DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[bosk1]

TAC, great post. 

Regarding show attendance, as far as the two shows I saw (one on the first leg and one on the DreamSonic leg), they were both very well attended.  I don't think they were sold out, but they were pretty full.  In fact, given all the complaining beforehand, I was shocked at how full it was and was expecting the place to be half empty, which was not the case.

Regarding TCOT, it's interesting.  I didn't see the BCSL tour, so I missed it.  And I wasn't at all upset, because I don't even like it that much.  I mean, it's not bad.  But I never loved it as much as most seem to.  Of the four songs that I like on that album, it is my least favorite.  But that said, it was amazing live on this tour, and I was perfectly happy to get to see it a second time.  I get wanting variety, and I would normally would vote in favor of NOT taking up 20 minutes of set time to play something they just played a few months earlier.  But for me personally, I really enjoyed it.

think this is why, in a sense to Petrucci's credit, he was smart to call Portnoy up now. I haven't been keeping my finger that closely on the pulse of the fanbase, but the Dreamsonic tour was the first time I started seeing a collective sense that whatever was going on just wasn't working, even though in retrospect you could see the signs building. You could easily say "well, we've made bad career moves before, we'll put our heads down in the studio make another good album, and have another good tour." And if that doesn't work out, now everyone thinks "Mangini-era DT sucks and is stale" and you're potentially in a tailspin. Better to nip the problem in the bud proactively.

  WTF?  That is not even remotely what happened or why.  Where do you get this stuff?

[Ben_Jamin]

Are we forgetting the "hidden"  Cowbell? 

[Indiscipline]

Great post, Tim.

As always your passion is contagious, and this bit is particularly poignant:

DT16
I expect to love it, as I do most Dream Theater albums. Personally, I put the 5 Mangini albums up against the 5 MP albums that preceded them easily. Their output has never been an issue with me. In fact, I've been impressed that they have carried on as they have.
I expect MP to be a huge salesman for the band again, and that alone should create excitement. MP's stewardship of the band gave the aura of the band a more human feel to it, whereas JP's stewardship gave it a bit of a robotic feel. Again, the musical output, for me, was never an issue, nor was Mangini in his personality or his playing. As Stadler has mentioned a couple of times, the JP solo tour last year with MP was an amazing experience. I had the cheap seats up top, and the vibe was as clear up there as it was down front. I'm ready.

Yeah. I always saw MP as a fan able to play with the gods and JP as a guitar god able to relate to fans, and believed they need their mutual influence - like every good creative couple and love story - to reach a virtous balance and fire with all cylinders.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s

[crystalstars17]

Wow - we should just stay home and listen to bootlegs from 1993? 

Setting aside the (unintentional???) dig at 'people like me,' 

It looks as if I need to clear the air a bit here (and sorry so late in doing so, real life and all that). It appears that some have taken offense at something I said. Apologies as I could have worded it better. There was no "dig", and neither was I specifically addressing anyone here. As others have pointed out, there are certain attitudes across the fandom that are more, well, nostalgic. I'll leave it at that, because others have already worded it better than I could. I was referring to the more extreme end of this attitude, it was not aimed at anyone in particular.

Let me ask you something, and it's not meant to be confrontational: have you ever seen footage from a complete MP-era concert? From any time, but let's say from the late 2000s.

A valid question and not confrontational at all. Yes, I have. I've seen all the major releases from that era, and of those Score (my first introduction to the band) is my favorite.

Some of your posts seem to imply that you (and the subset of fans that got into the band during the Mangini era) would be apalled by the practices of the MP days. And I'm not so sure that neither MP was (or will be) that much of a boogeyman nor that they did things in a way that was as unprofessional (or at least as unpolished) as some of your posts suggest.

There's definitely a marked change in overall style. This may only be a reflection of times and technology changing, rather than influence. It may also appear more jarring from my vantage point (I wasn't there at the time so in the moment it may have seemed more gradual). And maybe MP is not the boogeyman, but his lack of "filter" at times has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread so I don't think that part is my imagination. Yet I'll stand by what I said before that in time I may come to trust his influence as he was one of the founders.

Of course, we're at pure conjecture phase before the band has even had the chance to get together and play, let alone make a new album or live concert.

Exactly, aren't we?    

A band loses ME when they ignore new material, or stop producing new material at all. I am not interested in hearing just 20-25 y/o material.

This, 100%. I know we've discussed before the difference between a thriving band vs a "nostalgia act". DT is currently the former, and I think we can all agree that we don't want them to become the latter. But from the discussions of a possible "Metropolis part 3" it would seem that a nostalgia runs rampant through some parts of the fandom. Still I trust that the band is not anywhere near the end of their creativity yet. Whatever direction they decide to go from here, I'm sure we are in for something fresh and new.

[TAC]

TAC, great post. 

Regarding show attendance, as far as the two shows I saw (one on the first leg and one on the DreamSonic leg), they were both very well attended.  I don't think they were sold out, but they were pretty full.  In fact, given all the complaining beforehand, I was shocked at how full it was and was expecting the place to be half empty, which was not the case.

Regarding TCOT, it's interesting.  I didn't see the BCSL tour, so I missed it.  And I wasn't at all upset, because I don't even like it that much.  I mean, it's not bad.  But I never loved it as much as most seem to.  Of the four songs that I like on that album, it is my least favorite.  But that said, it was amazing live on this tour, and I was perfectly happy to get to see it a second time.  I get wanting variety, and I would normally would vote in favor of NOT taking up 20 minutes of set time to play something they just played a few months earlier.  But for me personally, I really enjoyed it.

Thanks Bosk!

Perhaps the fact that your Dreamsonic show was at the very end of the tour helped. Maybe those on the fence were ultimately convinced by some of the online chatter, because for all of the "James is struggling" talk, I think the feedback was pretty positive. Maybe the promotor dropped the ticket prices as it was getting closer.
Like I said, the first leg was well attended here are well.

TCOT is one of my favorite DT songs. Seriously.




I've pointed this out before, but regarding setlists, I think JP has done a great job from tour to tour building a setlist. I mean, just to be fair. No complaints here on those.

I didn't mind the nods to Awake and SFAM on the DT12 tour either. But I am not a "Let's play a really old album in full tour" kind of guy. It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

[Podaar]

It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. 

[axeman90210]

As someone whose desert island album is Scenes and has I&W probably in his top ten, but didn't become a fan of the band until much later on, I was thrilled with both tours and attended multiple shows of each

Honestly I think that it was a combination of A) Needing to get back into the good graces of promoters after what I remember being a fairly poorly attended second US leg of The Astonishing tour and B) Having significant anniversaries of their two most important albums line up right afterwards. I don't think it's part of a larger shift towards being a nostalgia act.

[KevShmev]

For those that didn't like LTE3, did you at least like the opening track Hypersonic? I also wasn't the biggest fan of the album, but that song is incredible to me.

No.  I disliked Hypersonic; it was all flash and "look at how fast we can play," but without any memorable melodies whatsoever.  I get that the band is all about showing off, and Hypersonic was supposed to be another Paradigm Shift and Acid Rain (hence, it being a "checking the boxes" record), but the first two track 1s at least had some good melodies mixed in with the crazy playing.  Hypersonic is all style and no substance, IMO.

[crystalstars17]

As someone whose desert island album is Scenes and has I&W probably in his top ten, but didn't become a fan of the band until much later on, I was thrilled with both tours and attended multiple shows of each

Absolutely! As a later fan who also loves I&W, I was happy to see it played live twice in 2017. A little nostalgia is alright, of course, when it's balanced. On these tours they were acknowledging both the old and the new with more or less equal attention. I'd like to see that going forward, rather than one over the other.

[Awaken]

It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. 

I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times.  I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me. 

[ReaPsTA]

think this is why, in a sense to Petrucci's credit, he was smart to call Portnoy up now. I haven't been keeping my finger that closely on the pulse of the fanbase, but the Dreamsonic tour was the first time I started seeing a collective sense that whatever was going on just wasn't working, even though in retrospect you could see the signs building. You could easily say "well, we've made bad career moves before, we'll put our heads down in the studio make another good album, and have another good tour." And if that doesn't work out, now everyone thinks "Mangini-era DT sucks and is stale" and you're potentially in a tailspin. Better to nip the problem in the bud proactively.

  WTF?  That is not even remotely what happened or why.  Where do you get this stuff?

A lot of it's my opinion, and if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

The part about Petrucci calling Portnoy about rejoining the band though is from the Portnoy Q&A.

[KevShmev]

It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. 

I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times.  I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.

That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon.  That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.

[ReaPsTA]

It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. 

I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times.  I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.

That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon.  That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.

A good point

[gzarruk]

It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. 

I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times.  I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.

That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon.  That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.

Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though

[Lonk]

Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though

I think it all depends when the new tour happens. If it takes place to promote a new album, I think you are right that we won't see many songs from the MM era. But if the tour is just a normal tour (no new album or celebrating any album), I will be shocked if they only play 3 songs or less from the MM era.

[MirrorMask]

They should really include James in the decision process for the setlists. Heck, every band should pay attention to their singer when constructing a setlist. I don't mean giving James veto power or creative control on the setlist, just clue him in in the decision and be open to minor stuff like "is it really a problem if we play this song fifth in the set rather than third? the more I'm warmed up in the show the more I can deliver better that specific vocal passage", stuff like that.

[TAC]

Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s

OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.

Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??

Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..

[Kocak]

They should really include James in the decision process for the setlists. Heck, every band should pay attention to their singer when constructing a setlist. I don't mean giving James veto power or creative control on the setlist, just clue him in in the decision and be open to minor stuff like "is it really a problem if we play this song fifth in the set rather than third? the more I'm warmed up in the show the more I can deliver better that specific vocal passage", stuff like that.

Having been involved in the audio and music industry for the last 13 years now, I can attest to this. Rule #1 for setlists should be "Don't kill the singer.". This is followed by "Don't kill the drummer." if the band is up there in age.

[TAC]

They should really include James in the decision process for the setlists. Heck, every band should pay attention to their singer when constructing a setlist. I don't mean giving James veto power or creative control on the setlist, just clue him in in the decision and be open to minor stuff like "is it really a problem if we play this song fifth in the set rather than third? the more I'm warmed up in the show the more I can deliver better that specific vocal passage", stuff like that.

I posted this in another thread last night, and I agree with you about James being involved.


...in a discussion about aging singers and the Dreamsonic tour...

To me, it wasn't James' performance that was startling...I mean it was..but it was the band's perceived indifference to it. I have not been able to come up with a good reason for it. I know MP was up front about the band sitting James down after the 6 D's tour. Has anything like that happened recently? Oddly, MP did what he could to protect James, removing the second verse in TTT, and having instrumentals in the setlist. Conversely, JP hung James out to dry, on a night to night basis by not making adjustments that were clear from the jump, but also forcing another tour on James, who clearly wasn't up for it.

I know the band was spent in 2010 but like MP says, when Iron Maiden comes calling, you don't turn that down. Ultimately, that tour could not have helped the frayed ends going on inside DT. It probably put the nail in the coffin.

Looks like Dreamsonic might have had the same result as well.

[gzarruk]

Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though

I think it all depends when the new tour happens. If it takes place to promote a new album, I think you are right that we won't see many songs from the MM era. But if the tour is just a normal tour (no new album or celebrating any album), I will be shocked if they only play 3 songs or less from the MM era.

I think it's highly possible they enter the studio early next year, write and record an album, and then do a small warm up tour before the album releases. If that's the case, I could maybe see another MM era song added, but like MP himself said, he'd rather focus on the stuff he released with the band. It's 10 vs 5 studio albums after all.

The only real scenario I see of them performing more MM era songs in a show is if they do the one song per album thing again for their 40th anniversary. That'd give us 5 at best.

[nobloodyname]

Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s

OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.

Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??

Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..

Wow. This forum. Are we really going to roast MP over a conversational third party utterance? We have absolutely no idea if that was verbatim what was said and, if so, how it was said.

[TAC]

Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s

OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.

Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??

Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..

Wow. This forum. Are we really going to roast MP over a third party quote? We have absolutely no idea if that was verbatim what was said and, if so, how it was said.

Well, it's not really a roast. But that is a very MP-like thing to say.

[cramx3]

So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?

PN08 was my 2nd and 3rd time seeing DT (the first time was the 1st leg of SC tour less than a year earlier).  Hard for me to compare the turnout of those two NYC PN08 shows to expectations or previous DT concerts.

What I can say, is those two shows were at Terminal 5 in NYC.  A 3k capacity GA venue. I don't recall it being sold out, and maybe not even full, but the floor wasn't empty by any means.  What my friend often tells me of his favorite memory was that after Opeth played, a significant amount of people left, leading us to go from the back of the floor to pretty close up.  This happened both nights, but more so on night 1. If I had to guess based on my shady memory, probably around 2k people showed up.  Which isn't that different than DT shows these days in the US.

For DreamSonic, they played the theater at MSG in NYC.  This is fully seated 5.6k capacity theater style venue.  Its pretty big. But they did curtain off the back section.  I'm not sure how many seats that leaves, but I'd guess around 3k and the show didn't sell great leading up to it, but I think many people like myself bought tickets at the door to save on costs as inside it didn't look quite as empty as it did on livenation leading up to the show.... but it still was fairly empty in the back.  Maybe another 2k showed up.

The CT Dreamsonic show would be shocked if more than 1k were there. Maybe even 500.

So I think the PN08 shows were typical attendance for DT and the DS shows were under performing.

What I also think is interesting, if you put PN08 on tour again (DT, Opeth, and Between the Buried an Me) and I think that show ends up selling better than DreamSonic as both Opeth and Between have grown quite a bit since then while DT has been fairly stagnant. I'm not sure I see that same growth potential for the Dreamsonic bands.

I've said it before and I'll say it again though, even if Dreamsonic was a failure, it is necessary for DT to tour with other bands who have fans of their own.  DT's popularity isn't improving by playing only to their fans.  It was pretty clear from reading here and on reddit that a lot of Devin fans became DT fans and vice versa.  I think that is good for the music in general.  Granted with the return of MP and approaching the end of their career, maybe DT doesn't need to draw in new fans to be able to go out the way they want to.

[Kocak]

Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended one of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s

OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.

Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??

Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..

I have a take on this:

I have followed MP and his career since 2002, when I became familiar with progressive music. I have watched every single video on Dream Theater - whether it be a studio video, a tour diary or even other people talking about DT etc. I have a copy of and read the official biography too.

My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.

My experience in the music industry has taught me that if you achieve fame through your ability with any given instrument, there's an unwritten obligation to push the boundaries of what is possible with that instrument. The 2000's is when MP became the weakest instrumental member of Dream Theater, he stopped doing clinics and solos, and started referring to himself as a groove and feel drummer and given how he started his career, this could be considered a regression. I think/know some of his endorsement deals came very close to a termination within the last decade.

My guess is that MP had always been the "widest musical horizon" member of Dream Theater. The others do not stray far from familiar grounds when it comes to musical preferences. (Other than JP introducing MP to Muse but that could be considered an anomaly in DT's case.) When he left DT, he spun it as "exploring new musical avenues". At the time, he was starstruck with the reception that A7X had on the road, a level of reception that he never had with DT and when that ended, he wanted to replicate that success with Adrenaline Mob which did not work and the band did not have any sort of commercial success whatsoever, he ended up leaving. The other guys wanted to hustle and do the small club tours but he did not see this as being MP-level when push came to shove.

He tried to please the fans with his prog side, pop side, metal side and all the other sides available to mankind but after more than a decade of trying to get things off the ground, the only somewhat successful outing of his has been the Winery Dogs as that sort of dad rock always has an audience. In my opinion, the TWD success is due to Richie Kotzen putting the break on things when he deemed necessary instead of having an industrial level output that other Portnoy projects are known for. When it came time to do the TWD albums and tours, things remained fresh for the band and the fans - it's like squeezing and orange but stopping when the juicer hits the peel. MP usually tries to juice the peel too.

Noticing that the fans wanted the prog metal experience from him after the positive reaction to the PSMS shows, he put together SoA - two ex-DT members trying to out-play Dream Theater. I think this was the project that he was most hopeful about, in terms of experiencing the good old days but it didn't work out that way and that was an eye-opener for him. They thought that putting 5 high profile guys in a room would result in instant success and it did not happen. I think when it comes to his commitments to bands, MP is an emotional person, so when things do not work out, he reacts in a big way. At the end of the day, Dream Theater is what made him and the shadow of Dream Theater will always follow him around. He has not managed to loom larger than the shadow of Dream Theater since he left the band in 2010.

He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is. This is true for other members and ex-members of Dream Theater as well. Sherinian had a 5-year stint with the band and he'll always be known for that despite having done more outside DT than within it. This happens with bands that become the gateway to their genre. The Waters-Gilmour push and pull created Pink Floyd, a similar circumstance is true for Dream Theater as well. It is just the way it is.

[Stadler]

It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. 

I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times.  I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.

That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon.  That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.

Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though

Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT.  He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do.   "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it.  That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine."  ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point.  You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years.  He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff.  Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.

[TAC]

He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is.

I think if he was a fan of a band that'd be what he would want. There's plenty of people that are happy that he's back. There's no denying that. But to paint the fanbase with such a broad stroke, I think that's what raises my eyebrows.

[ReaPsTA]

My experience in the music industry has taught me that if you achieve fame through your ability with any given instrument, there's an unwritten obligation to push the boundaries of what is possible with that instrument. The 2000's is when MP became the weakest instrumental member of Dream Theater, he stopped doing clinics and solos, and started referring to himself as a groove and feel drummer and given how he started his career, this could be considered a regression.

I 'member this.

No reason this ever had to happen. Clearly no talent issue.

Two of the biggest things I liked about MM's drumming were (1) more varied dynamics and (2) how it allowed/pushed the band to explore more poly-rhythmic concepts. Something like the end of The Walking Shadow is just so cool.

I can understand MP not being able to do the single-handed cymbal stuff the way MM can. MM was the world record holder (and still is?). But when it comes to the technical fineries of drumming, I'm not aware of any reason why MP can't do them.

[ReaPsTA]

He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is.

I think if he was a fan of a band that'd be what he would want. There's plenty of people that are happy that he's back. There's no denying that. But to paint the fanbase with such a broad stroke, I think that's what raises my eyebrows.

IMO too much is being read here into an off-handed comment that was not public and is being relayed second-hand. Like, if it was something more explosive, then sure, you gotta go with what you got. Being saying "it's what the fans wanted" could mean so many things, almost none of which are particularly interesting or scandalous. I don't get it.

[TAC]

Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT.  He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do.   "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it.  That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine."  ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point.  You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years.  He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff.  Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.

I think it's easy to take a quote and run with it, but his feelings on the subject here are pretty clear.  Let's hope he makes good on the "whatever they want is fine". To me, this is a huge sticking point on where I land as a Dream Theater fan going forward. No need for me to get upset about something that hasn't happened yet, but let's just say that I am cautious and paying attention to where this goes.

[TAC]

He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is.

I think if he was a fan of a band that'd be what he would want. There's plenty of people that are happy that he's back. There's no denying that. But to paint the fanbase with such a broad stroke, I think that's what raises my eyebrows.

IMO too much is being read here into an off-handed comment that was not public and is being relayed second-hand. Like, if it was something more explosive, then sure, you gotta go with what you got. Being saying "it's what the fans wanted" could mean so many things, almost none of which are particularly interesting or scandalous. I don't get it.

Sure, that's fair enough.

My point was that it is such an MP thing to say. That's all. His cringeyness was part of what made him endearing. I just found the comment funny more than anything. There's no great serious point to make here.

[Awaken]

It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.

100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. 

I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times.  I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.

That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon.  That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.

Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though

Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT.  He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do.   "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it.  That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine."  ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point.  You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years.  He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff.  Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.

Totally agree on this and really hope this isn't the direction they go.  I think each MM era album has great music that (hopefully) wouldn't get ignored from here on out.  I'd imagine that they discussed that before finalizing him being back in the band.  That being said, I don't know that the fanbase is hoping for TBP or TITL to be included in future setlists like me 

[ReaPsTA]

Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT.  He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do.   "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it.  That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine."  ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point.  You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years.  He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff.  Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.

I hate to go at you so hard, but I don't know what part of the implication of what MP said was that hard to understand. If the only reason you're going to play certain songs is because you're being asked to play them, that pretty obviously means a lack of interest.

Where things can go crabbed (and I've certainly done this), is assuming that one comment is the only thing MP will think/feel about it for all of the rest of time. Maybe he'll do some homework, sit down with the Mangini-era material, and think "actually I want to take a crack at some of these." Who knows.

But what we've got to go on at the moment is what we've got, and I'm not seeing the ambiguity there.

[pg1067]

In fact, I skipped the Progressive Nation '08 show for all of the same reasons. I mean they dedicated time in an abbreviated set to play a fucking Mario video..WTF??

I think you didn't realize that this was the 2.5 minute or so encore break that the band would take anyway between the end of the main set and the encore. So really, aside from perhaps being slightly longer than what they'd normally do before returning to the stage, it was the same, with the added bonus of the audience having something entertaining to watch in the process. Nothing to take issue with at all.

You bringing up the Progressive Nation shows actually brings up a good point in comparison to the DreamSonic shows. I only attended one show for PN08 because of the abbreviated DT set and because I couldn't care less about Opeth or BtBaM (plus I had seen 3 open for PT at two shows the year before), but I remember that show was well attended regardless of the shorter set and that it was essentially a continuation of promotion for Systematic Chaos, which is similar to DreamSonic and promoting of AVFtTotW. So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?

I attended the May 2, 2008 PN08 show at the Gibson Amphitheatre in Los Angeles.  We didn't arrive in time for 3, and watched some of the other two openers' shows but mostly stayed in the bar area because their vocals were laughable.  DT had played the same 6,200 seat venue nearly a year earlier on the first leg of the SC tour.  The Gibson had a pit area, two levels of fixed floor seats, and a mezzanine.  For the PN08 show, I had bought front row seats on Stubhub but told my friends I bought them at face value, so I can't say I really noticed the attendance, but I think I'd have noticed if attendance was significantly lower than it had been the year before.  I think the far side sections of the second tier of floor seats were mostly empty, as were the back rows of the second tier, but otherwise, I think both shows were well-attended (5,000ish probably).

[Madman Shepherd]

In fact, I skipped the Progressive Nation '08 show for all of the same reasons. I mean they dedicated time in an abbreviated set to play a fucking Mario video..WTF??

I think you didn't realize that this was the 2.5 minute or so encore break that the band would take anyway between the end of the main set and the encore. So really, aside from perhaps being slightly longer than what they'd normally do before returning to the stage, it was the same, with the added bonus of the audience having something entertaining to watch in the process. Nothing to take issue with at all.

You bringing up the Progressive Nation shows actually brings up a good point in comparison to the DreamSonic shows. I only attended one show for PN08 because of the abbreviated DT set and because I couldn't care less about Opeth or BtBaM (plus I had seen 3 open for PT at two shows the year before), but I remember that show was well attended regardless of the shorter set and that it was essentially a continuation of promotion for Systematic Chaos, which is similar to DreamSonic and promoting of AVFtTotW. So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?

I attended the May 2, 2008 PN08 show at the Gibson Amphitheatre in Los Angeles.  We didn't arrive in time for 3, and watched some of the other two openers' shows but mostly stayed in the bar area because their vocals were laughable.  DT had played the same 6,200 seat venue nearly a year earlier on the first leg of the SC tour.  The Gibson had a pit area, two levels of fixed floor seats, and a mezzanine.  For the PN08 show, I had bought front row seats on Stubhub but told my friends I bought them at face value, so I can't say I really noticed the attendance, but I think I'd have noticed if attendance was significantly lower than it had been the year before.  I think the far side sections of the second tier of floor seats were mostly empty, as were the back rows of the second tier, but otherwise, I think both shows were well-attended (5,000ish probably).

Portnoy said they lost money on that tour if I remember correctly or at the very least broke even. I too skipped some of the bands. Regardless, I think that shows attendance didn't meet their goal but obviously bringing that many bands out adds expenses. Whether that meant attendance was less or the same, I can't say. But it didn't make money.