Re: DT16 Timeline Thread - John finished recording guitar parts

[Stadler]

Black Sabbath's Cross Purposes and a single cover for Scorpions are stunningly similar too.

[Setlist Scotty]

Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.

Funny that you should pick that one out because there is a lot wrong with it, although I tried to fix those issues when I did the Black Clouds and Silver Anniversary artwork.

Could you elaborate? Both the issues and how you remedied them. With pictures, if you can.

Sure.


First and foremost is the majesty symbol, whose perspective seems off compared to the rest of the image and is even slightly cock-eyed. Not only that, but there’s really no reason for it. It just looks like an unexplained stain on the floor.

Second is the mouse, which not only doesn’t show any shading when considering the point of view of the light source (it looks like a light is shining directly on it), there’s also no shadow for it.

The shading issue of the little boy is the same. While he has an appropriate drop shadow, his back should be darker, not brightly lit. The same is true to a lesser degree with the elephant not being shaded enough (never mind how small it is and how large the books are, but I’ll give that the artistic benefit of the doubt in the same way as the giant ants on the SC cover).

Finally, the easel looks a bit odd. It has 3 legs, and there is the mast (used for adjusting the height of a painting/image), which looks like a fourth “leg” dropping down from below the all-seeing eye image; that in itself is no big deal. But if you look at the drop shadow of the mast, it looks like it is an actual fourth leg to the easel. Because the mast is not touching the floor like the 3 legs, there should be a space between it and the shadow.

So how did I resolve these issues?


(FYI, I'm using the Lifting Shadows cover because it's easier to find online and is the same thing, aside from a few of the elements being shifted around and the unicycle clown being added.)

For the majesty symbol, it made sense to make it some sort of marble inlay in the floor, so that’s what I did. And I took care to make sure that the perspective of the whole inlay was more in line with the rest of the image.

For all the elements that were placed within the image, I tried to make sure the lighting and shading was more in line with the light sources (primarily from the doorway, but also the flaming heart. I also tried to make sure the shadows were more realistic in the angle, darkness and amount of blur.

And with regards to the easel, I shortened the mast so that there was no confusion of whether it was an additional leg or not, and redid the shadow.

[Stadler]

Just noticed... nice touch putting the ant where the kid was.  I'm assuming that isn't random.

[Setlist Scotty]

Just noticed... nice touch putting the ant where the kid was.  I'm assuming that isn't random.

No I wouldn't say random. It was just a matter of finding elements from each of their albums (primarily their studio albums, but I took on the challenge of their live albums, too) to place within the scenery of the BCaSL cover so that they fit. Being that BCaSL was already represented by the background, none of the other elements in the foreground were carried over from the original cover.

[Samsara]

I still have your 25th anniversary poster hanging up, Scotty. Loved your work on that.

[jammindude]

I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.

[porcacultor]

I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.

Hear, hear!

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

it's gotta be our boy hugh, wouldn't be a true reunion without his artwork

[The Letter M]

I still have your 25th anniversary poster hanging up, Scotty. Loved your work on that.

Same! I've had it up in a frame for over a decade now, and it's one of the few posters in my house that has actually been framed and stayed in its frame!

-Marc.

[Samsara]

I still have your 25th anniversary poster hanging up, Scotty. Loved your work on that.

Same! I've had it up in a frame for over a decade now, and it's one of the few posters in my house that has actually been framed and stayed in its frame!

-Marc.

Yup. The location of mine is in the garage (don't take offense Scotty!), but it has rotated around from the garage and then into the house. But it's to the right of my car when I drive in each day, so I always see it, which was the point.

It'd be cool if Scott was given an opportunity to throw a few designs into the mix for the new DT album cover.

[Setlist Scotty]

Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! 
 
 

I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.

Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option.   

[TAC]

I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff.

[Stadler]

Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! 
 
 

I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.

Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option.  

But honestly, why the hell not? 

[jammindude]

Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! 
 
 

I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.

Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option.  

But honestly, why the hell not?

Can you imagine telling an artist, “We love this idea! But we’re going to have someone else clean it up a bit because it’s a bit sloppy. THANKS THOUGH!!”

While I think in practice it’s desperately necessary, I can’t imagine any established artist not having an issue with it.

[Setlist Scotty]

Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! 
 
 

I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.

Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option.  

But honestly, why the hell not?

Can you imagine telling an artist, “We love this idea! But we’re going to have someone else clean it up a bit because it’s a bit sloppy. THANKS THOUGH!!”

While I think in practice it’s desperately necessary, I can’t imagine any established artist not having an issue with it.

Well it wouldn't be that. But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.

[jammindude]

And Scotty I don’t want you to sell yourself short on your creativity. No one would be asking you to fly in blind. Obviously, there would be band members who would have some concept of what the album was about. From lyrics or thoughts from the band, I don’t think you’re incapable of coming up with something beautiful.

[Cool Chris]

I had this poster framed in our house until we had kids and my posters were no longer a decorative priority. It's rolled up in my garage with my 4 other posters I refuse to get rid of.

[ReaperKK]

No need to get an AI cover, just hire someone else to do it. Shake things up a little bit.

Whatever opinions people might have about the music on The Astonishing, the art cover was amazing and a nice change of pace.

Same with Six Degrees, I love that cover art.

Great album cover!

Have we done an "album art" ranging, yet? 

1   Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2   Scenes from a Memory
3   Train of Thought
4   Images and Words
5   Octavarium
6   Awake
7   Black Clouds and Silver Linings
8   A Dramatic Turn of Events
9   A View from the Top of the World
10   Distance over Time
11   The Astonishing
12   Systematic Chaos
13   Falling Into Infinity
14   Dream Theater
15   When Dream and Day Unite

I'm bored now without a countdown, you guys wanna do an DT album art countdown ?

A lot of criticism was targeted against the apparent sloppiness of Syme's work. Notable examples include the far right ball not lining up with the rest on Octavarium (the ball is too high, so it wouldn't be on the same level with the other balls if it were released), the black artifacts on DT12 when the artwork was initially released (later fixed), and the ADTOE clown being "nabbed" from a Circus Maximus cover (they used the same stock photo).

Ok, you've surely got a point there. Didn't know about this.

To me, as mentioned, except the Storm Thorgerson-drama (not using the same font is cruel), I like each artwork on the albums. Evenmore I like the photo's of latest albums in the artbooks and boxsets, like The Barstool Warrior or Sleeping Giant. Are these from Syme as well?

Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.

I liked Storm's, but I'm a huge, huge fan of his art in general so my opinion is very biased.

[HOF]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

[Setlist Scotty]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Personally I loved the OiaL artwork, but never really liked the FII artwork. What's interesting is that one of the ideas he submitted to DT was one he later recycled for this Pink Floyd compilation:

[Sycsa]

Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.

Funny that you should pick that one out because there is a lot wrong with it, although I tried to fix those issues when I did the Black Clouds and Silver Anniversary artwork.

Could you elaborate? Both the issues and how you remedied them. With pictures, if you can.

Sure.
*snip*

Thanks, that was a really interesting read. By myself, I would have only noticed the mouse and the broken trophy (?) lacking shadows and that it overall looks "cheap" and "off". Now it's obvious why I had that feeling. I found it particularly insightful that apparently Syme didn't know what an easel precisely looked like and he shadowed it the wrong way. He definitely perceived the mast as a fourth leg in the background rather than it being in the foreground, suspended. Great job with the retouch, the marble inlay is especially majestic, astonishing and other DT-related superlatives.

But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.

Was that about the straight black line on the middle left side? I could only find a low-res version of it. I remember it being pretty noticeable under normal circumstances, but turning up the brightness exposed the editing completely.

[emtee]

Scotty you are definitely talented enough to create a great album cover and your history with the band would be beneficial in that regard. If I were in your shoes, knowing your connection with MP, I would take a risk and submit a couple designs just to see what happens. Obviously we/you won't know any specifics about the theme of DT16 so they would have to be random non-specific designs. After you knew the theme and direction you could create a few options. You have nothing to lose by trying.

[MirrorMask]

Well it wouldn't be that. But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.

Do they even realize the flaws? we all have our areas of expertise, theirs is music and not digital art. Anyone can recognize a blatant mistake, but subtle details like the ones you pointed out? how much do they actually know about photography and digital art? do they even bother to take a lot of pictures while on vacation or they're just not interested in photos? I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts", or what on a guitar constitutes an "arpeggio", how many of the DT guys know what "shading" means in the context of digital art?

The only solution is to have someone doing the artistic equivalent of "proof reading" the artwork, but then again, as someone above me pointed out - you hire a famous pro and then you tell him "hold on while I ask our resident artistic guy if you half-assed some details or not".....? not just belieavable.

[Stadler]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Why?

[Setlist Scotty]

But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.

Was that about the straight black line on the middle left side? I could only find a low-res version of it. I remember it being pretty noticeable under normal circumstances, but turning up the brightness exposed the editing completely.

Correct.
 
 

Scotty you are definitely talented enough to create a great album cover and your history with the band would be beneficial in that regard. If I were in your shoes, knowing your connection with MP, I would take a risk and submit a couple designs just to see what happens. Obviously we/you won't know any specifics about the theme of DT16 so they would have to be random non-specific designs. After you knew the theme and direction you could create a few options. You have nothing to lose by trying.

Once again, thank you for the kind words, but not only would I feel uncomfortable doing that, I honestly don't feel that I would be up to the task. There are so many other, far more creative people out there that could come up with much more amazing ideas than I - believe me!
 
 

Do they even realize the flaws? we all have our areas of expertise, theirs is music and not digital art. Anyone can recognize a blatant mistake, but subtle details like the ones you pointed out? how much do they actually know about photography and digital art? do they even bother to take a lot of pictures while on vacation or they're just not interested in photos? I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts", or what on a guitar constitutes an "arpeggio", how many of the DT guys know what "shading" means in the context of digital art?

The only solution is to have someone doing the artistic equivalent of "proof reading" the artwork, but then again, as someone above me pointed out - you hire a famous pro and then you tell him "hold on while I ask our resident artistic guy if you half-assed some details or not".....? not just belieavable.

That's the whole point - there are details that they may miss, which is understandable because that isn't their area of expertise. And it's not like they would actually have to tell the artist they were gonna have someone look over the artwork for mistakes/flaws. If they wanted to, they could quietly show it to someone else before final approval to look it over, and then ask the artist to address any problems found.
 
 

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Why?

Didn't you know that Storm passed away in 2013?

[Stadler]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Personally I loved the OiaL artwork, but never really liked the FII artwork. What's interesting is that one of the ideas he submitted to DT was one he later recycled for this Pink Floyd compilation:

What about that was submitted?  That's a sort of take off on his previous Umma Gumma cover.

[Stadler]

Once again, thank you for the kind words, but not only would I feel uncomfortable doing that, I honestly don't feel that I would be up to the task. There are so many other, far more creative people out there that could come up with much more amazing ideas than I - believe me!

I totally get not doing that; there are 100 reasons why you might reasonably decide to not and I totally respect that.  "Not up to the task" is not one of them, though.   
 

Why?

Didn't you know that Storm passed away in 2013?

Yeah; that was one of those things that was funnier in my head and would have made a great throwaway comment in a bar, but in hard print lasting forever on the internet, not so much....   

[hefdaddy42]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Why?

Because he's dead.

[Stadler]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Why?

Because he's dead.

See above.  Not my finest hour.

[ReaperKK]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Personally I loved the OiaL artwork, but never really liked the FII artwork. What's interesting is that one of the ideas he submitted to DT was one he later recycled for this Pink Floyd compilation:

What about that was submitted?  That's a sort of take off on his previous Umma Gumma cover.

That was my take on the Echoes cover too, that it was a play on UG

[Setlist Scotty]

What about that was submitted?  That's a sort of take off on his previous Umma Gumma cover.

The general idea was submitted, probably as a sketch just as the final FII cover art was sketched out as can be seen on the YJR version of the FII demos. And good point about Umma Gumma - maybe that's one of the reasons why DT rejected it.

[HOF]

Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.

Why?

Well, he passed in 2013...

Edit: I see know you were joking. Carry on!

[Evermind]

I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts"

It's when you have a blast playing (beating) the drums.

[porcacultor]

Another lil' update from MP from the studio!



"It may be snowing outside ❄️ but its 🔥 inside the studio w DT!"

[Max Kuehnau]

I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts"

It's when you have a blast playing (beating) the drums.

That is not what it means. The name relates to attempting to sound like explosions and or machine guns. (here is a clean and precise example of MM playing one during Nightmare: https://youtu.be/1etSaKbasRo?feature=shared&t=272, we didn't get that on the album version in 2009. Not a slight on anyone (although I much prefer MM playing the section), just for everyone to notice the differences)