DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[Orbert]

...the final product will answer all the speculation.  I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.

This is me.

[wolfking]

Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.

[TAC]

Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.

Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. 

[wolfking]

Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.

Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. 

Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it.  The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part.  Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album.  If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings.  It carries everything else, I will admit.

[TAC]

Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.

Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. 

Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it.  The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part.  Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album.  If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings.  It carries everything else, I will admit.

I enjoy all of their albums a lot. Without the title track though, 8V is pretty pedestrian.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.

Can you see into the future?  This is a crazy statement.

I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.

But then either one will just be able to say 'I told you so.'  I know you're basing that statement on the content of the albums you're mentioning but it's been a long time, I don't think its fair to exclusively say that you are going to be 'disappointed in the music reverting back stylistically.'  We just don't know that, the band wouldn't even know that as nothing as we know has been created.

but yes, touche, the final product will answer all the speculation.  I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.

Allow me to clarify, apologies. DT will sound like DT at the end of the day because it is a guitar driven band and so long as JP is there I don't anticipate a huge transformation going from View to DT16. What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade. You're not going to get MP coming in with a seed that blossoms into the Alien or Pale Blue Dot. And I get that most fans aren't listening for that but I was...even as a guitar player. The ideas, patterns, beats etc in 2024 are all at risk of sounding exactly like they did in 2009. I am having a hard time getting excited by this. For me, the nostalgia about all of this does absolutely zero.

There is nothing more I would love in my musical life than to get another 3-4 albums of amazing music from DT, so I am really going into this with an open mind. However, I suspect that on DT16 if I am in love with it, JP will have ripped off the tank top and dropped an elbow from the top row. Will it be because MP came in with some cool and interesting beat/pattern? I hope so but I am having a hard time seeing that right now. On View I felt JP did a great job but it was not anything extraordinary. It was Mangini's contributions that added that extra 5%-10% to take it from a good album to a very good album. That's the difference a drummer can make for me.

[wolfking]

Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.

Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. 

Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it.  The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part.  Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album.  If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings.  It carries everything else, I will admit.

I enjoy all of their albums a lot. Without the title track though, 8V is pretty pedestrian.

Besides my take and like I alluded too, I can understand using that term here.

[wolfking]

We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.

Can you see into the future?  This is a crazy statement.

I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.

But then either one will just be able to say 'I told you so.'  I know you're basing that statement on the content of the albums you're mentioning but it's been a long time, I don't think its fair to exclusively say that you are going to be 'disappointed in the music reverting back stylistically.'  We just don't know that, the band wouldn't even know that as nothing as we know has been created.

but yes, touche, the final product will answer all the speculation.  I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.

Allow me to clarify, apologies. DT will sound like DT at the end of the day because it is a guitar driven band and so long as JP is there I don't anticipate a huge transformation going from View to DT16. What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade. You're not going to get MP coming in with a seed that blossoms into the Alien or Pale Blue Dot. And I get that most fans aren't listening for that but I was...even as a guitar player. The ideas, patterns, beats etc in 2024 are all at risk of sounding exactly like they did in 2009. I am having a hard time getting excited by this. For me, the nostalgia about all of this does absolutely zero.

There is nothing more I would love in my musical life than to get another 3-4 albums of amazing music from DT, so I am really going into this with an open mind. However, I suspect that on DT16 if I am in love with it, JP will have ripped off the tank top and dropped an elbow from the top row. Will it be because MP came in with some cool and interesting beat/pattern? I hope so but I am having a hard time seeing that right now. On View I felt JP did a great job but it was not anything extraordinary. It was Mangini's contributions that added that extra 5%-10% to take it from a good album to a very good album. That's the difference a drummer can make for me.

Fair points.  I think it all comes back to how the individual sees the progression through the last 5 albums.  I just personally haven't been blown away on a whole from the 5 albums.  Plus, I personally don't think MM has done anything no other drummer could have done (outside the technical aspects I mean).

Basically though, if DT really wanted MP back (which is obvious), then who are we to say anything, I just want them in a state where they can create some great music.  If having MP back makes them happier, more confident and in a place to create even better music then I'm all in.

[Dream Team]

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

[wolfking]

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

It's not that I prefer that, it's just what they have done with MM hasn't been all that interesting to me.

The only MP vocal part I don't like is ANTR, I like his contributions everywhere else.

[Cool Chris]

I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.

I just want them in a state where they can create some great music.  If having MP back makes them happier, more confident and in a place to create even better music then I'm all in.

This is where I ended up. I do think a band needs a level of continuity and consistency, which DT has maintained since their inception. I honestly can't imagine being a fan of Yes from the beginning with all the line-up changes.

[Setlist Scotty]

What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade.

OK, so by that reasoning, let's consider BCaSL and the album they did 12 years before that, FII. Are they the same? Not at all. Sure you can say that the label was involved and/or that DS was the keyboardist. So let's compare BCaSL to the album they did 10 years before, SFaM. Same lineup as BCaSL. Were those albums the same or even remotely close? Nope. And I'd say the same is true for every album from that lineup, with the exception of SC and BCaSL, where BCaSL felt very much like a continuation of the general style that SC was in. But even then, there were some differences.

In any case, the point stands that where the band is now, 13 years after MP left, is not the same as before he left, so it reasonable to believe that while there will be some stylistic differences between AVFtTotW and the new one, it's highly unlikely you're suddenly gonna see a return to exactly where they left off with BCaSL. And even if they did, after doing two similar albums consecutively, chances are the direction of the 11th album, had MP stayed in 2010, would have been in a different direction to SC and BCaSL anyway. So there's no sense in speculating ad nauseum over what the next one may sound like because we're still roughly a year away from being able to answer that.

[wolfking]

So there's no sense in speculating ad nauseum over what the next one may sound like because we're still roughly a year away from being able to answer that.

Exactly, it really serves no purpose.  I feel bad for those that aren't happy with the what's happened, but again, literally nothing you can do about it.

[Progmaniac1988]

I think DT is just one of those bands that have so many fans with big personalities and preferences that a portion will always be unhappy. This didn’t just happen with MP returning. It Happened when He initially quit. That man got SO much shit from his fans. Some people were borderline psychotic to the guy. MM had a very hard time when he first joined. At the time 80% would not accept the loss of Portnoy. Now MM was with DT 13 years, long enough to get his own loyal following. So now many of that group is unhappy with Portnoy returning, but Many fans like myself are excited about it. Hell some people still want Kevin Moore back still to this day. Which I personally don’t ever want. Rudess all the way! Point is this band is polarizing! Us fans will always have our opinions, but the fact is DT belongs to the members of the band not the fans. It belongs to DT and they can choose to continue however they want because they are making the music not the fans. So I think we should just respect their decision and wait for the new album before we draw conclusions. I for one am so excited for this line up to be back at it! Nearly 40 years of DT guys. It’s time celebrate not to fight. All of us here have one thing in common, we all adore this band one way or another. So let’s just be excited on what’s to come. Sorry if that went on a bit!

WUT?

I see a few disagree with this point. So let me clarify. 80% was a tad excessive, I was exaggerating. It was maybe a tad over half the fan base I’d say. When Portnoy quit it was non stop negativity on his forum to the point that I just left. At least that’s what I remember, and when Mangini joined. Everyone I know that was a big DT fan in my circle was saying Mangini sounded like a machine and preferred Portnoy. I remember this when on the backs of angels was released. This continued when ADTOE released and I remember people literally disrespectfully calling out for Portnoy on the NYC gig I went to. Note, I’m a huge Portnoy Fan and this still pissed me off. I always liked and accepted Mangini. He’s a fantastic drummer, just different. Now I will say that negativity died out. The last few tours Mangini seemed accepted and the comparisons were basically all gone. I just remember many fans being absolute dicks about the situation on that first tour and album. Now that may very well have just be my own personal experience and the people I knew at the time, but that’s what I personally remember about Mangini’s entrance. A good amount were very welcoming and a lot were not at all. All I'm saying is it’s probably similar now. Once some time passed most fans will probably accept the situation more. It’s an adjustment period. I meant no disrespect to Mangini or anyone here. This forum is actually great compared to the old Portnoy forum days. There’s at least some respect for each other lol

[gzarruk]

I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.

This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?

When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote:

Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.

That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What?

I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?

Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.

[nobloodyname]

I don't think there's anyone here who believes MP leaving the band wasn't of his own volition, is there?

[Architeuthis]

I'm kind of torn both directions.  I think it's really cool to have MP back in DT and to see what they come up with. But I also loved MM's work on all five of the studio albums he was on, and he was fun to see live.
I almost wish MP was making another album with the NMB, since they are amazing in their own way. Right up there with DT imo. I'm worried the NMB is gonna suffer from this and may not make any more albums in the foreseeable  future. They could do it without Portnoy, but it wouldn't be the same since he's such a big part of the creative process.

[wolfking]

I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.

This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?

When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote:

Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.

That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What?

I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?

Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.

You know, you make a good point with the Jordan reference.  I don't follow what the guys post on social media so yeah, an example like that does make me chuckle and I can understand why some of you are a bit annoyed. 

Again though, those words from Jordan and the situation doesn't change any truth behind those words.  Keep in mind they aren't replacing MM with a new drummer.  It's a founding member that had a lot to do with their success. Plus in that quote he is referencing Charlie as part of the family, don't forget that.

The whole 'welcome to the family' thing I don't don't a problem with.  We all say things in life and things change.  If each one of us we're held against everything we've ever said in life, we'd all be screwed.  MM though like Charlie has become a part of the DT family and a part of their history.  Nothing changes that.

I don't think they feel good about letting MM go, but the bands integrity shouldn't be questioned over this IMO.  I mean, they would never get MP back and keep MM in just to look like loyal and good people.  That's just silly.

I know the talk about James saying MM was there for good and it's the final iteration of the band and blah blah blah, but that sort of talk is always just fluff and lip service.

[SwedishGoose]

I'm kind of torn both directions.  I think it's really cool to have MP back in DT and to see what they come up with. But I also loved MM's work on all five of the studio albums he was on, and he was fun to see live.
I almost wish MP was making another album with the NMB, since they are amazing in their own way. Right up there with DT imo. I'm worried the NMB is gonna suffer from this and may not make any more albums in the foreseeable  future. They could do it without Portnoy, but it wouldn't be the same since he's such a big part of the creative process.

This is my thoughs too.
I love Portnoy and I love Mangini.

On one hand it feels interresting to see what happens when he comes back to DT but I also feel sad that the MM era has ended.
The biggest gripe I have with this though is The Neal Morse Band not getting any attention.
To me that was the big plus of having MP out of DT that NMB made some fantastic albums and tours.
I fear that after the London Morsefest there will be no more The Neal Morse Band.

[crystalstars17]

I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.

This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?

When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote:

Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.

That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What?

Omg, this!!! It's as if MM has been suddenly, conveniently, disowned.

I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?

Exactly!

[gborland]

Omg, this!!! It's as if MM has been suddenly, conveniently, disowned.

Oh, come on. Disowning him would mean cutting off all contact, trying to pretend he was never in the band, being ashamed of his contributions. Do you actually know what "disowning" means?

I'm certain that the DT guys continue to have great affection for MM, are hugely grateful for his enormous contributions over the last 13 years, are proud of what they achieved together, are genuinely concerned for his feelings, would be happy to hang out with him and possibly invite him to jam¹ or make a special guest appearance at some future shows, the same way they previously invited DS and CD back.

¹ with a click track obviously. 

[gborland]

I fear that after the London Morsefest there will be no more The Neal Morse Band.

I also get this feeling. I think NM has done everything he can with that band (ticket sales for the London Morsefest are very weak), and will switch his focus to finding more bible stories to write concept albums about. (Maybe Sodom and Gomorrah is next?)

[Indiscipline]

Can I offer a glimmer of hope to the disappointed and those who strongly believe musical output will be gravely affected by this personnel switch?

Isn't I&W a better album than WDADU?
Isn't SFAM a better album than FII?
Isn't ADTOE a better album than BL&SL?

Sure, we all should grieve the loss of the band members we love, but once you're able to take that personal attachment out of the equation, as far as sheer musical values are concerned, change itself isn't necessarily a regression.

Obviously this isn't fantasy football, and personnel change affects everything from chemistry to live dynamics, from fan interaction to visual choices. But as long as you don't mess with the songwriting team (FII is not a better album than AWAKE), music quality should be the last aspect to be worried about.

[nobloodyname]

No, you can't offer a glimmer of hope. Certainly not in that well thought out manner, for goodness' sake. We won't have rationality breaking out here, thank you very much!

[crystalstars17]

No, you can't offer a glimmer of hope. Certainly not in that well thought out manner, for goodness' sake. We won't have rationality breaking out here, thank you very much!

Oh heaven forbid some people take a bit of time to adjust/mourn/etc. The MP fans did it for 13 years!

That said, Indiscipline's post is both well thought out and hopeful. And whether I agree with you or not, I need to acknowledge your sense of humor. 

[WilliamMunny]

...the final product will answer all the speculation.  I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.

This is me.

Yep, same here.

[nobloodyname]

No, you can't offer a glimmer of hope. Certainly not in that well thought out manner, for goodness' sake. We won't have rationality breaking out here, thank you very much!

Oh heaven forbid some people take a bit of time to adjust/mourn/etc. The MP fans did it for 13 years!

That said, Indiscipline's post is both well thought out and hopeful. And whether I agree with you or not, I need to acknowledge your sense of humor. 

But most of us really, really didn't do that for 13 years. It was certainly a shock when it happened, of course it was. And we lamented some of the change it brought about in terms of Dream Theater's output and show, and... that was about it. Personally, I always thought it was never a question of whether MP would rejoin but when. But it didn't make a single difference to me otherwise. Well, apart from saving money due to the increasing dryness of their shows. And, ya know, A Dramatic Turn of Events is a really good album, as is Distance Over Time and A Vew From the Top of the World.

[WilliamMunny]

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

I mean, I wouldn't use those words to describe what you are referring to, but, yeah, I DO LIKE MP's vocals and the metal-tinged elements he pushed for. So, there's at least one of us (but I suspect I'm not alone)

[MinistroRaven]

Photoshop. 

(that response sound familiar Jorge?   )
 

It rings a bell, for sure haha

[Stadler]

I don't understand people taking this so personally.  Who cares how it played out.  DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates.  This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.

Sucks for MM but why cry for him?  Would he care if any of us lost our jobs?  I think not.

I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.

We Mangini enthusiasts are having a moment to express our disappointment - the same way thousands of people did when MP left and did not stop until he eventually came back 13 years later. At the end of the day the new music will either make it all better or not and life will go on. This is still fresh and in a weird kind of way it is fun to speculate on what happened. However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.

I would buy this if the "Mangini Enthusiasts" weren't extrapolating a bunch of things that may or may not happened.  I said this to Crystal in a previous post:  if you're disappointed that you won't hear Mike M. with DT ever again, I TOTALLY understand that.  TOTALLY.  I will never hear Deep Purple with Ritchie Blackmore again, or Marillion with Fish. TOTALLY understand that disappointment.   But that doesn't excuse everything else about how Mangini was supposedly "dismissed" or "disrespected" or any of a number of other things that we don't know.   If you're disappointed with the "what" - no more Mangini in DT - so be it. That's normal and I empathize with you.  If you're disappointed with the "how" or the "why", well, I think that's where this sort of goes off the rails, and no good can come of it. 

[porcacultor]

What I'm worried for the MM... loyalists (not sure if the best term, it sounds ironic but isn't) is about eventually finding out how this change was handled internally. I don't think we ever will (or should), honestly.

It's a different band, but Slipknot has gone through many dramatic lineup changes in recent years (letting go of Joey Jordison, Chris Fehn and Jay Weinberg, losing Paul Gray (RIP) and Craig Jones) and these events have been explained in much vaguer terms than the MM->MP switch. A lot of fans also feel like they are owed more details and a proper explanation, and whenever those details have surfaced outside of the band's control (like the court documents for when Chris Fehn sued the group), it's only made the general picture worse. The band is weathering through the bad press and ultimately the backstage stuff doesn't really matter to anyone on the outside.

With DT, we have the benefit of all parties opting for a cordial route. I can absolutely understand the disappointment or even heartbreak of seeing a beloved lineup change, and this sentiment should be respected. What I'm saying is this might be the most details we ever get about the switch, barring a more inquisitive approach in an interview or personal interaction that could not only put the band members (current and former) in a delicate spot and at the risk of being misinterpreted, but wouldn't bring anything good to the person asking the question or to the people waiting for these answers.

My bet (and this is personal, speculatory and whatnot) is that the change, while exciting for those who wanted it, took place in a pretty boring and safe fashion. The points in time where JP got the idea, started talking seriously to MP about it, brought it up with the rest of the group, and MM was informed are ultimately meaningless.

Plus (and this has nothing to do with who he was in terms of active contributions to the group), I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".

[MinistroRaven]

I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.

Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??

I mean, I wouldn't use those words to describe what you are referring to, but, yeah, I DO LIKE MP's vocals and the metal-tinged elements he pushed for. So, there's at least one of us (but I suspect I'm not alone)

You are not alone.

I'm pleased that MP is back, but it's unfortunate for MM and his fans that he had to step aside for MP's return.

The whole discussion around "welcome to the family" and the family reference from Jordan reminds me of a thread in the General Discussion section about cutting ties with family members. Sometimes, it's a necessary step, whether it's for business, self-respect, security, or providing a safe environment for loved ones. Yes, cutting ties with family members is painful, but as the head of my own family, if it's the best course of action to protect my loved ones, I would do it without hesitation.

I don't know who made the decision, whether it was JP, their management, or if they had a meeting, but it's evident that the head of THAT family made a decision that MM (in his own words) understood. As for the fans, some may be happy, some may grieve, and some may harbor resentment towards the family heads. However, expressing disagreement or venting won't alter the situation.

[Stadler]

I don't understand people taking this so personally.  Who cares how it played out.  DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates.  This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.

Sucks for MM but why cry for him?  Would he care if any of us lost our jobs?  I think not.

Does no one understand the idea of being disappointed by your heroes? When you think they are some of the most intelligent and upstanding people and then they do something shitty to another person? I know this is partially my problem for idealizing them in the first place which is the only "personal" part in this; but the other part is that they did it. And if it were simply a business decision like some here speculate, I'd like to know in what universe nepotism (in this case changing the band lineup so the wives can hang out - really??) is an ok thing.

I'm sure I'll forgive them and get over it in time, but it's gonna take me a while.

I'm a Kiss fan; you tell me.  . 

I hear you loud and clear, but you're not reacting to things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED, you're reacting to things that MIGHT have happened - and "MIGHT" applies to about 10 different levels.  That's the point. 

We would all sit here and say "being cheated on sucks".  And some of us might say "if someone cheated on me, I'd ditch their fucking ass in a heart beat."  Remember when people said that of Hillary Clinton?  "How can she stay with that pig?"   Well, then real life happens.  I got cheated on.  And in the moment, there were other things more important for me.   Life doesn't work in discrete little bits of "yes!/no!", like bytes. 

You ask "in what universe is this acceptable?" and the answer is, "whatever universe it's acceptable in".  IT'S NOT YOUR CALL.  If Dream Theater says it's okay, and all six of them are on board with it - and we don't know that they're not - it's not our place to say it's not.

I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.

SO much this!!!

Wouldn't it be necessary to actually HAVE some musical product if we're going to comment on its quality?  I remember thinking that losing Ace Frehley and getting this clown named Tommy in for Kiss's guitar player would be the death knell on their music - nostalgia act! - and yet the last two Kiss records are actually top notch, and blow away the so-called "reunion" record.

I remember when Flying Colors was about to release their first record, and Mike listed the song titles and song lengths and there were these jokers that were like "WOW, Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean are going to be AWESOME! I can't wait to hear how great they are!" simply because they were the longest two.   "Revolution 9" is the longest Beatles record, and Yesterday is two minutes and seven seconds. Which one is the classic?  Neither of those two FC songs are even in my top five ON THE RECORD.

Look, if the music is actually a let down, then so be it. You like what you like (I think the last 12 years has been "missed opportunities!" personified, but that's me!) and you can't help that. But I can't understand not liking something that you haven't even heard yet.

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, guys.

Everything is going to be OK.


I believe every word JP said when he talked about MP with JP solo and MM with DT being separate.  I am 100% confident that that was the case at that time.  But at some point, things changed.

What changed was clearly the idea of reunion carrying as much weight with the member of DT as it did with MP.

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

It will be fine.

[Stadler]

Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone."  We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.

Point taken, but until they are at the very least forthcoming about the fact that upon MM's hire the so-called inevitability of MP's return was a foregone conclusion that he was initially informed about, it's not a great look. But as you say maybe a different perspective is necessary, and MM's gracious reaction could indicate that he was in fact prepared for this from the get go. Honestly it's the only thing that makes sense all the way around.

They won't be forthcoming on that because no such discussion would have taken place.

Cheers for taking some points on board though.

I've actually said this here in this thread previously: if you take a job replacing a founding member (absent death) and don't at least prepare yourself for the possibility of a return, you're just not paying attention and you're setting yourself up for failure.  I mean, c'mon. 

Someone said that DT is the center of the compass with "Iron Maiden", "Journey", "Queen" and "Yes".  Queen never had an original or core member leave, but the other three all did and all three have MULTIPLE INSTANCES of them coming back. Iron Maiden: Bruce Dickinson and Adrian Smith both returned to the fold, to the detriment of Blaze Bayley. Journey: Steve Perry, Ross Valory, and Steve Smith all returned at some point to the detriment of those that stepped into the void (talkin' to you, dawg! Randy Jackson!).   Yes: Steve Howe, Jon Anderson, Rick Wakeman, Tony Kaye, Geoff Downes, and Trevor Rabin all left/weren't invited to the party, and came back later. Wakeman multiple times.