative process if it weren't going as well as it possibly could given he isn't the founding drummer.

MM took it really well maybe because he doesn't have a choice but I think his response to the Decision is wise. Mike has been interested in stoicism for a while. His response appears to be an embodiment of some stoic principles. To paraphrase a stoic, 'in life sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. As long as we have done our best, there is nothing more we can do and thus we should accept the results with equanimity.' Mike did his best in DT, and if the Decision was really about friendship and family (or even if it was also about business, which I personally believe was in the mix), then there was quite literally nothing else he could have done to keep his job. Thus, a stoic might say, there is no reason to be anything other than composed and move on.

I think MM feels like the fish had been swimming/circling for about 5 years. I also think he knew it could be a possibility of MP rejoining at some point, but he was not expecting it.
This is my understanding.

I don't think there will be anything to see in the MP/JLB chemistry going forward. MP is just thrilled to be back and knows he wouldn't be back without an expectation that the boat is sailing towards the sunset with everyone on it.

I am sure as a professional and a great musician it will disturb him if JLB cannot deliver, but I just don't think we're going to see any of that impact the band's inner workings or spill out into public. He is not going to create waves this time because this is simply not the most important thing to him right now. Similarly, JP has shown absolutely zero appetite to do anything about the state of the vocal department. It's almost as though while part of the fanbase was up in arms about JLB's struggles, JP was busy thinking about how this drummer replacement is going to go down.

That is awfully optimistic. I hope you're right.

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.  "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause".  Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.

But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.

[Stadler]

As they said many times in The Godfather, it's only business; it's not personal.  But that sucks.  Making music with other people is as personal as it gets.  It's a bond.  Dream Theater themselves used to speak of it being like a kind of marriage with five people all trying to compromise and cooperate.  But Derek Sherinian was not the original keyboard player, therefore the others could decide to can him and get someone else.  JLB was not the original singer, therefore he would've been gone if MP had convinced JP to pull the trigger.  And now MM is out because JP wanted MP back.

Notwithstanding that some of that is still speculation, but why can't it be both business and personal?   And even if we think the "business" is not that big a deal with a band like Dream Theater, as I noted in a previous post, sometimes the personal is multidimensional.   We're all looking at this from Mangini's perspective - how could John DO this to such a nice guy!! - but we seem to be forgetting that bringing back the guy that you played school janitor closets with, that you figured out how to use a Tascam 4-track with, that you toured the world playing shitty clubs with, that maybe you banged groupies with (or whatever they did back then at Berkelee), you broke bread with at every holiday, that your wife and his wife are best friends, that your kids are also best buds...  Bringing Portnoy back is, on some levels the MOST personal of all moves.   

I don't know about some of you but I have friends, and I have "FRIENDS".  I'm close with some people here, and we sometimes text about personal, meaningful things, and many of them have been solid as rocks when I went through some bad shit (losing my parents). And it means a lot.  More than I can ever say or repay.    But I can recall, about a year ago, I was at dinner with some friends from college and one of them pulled me aside and whispered in my ear "Dog, I've been there, and we're here for you hell or high water", and knowing that we've been through everything - births, deaths, divorces, marriages, more divorces, rehabs, moves, firings, hirings, etc. - for the better part of forty years, is not the same thing.  It's just not.  I don't think we can, from the outside, ever understand the real depth and dynamic between two people so closely intertwined like John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy.   From the standpoint of 40 years of FAMILIAL bonds, 12 years is like a blink of an eye.  I don't mean to minimize the shorter relationships, not at all, but just saying, to compare them is fraught with peril.

[gborland]

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.

Good grief... are you actually holding out for a transcript of the conversation, or a recording? For crying out loud, man, let it go! How many dead horses are you trying to flog?

[Stadler]

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.  "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause".  Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.

But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.

I understand.  I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing".   I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true. 

[hefdaddy42]

did anyone see this article posted today on (the shitty) site blabbermouth? https://blabbermouth.net/news/ex-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-says-he-had-no-advance-notice-on-mike-portnoys-return-it-was-immediate

Did anyone read the last several pages?

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.  "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause".  Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.

But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.

I understand.  I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing".   I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.

The only "bad" thing attributed is that they removed from Mangini his primary income stream, against his personal wishes.  Which is true.

[TAC]

I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. 

It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.  "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause".  Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.

But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.

I understand.  I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing".   I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.

Ok.  Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?

I can see how some people would call it a firing. I wouldn't but some people don't like to get all wishy washy with details and cut to the core.
I don't attribute anything negative to MP or JP, but I could certainly see why some would call JP cold, or MP conniving and calculating.

Heck, MM in that interview basically confirms that he knew MP was circling.