DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[Stadler]

I don't disagree vehemently - don't like the "c-" word, but still - but the last part isn't really apples to apples. He's one of the three, the trinity, that has been there from day one and persevered, at least up to a point.   Kevin would be in that group, too, but he bailed early.   There's no "pre-JR" and "post-JR" because he's not the first.  Hell, he's not even the SECOND.  And CONCENSUS, there's a JR record and a non-JR record in the discussion for "best DT record".   There's no MM record in that pantheon, at least not across the entire fanbase.  We did that list here not that long ago.

Yes, I agree that it is an important point.

But if, when we want to discuss DT's sound, the band's paths, choices etc. You can't ignore JR's impact on Dream Theater.

I believe that if it is possible to establish a trio of classic albums that many fans would not object to, that trio would be I&W, Awake and SFAM (although I myself am not that fond of Awake, but that's okay). I find it quite symptomatic that two of these albums are with KM and the other is the FIRST album with JR.

I'm not trying to say that JR ruined DT, that's not the way of reasoning.

But it is undeniable that after him the band changed. And although he's been on some great albums, none of them are a huge consensus, except the first one.

I have rarely seen a discussion like this. On the other hand, how many times have I seen the following theoretical path "Dream Theater was a badass band, MP left the band and they became shit. The end"? At least hundreds of times? There is an absurd discrepancy in my opinion. That's what I'm referring to.

Edit: The idea of the trinity is interesting, but let's be honest. It is not really a trinity, not in the sense that the three entities occupy equal roles. If JM says "guys, I'm tired.... carry on without me" there won't be a JM era and post-JM era.

Not arguing with you, at all, but your post sort of sprung an idea that I had begun thinking about over the weekend.

So I have a friend group, and there's about six guys that are what you might call "core".  You know, if there's a smoker (do people use that word anymore?) or something like that, there's about six guys that are guaranteed to be there.    We're not all equals, though.  Maybe in terms of love and affection, or whatever, but not in terms of the dynamic.  There are two guys that basically... set the tone.  And we can and do do things without one or the other, but the dynamic is usually what the two Mikes (they're both named Mike) want to do.  Me?  Honestly, I don't care if we meet at a football game, or a bar to watch the game, or at someone's house.  If I said "NO. Just not doing that, can we come up with another plan?" they'd probably go along, but it would have to be good reason.  But generally, there can't be 6 head coaches; I accept that, and I frankly just like the company and want to be in there somewhere.   I think John and Mike are the "two Mikes".  They just are more equal than everyone else.  I think they're both more forceful personalities, and over time, by attrition, they've assumed the mantel of leadership.  Since 1999 the albums have been produced by John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy, or just John Petrucci.   Not "Dream Theater", but those two.  And when Mike left, no one else filled that role.

[Stadler]

So....

How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?

Rotating setlists or not, I think a lot fewer people are going to go to multiple shows for this very reason. When I first saw them in 2000, my ticket was 20 bucks. That same ticket goes for 70 now. Inflation plays a role but not a 50 dollar difference role.

Btw, this is not a DT thing. Pretty much every band at their level has increased prices to this figure.

Yeah, while it's not a DT thing, DT tickets are still a bit more expensive than other metal bands playing the same venues.  The dreamsonic tour was a bit stupid in pricing for the larger venues IMO.  I can't say for sure how much this impacted sales, but I'd bet a lot of money it had some impact.  JLB struggles and DT not doing an evening with set and not touring a new album (being a second A View tour), also probably added to poor sales.

I think you're right in singling out the Dreamsonic tour; I probably wouldn't have gone if was just me.  I just saw the AVFTTOTW tour, it was excellent, and I really enjoyed it, but I wasn't going to drop $100 to see an abbreviated - and much overlapping - set for an album that is very good not great.  Devin and meeting up with people tipped the scales for me.

[Dedalus]

Not arguing with you, at all, but your post sort of sprung an idea that I had begun thinking about over the weekend.

So I have a friend group, and there's about six guys that are what you might call "core".  You know, if there's a smoker (do people use that word anymore?) or something like that, there's about six guys that are guaranteed to be there.    We're not all equals, though.  Maybe in terms of love and affection, or whatever, but not in terms of the dynamic.  There are two guys that basically... set the tone.  And we can and do do things without one or the other, but the dynamic is usually what the two Mikes (they're both named Mike) want to do.  Me?  Honestly, I don't care if we meet at a football game, or a bar to watch the game, or at someone's house.  If I said "NO. Just not doing that, can we come up with another plan?" they'd probably go along, but it would have to be good reason.  But generally, there can't be 6 head coaches; I accept that, and I frankly just like the company and want to be in there somewhere.   I think John and Mike are the "two Mikes".  They just are more equal than everyone else.  I think they're both more forceful personalities, and over time, by attrition, they've assumed the mantel of leadership.  Since 1999 the albums have been produced by John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy, or just John Petrucci.   Not "Dream Theater", but those two.  And when Mike left, no one else filled that role.

Indeed, no one occupied that role. Maybe because JP didn't want someone else to occupy it.

For example, the role of producer. He could have invited JR to produce the records with him. It would be a natural decision. But, I believe, he didn't want to. I'm not saying that Jordan would do everything like MP, but he would be someone to share the role with JP.

It's interesting that Jordan in TA, in addition to his composition credits, received "creative direction" credit (if I'm not mistaken). What the hell is that? Wouldn't it be something very close to a producer? But he received no production credits.

[heirtoruin]

For what it's worth... long time occasional lurker/new register/old dt.net and livejournal poster from the ToT and 8VM days...

DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.

Now that MP is returning, I'm intrigued again. My son [19] is the age I was when Awake and ACOS were new. He's already into prog bands such as The Dear Hunter, Yes, Leprous, and Pain of Salvation... so when I brought up MP returning to DT, he started adding them to his rotation. He loves IAW and 6DoIT, but he's still very new. We talked a bit about what he'd like to see at a show. We just went to see The Dear Hunter a couple weeks ago for the Migrant 10th anniversary, which had a repeated set list although no big light and video show. He agreed with me... that going to a concert should be a surprise. Without context, I asked pound for pound if he'd rather know what songs would be played or get a surprise... "We get so few real surprises anymore with all the media so unless we just go dark... you're going to know what to expect. I'd rather get a few surprises."

I've seen KISS. They do the same thing night after night with no deviation. Great "show" complete with canned Paul Stanley lead vocal tracks on the click. That's not what I want from a prog band. I want to see spontaneity... not boredom with the same set two months in a row. Oh... and that's what all the KISS superfans say... "Yeah but the casual fans don't care!!" Does DT have casual fans that only want to hear Pull Me Under and The Alien? How does that even work with a virtuoso non commercial band that isn't Foreigner? That's not living in the past. That's called musicianship and having a relationship with the audience. Zappa said it best... that he's willing to take a chance to give a crowd a unique experience that the next city won't get... but will get a different one.

Rotating sets seem far more exciting than walking into the venue knowing exactly what is going to be played because setlist.fm and YouTube exist. Like my son said... we could go dark, but honestly, it's that feasible? Should we cut out fan interaction just so we don't know what the setlist will be?

[HOF]

I think it would be pretty easy to avoid set lists if you wanted to, but it might depend on where all you interact with other fans online. Maybe on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter people are less shy about posting spoilers. But it seems that every fan group I interact with goes to great lengths to discourage setlist spoilers. There’s zero reason for anyone who doesn’t want to know the setlist to be on setlist FM!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If you were only going to one show and didn't want to know exactly what was going on wouldn't you just avoid spoilers/looking at the recordings from the earlier shows? Seems easy enough.

I went to two DT shows on the ADTOE but I just happened to be at the second location for something else. Realistically how many shows are people going to one one leg? Honest question, since the next closest shows to me usually require a few hours of travel and commitment.

[heirtoruin]

There’s zero reason for anyone who doesn’t want to know the setlist to be on setlist FM!

Can't disagree with that specifically but that doesn't stop people from messaging you and talking about it. It's just too much in the too much all the time 24/7 tuned in world to not have spoilers.

But really, what is the fan appeal to seeing a band playing the same songs in the same order that they did 5 weeks ago, especially if the setlist takes into account songs last played in that particular market? It just seems like a win win... but I just don't care about a synced up video screen if there's a binary option. I once played a gig where the video screen pattern was triggered by the music from the soundboard target than a programmed pattern... just seems that there could even be more than an either/or scenario. I've been out of the game for a few minutes though.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

For what it's worth... long time occasional lurker/new register/old dt.net and livejournal poster from the ToT and 8VM days...

DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.

Now that MP is returning, I'm intrigued again. My son [19] is the age I was when Awake and ACOS were new. He's already into prog bands such as The Dear Hunter, Yes, Leprous, and Pain of Salvation... so when I brought up MP returning to DT, he started adding them to his rotation. He loves IAW and 6DoIT, but he's still very new. We talked a bit about what he'd like to see at a show. We just went to see The Dear Hunter a couple weeks ago for the Migrant 10th anniversary, which had a repeated set list although no big light and video show. He agreed with me... that going to a concert should be a surprise. Without context, I asked pound for pound if he'd rather know what songs would be played or get a surprise... "We get so few real surprises anymore with all the media so unless we just go dark... you're going to know what to expect. I'd rather get a few surprises."

I've seen KISS. They do the same thing night after night with no deviation. Great "show" complete with canned Paul Stanley lead vocal tracks on the click. That's not what I want from a prog band. I want to see spontaneity... not boredom with the same set two months in a row. Oh... and that's what all the KISS superfans say... "Yeah but the casual fans don't care!!" Does DT have casual fans that only want to hear Pull Me Under and The Alien? How does that even work with a virtuoso non commercial band that isn't Foreigner? That's not living in the past. That's called musicianship and having a relationship with the audience. Zappa said it best... that he's willing to take a chance to give a crowd a unique experience that the next city won't get... but will get a different one.

Rotating sets seem far more exciting than walking into the venue knowing exactly what is going to be played because setlist.fm and YouTube exist. Like my son said... we could go dark, but honestly, it's that feasible? Should we cut out fan interaction just so we don't know what the setlist will be?

great callout on Zappa, one of my favorite things about his vast vault of recordings is the seemingly endless live shows with massively varied setlists and performances to comb over.

Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.

[heirtoruin]

Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.

I've had a number of people try to sell me on a Phish concert, but I don't know... i might be fuddy duddy here, but the personalities and the Xanax scene kinda did me in. Everyone I've ever known in that world were all pill poppers so definitely not the environment I want to be in. I could be way off, but that's been my jam band fan experience going all the way back. I'm almost 50 now so... "Let's rage bro" doesn't really get me going haha.

But I definitely have enjoyed UM though never did a live show. I used to spin Anchor Drops that a friend left in my truck years ago. I didn't really keep up with them, but thanks for reminding me.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.

I've had a number of people try to sell me on a Phish concert, but I don't know... i might be fuddy duddy here, but the personalities and the Xanax scene kinds did me in. Everyone I've ever known in that world were all pill poppers so definitely not the environment I want to be in. I could be way off, but that's been my jam band fan experience going all the way back. I'm almost 50 now so... "Let's rage bro" doesn't really get me going haha.

But I definitely have enjoyed UM though never did a live show. I used to spin Anchor Drops that a friend left in my truck years ago. I didn't really keep up with them, but thanks for reminding me.

ack. yeah the drug scene is still pretty prevalent on the lots and shows at those types of shows. it's not pills anymore really though, that was more of an early 2000s problem with the scene. glad you like UM though, and yeah, there is plenty of live material to poke through without needing to attend a show. the band puts out yearly "Hall of Fame" albums which are essentially compilations of the the "best" (as voted by the fans on their site) performances of various songs through the year. they compile it such that it is sequenced and edited to sound like a complete concert of theirs (so it's about 2.5 hours of material with audience noise between songs, etc). they're pretty fun tho, and a cool way to get a feel for how the band is evolving sound + performance/improv wise over the years without having to attend a show or keep up in an obsessed fan way

[HOF]

There’s zero reason for anyone who doesn’t want to know the setlist to be on setlist FM!

Can't disagree with that specifically but that doesn't stop people from messaging you and talking about it. It's just too much in the too much all the time 24/7 tuned in world to not have spoilers.

But really, what is the fan appeal to seeing a band playing the same songs in the same order that they did 5 weeks ago, especially if the setlist takes into account songs last played in that particular market? It just seems like a win win... but I just don't care about a synced up video screen if there's a binary option. I once played a gig where the video screen pattern was triggered by the music from the soundboard target than a programmed pattern... just seems that there could even be more than an either/or scenario. I've been out of the game for a few minutes though.

You know, I don't really know anyone in real lief who is into the same music as I am, so people texting me set list spoilers has never occurred to me as a possibility!

I don't really have a dog in this debate. I don't go to concerts in the first place. I can see wanting spontaneity in a show or valuing being surprised by the setlist. But if you aren't seeing multiple shows or paying attention to the set lists in other cities, I wouldn't think it would matter to you whether the setlist was static or not.

[heirtoruin]

It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.

I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." 

[OpenYourEyes311]

I'm definitely in the camp of going dark once the band is on tour. I'll be staying far away from this place until I see a show. I'll also probably get off FB at the time too. Just way too easily spoiled these days.

[nobloodyname]

It says quite a bit, to me anyway, that DT's promotion for recent tours has literally included spoilers of individual songs and sets.

[Nekov]

DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.

I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.

[lucasembarbosa]

One good thing about the rotating setlist is that bootlegs will be much more interesting, given the history of live nuggetzz and jams during MP 1.0 line up 

[Stadler]

DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.

I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.

I apologize, but I don't agree with that even a little bit. I'm sure at the end of the their talent, Mike M. can probably do "more" things than Mike P. but that doesn't make it "better" or indicate that anyone was being "held back".   I for one find Mike M.'s style intrusive; I don't feel that 8,562 bass drum hits in 6.427 seconds is a necessary component of a "good" full-on prog instrumental.  My most favorite piece of recorded music is a "full on prog instrumental" and it wasn't done by players considered the tippy top of their respective crafts (Genesis, the In The Cage medley from 3SL; the players are great, but does anyone consider Banks, Collins, or Rutherford THE most technically accomplished players on their respective instruments?)  There have been plenty of moments with Neal Morse where the band has left me breathless because of the playing. 

I don't know.  These conversations are interesting but a bit off point, in that for me, I just want to see this band enjoy themselves on stage again.  I can't speak for them, I've never talked with them about it, but as I have said before, I noticed a PALPABLE sense of... joy, for lack of a better word, when John and Mike P. were playing last year.  Yeah, maybe Mike M. has a higher technical ceiling, but that's like saying "well Margot Robbie is the hottest actress ever"; okay, that doesn't mean that other women aren't breathtakingly beautiful as well.   And maybe those other women fit a part better. 

[Nekov]

Don't get me wrong Stads, I love MPs playing and I'm glad he came back. I'm just pointing out that when it comes to playing uber-complicated things, MM is your guy. That doesn't mean it's better, it just means that they could explore certain things that would be difficult to do with MP. This also doesn't mean that MM is better than MP. They have very different styles and I would take MPs groove over MMs technicality any day of the week.

[Awaken]

DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.

I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.

I kind of feel like if you had to summarize DT, 'wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess' would pretty much cover things regardless of era/member line up.  It's just something they've always done.  Personally, I love it - but I totally get why so many of my family/friends over the years can't connect w them.

[Dedalus]

It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.

I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." 

That's not the point. The point is: if I'm only going to attend one show, then whatever. So I don't require the band to rotate sets, which is something they clearly don't like doing (except Mike). It's not that sophisticated of a thought.

[The Great Ape]

For what it's worth... long time occasional lurker/new register/old dt.net and livejournal poster from the ToT and 8VM days...

DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.

Now that MP is returning, I'm intrigued again. My son [19] is the age I was when Awake and ACOS were new. He's already into prog bands such as The Dear Hunter, Yes, Leprous, and Pain of Salvation... so when I brought up MP returning to DT, he started adding them to his rotation. He loves IAW and 6DoIT, but he's still very new. We talked a bit about what he'd like to see at a show. We just went to see The Dear Hunter a couple weeks ago for the Migrant 10th anniversary, which had a repeated set list although no big light and video show. He agreed with me... that going to a concert should be a surprise. Without context, I asked pound for pound if he'd rather know what songs would be played or get a surprise... "We get so few real surprises anymore with all the media so unless we just go dark... you're going to know what to expect. I'd rather get a few surprises."

I've seen KISS. They do the same thing night after night with no deviation. Great "show" complete with canned Paul Stanley lead vocal tracks on the click. That's not what I want from a prog band. I want to see spontaneity... not boredom with the same set two months in a row. Oh... and that's what all the KISS superfans say... "Yeah but the casual fans don't care!!" Does DT have casual fans that only want to hear Pull Me Under and The Alien? How does that even work with a virtuoso non commercial band that isn't Foreigner? That's not living in the past. That's called musicianship and having a relationship with the audience. Zappa said it best... that he's willing to take a chance to give a crowd a unique experience that the next city won't get... but will get a different one.

Rotating sets seem far more exciting than walking into the venue knowing exactly what is going to be played because setlist.fm and YouTube exist. Like my son said... we could go dark, but honestly, it's that feasible? Should we cut out fan interaction just so we don't know what the setlist will be?

great callout on Zappa, one of my favorite things about his vast vault of recordings is the seemingly endless live shows with massively varied setlists and performances to comb over.

Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.

I am a huge phan of phish, twiddle, papadosia, and all phil anselmo shit

[Nekov]

DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.

I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.

I kind of feel like if you had to summarize DT, 'wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess' would pretty much cover things regardless of era/member line up.  It's just something they've always done.  Personally, I love it - but I totally get why so many of my family/friends over the years can't connect w them.

For sure. I agree that the technical prowess has always been there. But, as heirtoruin pointed out in his post, in the past, we also used to get a lot of stuff that was non technical and more melody oriented. And even when they were delving into technicality, it wasn't as complex as it is nowadays.

[Stadler]

It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.

I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." 

That's not the point. The point is: if I'm only going to attend one show, then whatever. So I don't require the band to rotate sets, which is something they clearly don't like doing (except Mike). It's not that sophisticated of a thought.

But it does affect you.   When you are one of 45, and the band isn't stretching out on that gangplank with the fear of falling, are you getting their best?   I've seen Kiss now more than any other band, and literally half the set has been the same regardless of whether it was makeup, no makeup, reunion, or current incarnation, and while the show is still great, I've written about how there have been times where they've had to purposefully remind themselves that they have a paying audience that maybe hasn't seen them before, and they better step it up.   

Granted, these guys are all professionals, but I think DT is a different band than Kiss, and they build energy in different ways.

I've written in general about the dynamic between Mike and John on John's solo tour, but more specifically, there was one song where they were clearly playing off each other and it didn't seem planned (and was different the two nights I saw them).  John was looking square at Mike to see what he was going to do and Mike was looking square at John to see what he was going to do and it was electric.  I experienced the same thing at the Innocence and Danger shows with Neal Morse (but specifically between Mike and Randy and again, it was different the two nights I saw them).   

Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity.   I don't know; when you're busy counting time and making sure you hit your cue, I feel like those moments of spontaneity are harder to come by.

[hefdaddy42]

Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity. 

I agree.  It can certainly be done without rotating setlists, but it would help if they aren't chained to a click and are free to live, move, and breathe.

[cramx3]

Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity. 

I agree.  It can certainly be done without rotating setlists, but it would help if they aren't chained to a click and are free to live, move, and breathe.

Yeah.  I much prefer the "unknown" of what a band will do on stage, but have long accepted the reality that a lot of bands just aren't going to do that.  But I would much rather at the end of the day for the show to feel live and in person.  As in, I don't like the canned banter between songs and I don't like when a band looks like they are just going through the motions and/or playing to a backing track without any life to the music.  Sadly, there's a lot of that.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol. I wouldn't say the click necessarily defeats or suffocates those "special because it's only happening right here on this stage at this show" moments. I think with some effort (and lots of practice) they could definitely keep the tightness the click provides while not being hamstrung by it

[hefdaddy42]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.

Not that I've ever heard.  At least, in live performance.

[Setlist Scotty]

A few weeks ago, when Charlie passed, Mike made a post with his thoughts and some pictures, well... DT's page made the same exact post. I remember reading a comment somewhere saying something like "Wow, Mike has been back in the band for a few weeks only and he's already managing their social media posts"

I saw that and thought something similar too. But in all fairness, it was probably management or whoever handles DT's website that threw that post together, copying half of what MP said. I doubt it was a case of MP being the one who also wrote up the exact post that was on DT's page.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.

Not that I've ever heard.  At least, in live performance.

have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks

ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)

[hefdaddy42]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.

Not that I've ever heard.  At least, in live performance.

have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks

ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)

I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do.  Or even Goose.  I mean, why would they?

[The Great Ape]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.

Not that I've ever heard.  At least, in live performance.

Papadosio

My favorite band of all time. Anthony brings light and life to this dark world.

[hefdaddy42]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.

Not that I've ever heard.  At least, in live performance.

have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks

ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)

I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do.  Or even Goose.  I mean, why would they?

I actually just found two articles about the lighting engineers for Phish and UM respectively, praising them for the live work they do given the fact that neither band plays to a click track.  So the lighting engineers are essentially "jamming" with the band the whole time. 

[Dedalus]

It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.

I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." 

That's not the point. The point is: if I'm only going to attend one show, then whatever. So I don't require the band to rotate sets, which is something they clearly don't like doing (except Mike). It's not that sophisticated of a thought.

But it does affect you.   When you are one of 45, and the band isn't stretching out on that gangplank with the fear of falling, are you getting their best?   I've seen Kiss now more than any other band, and literally half the set has been the same regardless of whether it was makeup, no makeup, reunion, or current incarnation, and while the show is still great, I've written about how there have been times where they've had to purposefully remind themselves that they have a paying audience that maybe hasn't seen them before, and they better step it up.   

Granted, these guys are all professionals, but I think DT is a different band than Kiss, and they build energy in different ways.

I've written in general about the dynamic between Mike and John on John's solo tour, but more specifically, there was one song where they were clearly playing off each other and it didn't seem planned (and was different the two nights I saw them).  John was looking square at Mike to see what he was going to do and Mike was looking square at John to see what he was going to do and it was electric.  I experienced the same thing at the Innocence and Danger shows with Neal Morse (but specifically between Mike and Randy and again, it was different the two nights I saw them).   

Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity.   I don't know; when you're busy counting time and making sure you hit your cue, I feel like those moments of spontaneity are harder to come by.

Yes, affect, both for better and for worse. Different situations, whether a show is looser and more flexible or more rigid and rehearsed. I'm not saying it isn't.

I'm just saying that it's possible to attend one of the 45 shows where the band will play the same songs in the same way and have a great time. But it seems that many think not, that the show will undoubtedly be boring. If that were the case, most bands' shows would be boring. I don't think it is.

I'll give an example. My show on the Chaos in Motion Tour was a lot of fun in the sense that you're advocating. MP took JP's guitar and tried out some Eruption tappings, with JP on drums (there's a video online of MP doing the same thing at a show in Europe). Mike was super excited at this show, with several interventions between songs. In one of the moments he literally simulated fu***ng an ant on set. 

It was funny and cool to watch. The other DT shows I attended weren't like that (even with MP on the drums). I can say that this was the most unique DT show I attend. It was the best? No, it was not. Why not? Because I liked more the setlists I attended at shows after he left the band (and I'm not saying that this happened because he left the band, before some people get pissed). That simple.

My best moments with DT live had nothing to do with who the drummer was, whether the setlist was fixed, A/B or rotating, whether the show was more relaxed or rigorous. And yes, which songs played and their sequence, and what worked best or not for my taste.

At the end of the day, the important thing is for people to go to shows (or via the internet, CDs, whatever) and get emotional, have fun and have a good time. On the internet there are a lot of people reacting and appreciating Nightwish's live moments, even with tons of pre-recorded backing tracks. That's what I'm saying.

Anyway, MP is back. The shows will please you again. So it's okay.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.

Not that I've ever heard.  At least, in live performance.

have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks

ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)

I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do.  Or even Goose.  I mean, why would they?

UM and Goose have a lot of electronica elements (which sometimes include samples - which basically necessitate a click)

Phish probably just because they're old as shit now I know they never used to, it's a new thing since they've returned to live touring in the late 2000s

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.

Not that I've ever heard.  At least, in live performance.

have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks

ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)

I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do.  Or even Goose.  I mean, why would they?

I actually just found two articles about the lighting engineers for Phish and UM respectively, praising them for the live work they do given the fact that neither band plays to a click track.  So the lighting engineers are essentially "jamming" with the band the whole time. 

how old are those articles? if they're talking about Ben Factor for UM it's probably older. Or maybe UM only uses the click when they are dipping into an electronica vibe for a while?