Re: DT16 Timeline Thread - John finished recording guitar parts

[TAC]

Knowing the setlist vs not knowing the setlist is an easy choice. I'd rather not know. It's virtually impossible to avoid it these days so I know ahead of time. Rationalizing it, it helps with planned piss/beer breaks, if/when to leave to avoid traffic..that kind of thing.

But back in my day lol  we never knew the setlist, and there's nothing that can replace the opening notes of a song that you didn't know was coming or expected.

Yeah, maybe it was the times we grew up in, but for me, the thrill was just BEING THERE.  I was in a room with a bunch of fans as rabid as me, seeing my heroes.   Looking back now, seeing the setlist for the first Kiss show I saw, I'm like "pfft, that sucked", but I was THERE and I KNOW it didn't.

My first Kiss show, the Asylum tour...yeah, the setlist sucked and I knew it. Still, it was awesome to finally see them.

But yes, seeing "my heroes" as you put it...yes, having the actual guys from Iron Maiden in front of me in the same time and space...it's amazing no matter what they play. But I was really commenting on the knowing/not knowing debate, not the being there/not being there one.

[Wim Kruithof]

lot of pages involves setlists... Last show I saw twice and next tour I'll buy two tickets as well, one in my own country and one in a foreign country like Germany. But as much as I would like a rotating setlist, I'll enjoy any song they'll ever play live. Never will complain about that and am willing to absorb any Dream Theater-moment, while they're still alive.

[cramx3]

Well to continue with setlists since MP brought it up

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-says-it-would-be-nice-if-dream-theater-could-bring-back-crazy-setlist-ideas-for-upcoming-shows

I totally get and like what he says here, but I can't help but notice a slight contradiction in a way.  I totally get that he kept some distance since he left DT (a believe he did), but he can't know one thing without knowing the other.... two quotes from MP from that article:

After I left DREAM THEATER, for the last 13 years or so, from my understanding — I haven't followed it too closely — but from my understanding, they've been more doing static setlists and things like that.

I know a lot of the DREAM THEATER fans have missed it in the last decade or so, so it would be nice to interject it back in.

He knows what the DT fans want but doesn't follow what DT was currently doing? My point, I think he knows damn well what DT concerts have become since he left and he knows a lot of us are happy to have him back for this very reason 

[Lonk]

I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).

[bosk1]

I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).

Yeah, this.  I'm not seeing a contradiction either.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Sounds like the static setlists could even remain for the next tour and then slowly change over time, based on that interview. I am not sure what was meant by 'crazy setlists' but I would imagine anything that involves a lot of extra work for the band - now in their 50s and 60s - will be thought of differently than it may have been 20 or 15 years ago.

[The Letter M]

I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).

Yeah, this.  I'm not seeing a contradiction either.

Right, doesn't take an ace attorney to see there aren't any contradictions here. He's also been spotted seeing DT a couple of times in recent years, so I'm sure hels somewhat familiar with their live shows, and still being close friends with JP, the band might have come up in conversation at some point.

-Marc.

[gzarruk]

I honestly wouldn't pay too much attention to some things he says as he isn't too accurate with certain details anymore nowadays. In his Drumeo video, he made it seem (I'm not saying this was intentional, maybe he just forgot) like he hadn't played/practiced UAGM at all since he left DT 13 years ago ("it's like riding a bike!"), but he had played it live a bunch of times with Noturnall not that long ago in Brazil in 2019.

[cramx3]

I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).

Yeah, this.  I'm not seeing a contradiction either.

Its not, but it feels like he's holding back on what he knows.  He literally went to DT concerts. I believe him that he might not be following closely, but he follows enough to not play dumb. "my understanding" seems like a weird phrase, when like I said, he actually watched DT concerts.

[gborland]

Its not, but it feels like he's holding back on what he knows.  He literally went to DT concerts. I believe him that he might not be following closely, but he follows enough to not play dumb. "my understanding" seems like a weird phrase, when like I said, he actually watched DT concerts.

He was at maybe one or two shows on the last tour? And none at all in the preceding 12 years. And all the while, fans have been bugging him at his own gigs and all over social media, saying "Hey, please rejoin DT, we miss the rotating setlists!"

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Probably just trying to sound as diplomatic as possible is my guess.

[cramx3]

Probably just trying to sound as diplomatic as possible is my guess.

This 100%

Its not, but it feels like he's holding back on what he knows.  He literally went to DT concerts. I believe him that he might not be following closely, but he follows enough to not play dumb. "my understanding" seems like a weird phrase, when like I said, he actually watched DT concerts.

He was at maybe one or two shows on the last tour? And none at all in the preceding 12 years. And all the while, fans have been bugging him at his own gigs and all over social media, saying "Hey, please rejoin DT, we miss the rotating setlists!"

His family was even at the DOT gig I was at in NYC.  I think MP was on tour at the time and not in the building.  You think he didn't know what his family saw?

[gborland]

OK, so he had first-hand knowledge of let's say three setlists out of the hundreds of shows they played in the last 13 years.

[Madman Shepherd]

Oh come on. Do you guys really think he didn't follow DT pretty darn closely over the last 13 year? That ain't how MP rolls. 

[Mosh]

I am sure he knew what DT was up to the entire time. He knew enough to voice opinions on what they were playing or the types of albums they were making at the time. He commented on them playing ACOS, The Shattered Fortress, probably others. DT making The Astonishing influenced how he felt about doing a double concept album with Neal Morse at the time and he's commented on ADTOE criticisms. He was clearly paying attention.

And even if he didn't know then, there's no way he's going to start building setlists again without having any idea what they played while he was out of the band. This is the same guy who had extensive notes on every single show DT ever played. I doubt the "OCD" guy is going to rejoin that band and have a 13 year gap in knowledge on what they've been up to.

[gzarruk]

Even though he seems to have mellowed a good amount the last couple years, I agree, there's no way he isn't up to date on some of these things by now.

[bosk1]

I think it's presumptuous to insist on what somebody knew or didn't know at a given time unless you have all the facts, which we do not.

[Schurftkut]

it might actually be a good thing if he's so completionist, because then s2n gets to be played live 

[bosk1]

Well, yeah, I would expect that at some point, he'll ask for a list of what has and has not been played or will compile that himself and then work in some of those unplayed songs at some point. 

[Setlist Scotty]

After I left DREAM THEATER, for the last 13 years or so, from my understanding — I haven't followed it too closely — but from my understanding, they've been more doing static setlists and things like that.

I know a lot of the DREAM THEATER fans have missed it in the last decade or so, so it would be nice to interject it back in.

He knows what the DT fans want but doesn't follow what DT was currently doing? My point, I think he knows damn well what DT concerts have become since he left and he knows a lot of us are happy to have him back for this very reason 

Like others have said, this isn't a contradiction. After all, plenty of others *have* been following things closely. I don't recall any specific e-mails or messages, but I'm sure the topic came up more than once between me and him, besides family and others close to him. So there's no need for him to follow it closely. Him saying "from my understanding" could simply be referring to what he's heard from others.

[Samsara]

I know this is DTF, and the whole nitpicking and granular thing is what we do here. 

But for the love of God, let's just celebrate the classic lineup of Dream Theater being together again and making new music.

[nobloodyname]

Oh come on. Do you guys really think he didn't follow DT pretty darn closely over the last 13 year? That ain't how MP rolls. 

I think this might be a first for me, agreeing with you But I think you're right. I imagine he knows exactly what was played on each tour. In fact, I'd venture to suggest there is absolutely no way he doesn't. And, actually, I'll go a step further. I bet he could recite the setlists better than JP

[bosk1]

Again, not sure where you guys are getting any of that from other than your own presumption.  I highly doubt MP could tell much about the set lists for any shows he did not attend, other that probably the TA tour and half the set for the I&WAB tour.  Yeah, he followed that kind of thing closely while he was in DT.  But he hasn't been in the band for 13 years and hasn't had any involvement in set lists for them.  Silly to think he would have done the same thing for a band he was not involved with. 

Purely a guess on my part, but if I had to guess:  I think it's entirely possible that he may have peeked at and somewhat followed the set lists for the first tour for ADTOE because he was in the habit of keeping tabs on DT and with his departure still being relatively fresh, he may have wanted to know what they were playing.  For DT12, I doubt he would have followed closely, but may have looked at or heard about some sets either for local shows or festivals, but didn't really know whether or not they were rotating.  For TA, with or without looking, I'm sure he knew they were playing the entire album.  For I&WAB, hard to say whether he knew the entire set or just the I&W and ACOS parts.  Beyond that tour, I doubt he knew anything about sets and any set rotation beyond shows he may have gone to and anything JP may have said to him. 

[MirrorMask]

Hey, setlist.fm is a thing. All it takes is curiosity and five minutes of spare time.

[cramx3]

But for the love of God, let's just celebrate the classic lineup of Dream Theater being together again and making new music.

There's only so many times we can say how much we are excited.  But the only thing we can actually talk about is the news coming out from this, which happened to be exactly what was being talked about here, in a way. 

After I left DREAM THEATER, for the last 13 years or so, from my understanding — I haven't followed it too closely — but from my understanding, they've been more doing static setlists and things like that.

I know a lot of the DREAM THEATER fans have missed it in the last decade or so, so it would be nice to interject it back in.

He knows what the DT fans want but doesn't follow what DT was currently doing? My point, I think he knows damn well what DT concerts have become since he left and he knows a lot of us are happy to have him back for this very reason 

Like others have said, this isn't a contradiction. After all, plenty of others *have* been following things closely. I don't recall any specific e-mails or messages, but I'm sure the topic came up more than once between me and him, besides family and others close to him. So there's no need for him to follow it closely. Him saying "from my understanding" could simply be referring to what he's heard from others.

I think everyone is hung up on the word contradiction that I used and already said it's not a contradiction in my follow up response.

And I think he certainly knows a lot from second hand, the guy is VERY active on social media and clearly reads some comments (since he responds to them). But you can't just ignore things like:

He knew enough to voice opinions on what they were playing or the types of albums they were making at the time. He commented on them playing ACOS, The Shattered Fortress, probably others. DT making The Astonishing influenced how he felt about doing a double concept album with Neal Morse at the time and he's commented on ADTOE criticisms.

PLus going to shows himself.  There's evidence he knew a lot about what was going on with DT based on his own comments and experiences he has shared.  Maybe he didn't know the extent of it all like some of us hardcore fans do, but to make such comments about what the fans want, it's not just his understanding, it's his experience like every one of us.  And as I also already stated, it's an opinion that I completely share so that interview really hit the spot for me in things I wanted to hear from MP.  (other than hinting at a setlist of classics, I personally don't want it to be too classic heavy although it is expected)

Also, since I got sniped by bosk. 

Again, not sure where you guys are getting any of that from other than your own presumption.

These aren't my own presumptions.  These are things he has publicly shared that are forming my opinion. I also do agree that he legit did step back from following them actively though for awhile.

[Setlist Scotty]

And I think he certainly knows a lot from second hand, the guy is VERY active on social media and clearly reads some comments (since he responds to them). But you can't just ignore things like:

He knew enough to voice opinions on what they were playing or the types of albums they were making at the time. He commented on them playing ACOS, The Shattered Fortress, probably others. DT making The Astonishing influenced how he felt about doing a double concept album with Neal Morse at the time and he's commented on ADTOE criticisms.

PLus going to shows himself.  There's evidence he knew a lot about what was going on with DT based on his own comments and experiences he has shared.  Maybe he didn't know the extent of it all like some of us hardcore fans do, but to make such comments about what the fans want, it's not just his understanding, it's his experience like every one of us.  And as I also already stated, it's an opinion that I completely share so that interview really hit the spot for me in things I wanted to hear from MP.  (other than hinting at a setlist of classics, I personally don't want it to be too classic heavy although it is expected)

Right, but him saying "from my understanding" is not false; I wouldn't even say it was misleading. I get the impression that you are arguing otherwise - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

All I'm saying is that a lot of the info that he did know he probably received second hand. In other words, it wasn't as if he was actively seeking out the information, and even when he was told this info from others or saw it posted somewhere on social media, he didn't feel the need to confirm it for himself by visting setlist.fm or some other way. For example, I'd have to double check my e-mails, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was the one who initially informed him that DT was doing ACoS on the IWaB tour because I know he had in mind playing it for TSF shows; if not me, then Weymolith or someone else close to him that keeps tabs on such things no doubt told him ahead of time since the IWaB tour began before the first TSF show happened.

[Mosh]

I can definitely believe that he got the information second hand. No problem with the suggestion that he wasn't actively keeping tabs but that people close to him were informing him of what DT was up to. No presumptions here though, just going off of what he has publicly commented on.

[porcacultor]

What about the whole thing being a sore subject for him? It'd be one thing to see one or two shows by a band you have little emotional attachment to (or that you enjoy as a fan), but it's not like the subject of Dream Theater has been a walk in the park for MP all these years. Whatever the level of detail he's internalized about the band's setlists, releases and movements, I don't think it's fair to expect him to have the clearest of pictures of what went down in what was not "his camp" anymore. At least not in a distanced "fan" level.

Knowing that they chose to play static setlists (or slightly rotating ones depending on the case) is as much detail as I'd expect him to work with at this point. Of course, being back in the band, it'll be less traumatic and more fun for him to look into what has and hasn't been played (like Bosk mentioned), but at this point, where any interviews were made before recording the new album and where he's currently working on DT16? I don't expect him to tell soot from Surrender to Reason, ash from Astonishing, rum from Room 13- you get the picture.

[Mosh]

It's a good point - watching DT make albums and tour without him was probably a sore point. But maybe he's going to look at those albums differently now that it's his band again. Still very much an open question how he handles that. I feel like knowing Portnoy's approach in the past and his completist attitude as a rock and roll fan as well as a member of the band, he'd jump at the opportunity to play some DT songs that have never been played live - especially considering their track record by the time he left. But yea, unless he updates his own documents to include setlists that DT performed without him in the band, he's going to need someone else to tell him what was or wasn't played from the Mangini era because he probably has no real idea. He also may not have a grip on which songs from those albums the fanbase loves.

[EPIC Outro]

Maybe he won't focus too much on what was and wasn't played in the last 13 years, and this new era can be a fresh start where anything is possible, even if it was played recently.

[DTA]

I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.

[The Letter M]

I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.

Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!

Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!

-Marc.

[Chino]

I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.

Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!

Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!

-Marc.

I don't know how contracts and ownership works all that much when it comes to the music industry, but would DT be able to play that? Or does the gaming studio have the rights to it?

[Lonk]

I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.

Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!

Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!

-Marc.

I don't know how contracts and ownership works all that much when it comes to the music industry, but would DT be able to play that? Or does the gaming studio have the rights to it?

I would assume they can play it live, just not release it in an album. But I also don't know how it works

[hefdaddy42]

I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.

Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!

Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!

-Marc.

I don't know how contracts and ownership works all that much when it comes to the music industry, but would DT be able to play that? Or does the gaming studio have the rights to it?

They could play it live if they wanted to (although I have no idea why they would do so).  They would probably need to get permission to include it on a DT album, but that would probably be a formality.