Author Topic: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"  (Read 14961 times)

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Offline FlashCE

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #175 on: November 30, 2023, 06:12:45 PM »
I don't buy James' excuse. He is pitchy as all hell singing in the middle of his range. You can hear this in all the newer songs too.

Offline TheBarstoolWarrior

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #176 on: November 30, 2023, 06:51:50 PM »
^agreed that it is not strictly a range problem

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #177 on: December 01, 2023, 04:47:54 AM »
I don't buy James' excuse. He is pitchy as all hell singing in the middle of his range. You can hear this in all the newer songs too.

^agreed that it is not strictly a range problem

It's not just range. I've spent a fair amount of time here defending him in the past, but there's a point where you just have to call it. It's his entire technique.

Registration (issues with blending head and chest registers for a seamless transition), issues with breath support (getting "off the breath" and singing in his throat/nose), a high larynx (related to the other aforementioned issues because when those technical basics are in place the larynx can't pop up) which causes a "pinched" sound and prevents facility throughout the range; sytlistic choices that have caused bad singing habits (the sneery Nafaryus tone needs to go, it's not cute outside of The Astonishing), I could go on, but what I've noticed is that when he isn't messing around with character voices and over the top improv, the technique - and with it the voice - is still there.

All of this tells me that it's been too long since he's worked with a teacher. Especially as the body changes, the technique needs to be re-solidified and sometimes entirely reworked in order to get the best optimal performance out of the voice for a lifetime. I trust that he's a smart singer and he knows all of this, he just needs to go and do it. All the tea and breathing treatments in the world won't help him if his technique is a mess. That's like patching the roof on a building that has cracks in the foundation.

Offline nikatapi

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #178 on: December 01, 2023, 04:57:28 AM »
I don't buy James' excuse. He is pitchy as all hell singing in the middle of his range. You can hear this in all the newer songs too.

^agreed that it is not strictly a range problem

It's not just range. I've spent a fair amount of time here defending him in the past, but there's a point where you just have to call it. It's his entire technique.

Registration (issues with blending head and chest registers for a seamless transition), issues with breath support (getting "off the breath" and singing in his throat/nose), a high larynx (related to the other aforementioned issues because when those technical basics are in place the larynx can't pop up) which causes a "pinched" sound and prevents facility throughout the range; sytlistic choices that have caused bad singing habits (the sneery Nafaryus tone needs to go, it's not cute outside of The Astonishing), I could go on, but what I've noticed is that when he isn't messing around with character voices and over the top improv, the technique - and with it the voice - is still there.

All of this tells me that it's been too long since he's worked with a teacher. Especially as the body changes, the technique needs to be re-solidified and sometimes entirely reworked in order to get the best optimal performance out of the voice for a lifetime. I trust that he's a smart singer and he knows all of this, he just needs to go and do it. All the tea and breathing treatments in the world won't help him if his technique is a mess. That's like patching the roof on a building that has cracks in the foundation.

Very valid points. Seems like a continuation of bad habits / technique that has seen him in a downward trajectory ever since the Astonishing tour.
Hopefully he will try to review and come up with some improvements that could help sustain his performance.

Offline Indiscipline

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #179 on: December 01, 2023, 06:24:18 AM »
It's not just range. I've spent a fair amount of time here defending him in the past, but there's a point where you just have to call it. It's his entire technique.

Registration (issues with blending head and chest registers for a seamless transition), issues with breath support (getting "off the breath" and singing in his throat/nose), a high larynx (related to the other aforementioned issues because when those technical basics are in place the larynx can't pop up) which causes a "pinched" sound and prevents facility throughout the range; sytlistic choices that have caused bad singing habits (the sneery Nafaryus tone needs to go, it's not cute outside of The Astonishing), I could go on, but what I've noticed is that when he isn't messing around with character voices and over the top improv, the technique - and with it the voice - is still there.

All of this tells me that it's been too long since he's worked with a teacher. Especially as the body changes, the technique needs to be re-solidified and sometimes entirely reworked in order to get the best optimal performance out of the voice for a lifetime. I trust that he's a smart singer and he knows all of this, he just needs to go and do it. All the tea and breathing treatments in the world won't help him if his technique is a mess. That's like patching the roof on a building that has cracks in the foundation.

I love this post and I don't even need to agree with it. I love it because it's respectful, informed (I'm sure the author is at the very  least formally trained singer, most probably a coach), and exhudes admiration and concern rather than entitled disdain.

Seriously, thank you crystalstars.

If I can hypotesise with you (I can't do much more without having the man himself in my studio in front of my piano for at least half an hour), and add to your very valid points, we're talking about a technique (or lack of) that was easy to predict as unsustainable once reaching the age of tissues decadence, right from the start. James has never really sung with his larynx down and he has always preferred to negotiate mezzavoce passages with air (THE voice killer) rather than covering with upper space (please forgive my wording liberties, but I'm on my third language here) and extreme inclination. Furthermore, whenever I've watched him live, I never noticed much abdominal movement, no splat nor hooking, while it was easy to spot the quite high and quick breathing which can be associated to constat belting (the second voice killer). That's a very powerful style in your 20's, but it's a kind of deal with the devil, and I suspect the food poisoning incident just came before and in place of an inevitable breakdown.

I agree on your pitch analysis and I dare to bring on the table a distinct lack of palatine veil's muscular tone (when flat, but I never heard him go sharp) and I strongly and respectfully concur he needs to rethink his technique, and he's possibly 20 years late. Problem his you need rest and time to do that, not tour cycles, even if not extremely intensive. I've been singing in correct opera style four days a week for twenty years and I still needed more than a year to fully recover my instrument once the ventilators focked my throat up, just imagine how difficult must it be for a rock star constantly living on a high stress high stakes schedule.

He needs to put in the work, and I'm sure he does, but I believe he really should be given proper time. 

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #180 on: December 01, 2023, 06:55:14 AM »
Seriously, thank you crystalstars.

You're very welcome and thank you for your knowledgeable analysis also!

I love James, he is my favorite singer and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him and hope that he will pull through these current struggles and come out shining. 🌟

That's a very powerful style in your 20's, but it's a kind of deal with the devil, and I suspect the food poisoning incident just came before and in place of an inevitable breakdown.

I have always theorized that the injury was something that was just waiting to happen, and that the sickness incident was just a catalyst to make it happen sooner. But I believe with his pre-injury belting, constantly bringing weight up (all the way to the tippity-top!) from the bottom, the raspy effects (again, all the way up there, ouch), among other things (some of which you mentioned) and a vocal hemorrhage was just waiting for him on the horizon. The way he was singing at that time was in no way appropriate for a light lyric tenor (or for anyone) and not sustainable long-term.

I think if he could go back to the way he was singing around Score, which is when I feel he was really at the top of his game as a singer, it would be good for him. I know he has always leaned toward more of a CCM, rather than classical (my background, and from your post I surmise yours too) method, which I can't speak to as much, and he's slipped more and more into CCM in recent years which has only been detrimental, but with that said it could be serendipitous for him that the band may be concentrating more on the older material from the Octavarium era, which could serve to help bring back some healthier habits through muscle memory if nothing else.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2023, 07:02:57 AM by crystalstars17 »

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #181 on: December 01, 2023, 06:57:35 AM »
As a guy who a long time ago took singing lessons, I wish I would be so knowledgeable about singing tecniques  :lol I understand half of what you're talking about and I wish I would (still) remember / know more.
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Offline emtee

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #182 on: December 01, 2023, 07:00:18 AM »
James is the biggest X factor moving forward. If he can gets things diagnosed and fixed, DT will have a nice finale to their career.

Offline Stadler

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #183 on: December 01, 2023, 07:48:21 AM »
Funny thing, as I'm reading this, I'm listening to Robert Plant and the Sensational Space Shifters live in LA back in 2016.  And this is a man that was known for his ridiculous range, and almost as famous for LOSING his range.  Well, I don't think he lost it; this is an hour or so of master class singing.  Granted, it's not "Led Zeppelin!!!" but it's amazing, and when - during the last song of the main set, a medley with "Whole Lotta Love" in it, he goes for the gold, HE NAILS IT.   Then in the encore - "Going To California" - it's a subdued performance for the most part, but Robert ad libs the outdo a bit and the voice starts to kick in a bit...  but in EVERY CASE, even when stretching, when he goes for a note, he HITS it.   This is a man that took care of his voice and uses it like the instrument it is.

I know I don't speak for every one, but for me, I don't really care if he can still hit the G#5 or whatever it is, but I do care that if he goes for a C3, he hits the damn C3.  In Bridgeport, this last tour, I thought he was really good - not great though, because there was a stretch in the third song or so where he got really pitchy.  I don't know if it's a volume thing, or a hearing thing, or a human flesh and blood thing, but I think I'd like to see that addressed in some fashion.  The rest will take care of itself.

My humble opinion, only, and as I am not (yet) in the band or not (yet) their trusted advisor, I have no say in the matter.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2023, 07:54:55 AM by Stadler »

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #184 on: December 01, 2023, 10:42:38 AM »
Awesome posts by both crystalstars and Indiscipline (didn't know you were a vocalist expert like crystalstars). It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older (although obviously those are still there). I just hope he does get the help that he needs to once again right the ship, much the same way the rest of the band pushed him to do so at the end of 2002. And if that means doing a bit of down-tuning or altering some of the insane vocal melodies, no problem.

I can't help but think of when Rush surprisingly resurrected the song Circumstances from the Hemispheres album in 2007 - a song where Geddy is singing in the stratosphere. Besides the band tuning down, he altered the vocal melody to something much more reasonable and the result was just as enjoyable. I was happy to be able to see it live, something that wouldn't have happened (or would have been a disaster if it had) if they would've insisted on sticking to the way it was on the album.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #185 on: December 01, 2023, 11:27:43 AM »
Funny thing, as I'm reading this, I'm listening to Robert Plant and the Sensational Space Shifters live in LA back in 2016.  And this is a man that was known for his ridiculous range, and almost as famous for LOSING his range.  Well, I don't think he lost it; this is an hour or so of master class singing.  Granted, it's not "Led Zeppelin!!!" but it's amazing, and when - during the last song of the main set, a medley with "Whole Lotta Love" in it, he goes for the gold, HE NAILS IT.   Then in the encore - "Going To California" - it's a subdued performance for the most part, but Robert ad libs the outdo a bit and the voice starts to kick in a bit...  but in EVERY CASE, even when stretching, when he goes for a note, he HITS it.   This is a man that took care of his voice and uses it like the instrument it is.
Agreed with all of this.  Plant is a master.
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Offline HOF

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #186 on: December 01, 2023, 05:25:38 PM »
What I don’t quite get with James is he’s studied with several (purportedly) reputable vocal coaches in the past. Not sure why he would have stopped doing that, especially if age was catching up with him.

Offline Glasser

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #187 on: December 03, 2023, 11:11:43 AM »
What I don’t quite get with James is he’s studied with several (purportedly) reputable vocal coaches in the past. Not sure why he would have stopped doing that, especially if age was catching up with him.

His food poisoning ruptured vocal chord injury was a shame. I know, through interviews in the past, he did get help from his mentors to recover and strengthen his chords again but that injury was brutal. All considered, he did very well since that incident. Now with age and strenuous and demanding touring its taken its toll.

Offline TheBarstoolWarrior

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #188 on: December 03, 2023, 03:55:42 PM »
Do we know for a fact that he is not being coached by anyone presently?

Offline HOF

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #189 on: December 03, 2023, 09:10:27 PM »
Do we know for a fact that he is not being coached by anyone presently?

I don't know one way or the other, just responding to the implication that he wasn't. All I know is that he was for some time so it would seem weird for him to have these problems, but I imagine vocal coaching is more art than science with a million different opinions and beliefs on what is the right way to do things.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #190 on: December 03, 2023, 09:16:13 PM »
His food poisoning ruptured vocal chord injury was a shame. I know, through interviews in the past, he did get help from his mentors to recover and strengthen his chords again but that injury was brutal.

In the alternate universe I wonder how things would have played out if he continued to sing like he did in the years leading up to the injury. There is no way that was sustainable.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #191 on: December 04, 2023, 06:25:44 AM »
Awesome posts by both crystalstars and Indiscipline (didn't know you were a vocalist expert like crystalstars). It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older (although obviously those are still there). I just hope he does get the help that he needs to once again right the ship, much the same way the rest of the band pushed him to do so at the end of 2002. And if that means doing a bit of down-tuning or altering some of the insane vocal melodies, no problem.

I can't help but think of when Rush surprisingly resurrected the song Circumstances from the Hemispheres album in 2007 - a song where Geddy is singing in the stratosphere. Besides the band tuning down, he altered the vocal melody to something much more reasonable and the result was just as enjoyable. I was happy to be able to see it live, something that wouldn't have happened (or would have been a disaster if it had) if they would've insisted on sticking to the way it was on the album.

Some of this is psychological with the audience too, in the sense that, our brains look for patterns, look for familiarity, look for synchronicity.   Paul Stanley was using alternative melodies for songs all the way back to the early 80's; there's a really good video from one of the last first-era makeup shows, in Sydney Australia, and he sings an alternate melody in the verse of Detroit Rock City (I don't believe it was driven by vocal limitations, since a) his voice was still VERY strong then, and b) the alternate melody is probably harder to sing) but after two repetitions, one's ear gets it.  It's "normal" so to speak.   When vocalists hit clams - think of the live Fountain of Salmacis on the UK version of Genesis' Three Sides Live - your ear notices it.  So when James does go out of pitch it stands out way more than any altered melody will.  I'm sure some "fan" (in quotes for a reason) will gripe about not hitting the F#5 or something, but 95% of us will take the performance for what it is, and celebrate how he can still hit the notes he's being asked to hit.

Offline DanLore

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #192 on: December 04, 2023, 09:29:47 AM »
Awesome posts by both crystalstars and Indiscipline (didn't know you were a vocalist expert like crystalstars). It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older (although obviously those are still there). I just hope he does get the help that he needs to once again right the ship, much the same way the rest of the band pushed him to do so at the end of 2002. And if that means doing a bit of down-tuning or altering some of the insane vocal melodies, no problem.

I can't help but think of when Rush surprisingly resurrected the song Circumstances from the Hemispheres album in 2007 - a song where Geddy is singing in the stratosphere. Besides the band tuning down, he altered the vocal melody to something much more reasonable and the result was just as enjoyable. I was happy to be able to see it live, something that wouldn't have happened (or would have been a disaster if it had) if they would've insisted on sticking to the way it was on the album.

Some of this is psychological with the audience too, in the sense that, our brains look for patterns, look for familiarity, look for synchronicity.   Paul Stanley was using alternative melodies for songs all the way back to the early 80's; there's a really good video from one of the last first-era makeup shows, in Sydney Australia, and he sings an alternate melody in the verse of Detroit Rock City (I don't believe it was driven by vocal limitations, since a) his voice was still VERY strong then, and b) the alternate melody is probably harder to sing) but after two repetitions, one's ear gets it.  It's "normal" so to speak.   When vocalists hit clams - think of the live Fountain of Salmacis on the UK version of Genesis' Three Sides Live - your ear notices it.  So when James does go out of pitch it stands out way more than any altered melody will.  I'm sure some "fan" (in quotes for a reason) will gripe about not hitting the F#5 or something, but 95% of us will take the performance for what it is, and celebrate how he can still hit the notes he's being asked to hit.

Phil has vocal clams?  Really? :D

Offline JeopardousRaven

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #193 on: December 04, 2023, 06:32:30 PM »
I always preferred the live version of Fountain of Salmacis on 3SL to the studio version, mainly because of how poor the production on Nursery Cryme is. I never really noticed off notes by Phil on that track. To be honest, I prefer the live version of almost any Genesis track to the studio version. Just listen to the double drumming on the Seconds Out Firth of Fifth solo and tell me it's not incredible. Anyways...

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Offline Stadler

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #194 on: December 05, 2023, 06:20:09 AM »
I always preferred the live version of Fountain of Salmacis on 3SL to the studio version, mainly because of how poor the production on Nursery Cryme is. I never really noticed off notes by Phil on that track. To be honest, I prefer the live version of almost any Genesis track to the studio version. Just listen to the double drumming on the Seconds Out Firth of Fifth solo and tell me it's not incredible. Anyways...

"AWAY FROM ME COLD-BLOODED WOMAN, YOUR THIRST IS NOT MIIIIIIIIIIIIIINEEEEE"

I don't know; maybe it's me, but I always LOVED Phil's live vocals.  They always seemed so... authentic and real to me.  I know that's an odd word to use when talking about live vocals, especially in the 70s and early 80s, but it's the word that fits the best. 

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #195 on: December 06, 2023, 05:17:41 AM »
It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older

It's both, but it's definitely not "just age" as many suspect. As a singer gets older they need to be keeping up with the changes in the body by constantly adjusting their technique.

Do we know for a fact that he is not being coached by anyone presently?

We don't. I don't know him personally. It's speculation based on what I am hearing live (and in live recordings) these days with a trained ear.

All I know is that he was for some time so it would seem weird for him to have these problems

Without at least a "checkup" on a regular basis with a second set of ears, bad habits can creep in. Especially as the voice changes with age, illness, injury/scar tissue, too much belting, years of touring, etc taking their toll, all the more does even the best professional who has built a solidly reliable technique need to check in with a good technician once in a while. Think of it as a tuneup. It's just necessary maintenance.

I agree on your pitch analysis and I dare to bring on the table a distinct lack of palatine veil's muscular tone (when flat, but I never heard him go sharp) and I strongly and respectfully concur he needs to rethink his technique, and he's possibly 20 years late.

Very possibly. I agree about the palate. I also think he has some issues with vowels, and spreading. This is a trifecta of bad habits that can bring down the best technique over time.

I don't think all of these habits are entirely new, either. As early as the early 2000's you can hear him scooping up to a higher note with an audible "wah" syllable before the word. This tells me it's a long-standing issue with approach to the note that has worsened, perhaps because (speculation alert) it has not been addressed. You can hear this as early as Chaos in Motion but it's at its worst when it becomes a full on "yyyah" when attempting the F# in Learning to Live on the recent I&W anniversary tour.

Problem his you need rest and time to do that, not tour cycles, even if not extremely intensive.

He needs to put in the work, and I'm sure he does, but I believe he really should be given proper time.

And this is exactly what he never got. After the injury, he should've been on vocal rest, not on tour.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2023, 05:23:05 AM by crystalstars17 »

Offline porcacultor

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #196 on: December 06, 2023, 06:51:27 AM »
One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).

It seems like the pitchiness isn't a problem in those (at the expense of a more "rubato" tempo, which is a perk of singing alone). Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?

As a non-expert, it feels like a bit of a night and day contrast between those videos where he hits the notes in his living room and live recordings of the most problematic moments (where not only is pitch an issue, but at some points his voice feels "weak", which I really don't know whether it's just a vocal issue or a live mixing issue, with EQ/compression either being applied poorly or not at all for his voice to properly "face" the rest of the [much louder] instruments).

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #197 on: December 06, 2023, 07:05:54 AM »
One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).

It seems like the pitchiness isn't a problem in those (at the expense of a more "rubato" tempo, which is a perk of singing alone). Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?

As a non-expert, it feels like a bit of a night and day contrast between those videos where he hits the notes in his living room and live recordings of the most problematic moments (where not only is pitch an issue, but at some points his voice feels "weak", which I really don't know whether it's just a vocal issue or a live mixing issue, with EQ/compression either being applied poorly or not at all for his voice to properly "face" the rest of the [much louder] instruments).
Good question and I look forward to crystalstars' and Indiscipline's responses, but from my non-expert viewpoint, it's much easier to do something as a one-off at your house that lasts at best a couple minutes in comparison to being on tour for over a month at a time, traveling from city to city and performing a 2 hour show (or more) several times a week. Touring will be a drain for anyone, but especially a 60 year old vocalist.
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Offline lightningbolt

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #198 on: December 06, 2023, 07:55:34 AM »
One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).

I'm no vocal expert, but the Cameo version of Endless Sacrifice on YouTube was from me purchasing that as a gift for a few of my DT buddies.  FWIW, I thought he did a nice job on it  ;D

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #199 on: December 08, 2023, 05:33:00 AM »
One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).

Oh haha, my husband keeps threatening to get me one of these for Christmas  :omg: :biggrin: I'm casually wondering if he'd sing a cover song, because there are two that I can think of (a Firewind song, and an another song originally sung by Michael Kiske) that I'd love to hear him sing, but I digress...

Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?

I haven't seen more than a few of them, but from what I've heard, yes. Lots of the same technical bugs (the scooping up to the higher note, the "wah" before a syllable) that often pop up in live settings for him, if not to the same extent.

I can't speak to the "live mixing issue" if there is one as that's outside of my knowledge, but maybe Indiscipline or someone else can address that. I do wonder whether he has a tendency when singing live to do more pushing than he does when in the studio. The Cameo videos may be more like the studio setting for him so they sound less pushed. You don't get the sort of screaming up to the high notes as you would in a live stage performance. Pushing will cause him to bring more weight up from the chest voice into the top causing an imbalance of registration and a constrained top. Add pushing for volume on top of that and it's a perfect storm.  :facepalm:

Offline porcacultor

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #200 on: December 08, 2023, 09:07:17 AM »
One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).

Oh haha, my husband keeps threatening to get me one of these for Christmas  :omg: :biggrin: I'm casually wondering if he'd sing a cover song, because there are two that I can think of (a Firewind song, and an another song originally sung by Michael Kiske) that I'd love to hear him sing, but I digress...

Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?

I haven't seen more than a few of them, but from what I've heard, yes. Lots of the same technical bugs (the scooping up to the higher note, the "wah" before a syllable) that often pop up in live settings for him, if not to the same extent.

I can't speak to the "live mixing issue" if there is one as that's outside of my knowledge, but maybe Indiscipline or someone else can address that. I do wonder whether he has a tendency when singing live to do more pushing than he does when in the studio. The Cameo videos may be more like the studio setting for him so they sound less pushed. You don't get the sort of screaming up to the high notes as you would in a live stage performance. Pushing will cause him to bring more weight up from the chest voice into the top causing an imbalance of registration and a constrained top. Add pushing for volume on top of that and it's a perfect storm.  :facepalm:

Oh wow! That does make sense. In my informal singing explorations at home (where I try not to over exert myself, but probably isn't a good idea to do without taking classes), I can definitely relate to the difference between scooping up to notes and just managing to "hit it" from muscle memory.

I really wish he'd take this downtime in band activities to "re-center" himself technique wise (and for all I know he may be doing that). Having done the whole top 100 list thing for the band (and thus showing some choice cuts to my wife, who isn't familiar with the band and is digging a bunch of it), it became even clearer to me how James is the band's (not that) "secret" weapon. His pop sensibilities and vocal character really set DT apart from other groups in the same genre, which makes this whole live issues situation more painful to witness as a fan.

I got a bit of flack on another topic for saying I thought James was "delivering the goods" in the last Rock in Rio performance, but I do honestly think that was a good night for him. Not "perfect",  but in general I thought his efforts blended in with the rest of the band. Taking a few samples from the Dreamsonic tour in particular, however, (I remember picking out a performance of Solitary Shell to check out), it got a little more complicated. Like a whole chorus off-key as soon as the notes got a little higher. Which isn't to say he isn't trying hard, what I'm learning with these insights from you and Indiscipline is that maybe he's trying too hard in a not-recommended direction.

Offline bosk1

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #201 on: December 08, 2023, 01:08:58 PM »
Good technique or bad, it's just easier to sound good on a single song, such as in those cameo videos.  For one thing, it's shorter.  As an amateur rock singer, I can fake my way through a single song any time and sound decent.  Maybe I'm singing it mostly correctly.  And maybe I'm using horrible technique to fake my way through it.  Either way, I can sound pretty good for 4 minutes, even if I'm using bad technique, because the voice isn't going to tire out that quickly.  When I got to join Y&T onstage several years ago, I got all kinds of compliments and had a few people telling me I "blew Jeff Scott Soto off the stage" (he came onstage as a guest after me), although I appreciated the compliments, I tried to remind people that I had the "easy" job of just doing one song.  Again, I can fake my way through one song and sound good.  That's WAY different than having to sing an entire set.  So James sounding good on the cameo videos during the same timeframe that he may have struggled through some live shows is not surprising.

Second, it's a lot easier to hit the right notes when you can hear yourself so much clearer and aren't competing with other instruments, crowd noise, etc.  So, again, not a surprise or a big mystery that he might be able to sound better in a cameo than in some live settings.
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Offline porcacultor

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #202 on: December 08, 2023, 01:17:43 PM »
Good technique or bad, it's just easier to sound good on a single song, such as in those cameo videos.  For one thing, it's shorter.  As an amateur rock singer, I can fake my way through a single song any time and sound decent.  Maybe I'm singing it mostly correctly.  And maybe I'm using horrible technique to fake my way through it.  Either way, I can sound pretty good for 4 minutes, even if I'm using bad technique, because the voice isn't going to tire out that quickly.  When I got to join Y&T onstage several years ago, I got all kinds of compliments and had a few people telling me I "blew Jeff Scott Soto off the stage" (he came onstage as a guest after me), although I appreciated the compliments, I tried to remind people that I had the "easy" job of just doing one song.  Again, I can fake my way through one song and sound good.  That's WAY different than having to sing an entire set.  So James sounding good on the cameo videos during the same timeframe that he may have struggled through some live shows is not surprising.

Second, it's a lot easier to hit the right notes when you can hear yourself so much clearer and aren't competing with other instruments, crowd noise, etc.  So, again, not a surprise or a big mystery that he might be able to sound better in a cameo than in some live settings.

Absolutely agree that the different settings influence things (but way to go singing onstage with Y&T!)

About the second point, however, it makes sense but in-ear monitors have come a long way. I haven't had the experience of being onstage with a pair, but from what I've heard from other musicians and singers the isolation seems to be the real deal (especially if they're the custom-fitted variety). It shouldn't be a problem for James to hear himself if he's using those, but if he's relying on stage monitors (as in speaker wedges at the front of the stage) that's a whole 'nother story (I'm only even mentioning in-ears because I remember reading years ago about DT switching to that type of monitoring, but I don't know if that applied to the whole band).

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #203 on: December 08, 2023, 01:53:32 PM »
Unless things have changed, they all use IEMs now. Just look at any photos of their stage - no wedges anywhere.
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Offline Animal

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #204 on: December 08, 2023, 02:28:25 PM »
Great posts by crystalstars and Indiscipline. It's nice to read some thoughts by people who actually understand vocal technique while appreciating James and seeing his technical issues at the same time. I'll just add my two cents.

James's technique was never perfect but which rock or metal vocalist's is? I think there are some additional reasons causing his decline to be more pronounced than that of many of his fellow singers. The chief one of them is the one that also made him such a great band mate - his nice and agreeable character. Watching all these early live videos, you get the feeling that he was like "just throw anything at me, super-high range, rasp, screams - sure, I can do it. And if I am not feeling well? Ok, I¨ll suck it up and power through."
   He was probably never the type of guy to tell his mates: "Not feeling well, I am going to take it easy tonight." Or "my voice is shot, can we cancel the show"? It's just not how he is made up.
   Later, watching the videos from Awake tour, you just have to marvel at his resilience - right after the injury when he should have been resting, he was still giving it his all. It was a make or break tour for the band and he was not the kind of guy to let them down. Even much later, watching Live Scenes, you still see how hard he was going -  even though his voice was at 100 % that night, he still cranked out some really good performances.
   And thanks to Jaime Vendera, James's vocal coach later down the road, we know that James would sometimes go as far as using cortisone injections for important gigs when he felt his voice could fail him otherwise (according to Vendera, cortisone will allow you to sing like your voice has been magically repaired, but it will also make you feel kind of invincible - you are at the risk  of pushing way too hard, because you just do not feel the pain that would stop you from that).

Which brings me to the other point - vocal coaches. For all we know, James might have been working with a coach all these years till today and he could still have been easily ruining his voice. The only vocal approach that is tried and tested over long period of times is bel canto - and even many opera vocal coaches will still get it wrong every now and then, ruining their singer's voices by making lighter voices push too hard (Renata Tebaldi being a notable example), making large voices do the opposite or overusing some not-always-so-sound pieces of advice, like "sing to the mask".
When you get to the rock and metal vocal coaching business, the situation gets much worse. Many coaches are just phonies spouting nonsense , let's say about safe way of rasp.(Peple claiming that James did not use proper technique to do his Awake vocals are just ignorant - I mean, of you try to sing like this without proper technique, you won't finish a phrase, let alone a song. Let alone a whole show.  But even with proper technique, this is not sustainable - or it is, but in the same way as smoking two packs a day is sustainable. Some people live long and healthy lives even then, but this is because they were blessed with resilient body, not because they had utilized a safe cigarette smoking technique.)

There are some other rock and metal vocal coaches who are not complete crooks, but still just make their careers out of giving some pretty basic advice, like drinking tea, doing good warm-ups etc. When it comes to complicated issues like navigating passagio, they are clueless. Most of them would probably say that singing with high larynx the way James does is ok, as long as "you do it properly". So, to finally make my point, even if James does use a coach, chances are the coach won't know what to do with his voice. In the end, with vocal coaches, as in many other lines of business, a more famous a coach, more likely he is to be not that competent, just good at making their clients feel good about themselves.

The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.

And finally, there are DT vocal melodies, with their often crazy high tessitura (something like the average pitch). It is not really the high notes James had to hit, like Fsharp in Learning to Live. It is just the sheer amount of time you have to spend hanging around high C or above to sing stuff like Images and Words. This is just not sustainable, unless your natural voice is even higher that a normal tenor, which James's is not. He just could sing it at the time so he did it, but any classically trained vocal coach would tell you that IaW songs would kill any tenor voice over time (compare that to ACOS, where James spends a lot more time in a normal tenor range, hoovering around E4, rarely going above G4 - how much more relaxed it sounds - it does because this was his sustainable range, this was where he really was Freddie 2nd ed.).

Add to that the amount of touring and you have a perfect recipe for disaster. Considering all of the above, you actually have to start marvel how, for so many years, James's voice held up so well, despite all the abuse. It seems that as late as in 2014 or 2015, he was still pretty impressive live, though he had always had off-nights.

As a fan, it grieves me as much as anyone to see him struggle like he does now. But he was always fighting an extremely uphill battle, the battle that almost anyone would have been bound to lose a lot earlier than James did.

And this is why I can't really stand some of the entitled and ignorant fans who keep bashing him and calling for him be fired. This is both mean and stupid. And hypocritical because, let's be honest, if overwhelming majority of people were in James's shoes, they would keep going too, like he does. (Indiscipline had a great post on what singers losing their voices go through in some other thread). Of course, wishing (and saying aloud) he would make the decision to retire on his own is something else entirely, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you choose your words carefully, ideally the same words you would use when talking to your old friend. Because, and I might be a bit romantic or sentimental, the guys who gave me so many great moments are, in a way, like my friends. It is definitely not a typical producer-consumer relationship.

Sorry for the rant (This is by far my longest post at DTF). But where else should I speak my mind about the burning issues that no one in my normal gives a rat's ass about?

Offline TheBarstoolWarrior

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #205 on: December 08, 2023, 07:03:00 PM »
Great posts by crystalstars and Indiscipline. It's nice to read some thoughts by people who actually understand vocal technique while appreciating James and seeing his technical issues at the same time. I'll just add my two cents.

James's technique was never perfect but which rock or metal vocalist's is? I think there are some additional reasons causing his decline to be more pronounced than that of many of his fellow singers. The chief one of them is the one that also made him such a great band mate - his nice and agreeable character. Watching all these early live videos, you get the feeling that he was like "just throw anything at me, super-high range, rasp, screams - sure, I can do it. And if I am not feeling well? Ok, I¨ll suck it up and power through."
   He was probably never the type of guy to tell his mates: "Not feeling well, I am going to take it easy tonight." Or "my voice is shot, can we cancel the show"? It's just not how he is made up.
   Later, watching the videos from Awake tour, you just have to marvel at his resilience - right after the injury when he should have been resting, he was still giving it his all. It was a make or break tour for the band and he was not the kind of guy to let them down. Even much later, watching Live Scenes, you still see how hard he was going -  even though his voice was at 100 % that night, he still cranked out some really good performances.
   And thanks to Jaime Vendera, James's vocal coach later down the road, we know that James would sometimes go as far as using cortisone injections for important gigs when he felt his voice could fail him otherwise (according to Vendera, cortisone will allow you to sing like your voice has been magically repaired, but it will also make you feel kind of invincible - you are at the risk  of pushing way too hard, because you just do not feel the pain that would stop you from that).

Which brings me to the other point - vocal coaches. For all we know, James might have been working with a coach all these years till today and he could still have been easily ruining his voice. The only vocal approach that is tried and tested over long period of times is bel canto - and even many opera vocal coaches will still get it wrong every now and then, ruining their singer's voices by making lighter voices push too hard (Renata Tebaldi being a notable example), making large voices do the opposite or overusing some not-always-so-sound pieces of advice, like "sing to the mask".
When you get to the rock and metal vocal coaching business, the situation gets much worse. Many coaches are just phonies spouting nonsense , let's say about safe way of rasp.(Peple claiming that James did not use proper technique to do his Awake vocals are just ignorant - I mean, of you try to sing like this without proper technique, you won't finish a phrase, let alone a song. Let alone a whole show.  But even with proper technique, this is not sustainable - or it is, but in the same way as smoking two packs a day is sustainable. Some people live long and healthy lives even then, but this is because they were blessed with resilient body, not because they had utilized a safe cigarette smoking technique.)

There are some other rock and metal vocal coaches who are not complete crooks, but still just make their careers out of giving some pretty basic advice, like drinking tea, doing good warm-ups etc. When it comes to complicated issues like navigating passagio, they are clueless. Most of them would probably say that singing with high larynx the way James does is ok, as long as "you do it properly". So, to finally make my point, even if James does use a coach, chances are the coach won't know what to do with his voice. In the end, with vocal coaches, as in many other lines of business, a more famous a coach, more likely he is to be not that competent, just good at making their clients feel good about themselves.

The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.

And finally, there are DT vocal melodies, with their often crazy high tessitura (something like the average pitch). It is not really the high notes James had to hit, like Fsharp in Learning to Live. It is just the sheer amount of time you have to spend hanging around high C or above to sing stuff like Images and Words. This is just not sustainable, unless your natural voice is even higher that a normal tenor, which James's is not. He just could sing it at the time so he did it, but any classically trained vocal coach would tell you that IaW songs would kill any tenor voice over time (compare that to ACOS, where James spends a lot more time in a normal tenor range, hoovering around E4, rarely going above G4 - how much more relaxed it sounds - it does because this was his sustainable range, this was where he really was Freddie 2nd ed.).

Add to that the amount of touring and you have a perfect recipe for disaster. Considering all of the above, you actually have to start marvel how, for so many years, James's voice held up so well, despite all the abuse. It seems that as late as in 2014 or 2015, he was still pretty impressive live, though he had always had off-nights.

As a fan, it grieves me as much as anyone to see him struggle like he does now. But he was always fighting an extremely uphill battle, the battle that almost anyone would have been bound to lose a lot earlier than James did.

And this is why I can't really stand some of the entitled and ignorant fans who keep bashing him and calling for him be fired. This is both mean and stupid. And hypocritical because, let's be honest, if overwhelming majority of people were in James's shoes, they would keep going too, like he does. (Indiscipline had a great post on what singers losing their voices go through in some other thread). Of course, wishing (and saying aloud) he would make the decision to retire on his own is something else entirely, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you choose your words carefully, ideally the same words you would use when talking to your old friend. Because, and I might be a bit romantic or sentimental, the guys who gave me so many great moments are, in a way, like my friends. It is definitely not a typical producer-consumer relationship.

Sorry for the rant (This is by far my longest post at DTF). But where else should I speak my mind about the burning issues that no one in my normal gives a rat's ass about?

I like the I&W stuff as much as the next guy, but really? Not unlike Pavarotti? Seems a bit of a reach to be honest.

Offline TAC

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #206 on: December 08, 2023, 07:14:27 PM »
 :lol

I know, right?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Animal

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #207 on: December 08, 2023, 10:12:12 PM »


The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.



I like the I&W stuff as much as the next guy, but really? Not unlike Pavarotti? Seems a bit of a reach to be honest.


It might but it is not, IMO, as long as we are talking about pure natural talent. Both had extremely distinctive timbres and crazy amount of harmonics in their voices, something that does set a singer apart.
   The difference in how the two talents were realized is something else though. Pavarotti is what happens if you take a great natural voice and couple it with perfect technique, good coaching and repertoire choice, plus careful vocal management. James is what happens if none of the four applies. It feels weird to say that he wasted his talent, considering the career he had, but in a way, he did. And no, IaW is not the best showcase of his true potential, for the reasons I have talked about before. It is just too damn high for almost any singer to be able to sound their best. I never realized how much talent James  had used to have early on until I heard early live recordings of The Killing Hand (which was written for Charlie, so the tessitura is a lot more reasonable, despite all the high screams James uses to embelish the song).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 11:22:49 PM by Animal »

Offline MHStrawn

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #208 on: December 08, 2023, 10:41:33 PM »
Most here are probably more engage / informed than me regarding LaBrie's ability to replicate studio stuff live. 

I've always thought JLB was the weakest point in the band live simply bc he couldn't replicate his vocals very consistently after rupturing his vocal chords.  My biggest issue, however, is in the last 10 years he's SO BREATHY live.  Does every word have to sound like he's been asked by a doctor to breath deeply? 

But I also sympathize with any technically gifted singer who's now in his 50's, 60's....the human voice wasn't meant to do at 58 what it could do at 23...simple as that. ANd frankly JLB's voice has remained pretty strong over the years since it "recovered".  It's kind of a no-win situation for them. 


Offline Indiscipline

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Re: JLB - "I can't sing like that anymore"
« Reply #209 on: December 09, 2023, 06:15:23 AM »
Great posts by crystalstars and Indiscipline. It's nice to read some thoughts by people who actually understand vocal technique while appreciating James and seeing his technical issues at the same time. I'll just add my two cents.

James's technique was never perfect but which rock or metal vocalist's is? I think there are some additional reasons causing his decline to be more pronounced than that of many of his fellow singers. The chief one of them is the one that also made him such a great band mate - his nice and agreeable character. Watching all these early live videos, you get the feeling that he was like "just throw anything at me, super-high range, rasp, screams - sure, I can do it. And if I am not feeling well? Ok, I¨ll suck it up and power through."
   He was probably never the type of guy to tell his mates: "Not feeling well, I am going to take it easy tonight." Or "my voice is shot, can we cancel the show"? It's just not how he is made up.
   Later, watching the videos from Awake tour, you just have to marvel at his resilience - right after the injury when he should have been resting, he was still giving it his all. It was a make or break tour for the band and he was not the kind of guy to let them down. Even much later, watching Live Scenes, you still see how hard he was going -  even though his voice was at 100 % that night, he still cranked out some really good performances.
   And thanks to Jaime Vendera, James's vocal coach later down the road, we know that James would sometimes go as far as using cortisone injections for important gigs when he felt his voice could fail him otherwise (according to Vendera, cortisone will allow you to sing like your voice has been magically repaired, but it will also make you feel kind of invincible - you are at the risk  of pushing way too hard, because you just do not feel the pain that would stop you from that).

Which brings me to the other point - vocal coaches. For all we know, James might have been working with a coach all these years till today and he could still have been easily ruining his voice. The only vocal approach that is tried and tested over long period of times is bel canto - and even many opera vocal coaches will still get it wrong every now and then, ruining their singer's voices by making lighter voices push too hard (Renata Tebaldi being a notable example), making large voices do the opposite or overusing some not-always-so-sound pieces of advice, like "sing to the mask".
When you get to the rock and metal vocal coaching business, the situation gets much worse. Many coaches are just phonies spouting nonsense , let's say about safe way of rasp.(Peple claiming that James did not use proper technique to do his Awake vocals are just ignorant - I mean, of you try to sing like this without proper technique, you won't finish a phrase, let alone a song. Let alone a whole show.  But even with proper technique, this is not sustainable - or it is, but in the same way as smoking two packs a day is sustainable. Some people live long and healthy lives even then, but this is because they were blessed with resilient body, not because they had utilized a safe cigarette smoking technique.)

There are some other rock and metal vocal coaches who are not complete crooks, but still just make their careers out of giving some pretty basic advice, like drinking tea, doing good warm-ups etc. When it comes to complicated issues like navigating passagio, they are clueless. Most of them would probably say that singing with high larynx the way James does is ok, as long as "you do it properly". So, to finally make my point, even if James does use a coach, chances are the coach won't know what to do with his voice. In the end, with vocal coaches, as in many other lines of business, a more famous a coach, more likely he is to be not that competent, just good at making their clients feel good about themselves.

The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.

And finally, there are DT vocal melodies, with their often crazy high tessitura (something like the average pitch). It is not really the high notes James had to hit, like Fsharp in Learning to Live. It is just the sheer amount of time you have to spend hanging around high C or above to sing stuff like Images and Words. This is just not sustainable, unless your natural voice is even higher that a normal tenor, which James's is not. He just could sing it at the time so he did it, but any classically trained vocal coach would tell you that IaW songs would kill any tenor voice over time (compare that to ACOS, where James spends a lot more time in a normal tenor range, hoovering around E4, rarely going above G4 - how much more relaxed it sounds - it does because this was his sustainable range, this was where he really was Freddie 2nd ed.).

Add to that the amount of touring and you have a perfect recipe for disaster. Considering all of the above, you actually have to start marvel how, for so many years, James's voice held up so well, despite all the abuse. It seems that as late as in 2014 or 2015, he was still pretty impressive live, though he had always had off-nights.

As a fan, it grieves me as much as anyone to see him struggle like he does now. But he was always fighting an extremely uphill battle, the battle that almost anyone would have been bound to lose a lot earlier than James did.

And this is why I can't really stand some of the entitled and ignorant fans who keep bashing him and calling for him be fired. This is both mean and stupid. And hypocritical because, let's be honest, if overwhelming majority of people were in James's shoes, they would keep going too, like he does. (Indiscipline had a great post on what singers losing their voices go through in some other thread). Of course, wishing (and saying aloud) he would make the decision to retire on his own is something else entirely, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you choose your words carefully, ideally the same words you would use when talking to your old friend. Because, and I might be a bit romantic or sentimental, the guys who gave me so many great moments are, in a way, like my friends. It is definitely not a typical producer-consumer relationship.

Sorry for the rant (This is by far my longest post at DTF). But where else should I speak my mind about the burning issues that no one in my normal gives a rat's ass about?

There's a lot of love in that post, Animal, and it's really commendable. There is also some love-driven hyperbole (I'm ok with everything love-driven and definitely a sucker for hyperbole per se) and a handful of misconceptions about belcanto/Tebaldi/Pavarotti I won't address here lest boring everyone to tears (but I would love to discuss in another thread or at the pub). I'd like to point out a couple of things though:

1) Comparing opera singers' careers and modus operandi (no pun intended) to not opera singers' ones never helps. Every aspect and focus are different (again, a tale for another thread, but - without going into the physical mechanics - just think about decibels, frequency and venue of performance, pay grade, etc.) the same way, say,  a marathon runner and a 100m dasher are different.

I'd say even comparing rock singers' careers would not be much productive. For example, on a post above, Stadler (without making unfair comparisons, mind you) was talking about Plant, his singing intelligence, and the way he's still able (at 75 I believe) to excellently pick his spots. Well, Mr Plant (please Stads stop me whenever I'm incorrect) had a first part of career in which he basically conquered the world by unsustainable singing i.e. the vocal deal with the devil. When Zep disbanded he was roughly the same age James was when recording Awake and basically range-shot and coarse. Now, I don't know what Plant did to "recover" or resist age, but I know Plant - from 1980 on - could definitely afford to sing whatever he liked, in the key and range he pleased, whenever he felt like, and to have every single component of the recording/performing/touring experience catered to his needs, the needs of a legend. James, not for unfairness but for the nature of the beast, never had such luxury. On the other hand, Bruce had a workhorse career in a phenomenally consistent shape, but then again Bruce is basically technique and energy incarnate. Then there's Kiske, but the jury is still out about wether he's actually a human being. See? Comparing careers is fun, but it hardly helps to analyse problems.

2) No matter what sort of vocal coach they employ, the vocalists we are talking about are world class singers spending decades in symbiosis with an instrument they know inside out, and I promise no coach can force them to take dangerous paths without their fully aware consent. It's always a deal made weighing losses and gains. The problem nowadays is we are dealing for the fist time in history, hence with no previous operative experience, with The 60/70 Years Old Touring Rock-Metal Vocalist, which could be said is as much a singularity as a 60/70 years old pornstar.