DT16 Timeline Thread - MP finished recording drum parts, recording continues

[MirrorMask]

Some possible titles that will throw everybody up in arms for no reason:

- An album title with a reference to the reunion (which doesn't actually mean it)
- A song title about Mike Mangini (it isn't)
- A song title about the end of the band drawing near (it doesn't)
- A song title that is a sequel about a classic song (it isn't)

[BlackInk]

- An album title with a reference to the reunion (which doesn't actually mean it)
- A song title about Mike Mangini (it isn't)

Yeah I remember this happening with ADToE. Nothing had anything to do with Portnoy leaving but many people were sure it had to be.

[Zydar]

A Change Of Drummers
So Glad To See You My Friend (Part 2: It's Been A While)

[Sycsa]

- An album title with a reference to the reunion (which doesn't actually mean it)
- A song title about Mike Mangini (it isn't)

Yeah I remember this happening with ADToE. Nothing had anything to do with Portnoy leaving but many people were sure it had to be.

Yeah, I remember raising my eyebrows some when JP came out with it like "no, the title has nothing to do with MP, it's about all the turmoil that's going on in the world". The wiki even cites the Libyan civil war. Ok, fine, but it's hardly surprising that such a suggestive and ambiguous title fueled speculation. Bridges in the Sky would have been a better choice.

While on the subject of departure feuds, my favorite one is Omega - LGT, two of Hungary's biggest rock bands ever. When the keyboardist / key songwriter along with the drummer and the lyricist decided to leave Omega to form LGT, everybody thought the former band was left for dead. Even their record label abandoned them, they lost all financial support and fell victim to the censorship of socialist Hungary. In the end, Omega managed to release a new album, called Élő Omega (Omega Live) - a double entendre, as it was a live album that conveyed the message that the band was also alive. They were songs on it that threw shade on LGT, such as Unfaithful Friends and After a Difficult Year. LGT, in turn, had songs like I'm Happy, Put a Casket on Your Hands or Never Tell Mom (That She Can't Sing) - the latter two implying that Omega weren't as good on their instruments as the LGT guys. In the end, Omega had the more successful and far longer career.

[Dream Team]

I mean, I guess there's always that age-old argument about the "write and record immediately" process. I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it. Oh, and yes Bridges in the Sky would have been a much better title.

[nikatapi]

Will be very interesting to see the producers on this new album. Is MP going to be back in production co-assignment with JP?
Also curious how the vocal production will be handled, in terms of effects, melody choices and so on. The dynamic between MP - JLB is bound to be different this time around, so i'm really curious how the band will work towards this.

Personally, i hope we get a less "produced" sound with less effects on James' voice.

[Sycsa]

I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it.

Times have changed. In the old days, a band could make a fortune selling albums. Concert tickets were relatively cheap, often surprisingly so in retrospect. Now there's barely any money left in album sales, the lion's share of the revenue comes from ticket sales. So it makes sense that they'll take as little time as possible with recording, mixing and mastering.

In the 70s and 80s, up to Metallica's black album in '91, rock albums could potentially have million dollar budgets. Regardless of technological advancements, the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us as no one will ever throw that much money towards making a rock album ever again.

[HOF]

I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it.

Times have changed. In the old days, a band could make a fortune selling albums. Concert tickets were relatively cheap, often surprisingly so in retrospect. Now there's barely any money left in album sales, the lion's share of the revenue comes from ticket sales. So it makes sense that they'll take as little time as possible with recording, mixing and mastering.

In the 70s and 80s, up to Metallica's black album in '91, rock albums could potentially have million dollar budgets. Regardless of technological advancements, the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us as no one will ever throw that much money towards making a rock album ever again.

But then also back in the 70s you had a lot of albums that were made in a matter of weeks as well. Sometimes you had bands like Rush or Genesis or Journey producing multiple studio albums within a year basically cutting albums while on a short break from touring.

[hefdaddy42]

I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch.

A lot of people probably need to shove it, because there really isn't any correlation between how long it takes and how good it is. 

It takes as  long as it takes.  Sometimes it happens quickly, and sometimes it doesn't, but spending "extra time" on it just to spend extra time on it won't necessarily make it better.  When they have what they want, they are done.

[Stadler]

I mean, I guess there's always that age-old argument about the "write and record immediately" process. I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it. Oh, and yes Bridges in the Sky would have been a much better title.

The problem is for every proclamation about arbitrary things like 'songs percolating' and 'song lengths' and what not, there are just as many arguments for as against.  Hysteria vs. Chinese Democracy.   "Yesterday" (2:07) vs. "Revolution No. 9" (8: something).     

This is ART.  There are no rules, and even if there were, these are CREATIVES and don't we expect them to break the rules?  Or make their own new rules?   

This is why FOR ME, if I want to hear music that's percolated, I can write and record those songs I wrote back in college.  If I want an album that is banged out in a week, I can write and record those songs I wrote in the car last Tuesday.   If I want a DREAM THEATER record, I can buy what they ultimately put out.

THEY are the artists.  THEY have to do what THEY think is best for them in that moment, and while they might later think something was a mistake (I'm thinking of the discussions around FII) that's THEIR call, not mine.  They seem happy now, and they seem engaged in the music they are writing/recording.  That's all that matters to me. 

[gborland]

the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us

I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. 

[Indiscipline]

I get that we are progressively being transformed into digital creatures executing protocols rather than analogic and thinking ones, but only inside a videogame it is possible to think songwriting rigorously starts only as soon as the songwriters enter the studio. Ideas are fluid and tend to float around in infinite shapes and times.

Regardless of opinions about the ideal (ridicolous concept) working time for an album, trying to measure it is akin to thinking our butcher is an inert NPC until the moment he/she springs to life as soon as we enter the shop.

[Stadler]

I get that we are progressively being transformed into digital creatures executing protocols rather than analogic and thinking ones, but only inside a videogame it is possible to think songwriting rigorously starts only as soon as the songwriters enter the studio. Ideas are fluid and tend to float around in infinite shapes and times.

Regardless of opinions about the ideal (ridicolous concept) working time for an album, trying to measure it is akin to thinking our butcher is an inert NPC until the moment he/she springs to life as soon as we enter the shop.

LOVE THIS.   Always sort of shook my head when artists said "we went into the studio with nothing".  Really?  NOTHING?  Not one snippet or scrap or riff on your iPhone?

[Sycsa]

I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch.

A lot of people probably need to shove it, because there really isn't any correlation between how long it takes and how good it is. 

It takes as  long as it takes.  Sometimes it happens quickly, and sometimes it doesn't, but spending "extra time" on it just to spend extra time on it won't necessarily make it better.  When they have what they want, they are done.

Well, in principle, of course. But given the context of how rough the production is on a few DT albums (most notably ADTOE), it's hard to imagine they wouldn't have benefitted from some extra TLC. As for the songwriting part, they often say that deadline is the greatest muse. I only wish that MP craft his drum parts a bit more instead of just drawing from the bag o' tricks well.

the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us

I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. 

Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.

[gborland]

I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. 

Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.

SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.

[Nekov]

It takes as  long as it takes.  Sometimes it happens quickly, and sometimes it doesn't, but spending "extra time" on it just to spend extra time on it won't necessarily make it better. 

[gzarruk]

 

[Stadler]

I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. 

Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.

SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.

Honestly, though, the Dave Meegan version is no slouch.  I was very fine with the original version.  That's more Marillion than SW, IMO. 

[HOF]

I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. 

Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.

SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.

But then Marillion followed it up with an album that was (by their own words) "banged out" in a relatively short time that is every bit a masterpiece in my (and many others, including the band's) view. Some things take more work and time than others.

I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. 

Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.

SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.

Honestly, though, the Dave Meegan version is no slouch.  I was very fine with the original version.  That's more Marillion than SW, IMO. 

I also prefer Meegan's original mix of Brave. Don't think there was much Wilson could do to improve it.

[emtee]

I've always been curious about mindset and goals for musicians getting ready to record an album. And overlay contractual obligations over the top of everything.

Does a band ever have a mindset, "we're going to create our best ever...shooting for a masterpiece" vs "we just want to write the best songs we can."  And is there really a big difference between the two?

Additionally, I wonder if certain bands knew in real time if what they just wrote was something very special. Take Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon for instance. When they were done did they smoke a few joints and think, "we're finally done!" Or did they realize that they had created something significant. There was a video of JP, JR and MP recently talking about some of their favorite parts and JP said he knew when he created the riff for At Wits End it was going to resonate.

[Rho d Berth]

Some possible titles that will throw everybody up in arms for no reason:

- A song title that is a sequel about a classic song (it isn't)

Like 'Push me up'?

[Sycsa]

Push You Above

[HOF]

They should call the album Asleep.

[BlackInk]

SFaM is probably DT's best sounding album in my opinion. It's not my favorite DT album, but the one that sounds the best to me. Everything is so clear and comfortable and natural, it all fits together so well in the mix. I would like for the band, especially JP, to go more in that direction going forward, even though I know it's unlikely. I'm probably going to have to settle for improved drum production this time. Hopefully.

[Setlist Scotty]

I mean, I guess there's always that age-old argument about the "write and record immediately" process. I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it. Oh, and yes Bridges in the Sky would have been a much better title.

I'm kinda of the same mindset as you, but when I mentioned this to MP many moons ago, he said that the songs do continue to develop still. I'm not sure if at a certain point they would ever insert something new or change something drastically - probably not - but I'm sure there are certain refinements that happen. I do know for a fact that in one part of TDS, they repeated a part one or two measures because they realized that they needed a bit more space for the vocals (IIRC). And I know that initially there was a 20 second drum solo at the end of TGP before the final downbeat, but when they applied the lyrics, MP said the drum solo felt arbitrary and so edited it out.

[Lonk]

I get that we are progressively being transformed into digital creatures executing protocols rather than analogic and thinking ones, but only inside a videogame it is possible to think songwriting rigorously starts only as soon as the songwriters enter the studio. Ideas are fluid and tend to float around in infinite shapes and times.

Regardless of opinions about the ideal (ridicolous concept) working time for an album, trying to measure it is akin to thinking our butcher is an inert NPC until the moment he/she springs to life as soon as we enter the shop.

LOVE THIS.   Always sort of shook my head when artists said "we went into the studio with nothing".  Really?  NOTHING?  Not one snippet or scrap or riff on your iPhone?

Love this as well.

However, I do believe artists when they say they went into the studio with nothing. While yes, ideas are always flowing and you might randomly think of something that sounds cool, that doesn't equate to "album material". Also, I would guess that artists are sometimes pressure to put out an album (whatever their contract might be) and they might be forced into the studio before having any ideas.

Apple to oranges, but I remember when I was in college and I had an assignment to write a piece of music, more often than not, I would get to it with a blank sheet and no idea what would come out. Heck, a few times I had an assignment due at 8am, and it was 2am and I had nothing written yet. All that to say that maybe not always, but I'm sure at times artists do go into the studio with nothing.

[Sycsa]

SFaM is probably DT's best sounding album in my opinion. It's not my favorite DT album, but the one that sounds the best to me. Everything is so clear and comfortable and natural, it all fits together so well in the mix. I would like for the band, especially JP, to go more in that direction going forward, even though I know it's unlikely. I'm probably going to have to settle for improved drum production this time. Hopefully.

I was of the same opinion for a while, but got more and more disgruntled with the kick drum sound as the years went on. Realizing that it's a sample that Kevin Shirley used far two often on albums he produced (it sounds the worst with Iron Maiden:https://youtu.be/TMRYS9vxuR0?si=EwyUS0dHXqftbxV3&t=89), I just couldn't unhear it and started bothering me how it doesn't quite blend with the mix. For this reason and the more prominent keyboards, I prefer the alternate mix these days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxXyjcBqLF4. It's no biggie at the end of the day, Scenes is still one of the best sounding DT albums.

[Stadler]

I've always been curious about mindset and goals for musicians getting ready to record an album. And overlay contractual obligations over the top of everything.

Does a band ever have a mindset, "we're going to create our best ever...shooting for a masterpiece" vs "we just want to write the best songs we can."  And is there really a big difference between the two?

Additionally, I wonder if certain bands knew in real time if what they just wrote was something very special. Take Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon for instance. When they were done did they smoke a few joints and think, "we're finally done!" Or did they realize that they had created something significant. There was a video of JP, JR and MP recently talking about some of their favorite parts and JP said he knew when he created the riff for At Wits End it was going to resonate.

I love these questions.  A corollary is, given that you DID go in and attempt to create a masterpiece, did you ever listen back and think "wow, this isn't at the level of, say, Stairway To Heaven, or Yesterday... what do I do now?"   I've actually asked that of Fish, Michael Moorcock, and...one or two others that I've had the opportunity to ask questions of.  Moorcock had the best answer.  These are my words, but it was something along the lines of "Stairway (or whatever) isn't my standard.  My standard is "is that the truest, best representation of the thoughts, feelings, ideas, emotions, concepts that I was trying to get across?" 

[Progmaniac1988]

New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==

wow, cool! kinda looks like Winamp is on the screen to his right in the picture. I can kinda see the album cover for Metallica's black album too, maybe they're spinning that for inspiration in the studio

[Adami]

There’s no Black Album cover on the computer. It’s just various music software.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

There’s no Black Album cover on the computer. It’s just various music software.

gotcha. i kinda thought i could see the "Metallica" and the snake inlay thing but I guess it was the computer glare

[gzarruk]

New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==

I find it funny that almost all pics from the studio have been MP shots by Jordan or Jordan shots my MP. Are the other guys isolated or something?

[TheCountOfNYC]

New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==

I find it funny that almost all pics from the studio have been MP shots by Jordan or Jordan shots my MP. Are the other guys isolated or something?

Mike and Jordan are just the two most active on social media. James gives updates here and there, JP really only posts his guitars, and JM isn’t even on social media.

[crystalstars17]

and JM isn’t even on social media.

 

What a surprise!