Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)

[Phoenix87x]

So I started reading the Bible, Qua-ran, Lotus sutra and Bhagavad Gita in an interest to better relate to and understand the people of the world.





It's all very interesting, but I need guidance. This stuff is not that easy to interpret.

I know there's religious discussion in the religion section, but that's kind of locked away and reserved for fierce debate. This I wanted to be a thread just to learn and understand better, not to fight.

Mods, let me know if this accommodation is too much, but could we have a thread we just learn about stuff from scripture? And not argue?


If not that's find too. But if this thread does get locked or moved, anyone feel free to DM me who would like to continue the discussion privately.

Thanks

[jammindude]

This should really be in P/R.

[WilliamMunny]

So I started reading the Bible, Qua-ran, Lotus sutra and Bhagavad Gita in an interest to better relate to and understand the people of the world.





It's all very interesting, but I need guidance. This stuff is not that easy to interpret.

I know there's religious discussion in the religion section, but that's kind of locked away and reserved for fierce debate. This I wanted to be a thread just to learn and understand better, not to fight.

Mods, let me know if this accommodation is too much, but could we have a thread we just learn about stuff from scripture? And not argue?


If not that's find too. But if this thread does get locked or moved, anyone feel free to DM me who would like to continue the discussion privately.

Thanks

First and foremost, kudos for taking on such a massive goal with a somewhat altruistic motivation as your guide.

That said, I find it super interesting that you are going to read these concurrently (at least according to the picture?)

Finally, I wonder if a series of prompts might be a better way to proceed, especially if you are looking for some focused guidance.

As for me, former alter-boy, lifelong catholic here, so while I've dabbled in the other texts you've outlined, the bible is the only thing I have any working familiarity with.

[hefdaddy42]

The only way that I can see something like this working NOT in P/R is by examining these works only as literary works, like in a comparative religions course at a university.

But I am afraid the chances of something like that staying within those parameters and succeeding are close to nil.

Just my two cents.  What does everyone else think?

But either way, kudos to you for undertaking this study.

[Stadler]

For what it's worth, I'm good with a literary debate about these works. I know I'm going to be reading, with some curiosity.  I think we're fine as long as it doesn't devolve into what religious conversations often do, and that is debates on faith and the differences/misundertandings between narrative and allegory.

[Skeever]

Lots to take in at once, especially with a sandwich to eat concurrently.
I'm interested and will follow, though.

There are "quite a few" Bible in a Year podcasts. I'd recommend one from Fr Mike Schmitz personally.

[Adami]

No Dianetics? Tsk tsk tsk.


But as others have alluded to, maybe start with one. I'd imagine one would take considerable time to properly look into, doing multiple at once just feels like it'll drive you crazy.

[Jamesman42]

But I am afraid the chances of something like that staying within those parameters and succeeding are close to nil.

Just my two cents.  What does everyone else think?

Agreed, I'd let the conversation flow naturally, and if it dips into P/R territory, just move it there.

[hunnus2000]

You should follow a couple of people:

Aron Ra
Seth Andrews

They are Atheists but I guarantee you they know these books better than anyone.

[MirrorMask]

About that and actually "knowing" the books... I wonder how many people actually have done with these religious texts what you would do with any other book, i.e. reading them properly, from the first page to the last. I know I haven't, we all know more or less a lot of stuff that is in the book of the religion we were raised into (and suprisingly, a lot of stuff that isn't even there), and we all must have had as children some "easy" and condensed version to read, but I wonder how many people actually ever read those books from the first page to the last. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers would be very small.

[Skeever]

About that and actually "knowing" the books... I wonder how many people actually have done with these religious texts what you would do with any other book, i.e. reading them properly, from the first page to the last. I know I haven't, we all know more or less a lot of stuff that is in the book of the religion we were raised into (and suprisingly, a lot of stuff that isn't even there), and we all must have had as children some "easy" and condensed version to read, but I wonder how many people actually ever read those books from the first page to the last. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers would be very small.

Why would this be "reading them properly", though? The Bible, for example, is a compilation of many previous books, writings, histories, letters, etc., which was compiled by the Church some 300+ years into Christianity. Sure, there is some chronology to it, and a logic to how it's been ordered, but I don't think anyone ever intended for it to be read the same way that you'd read a Stephen King novel.

[Stadler]

I have read it that way, and it's NOT easy.  You pointed out the main point: it's not really a narrative, more like a book of essays or short stories, but even then, it's - or can be - wildly disjointed and requires a level of attentiveness to pick up on the subtle and not-so-subtle shifts in tone, intent and style. 

[Lonk]

About that and actually "knowing" the books... I wonder how many people actually have done with these religious texts what you would do with any other book, i.e. reading them properly, from the first page to the last. I know I haven't, we all know more or less a lot of stuff that is in the book of the religion we were raised into (and suprisingly, a lot of stuff that isn't even there), and we all must have had as children some "easy" and condensed version to read, but I wonder how many people actually ever read those books from the first page to the last. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers would be very small.

Why would this be "reading them properly", though? The Bible, for example, is a compilation of many previous books, writings, histories, letters, etc., which was compiled by the Church some 300+ years into Christianity. Sure, there is some chronology to it, and a logic to how it's been ordered, but I don't think anyone ever intended for it to be read the same way that you'd read a Stephen King novel.

While I agree that it's not intended to be read as a novel (The Bible as least), I think Mirrormask point still stand. The number of people who have read even one book within the Bible from beginning to end is probably a lot lower than one might think. Maybe "reading them properly" is not the correct term, but we know selective reading is a thing when it comes to the Bible.

[XJDenton]

The only way that I can see something like this working NOT in P/R is by examining these works only as literary works, like in a comparative religions course at a university.

But I am afraid the chances of something like that staying within those parameters and succeeding are close to nil.

This. Happy to let this go on for the moment, but if it veers off into P/R territory it will move there.

[Stadler]

About that and actually "knowing" the books... I wonder how many people actually have done with these religious texts what you would do with any other book, i.e. reading them properly, from the first page to the last. I know I haven't, we all know more or less a lot of stuff that is in the book of the religion we were raised into (and suprisingly, a lot of stuff that isn't even there), and we all must have had as children some "easy" and condensed version to read, but I wonder how many people actually ever read those books from the first page to the last. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers would be very small.

Why would this be "reading them properly", though? The Bible, for example, is a compilation of many previous books, writings, histories, letters, etc., which was compiled by the Church some 300+ years into Christianity. Sure, there is some chronology to it, and a logic to how it's been ordered, but I don't think anyone ever intended for it to be read the same way that you'd read a Stephen King novel.

While I agree that it's not intended to be read as a novel (The Bible as least), I think Mirrormask point still stand. The number of people who have read even one book within the Bible from beginning to end is probably a lot lower than one might think. Maybe "reading them properly" is not the correct term, but we know selective reading is a thing when it comes to the Bible.

Just the very nature of biblical references - "John 3:16!" - lends itself and promotes a selective reading of relevant clauses.   Not arguing anything here, just making an observation.

[Phoenix87x]

Oh wow.

I got a little busy and wasn't able to log back in for a while.

Glad to see this thread is still up and going.

I've really enjoyed the reading so far and look forward to chatting with everyone.

Thank you so much everybody 

[Harmony]

I can't speak to any of the religious texts except the bible but doesn't it matter which version you are using.

I seem to recall some pretty heated debates between some of my Christian friends about different verses meaning different things depending upon which translation you were using.

[Phoenix87x]

Ok so first question,

for your scripture of choice, how do you read it?

do you start at the beginning or jump around?

[hefdaddy42]

About that and actually "knowing" the books... I wonder how many people actually have done with these religious texts what you would do with any other book, i.e. reading them properly, from the first page to the last. I know I haven't, we all know more or less a lot of stuff that is in the book of the religion we were raised into (and suprisingly, a lot of stuff that isn't even there), and we all must have had as children some "easy" and condensed version to read, but I wonder how many people actually ever read those books from the first page to the last. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers would be very small.

Why would this be "reading them properly", though? The Bible, for example, is a compilation of many previous books, writings, histories, letters, etc., which was compiled by the Church some 300+ years into Christianity. Sure, there is some chronology to it, and a logic to how it's been ordered, but I don't think anyone ever intended for it to be read the same way that you'd read a Stephen King novel.

Skeever is right.  Reading the Bible front to back like any other book is probably not the best way, in and of itself.

Ok so first question,

for your scripture of choice, how do you read it?

do you start at the beginning or jump around?

I do it book by book, if I'm interested in a particular book, or theme by theme, i.e. seeing how a particular theme is examined by the various authors.

It sounds like a simple question, but it isn't really a simple answer unfortunately lol

[Phoenix87x]

Sounds good

probably 3 separate times I tried to do it front to back and failed. Thanks, I will try and approach it different this time.

Stumbled accross a long, but very good docu-drama of Jesus's life starting right at John the Baptist. Very informative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mgUPt2KI08&ab_channel=Jesus.net

[reneranucci]

About that and actually "knowing" the books... I wonder how many people actually have done with these religious texts what you would do with any other book, i.e. reading them properly, from the first page to the last. I know I haven't, we all know more or less a lot of stuff that is in the book of the religion we were raised into (and suprisingly, a lot of stuff that isn't even there), and we all must have had as children some "easy" and condensed version to read, but I wonder how many people actually ever read those books from the first page to the last. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers would be very small.

I know that by "from the first to the last page" you mean "read the whole text".

But to clarify and maybe to help the OP, the authors of the Hebrew Bible never intended their work to be read "from first page to the last" in the same way a novel or a business strategy book is read. First of all, "complete" copies were almost non-existent. Nobody had a complete Hebrew Bible on their nightstand. There were scrolls intended to be read aloud as a community, not in a private setting (see for example the passages in Exodus and Nehemiah were the books are read to the people, or in Chronicles were the scrolls are read to the King by the scribes, or the instructions in the letter to the Colossians to read the letter to the church and then to send it to other churches).

Second, the scriptures are obviously intended to be meditative reading or hymns for celebrations (e.g. Psalms). And the recurrence/circularity/repetition of themes leads you to believe that people were supposed to carefully meditate on a passage and find the "hyperlinks" to other Scriptures. For example, the theme of "salvation on an ark from the waters" appears in Genesis 6-9 and Exodus 2 in completely different stories. Joseph (Genesis 37-50) and Daniel (Daniel 2-12) carry the theme of "young Hebrew leader that gained a prominent position in a foreign court by interpreting dreams". You'll also find four different instances of "young man finds a beautiful and helpful woman in a well" four times, starting on Genesis 26. So don't be afraid on keep finding these interlinked stories and make sense of their overall message.

At the same time, as you read through the books there's a sense of "progression" in the overall history of redemption, in the sense that there is progress in the cycle of promise-fulfillment: Adam and Eve's descendants are the fruit of God's creation and his command to humankind to rule the earth, Exodus is read as the fulfillment of the promises to the patriarchs and matriarchs in Genesis, the Covenant in the Pentateuch is an expansion of that original promise, King David receives a promise that is fulfilled in Solomon and that is expanded in the Prophets, the Babylonian captivity is seen not as the destruction of the people of Israel but as an opportunity to re-affirm the promises to David and Abraham, etc. That's why Christians in the first century went back to read the Old Testament and they saw Jesus Christ as the culmination of that promise-fulfillment cycle. 

[reneranucci]

So there are four background resources that have helped me a lot in understanding the Bible as literature. I'm a Christian so I'm definitely biased but I think these resources can help people even if they are not committed to the Christian faith:

1. Watch the Bible Project Youtube videos that introduce and summarize every book. These are short videos that provide a lot of perspective and guidance on what to look for in the book, what the author's message is, etc. See for example their video on the book of Daniel and you'll appreciate how it guides your reading of an otherwise symbolic/cryptic book. It's an evangelical project so you can expect the videos to assume that the Bible is the revelation from God and that Christ is the Son of God and Savior of men.

2. The Youtube series "Introduction to the Old Testament" with Yale prof. Christine Hayes. When you start feeling that reading is a slog, these lectures can give you a big-picture view and motivate you to keep going. This is a non-religious college course focused on providing a complete overview of the Old Testament, a summary of each book's themes, and the main theories about the composition of the Bible. I would consider these theories "liberal" since they essentially deny any Divine authorship or intended meaning, but they're representative of the mainstream in Bible studies. 

3. If you want a concise commentary to consult when there's something you don't understand (and there's a lot to not understand, especially in the OT) I'll recommend the NIV Compact Bible Commentary by John Sailhamer. I bought my copy for $6 at Thriftbooks and it's a very valuable resource.

4. If you want to be amazed at how intricate, deliberate and sophisticated the Bible literature is, read the Art of Biblical Narrative by Robert Alter. This is an academic book and a little bit heavier, but it provides an excellent perspective on the Bible as literature. He is an American Jewish scholar (although I don't think he writes from a conservative perspective).

[hefdaddy42]

3. If you want a concise commentary to consult when there's something you don't understand (and there's a lot to not understand, especially in the OT) I'll recommend the NIV Compact Bible Commentary by John Sailhamer. I bought my copy for $6 at Thriftbooks and it's a very valuable resource.

I agree, this is a good concise commentary.

Personally, I get a lot of use from the Oxford Bible Commentary.  However, it is not what I would call "concise," as it weighs approximately 15 pounds lol

[reneranucci]

3. If you want a concise commentary to consult when there's something you don't understand (and there's a lot to not understand, especially in the OT) I'll recommend the NIV Compact Bible Commentary by John Sailhamer. I bought my copy for $6 at Thriftbooks and it's a very valuable resource.

I agree, this is a good concise commentary.

Personally, I get a lot of use from the Oxford Bible Commentary.  However, it is not what I would call "concise," as it weighs approximately 15 pounds lol

Plus the smallest font size ever plus trying to say a lot in as little space as possible.

[hefdaddy42]

3. If you want a concise commentary to consult when there's something you don't understand (and there's a lot to not understand, especially in the OT) I'll recommend the NIV Compact Bible Commentary by John Sailhamer. I bought my copy for $6 at Thriftbooks and it's a very valuable resource.

I agree, this is a good concise commentary.

Personally, I get a lot of use from the Oxford Bible Commentary.  However, it is not what I would call "concise," as it weighs approximately 15 pounds lol

Plus the smallest font size ever plus trying to say a lot in as little space as possible.

It's pretty small.

[Phoenix87x]

So I am failing miserable at reading the NKJ version of the bible. Do you guys know of a version that has more modern language that is easier to comprehend, but also retains the original message as much as possible?

Thanks

[WilliamMunny]

So I am failing miserable at reading the NKJ version of the bible. Do you guys know of a version that has more modern language that is easier to comprehend, but also retains the original message as much as possible?

Thanks

There are a ton of companion guides that will essentially give you a 'layman's terms' explanation as you make your way through it.

I think, if the NKJ version of the bible is giving you an issue, I'd advise finding a reference guide so that you can contextualize what you are reading (as opposed to going with a whole new translation). I'm biased here (lifelong Catholic), but if I'm going to read the bible, I want to read the bible (not some modern fan-fiction interpretation).

That said, it's your exercise, so it's really up to you how you choose to proceed. Hop on Amazon and you will find all sorts of modern translations to choose from (let the user reviews be your guide).

[Jamesman42]

I like the New Living Translation for getting a more modern version of a verse, even if it isn't the best for learning.

[hefdaddy42]

So I am failing miserable at reading the NKJ version of the bible. Do you guys know of a version that has more modern language that is easier to comprehend, but also retains the original message as much as possible?

Thanks

First of all, if the letters KJV are in it, put it aside.  It's not written/translated for you, it was written/translated for people of previous times.

Some more readable versions include the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), the New International Version (NIV), and the NET (New English Translation).  These versions do a good job of balancing formal equivalence translation (word-for-word translation) with dynamic equivalence translation (phrase-for-phrase or idea-for-idea translation) with good readability.  I use all three regularly.  The NET actually has extensive notes from the translators at the bottom of each page which go into great detail as to why they made the translation decisions they did (because all translation is interpretation).

[Phoenix87x]

Thank you so much everyone.

I ordered two versions which are supposed to use more modern wording.

[hefdaddy42]

Thank you so much everyone.

I ordered two versions which are supposed to use more modern wording.

[Skeever]

I like my New Jerusalem Bible.
And no, not just because JRR Tolkien is credited as one of the translators. Promise. 

[hefdaddy42]

I like my New Jerusalem Bible.
And no, not just because JRR Tolkien is credited as one of the translators. Promise. 

It's not one of my go-to versions, but it is very interesting, and I do like it.

[Phoenix87x]

Ok here goes a question,

Did Lucifer fall before adam and eve? If so, what exactly was his grievance. Or was it more just that he thought he could be above God? 

I guess all these years I thought he rebelled as he felt man was favored more over the angels?

[MirrorMask]

How far along are you in reading the Bible? reading it is interesting not only to find out what's actually in there, but what actually isn't. I'm probably not qualified to answer since I'm one of the many who did not read the entire thing, but as far as I remember, there's surprisingly very little about the devil in the actual Bible.

In the beginning there's the infamous talking snake of course, but I don't think it's ever identified as the devil. And then "Satan" shows up to tempt Jesus in the desert where "satan" in the context means "adversary", and somehow became a proper name for the devil.

I would not be surprised if what we know, or what we think we know about the fall of Lucifer, comes also from Milton's Paradise Lost, and not the Bible. There are many things about religion that we assume from common knowledge or, dare I say, "pop culture". There's probably way more about Hell in Dante's Divine Comedy than in the actual Bible, where if I remember correctly there's just a mention of the Genna as a place of hellfire and torment and not much more.

Also the appearance of the devil himself - if you picture him with hooves, horns and a pitchfork, that's just because they gave him the trait of old pagan gods that were meant to be eradicated from people's ways and culture once christianity took over. The horns are really the ones of the god Cernunnos, which in turn got them from the deer, one of the most important animals of the forest. The pitchfork is Poseidon's trident, and the hooves are the hooves of Pan. All pagan gods that were associated with the devil to eradicate them, or at the very least, give negative connotations to those symbols.

Again, I'm one of those who never read the Bible front to back so probably I'm missing something, but as far as I remember, what we know about "the devil" comes 20% from the actual religious texts, and 80% from "pop culture" for lack of a better term.