Live at Budokan Appreciation/Discussion Thread

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Again, no one is going to agree with me but I think their best live release is Breaking the Fourth Wall. Budokan should be top 3 so in that sense I agree it's one of the best, but it's not the same level for me as 4th Wall or even Luna Park.

As mentioned above, I'll agree totally. Fourth Wall and Luna Park are my favorites as well. The reason I like Luna Park just that little more, is that it's brought-out in a beautiful artbook, with extra songs and the documentary. Both of them aren't released on vinyl and this I think is a darn shame. Since Awake is probably my #1, I like the Fourth Wall setlist better. But having that said, I also think Scenes from a Memory simply's being released too much, with New York, Distant Memories and partly on the Fourth Wall...

Agreed. I hope to never hear/see Scenes again on a live release. We have a LOT of it. Specifically, I am maxed out on Spirit Carries On.

[jingle.boy]

I think the L@B setlist *did* protect JLB quite a bit.  The BTL jam, nearly 30 minutes between the two instrumentals, a keyboard solo, extended guitar solo, and quite a few songs that were already pretty lengthy with the instrumental sections (TDS, ES, ToT, ITNoG).  It wasn't a heavy workload for him given the 3+hour show time.

I watched a shit-ton of L@B in '05/'06 as I was exercising 5 days a week on a stationary bike.  Then, I transitioned to watching a shit-ton of Score. 

This is a great DVD.  High production value, great performance, fantastic setlist, legendary venue - what's not to like?

I agree with you ... except PMU is what's not to like on this.  I also love the camera work.

P.S.  OIALT is virtually unlistenable - horrible setlist, and James is awful (understandable, though).

[ReaperKK]

L@B is probably my favorite live album. It's shot beautifully and has some killer playing. The setlist isn't perfect but it's more perfect than a lot of other live releases.

[krands85]

I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.

He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.

When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.

I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad.

Agreed, I've never quite understood the level of criticism of his vocals on that album. There's still a 'fullness' to his voice that he started to lose as time went on. Of course it's not near his best performances, but there many that are a lot worse IMO.

[Trav86]

OIALT was my first DT live album. It's still one of my favorites. Go figure.

[Madman Shepherd]

I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.

He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.

When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.

I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad.

Agreed, I've never quite understood the level of criticism of his vocals on that album. There's still a 'fullness' to his voice that he started to lose as time went on. Of course it's not near his best performances, but there many that are a lot worse IMO.

Yeah. Far from his best performance buy I really don't think it was that bad.

For what it's worth, I think the instruments were recorded nearly perfectly. Great sound! Possibly one of my favorites in that regard but overall not one I listen to much.

[faizoff]

I too love Budokan, I bought the DVD, the CD with the orange printing error, and then the Bluray. I love the sound mix a lot on it. The show isn't as energetic as Score but that's NYC for you. I love the setlist and when I first got the DVD back in 2004, I watched it endlessly. The bluray is a nice upgrade to video and a little chunkier audio stream. I usually listen to the stereo versions of concerts as I find them the best mix.

I remember watching the show and thinking man these guys look so tired. It was one of the evening tours with only them and they'd play like 3 hours of music with a rotating setlist. I saw them in concert in London at the very beginning of the tour (2nd show of the tour) and then comparing that to the Budokan show, was like night and day. The doc from the DVD also showed how tired those guys were at the end plus the jetlag.

I only recently discovered that Jordan's keyboards were off in the beginning and that he mimed playing the parts for the first few songs so they could fix it in post. I'm sure there are a few fixes here and there but my recollection is that it was largely untouched. I need to get MP's commentary for the drumcam version. I'm sure there's a lot of great info on there.

Score had some fixes too with JP's guitar going out during Under A Glass Moon.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Budokan was one of the first things I watched when I was getting into the band. Hearing Hollow Years and Stream of Consciousness live for the first times are two of my all-time favorite musical memories. My mind was just blown.

[Madman Shepherd]

I need to get MP's commentary for the drumcam version. I'm sure there's a lot of great info on there.

There is! Unfortunately he'd not allowed to sell those anymore so you're only hoping to find it on YouTube or ebay, probably for way too much money

[The Letter M]

I think the L@B setlist *did* protect JLB quite a bit.  The BTL jam, nearly 30 minutes between the two instrumentals, a keyboard solo, extended guitar solo, and quite a few songs that were already pretty lengthy with the instrumental sections (TDS, ES, ToT, ITNoG).  It wasn't a heavy workload for him given the 3+hour show time.

I realized this after I got to know the band a bit more in the years after LAB came out. They really spaced out and padded the set with instrumental sections and songs pretty well, giving JLB plenty of time to rest between songs and intense vocal sections. Comparing that to Score, which was 12 or so minutes shorter, it doesn't seem like JLB got as many breaks in that set - SDOIT Overture and the suite's various instrumental sections, the long intro to "Octavarium", and the instrumental breaks in "Sacrificed Sons" and "Raise The Knife". Other than that, I don't think he really left the stage, though it has been a long time since I've watched either Budokan or Score. Granted, at a glance, I'd say the songs on LAB were more intense for James than the ones on Score.

-Marc.

[JeopardousRaven]

I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.

He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.

When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.

I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad. My only complaint of it is that it cuts a ton of songs I love like UAGM and Anna Lee. What are the specific areas that are poor? I can definitely get why LA 1998 is reviled, especially the ending of The Crimson Sunset. To my ears, Labrie on OIALT is leaps and bounds ahead of LA 1998.

I honestly haven’t listened to it since it first came out. So I couldn’t tell you.

I just remember that I was near my peak of DT fanboy fervor. I had already been a fan for 6 years, I was the head of a CD department at a local department store, and I pimped DT at every opportunity. (When FII first came out, I was announcing new releases on the overhead once an hour, and putting WAY too much emphasis on DT and everyone thought I was nuts) And when OIALT came out, I was over the moon that my favorite band in the whole wide world finally had a full length live album.

I played it twice, and I was too embarrassed to ever play it again.  The store demo is still the only copy I own. I would never pay money for it.

But I will say this…there are a precious few saving graces. That version of Peruvian Skies with the Have a Cigar and Enter Sandman nods is brilliant, and one of the few tracks on that release that James sounds great on. I do pull that track out from time to time.

You know what, I can definitely understand how OIALT could sound poor from the perspective of a fan in 1998 when the only live material available to fans so far was Live at the Marquee. He sounds like a completely different singer on those two releases. I've only gotten into DT in the last few years so from the perspective of a fan today, OIALT sounds alright compared to some recent live stuff like Back to Budokan 2017 (which is IMO the worst official live release they've done).

Overall I'd say that the years of 1997-2002 were a bit of a rough period for JLB. I wonder how long he could have maintained his 1992-1994 singing style if it weren't for the shrimp incident.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Are DT live performances typically edited a lot before release?

[Schurftkut]

yes, overdubs etc

[efx]

yeah, overdubs especially if there's major flubbed notes or equipment issues as in some above mentioned examples. Plus post-recording tuning as well.

[hefdaddy42]

Are DT live performances typically edited a lot before release?

I wouldn't say "a lot." But some things, here and there.

[ReaperKK]

And sometimes it's needed.

Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show.

[Wim Kruithof]

Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show...

Since I became Dream Theater-obsessed there is basically nothing else I listen to. Except one album, P.U.L.S.E. It's the very best Pink Floyd ever brought out and each side of all the vinyls from the box is equally brilliant. That High Hopes-solo... it forces even the toughest guys to tears in their eyes. Gilmour is outstanding and the The Bigger Picture solo is the only Petrucci-solo that reminds me of him.

[Jamesman42]

LaB and Score are their best releases for live DVDs. I haven't seen them all, though, but those two are just incredible.

On my DT mix on Spotify, I use the LaB version of Hollow Years since it smokes the album version. It actually becomes a listenable and fun song the way they did it on LaB.

[ReaperKK]

Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show...

Since I became Dream Theater-obsessed there is basically nothing else I listen to. Except one album, P.U.L.S.E. It's the very best Pink Floyd ever brought out and each side of all the vinyls from the box is equally brilliant. That High Hopes-solo... it forces even the toughest guys to tears in their eyes. Gilmour is outstanding and the The Bigger Picture solo is the only Petrucci-solo that reminds me of him.

Don't watch the unedited pulse footage then

[jammindude]

Are DT live performances typically edited a lot before release?

When Mike was in the band, the overdubs and fixes were kept to an absolute bare minimum. But the band has been more relaxed about fixing things more generously since he left.

I seem to recall a few people saying that LALP was (at the time of release) the most “fixed” DT live album they had ever released.

[Cool Chris]

Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show.

What???

[ReaperKK]

Pulse was a recording of a live PPV show Pink Floyd back in the day. After the show was recorded it was cleaned up and released officially. You can still get the full unedited footage on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/i0B3r8NxTq8

The parts where it goes to single can where cut from the official release but we're displayed live.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

My feelings on fixes for live recordings are mixed. Obviously it makes for a cleaner end product but I would prefer to keep the editing to a minimum - maybe only if something was totally botched.

[Cool Chris]

Pulse was a recording of a live PPV show Pink Floyd back in the day. After the show was recorded it was cleaned up and released officially. You can still get the full unedited footage on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/i0B3r8NxTq8

The parts where it goes to single can where cut from the official release but we're displayed live.

Ha! I knew all that, except for the part about any cuts to the recording! I listened to that album a ton back in the day, despite still favorite Delicate Sound of Thunder, which "I knew had some edits. Thanks for the link. 

[ReaperKK]

This is off topic but over the past few months I got into Phish and I've been watching their live streams when they perform. Im always so impressed with how good the live mix is over the live stream.

[PixelDream]

Budokan is one of their best live DVD's for sure! There's supposed to be a blu ray of it, but I can only find one for almost 100 euros used, lol. I'll pass.

I do think JLB isn't having his best day on there, but that is compensated by the intense instrumental workouts and heavy material. I also really love the film-like look it has, less frames per second makes it look really classy.

Metropolis 2000: Scenes From New York, Live at Budokan and Score were all released during the height of my fandom. Dream Theater was the best band in the world for me at that time, hands down. All three of these DVD's I still hold in very high regard and I'll never, ever part with them.

[nobloodyname]

I listened to Budokan the other day. And I still disagree with the majority on Hollow Years. I think most of the extended guitar solo is horribly out of place and takes away from the rest of the song. Which is a shame because it's a lovely performance otherwise. As is the rest of the show, actually. James doesn't sound as good as on Score but he's not bad at all. And the video presentation is also lovely.

Well worth picking up Mike's version of Budokan, incidentally. The isolated audio is fabulous, as is the commentary. What a shame that side of the band died with his departure.

[nikatapi]

The isolated audio is fabulous, as is the commentary. What a shame that side of the band died with his departure.

True, that is something that has been missing a lot from DT after MP left.

[bosk1]

I tried watching it the other night and couldn't finish.    Right where the layer change in the DVD occurs, my BR player kept glitching and wouldn't play anything from that point onward.  Not sure if it's just an issue with the player not knowing how to navigate the layering (not sure whether BRDs actually use layering) or if the disk has degraded over time and is glitchy itself.

[Wim Kruithof]

I tried watching it the other night and couldn't finish.    Right where the layer change in the DVD occurs, my BR player kept glitching and wouldn't play anything from that point onward.  Not sure if it's just an issue with the player not knowing how to navigate the layering (not sure whether BRDs actually use layering) or if the disk has degraded over time and is glitchy itself.

Best advice I can give you is, buy the vinyl. Nothing beats a fine vinyl.

[TAC]

I tried watching it the other night and couldn't finish.    Right where the layer change in the DVD occurs, my BR player kept glitching and wouldn't play anything from that point onward.  Not sure if it's just an issue with the player not knowing how to navigate the layering (not sure whether BRDs actually use layering) or if the disk has degraded over time and is glitchy itself.

Best advice I can give you is, buy the vinyl. Nothing beats a fine vinyl.

That's the worst advice. He was WATCHING it!

[Wim Kruithof]

That's the worst advice. He was WATCHING it!

I know, but I'm watching it too, mostly. Although, in my case, I'm watching the vinyl spinning and dancing under the needle. Nothing beats vinyl.

[The Letter M]

I've been meaning to buy LAB on BD, but I wasn't sure if there were any noticeable improvements on the BD over the DVD set.

-Marc.

[gzarruk]

I own the Blu Ray but never had the DVD, so can't compare. It's been a while since I watched it, so that has to change soon

[faizoff]

I've been meaning to buy LAB on BD, but I wasn't sure if there were any noticeable improvements on the BD over the DVD set.

-Marc.

I have both, the Bluray has an obvious bump in resolution. Whether you care or not is another matter, some don't notice and it doesn't bother them. Like for me personally, Score is only on DVD and it's at times tough to watch that resolution (720 x 480) on a 4k (3840 x 2160) screen.
But a bump from 720 to 1080 is nice and 1080 upscales to 4k a lot easier.

The sound is slightly beefed up as the audio streams are larger and you have two lossless versions (PCM Stereo and DTS-HD Master Audio).

So there is an upgrade but if you don't care about those things then it's no point upgrading.