Why are DT fans so critical?

[The Great Ape]

I have been listening to DT for about 20 years, but I haven't ever engaged much in the online community about their music until recently. And oh boy, people have some opinions. I have come across a couple people saying something like "nobody hates DT more than their fans". Why?

Yeah, some of their stuff is not my favorite thing to listen to either, but I can't imagine any of their music being worthy of so much negative sentiment. Give them a break! Most bands experience lineup changes. Most bands try different things as their career progresses. James is getting older. I could go on and on.

Regardless of everything, this is my favorite band. My taste has changed a lot in the last 20 years (I'm sure yours has, too). I have developed appreciation for metal, synthwave, bluegrass, light rock, folk, etc, but DT is the only music that I have never stopped listening to. I always come back to them.

I can't understand the criticism, they have made so much good music and (as far as I know) are genuinely good men/fathers/husbands. We're fortunate to have them.

[Stadler]

This isn't unique to Dream Theater.  Despite them selling out stadia, ask certain Genesis fans about certain eras of their music and you're bound to get an earful.  Despite them being in the band multiples longer, ask certain Kiss fans about certain members of the band.

[Trav86]

I think it’s more about the kind fans that spend time talking about them online are more critical. People on here were shitting all over the fact they were playing ITPOE 1 and ANTR on the 2019 tour. But at the show, everyone went nuts for those songs. People complain about PMU getting brought back in the set a lot. But I guarantee it gets the best crowd reaction.

[Samsara]

Because when you're online, people feel like they can say what they want without reprisals. Sadly, it's true in some cases.

Being constructive in criticism, in order to push a point and make it seen is one thing. Bitching just to be an asshat is another.

[HOF]

I do think you can probably find a similar element of fans among any band’s fanbase, in particular those who might be bothered to talk about the band online. But I think part of the issue with DT specifically is that they appeal to a particular type of fan who has high musical standards (trying to avoid implying the term “prog snob,” but prog and metal communities tend to have their strong opinions), and probably tends to hold the band to a high standard as well.

[bosk1]

Because when you're online, people feel like they can say what they want without reprisals. Sadly, it's true in some cases.

Being constructive in criticism, in order to push a point and make it seen is one thing. Bitching just to be an asshat is another.

Yes.  And I think many fail to understand the line between the two.

But also, I think there's a tendency to expect certain things from a band, and then to complain when those expectations aren't met.  That is probably less a problem with a band like AC/DC.  Not bagging on them at all, but that's a band where you mostly know what you are going to get from album to album, and there aren't likely to be any surprises.  They do what they do, and do it well, but there is little if any diversity or surprise with them, and that has pretty much always been the case.  When you have a band that is much more diverse in what they do like DT, I think it opens up a much wider and more diverse range of subjective expectations across the fanbase, resulting in many more possibilities of those subjective expectations not being met.  And none of that is probably a problem.  But the problem area is when it results in fans then failing to recognize that that failure to meet everybody's subjective expectations is not necessarily the band's problem, and resulting in complaints rather than just a recognition that what the band wanted to do is simply not the same as what "I" wanted them to do, and that that isn't necessarily a failure on the band's part.

[Stadler]

Even that is a fine line though; I suppose there are die-hards that are okay with any album AC/DC puts out, but there's a sort of weird dichotomy.   Fans seem to want this almost impossible tightrope to be walked; different enough, but not too different.  How many times have we heard the complaint that "the albums are stale", then when they change - either personnel, like a drummer, or approach, like with The Astonishing - they've lost the plot. 

Guns'n'Roses are the supreme example of this for me.  Axl did something pretty damn unique with Chinese Democracy, and it's a solid, solid album.  But it wasn't "Appetite" and so it got slagged. 

[TAC]

Is WildRanger back?

[Ben_Jamin]

I have been listening to DT for about 20 years, but I haven't ever engaged much in the online community about their music until recently. And oh boy, people have some opinions. I have come across a couple people saying something like "nobody hates DT more than their fans". Why?

Yeah, some of their stuff is not my favorite thing to listen to either, but I can't imagine any of their music being worthy of so much negative sentiment. Give them a break! Most bands experience lineup changes. Most bands try different things as their career progresses. James is getting older. I could go on and on.

Regardless of everything, this is my favorite band. My taste has changed a lot in the last 20 years (I'm sure yours has, too). I have developed appreciation for metal, synthwave, bluegrass, light rock, folk, etc, but DT is the only music that I have never stopped listening to. I always come back to them.

I can't understand the criticism, they have made so much good music and (as far as I know) are genuinely good men/fathers/husbands. We're fortunate to have them.

Think of this....

Even MP has his opinions about Rush and their "Synth" period.

[Ben_Jamin]

Guns'n'Roses are the supreme example of this for me.  Axl did something pretty damn unique with Chinese Democracy, and it's a solid, solid album.  But it wasn't "Appetite" and so it got slagged.

I listened to that album, and I have to say, it is a really solid album. I do enjoy a lot of songs from it.

[Max Kuehnau]

Why are DT fans as critical as they are you ask? Because quite a few of them are musicians themselves (myself included)

[Ben_Jamin]

Why are DT fans as critical as they are you ask? Because quite a few of them are musicians themselves (myself included)

But can any of them come up with the type of music, play it consistently.

[Jamesman42]

Dream Theater attracts fans who typically like to analyze the ever-loving shit out of their music.

So, it's no surprise that many of those same people will analyze their progression from album to album (or whatever other media) and be overly critical.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

dream theater's music is incredibly complex and intricate. their songs are like musical puzzles, with intricate time signatures, complex chord progressions, and mind-boggling solos. because of this, it naturally attracts a certain type of listener - someone who enjoys digging deep into music, dissecting it, and trying to understand every nuance. dream theater has a reputation for pushing the boundaries of progressive metal and rock. they're not afraid to experiment with different styles and genres, which means their music is often challenging and requires multiple listens to fully grasp. this encourages fans to be more critical and analytical because they want to uncover all the layers and nuances hidden within the music.

additionally, dream theater fans tend to be musicians themselves. the band's technical prowess and virtuosity inspire many people to pick up instruments and learn to play. when you're a musician, you naturally approach music with a more critical ear. you start to notice things like time signature changes, key changes, and complex rhythms that the average listener might not pick up on. another reason for the analytical and critical nature of dream theater fans is the band's discography. they've released a ton of albums over the years, and each one is a deep dive into different musical concepts and themes. fans often compare and contrast the various albums, which leads to discussions about which ones are the best and why.

dream theater's lyrics often tackle deep and philosophical themes. their songs explore topics like existentialism, the human condition, and the meaning of life. this encourages fans to engage with the lyrics on a deeper level, leading to more critical analysis of the band's message and themes. dream theater fans are analytical and critical because the band's music is complex, their experimentation challenges listeners, many fans are musicians themselves, their extensive discography invites comparison, and their lyrics delve into profound themes. it all adds up to a fan base that loves to dissect and discuss every aspect of the band's music.

[TAC]

@ HoSo....some of what I say will sound like kind of a rebuke to what you posted, but it's only a coincidence. I've been mulling some thoughts since the OP went up, and I'm just sitting down now to post them. You just so happened to post some counterpoints to what I was about to post.




First off, to the OP...I swear this thread is a WildRanger creation. Ape, you're new here, and welcome my friend, but WildRanger is a well known former member who created a number of threads by making a statement as some sort of fact by asking a question.


DT IS a progressive rock band. Sure. there's layers and nuances to what they do. Yes. But people need to get over themselves if they think because of that, they are a more critical or analyzing fandom.
Every band's hardcore fans treat their favorite bands the same way.

A lot of you guys don't remember when you had to go buy concert tickets before computers. You'd sleep out for the big shows or at the very least, get there real early. Sometimes, the experience was better than the concert. Lots of talking with other big fans of whatever bands.
You could be in line for AC/DC tickets, and the conversations then are the same we have now. "They were great until Flick Of The Switch. That album blows", and "Fly On The Wall sounds like shit."
These were the music forums before there were actual music forums.
How do we think it was when Rush went synth? Lots of debate, but these were conversations had in person by big fans, or while tailgating at a show.
Those conversations were no different or "less deep" than what goes on here.

Someone mentioned that when they play PMU, the crowd goes crazy. Sure, it's their most popular song, but for those of us that watch their every move, it's please not again.


Sure some hardcore DT fans are musicians. Doesn't make them any more engaged as fans. Again..using my AC/DC example, how many people wanted to be in a band or learned an instrument after hearing them? The answer...lots!



Someone also said it's because we're online that we have strong opinions. I disagree. If you asked me in 1982 about the new Rush album, I would've told you it sucked donkey balls. And I loved Rush when Signals came out. These are conversations we had amongst friends, and they are not because we are on the internet. Not even close. We went to our friends' houses and listened together and picked whatever we were listening to apart if we saw fit.


One thing that do think posting on the internet does negatively is that it is just words, and doesn't take into account the manner in which it was said. I model my posting style as "a couple of guys having a beer talking about music." If I say the new DT album blows to my friend, it comes across much differently in that setting than it does here. If I typed that here, people are like, what's that guy's problem, he's being so negative..
Favoring one album over another, or being ecstatic OR disappointed are normal and there's nothing wrong with a few buddies expressing that. I just think the more hardcore the group of fans are over a certain band, sometimes the discussions can run deep, and that's totally cool. But to think that this is exclusive to Dream Theater is simply not right. EVERY band has their real hardcore fans that dissect everything about them. Yes, even AC/DC.

[Glasser]

I agree with the original post. You don't have to love everything they do to be a fan. They are my overall favorite band and though I love most of their stuff their are albums that I don't revisit at all anymore. However, I would never use the word HATE. They have recorded some of the best music I have ever heard and I will always give everything they release a good long listen before my final verdict.

[MirrorMask]

Even that is a fine line though; I suppose there are die-hards that are okay with any album AC/DC puts out, but there's a sort of weird dichotomy.   Fans seem to want this almost impossible tightrope to be walked; different enough, but not too different.  How many times have we heard the complaint that "the albums are stale", then when they change - either personnel, like a drummer, or approach, like with The Astonishing - they've lost the plot. 

Amen!!!!

[Dream Team]

Great post TAC. Metallica is the biggest metal band in the world but go visit their forums, sheesh talk about negativity. It’s pretty much every band.

[MinistroRaven]

"nobody hates DT more than their fans". Why?

It's called menopause

[Glasser]

"nobody hates DT more than their fans". Why?

It's called menopause

 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I have been listening to DT for about 20 years, but I haven't ever engaged much in the online community about their music until recently. And oh boy, people have some opinions. I have come across a couple people saying something like "nobody hates DT more than their fans". Why?

Yeah, some of their stuff is not my favorite thing to listen to either, but I can't imagine any of their music being worthy of so much negative sentiment. Give them a break! Most bands experience lineup changes. Most bands try different things as their career progresses. James is getting older. I could go on and on.

Regardless of everything, this is my favorite band. My taste has changed a lot in the last 20 years (I'm sure yours has, too). I have developed appreciation for metal, synthwave, bluegrass, light rock, folk, etc, but DT is the only music that I have never stopped listening to. I always come back to them.

I can't understand the criticism, they have made so much good music and (as far as I know) are genuinely good men/fathers/husbands. We're fortunate to have them.

I can't say too much about other fan bases because I do not participate in any other forum or fan outlet.

For sure there has been a lot of different types of criticism. I am not sure if you are referring to one thing or just all criticism in general, but I guess it just comes with the territory. DT has very devoted and critical fans. Keep in mind, a lot of people (me included) think they are some of the best musicians ever in prog/heavy music. I think criticism just comes with that weight...sort of like how super devoted sports fans sometimes like to blast their team. They make pretty dense music and fans just like to analyze and pick it apart.

I try not to go overboard with some types of criticism. If I didn't like an artistic decision I'll say why but I am not blasting them, I don't think. However, I tend to see musicianship and basic competency issues differently and as I mentioned above, it just comes with the territory. If John Petrucci were to get on stage and flub every other note, botch his signature riffs and solos - god forbid this should ever happen - and not be able to keep his instrument in tune or keep proper time...yeah I am going to be pretty critical of that. That is a matter of 'can you do the job anymore' and I have a different feeling about those types of issues. That being said, I probably wouldn't harp on and on about Paris Hilton not being able to sing in tune because well, that just isn't 'Paris Hilton.'

[Wim Kruithof]

But I think part of the issue with DT specifically is that they appeal to a particular type of fan who has high musical standards...

This is spot-on I would say.

Metallica is the biggest metal band in the world but go visit their forums, sheesh talk about negativity.

Indeed. I grew up with Metallica... after glory-years first they were headshotted with (Re)Load, then again when Garage Inc. came out. St. Anger was received with so much negativity as well and then there was Lulu. That was their most bitter pill to swallow and as dedicated as I was, even for me there was a bottom-line. And Lulu crashed that.

Point to make, when there's true love, there will be pain eventually.

[hefdaddy42]

I have been listening to DT for about 20 years, but I haven't ever engaged much in the online community about their music until recently.

This is the source of the disconnect.

The online communities for DT and other bands have literally been developing for decades.  You are just now jumping in.

I've been around for most of that time.  It has all seemed quite natural in the flow.

[Dream Team]

Probably a lot of us went through a similar cycle.

1. OMG have you heard these guys, greatest band ever
2. What the hell? People actually criticize this amazing band?? Losers and whiners!
3. (Years go by) Eh, I’m not loving all the newer stuff, I get some of the criticisms
4. (More years pass) I like some of it and don’t like some of it, who cares, at least the band is still together

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Probably a lot of us went through a similar cycle.

1. OMG have you heard these guys, greatest band ever
2. What the hell? People actually criticize this amazing band?? Losers and whiners!
3. (Years go by) Eh, I’m not loving all the newer stuff, I get some of the criticisms
4. (More years pass) I like some of it and don’t like some of it, who cares, at least the band is still together

This is the perfect summary, IMO. My personal experience was I went through 1-3 in the span of about a year, stalled out on 3 for a few years, but have been on 4 ever since. It's not that I don't have opinions or preferences, it's just that there are some things in life not worth getting all worked up about. I also think that time can make you more thankful.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who get stuck on 3, grow more and more outraged, and then devolve into the worst kind of internet behavior. But it's always important not to give too much credence to the vocal minority.

[bosk1]

I'm with you one 1 and 2, but depart at 3.  For their entire career, I've really loved most of what they've done, while not connecting with some of it.  Almost every album is that way, going all the way back to discovering Images in '92/'93. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I'm with you one 1 and 2, but depart at 3.  For their entire career, I've really loved most of what they've done, while not connecting with some of it.  Almost every album is that way, going all the way back to discovering Images in '92/'93. 

Yea, it's actually quite amazing how consistent they've been. Even DT13, which a lot of people are low on (but I think you're actually quite high on?), I listened to the other day and I was like... Dang. This album has some bangers and underappreciated gems.

[ReaperKK]

Probably a lot of us went through a similar cycle.

1. OMG have you heard these guys, greatest band ever
2. What the hell? People actually criticize this amazing band?? Losers and whiners!
3. (Years go by) Eh, I’m not loving all the newer stuff, I get some of the criticisms
4. (More years pass) I like some of it and don’t like some of it, who cares, at least the band is still together

I've always understood the criticisms of the band. I'm in stage 4 myself. I like most material and my personal low point with the band was the The Astonishing but with DOT they are clearly capable of making some of their best work yet. I'm along for the ride as long as they keep going.

[Stadler]

I've been thinking about this thread more and more lately...   I think to some degree there's a bit of tunnel vision.   I don't buy into any of the "sophisication" arguments; we like what we like, and while I can't speak for anyone else here, I can't honestly say I consciously "decided" to like Dream Theater; they just touched a nerve in the best way.  There's other, complicated music that hasn't, so it's a matter of the intangibles as much as any ret-conning of "why". 

But while I like some things more than others, I think the comment that this is a consistent body of work is really necessary to repeat.  I think all the criticisms are relative; DT is one of those rare bands that don't have a "Dynasty" or a "Rock In A Hard Place" or "Tormato" or "Slang", where perhaps the plot was, if not lost, then at least temporarily misplaced, where the parts just didn't come together.  There are no "Whodunnit"'s or "Arriving UFO"'s or "The Flame"'s... songs that left the essence of the band behind for 4:30.   

[WilliamMunny]

@ Stadler

I'm with you on paragraph 1–the band definitely 'touched a nerve' for me, and I try not to think to hard about the 'why.'

As for paragraph 2–in my humble opinion, DT has certainly 'lost the plot' on a couple of occasions, with The Astonishing serving as the most recent, and most stark example.

What's interesting to me is that I tend to love those 'lost the plot' albums. Slang is a top-5 Def Leppard album for me, I LOVE Tormato, and "The Flame" was the song that got me into Cheap Trick (I was like 8 when it came out, but still).

Unfortunately, with DT, I'm a little more in line with the masses when it comes to things like MP's necessary growls on "A Nightmare to Remember" or JLB's cringworthy rapping on "Honor Thy Father."

Don't get me wrong, the band's catalog is hella-consistent, but there are definitely a few duds in there.

That all said, I don't think there's a band I truly LOVE that has so many albums that I consider 'top-shelf' classics.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

yeah the astonishing is worse than Tormato or any of those other albums listed, lol

[hefdaddy42]

The Astonishing is fine.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I understand why some people don't like The Astonishing, and I think when you take a big swing like that, it's expected that the reception will be mixed. But with that said, I have a lot of respect for any band that is willing to take those big swings. I'd almost rather see my favorite bands swing and miss every once in a while than release a steady stream of 6/10 albums that are inoffensive but boring, and then one day you realize you stopped paying attention somewhere along the way.

[WilliamMunny]

Oh, dear, was not intending to derail this thread with yet another 'Astonishing' convo–although, I was only sharing my opinion, and as always, tried to do so respectfully.

My bigger point was that, for all of my love for the band, I don' think their catalog is any more or less consistent than a number of other bands with large catalogs (i.e., Rush, Kiss, etc.).

[WilliamMunny]

I understand why some people don't like The Astonishing, and I think when you take a big swing like that, it's expected that the reception will be mixed. But with that said, I have a lot of respect for any band that is willing to take those big swings. I'd almost rather see my favorite bands swing and miss every once in a while than release a steady stream of 6/10 albums that are inoffensive but boring, and then one day you realize you stopped paying attention somewhere along the way.

I'm so with you here!