DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[SwedishGoose]

It might be fine for Dream Theater but it definitely will not be fine for The Neal Morse Band....

For me to see this change as positive the next album have better be a terriffic masterpiece.

[MirrorMask]

What I'm worried for the MM... loyalists (not sure if the best term, it sounds ironic but isn't) is about eventually finding out how this change was handled internally. I don't think we ever will (or should), honestly.

It's a different band, but Slipknot has gone through many dramatic lineup changes in recent years (letting go of Joey Jordison, Chris Fehn and Jay Weinberg, losing Paul Gray (RIP) and Craig Jones) and these events have been explained in much vaguer terms than the MM->MP switch. A lot of fans also feel like they are owed more details and a proper explanation, and whenever those details have surfaced outside of the band's control (like the court documents for when Chris Fehn sued the group), it's only made the general picture worse. The band is weathering through the bad press and ultimately the backstage stuff doesn't really matter to anyone on the outside.

With DT, we have the benefit of all parties opting for a cordial route. I can absolutely understand the disappointment or even heartbreak of seeing a beloved lineup change, and this sentiment should be respected. What I'm saying is this might be the most details we ever get about the switch, barring a more inquisitive approach in an interview or personal interaction that could not only put the band members (current and former) in a delicate spot and at the risk of being misinterpreted, but wouldn't bring anything good to the person asking the question or to the people waiting for these answers.

My bet (and this is personal, speculatory and whatnot) is that the change, while exciting for those who wanted it, took place in a pretty boring and safe fashion. The points in time where JP got the idea, started talking seriously to MP about it, brought it up with the rest of the group, and MM was informed are ultimately meaningless.

Plus (and this has nothing to do with who he was in terms of active contributions to the group), I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".

Great post! 

[Buddyhunter1]

Isn't ADTOE a better album than BL&SL?

Well, no, but I agree with your point nonetheless.

[Stadler]

Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.

Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. 

Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it.  The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part.  Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album.  If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings.  It carries everything else, I will admit.

I'm with you; I think O8 is a special (in a good way) album.  It's number five on my list, but 1 through 4 are God-tier so...

[gborland]

Octavarium: the title track is stellar, 10/10 peak DT. The rest of the album is boring filler.

[Stadler]

We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.

Can you see into the future?  This is a crazy statement.

I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.

But then either one will just be able to say 'I told you so.'  I know you're basing that statement on the content of the albums you're mentioning but it's been a long time, I don't think its fair to exclusively say that you are going to be 'disappointed in the music reverting back stylistically.'  We just don't know that, the band wouldn't even know that as nothing as we know has been created.

but yes, touche, the final product will answer all the speculation.  I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.

Allow me to clarify, apologies. DT will sound like DT at the end of the day because it is a guitar driven band and so long as JP is there I don't anticipate a huge transformation going from View to DT16. What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade. You're not going to get MP coming in with a seed that blossoms into the Alien or Pale Blue Dot. And I get that most fans aren't listening for that but I was...even as a guitar player. The ideas, patterns, beats etc in 2024 are all at risk of sounding exactly like they did in 2009. I am having a hard time getting excited by this. For me, the nostalgia about all of this does absolutely zero.

There is nothing more I would love in my musical life than to get another 3-4 albums of amazing music from DT, so I am really going into this with an open mind. However, I suspect that on DT16 if I am in love with it, JP will have ripped off the tank top and dropped an elbow from the top row. Will it be because MP came in with some cool and interesting beat/pattern? I hope so but I am having a hard time seeing that right now. On View I felt JP did a great job but it was not anything extraordinary. It was Mangini's contributions that added that extra 5%-10% to take it from a good album to a very good album. That's the difference a drummer can make for me.

That's funny; we're on the opposite sides of this, but the rationale is the same.  Portnoy is one of a handful of drummers - Peart and Collins are the others that come to mind - that I listen to just for his playing.   I totally acknowledge Mangini's physical skills, but he MINUSED that 5-10% for me.   I missed the contributions from Portnoy.  And that's not to argue, but simply to point out that we're in "opinion territory" now so none of this has any meaning whatsoever.

[Stadler]

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

Over 8,436,712 bass drum beats per measure?   ABSOLUTELY.  All day and twice on Saturday.

[Stadler]

I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.

This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?

When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote:

Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.

That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What?

I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?

Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.

Who got sent packing? What did I miss?

[Setlist Scotty]

I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?

As Stads and others have said, there's a difference between reacting to the change itself and the theories as to *why* or *how* it happened. And if you were just reacting to the change itself, that's understandable. But what you posted above is that you are reacting to theories of why or how it happened, and really, that's not necessarily fair to the band.

And as for your comments about the MP "warriors" as they were branded, there were some outspoken and obnoxious ones that continued to loudly bang that drum, but they were few and far between. The vast majority of us accepted the change, perhaps somewhat reluctantly at first, but we still accepted the change and didn't make a lot of noise about it. And in fact a lot of us came to enjoy what DT did since that MP left. I'd say several of the MM albums fit squarely somewhere in the middle of their catalog for me personally. That said, you're more than welcome to express disappointment, just as many did 13 years ago. Just try to separate fact from hypothesis.

Regarding the whole "family" thing, an (imperfect) analogy that I just thought of might help. You have 5 brothers who live in the family home that their late parents left for them. They cover the costs together, and then one of the brothers wants to move out and live elsewhere. While irritated by the loss, the other 4 brothers move on and welcome a close cousin to live with them in their brother's place, and he always serves as a great roommate but never fills all the roles that their brother had. Eventually the brothers come around to the fact that they miss their brother, and since he's at the end of the lease at where he's living, they discuss having him move back in with them. They also consider that their cousin, while impacted, has enough funds in the bank and opportunities to easily find another place to live, and so they ask him to leave so that their brother can return home. It may seem like a bit of a jerk move to those outside the family, but everyone in the family understands and is cool with it. So the cousin is still family, but the connection with the brother is closer and deeper.
 
 

I almost wish MP was making another album with the NMB, since they are amazing in their own way. Right up there with DT imo. I'm worried the NMB is gonna suffer from this and may not make any more albums in the foreseeable  future. They could do it without Portnoy, but it wouldn't be the same since he's such a big part of the creative process.

Has there been any indication that the NMB has been put on ice? While I can see the amount of work becoming a bit more sporadic, I doubt it would be that much. After all, it seems that both TA and FC are now done, as well as SoA. So outside of DT, I would expect MP will probably largely split his time between TWD and NMB.
 
 

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
 
 

Octavarium: the title track is stellar, 10/10 peak DT. The rest of the album is boring filler.

Well you're wrong there Graham, but I love ya anyway!   

[Stadler]

Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being.   Seriously.   The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.   

What kind of life do I lead?   Am I some sort of freak?  Do I need mental wellness consultations (therapy)?  I mean, I know I do, but still.  Why do I ask these questions?

My world is not black and white.  My world is not constant.  My world isn't the same now as it was 12 years ago, or 37 years ago.  My world doesn't have fixed priorities that never waver, never come in conflict with other priorities, and never create difficult choices with no clear answer.   My world isn't driven by non-negotiable deal-breakers, as much as I would sometimes wish that it was.  My world isn't me unfailingly at my best self at all times, nor is it me predictably at my worst.

My world is a continuum.  My world changes, sometimes day-to-day.  My world is VERY different today than it was even two years ago, let alone 12 and 37 years ago.  My world has multiple priorities - my physical health, my mental wellness, my families physical health, my family's mental wellness, our collective economic wellness, our collective happiness - and sometimes they conflict.   Sometimes they create difficult choices.   Sometimes there's no great answer, only the answer that spreads the least amount of pain/hurt.  My world is filled with compromise and accommodation.  My world is me ever-trying to be my best-self, but being human, making mistakes and being imperfect and sometimes inconsistent.

And you know what? NONE of those things are for anyone else to judge, or critique, or, necessarily, to know ANYTHING about unless I choose to tell them, and even then, they only get what I choose to tell them. I can't stop others from speculating, but they do so at their own risk, and at their own peril. THEY'RE NOT ME.  They can sympathize, even EMPATHIZE, but they are not feeling MY emotions when I feel them and why.

I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once.   And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.

[Stadler]

I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?

Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.

Who actually said that, though?   I think I've been very respectful about understanding that people have emtotions and feelings they are dealing with.  I don't think saying "look, maybe, just maybe, you're basing an emotion on  something that hasn't ever and never will happen" isn't the same as "shut up and smile, bitches!" 

There's more than skepticism here, though, and surely you can see that.

[nikatapi]

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

Over 8,436,712 bass drum beats per measure?   ABSOLUTELY.  All day and twice on Saturday.

Lol, if anything, MM has been much more restrained than MP in his drumming (despite the complexity)

[Stadler]

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

Over 8,436,712 bass drum beats per measure?   ABSOLUTELY.  All day and twice on Saturday.

Lol, if anything, MM has been much more restrained than MP in his drumming (despite the complexity)

What's that quote?  Writing about music is like fishing about bicycles, or some shit?   It's hard to put into words.   But I listen, I hear it, and I know what you say is not wrong, but it FEELS different.  I've actually asked myself, "why does that passage with, say, Portnoy's double bass, give me chills and that other passage, by Mangini, feels jarring?"  I don't have an answer for you. I really don't.  I know I've written in the past that it seems like Portnoy has a knack for playing 11/17 time and having it sound like 4/4, and Mangini has a knack for playing 4/4 and having it sound like 11/17 time, but that's not really right either.  I don't know.  I just know that it's taken me a LOT longer to connect with the music of the MM era of DT than it has the MP era, and not all of it DID connect.

[HOF]

Everyone is different. Some people will prefer the newer stuff with MM, some people will prefer the middle stuff with MP, some people will prefer the classic run up through SFAM/SDOIT

I'm in that last camp. I don't have any attachment to the MM era, but I also don't have any interest in DT continuing the ToT through BC&SL run either. But for some people, that would be awesome.

Everyone is entitled to feel how they feel about MP coming back. But I don't think anyone should feel too confident of what the next era of DT will be like. We'll find out when we find out.

What I am personally hoping for is a return to something that moves me in the way the run through SDOIT did. Doesn't necessarily need to sound like those albums, I'd just love to have another album I enjoy from the band that was *the* band for me for a number of years.

[nobloodyname]

Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being.   Seriously.   The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.

I've snipped the post to just the first paragraph so you'd know what I'm responding to without quoting the whole thing.

Yours is one of the best posts I've read in the 30 years I've been on the internet. It helps me understand how and why I feel the way I do about so much in life. Thank you.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

What I'm worried for the MM... loyalists (not sure if the best term, it sounds ironic but isn't) is about eventually finding out how this change was handled internally. I don't think we ever will (or should), honestly.

It's a different band, but Slipknot has gone through many dramatic lineup changes in recent years (letting go of Joey Jordison, Chris Fehn and Jay Weinberg, losing Paul Gray (RIP) and Craig Jones) and these events have been explained in much vaguer terms than the MM->MP switch. A lot of fans also feel like they are owed more details and a proper explanation, and whenever those details have surfaced outside of the band's control (like the court documents for when Chris Fehn sued the group), it's only made the general picture worse. The band is weathering through the bad press and ultimately the backstage stuff doesn't really matter to anyone on the outside.

With DT, we have the benefit of all parties opting for a cordial route. I can absolutely understand the disappointment or even heartbreak of seeing a beloved lineup change, and this sentiment should be respected. What I'm saying is this might be the most details we ever get about the switch, barring a more inquisitive approach in an interview or personal interaction that could not only put the band members (current and former) in a delicate spot and at the risk of being misinterpreted, but wouldn't bring anything good to the person asking the question or to the people waiting for these answers.

My bet (and this is personal, speculatory and whatnot) is that the change, while exciting for those who wanted it, took place in a pretty boring and safe fashion. The points in time where JP got the idea, started talking seriously to MP about it, brought it up with the rest of the group, and MM was informed are ultimately meaningless.

Plus (and this has nothing to do with who he was in terms of active contributions to the group), I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".

Nice post! I think Mangini deserves a lot of credit for always doing whatever Dream Theater needed, even if that meant being less creatively involved than he otherwise would have preferred.

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

What I didn't realize until Portnoy returned was just how many people equated Portnoy with Dream Theater. There's been a lot of discourse over the past month, and while some of it has been related to songwriting, I feel like just as much if not more has revolved around the classic lineup being back together and the "real" Dream Theater rising from the ashes. It's not even about the music for a lot of fans, it's about the nostalgia, which I'm not saying is wrong, but I don't care about that stuff as much. I personally think the band really hit its stride over the past couple of albums, and there's no guarantee the next album will be any better than their recent output (although it certainly could be, and I hope that to be the case!).

[Stadler]

Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being.   Seriously.   The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.

I've snipped the post to just the first paragraph so you'd know what I'm responding to without quoting the whole thing.

Yours is one of the best posts I've read in the 30 years I've been on the internet. It helps me understand how and why I feel the way I do about so much in life. Thank you.

You're welcome; thank you for the kind words. It means a lot.

[WilliamMunny]

@Stadler

Gonna echo a couple others… that long post a few posts back was pretty spectacular. You managed to put into words a ton of disparate things I personally feel very strongly. Thanks for that.

[HOF]

I too echo the positive sentiments regarding Stadler's post.

[hefdaddy42]

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.

Similar, yes.  But not the same.  JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums.  He had only ever played with MP and JP before.

It's the closest example, but it's not the same.

[hefdaddy42]

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.

Similar, yes.  But not the same.  JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums.  He had only ever played with MP and JP before in any depth; except for auditioning for DT and playing at the Foundations Forum.  He wasn't a member, and created no music with the band.

It's the closest example, but it's not the same.

[MinistroRaven]

Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being.   Seriously.   The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.   

What kind of life do I lead?   Am I some sort of freak?  Do I need mental wellness consultations (therapy)?  I mean, I know I do, but still.  Why do I ask these questions?

My world is not black and white.  My world is not constant.  My world isn't the same now as it was 12 years ago, or 37 years ago.  My world doesn't have fixed priorities that never waver, never come in conflict with other priorities, and never create difficult choices with no clear answer.   My world isn't driven by non-negotiable deal-breakers, as much as I would sometimes wish that it was.  My world isn't me unfailingly at my best self at all times, nor is it me predictably at my worst.

My world is a continuum.  My world changes, sometimes day-to-day.  My world is VERY different today than it was even two years ago, let alone 12 and 37 years ago.  My world has multiple priorities - my physical health, my mental wellness, my families physical health, my family's mental wellness, our collective economic wellness, our collective happiness - and sometimes they conflict.   Sometimes they create difficult choices.   Sometimes there's no great answer, only the answer that spreads the least amount of pain/hurt.  My world is filled with compromise and accommodation.  My world is me ever-trying to be my best-self, but being human, making mistakes and being imperfect and sometimes inconsistent.

And you know what? NONE of those things are for anyone else to judge, or critique, or, necessarily, to know ANYTHING about unless I choose to tell them, and even then, they only get what I choose to tell them. I can't stop others from speculating, but they do so at their own risk, and at their own peril. THEY'RE NOT ME.  They can sympathize, even EMPATHIZE, but they are not feeling MY emotions when I feel them and why.

I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once.   And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.

GREAT POST!!!
Thank you for taking the time to put ALL that into words. 

[Revenge319]

Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being.   Seriously.   The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.

Your whole post conveys how I feel but couldn't possibly put into words this well, mainly about life in general but also regarding this whole DT situation. I hope that one day I can express myself as honestly, intelligently, and confidently as you do, and I appreciate everything you bring to this forum. Thank you, Stadler.

[pg1067]

We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.

Can you see into the future?  This is a crazy statement.

Which is crazier:  assuming the music will revert to what it was in the late 2000s or thinking Octavarium was a mediocre album?!

I know I've written in the past that it seems like Portnoy has a knack for playing 11/17 time and having it sound like 4/4, and Mangini has a knack for playing 4/4 and having it sound like 11/17 time, but that's not really right either.  I don't know.  I just know that it's taken me a LOT longer to connect with the music of the MM era of DT than it has the MP era, and not all of it DID connect.

I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well.  I think it's as simple as this:  it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that.  Hyperbole alert:  "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."

All that said, AFAIK, they're both "just drummers" (bracing for impact with that one).  It's the writing and arranging that is where I think MM may have been a bit lacking.  We shall see.

[crystalstars17]

I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once.   And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.

Stadler, I admire your grace in giving the benefit of the doubt. That post was full of clarity.

[Stadler]

I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once.   And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.

Stadler, I admire your grace in giving the benefit of the doubt. That post was full of clarity.

Thank you kindly; it's probably just age.

[Stadler]

Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being.   Seriously.   The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.

Your whole post conveys how I feel but couldn't possibly put into words this well, mainly about life in general but also regarding this whole DT situation. I hope that one day I can express myself as honestly, intelligently, and confidently as you do, and I appreciate everything you bring to this forum. Thank you, Stadler.

Thank you for that.  I appreciate it.

[emtee]

Some interesting reading over the last several pages.

My final thoughts on the change are this; If everything in DT land had been ideal--from interpersonal relationships, creative energy, butts in seats, income levels, various trend lines, etc.,--wouldn't you think everything would have stayed exactly the same as it had been? Something(s), however major or minor, drove this change. What those things are, we will likely never know.

[bosk1]

If everything in DT land had been ideal--from interpersonal relationships, creative energy, butts in seats, income levels, various trend lines, etc.,--wouldn't you think everything would have stayed exactly the same as it had been? Something(s), however major or minor, drove this change.

No, not necessarily.  As Stadler much more eloquently put it, things like this are complicated, and trying to put it into a box--ANY box--is likely to be selling that short.  But even if things were perfect, that's not to say that some might not have felt that it could be perfecter if there was just a strong feeling of "now that I've spent time with this guy who was our brother during those formative years, it just reminds me how much I really, really miss doing what we did with that person, and I think I'd like to do that again while there's still time before we all ride off into the sunset." 

[ZirconBlue]

I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well.  I think it's as simple as this:  it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that.  Hyperbole alert:  "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."

I don't think this is accurate.  I think that MM's goal, always, is to accent and support the other parts of the song.  I have a long history with Drum & Bugle Corps, and MM seems to write his parts in a similar way as Drum Corps arrangers do for the drumline:  Except when being explicitly featured, the drums support and add weight to what the rest of the ensemble is doing.  JR's doing a fast ascending run?  MM will support that with a matching ascending run.  Where he gets into really complicated parts is when he is supporting multiple parts at once, where JP, JR, and/or JM are playing different things.  Although MM's parts are often more complicated, MP parts are more often "flashy" or "showing off", to me.  Personally, I think they're both great, if different, drummers.

[hefdaddy42]

I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well.  I think it's as simple as this:  it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that.  Hyperbole alert:  "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."

I don't think this is accurate.  I think that MM's goal, always, is to accent and support the other parts of the song.  I have a long history with Drum & Bugle Corps, and MM seems to write his parts in a similar way as Drum Corps arrangers do for the drumline:  Except when being explicitly featured, the drums support and add weight to what the rest of the ensemble is doing.  JR's doing a fast ascending run?  MM will support that with a matching ascending run.  Where he gets into really complicated parts is when he is supporting multiple parts at once, where JP, JR, and/or JM are playing different things.  Although MM's parts are often more complicated, MP parts are more often "flashy" or "showing off", to me.  Personally, I think they're both great, if different, drummers.

I think your assessment is 100% accurate.

[Mosh]

There are some wild takes in this thread lately.  I had a longer reply typed up but honestly there is so much to chew on here that it felt impossible to come up with a focused take. One thing that has been swimming in my brain throughout the weekend though:

Maybe it's a minority opinion, but I actually don't feel like A Dramatic Turn of Events would have been all that different with Portnoy in the band. Yes the previous two albums were on the heavier side, but DT had never been known to stick with the same sound for too long and I think there would have been a bit of a push to go in a lighter direction anyway (also I know they were talking about doing a concept album, imo something like ADTOE would have carried a big prog rock concept thing better than the sound of BC&SL anyway). Obviously you'd have more Portnoy backing vocals, but honestly there are plenty of heavy moments on that album (BITS, Build Me Up Break Me Down) and the core writing group is more or less in tact. I'm not saying you would have gotten the same songs, it probably would have been a bolder album (ADTOE was by design a little more "traditional DT") but I think the musical direction would have been similar.

So I think the fear that Portnoy's return means we're going to get the unmade followup to BC&SL is not quite right and actually kind of does a disservice to the amount of musical growth that we've seen from DT and Portnoy in the last decade. I mean, Portnoy did all those Neal Morse albums, Winery Dogs, Flying Colors, he's done a pretty big variety of music since leaving and will bring that artistic evolution back to DT. Dream Theater has done a bunch of different things as well, but at the same time the core sound hasn't really changed since MP left. Honestly I fully expect the album to build off of a lot of what they were doing on View. Songs like the title track, Transcending Time, Awaken the Master feel like things Portnoy could contribute to artistically. I don't really expect the band to do a 180 in that regard.

[wolfking]

Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could.  Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....

[HOF]

Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could.  Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....

Yes, but the click tracks!

[Architeuthis]

@ Setlist Scotty,  It seems that the NMB's future is uncertain. Not only MP being back in DT (which will likely have a very busy schedule), but now Eric Gillette getting his new band Temic off the ground. Only time will tell, but it's not likely that we will hear any new NMB material for quite some time.