Poll

Scenario - your adult child tells you that they have come to the conclusion they will not be having children.  What is your response and why?

You have my full support for this decision
I respect your decision but disagree with it
I completely disagree with your decision and think you will live to regret it
I want to talk with you more about this (secret internal dialogue "I can get you to change your mind.")
Good!  I wish more people felt this way!
Attitudes like this will be the end of civilization as we know it
None of the above - let me explain in the comments

Author Topic: Child Free By Choice  (Read 3438 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2023, 08:00:09 AM »
About the bolded part above - I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.  I know plenty of extremely intelligent people who wind up getting pregnant without wanting to be and wind up being pretty shitty parents.  And I know plenty of people with fairly low IQ or who have learning disabilities of some sort who wind up having kids who are straight A students and go on to very successful lives.  It isn't cut and dried as your statement makes it out to be.  And IMO if I - a fairly intelligent person - were to be on fence about wanting kids, your argument would not sway me in the slightest.  I don't think children should be brought into the world with a job.  A job like 'fix my parents relationship problems' or 'ensure future generations of smart people.'
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2023, 08:04:10 AM »
I guess I am the lone person who chose the "This will be the end of Civilization" option. And no, I'd never hang that guilt on any one person for their choice. But therein lies the problem. It's totally fair to not want kids, and I support it on an individual, case-by-case basis. But also, several developed nations are now facing imminent demographic collapse, and surely society is not sustainable when we've created a world where this becomes the default choice. A society without children is a culturally stagnant one. In a truly vibrant, flourishing society, there should be so many kids that the adults can  barely keep them under control. And yet, here we are. We will NEVER see any meaningful change to our society, our way of life, our culture, or anything else while we are dying society.

I think you're talking - in that quote and your subsequent post - about something implicit in my answer (and someone else referenced it too).  It ought to be the person's choice, "shitty person" or not (not my call to make whether someone else is a "shitty" person or not) but whoever makes their decision, it's theirs.   Now, though, in our society, we have advocacy for EVERYTHING.    People just can't STFU about pressing their viewpoint on others.   I don't mean "sharing when asked" I mean FORCING (what I, I believe rightly, call "bullying") by creating stigmas for alternate viewpoints.   

Yes, you are right: economically speaking there is an optimal development (birth) rate for sustainable nations.   Many - including the US - are now well below that.  The world will adapt, of course, the analysis at least in part empirical, but still.   

I think this subject is a fantastic example of the complexity of the issues facing a national and global society, even as those national (for me, America) and global societies are less and less willing OR able to handle those complexities in any reasonable and defensible fashion.

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2023, 12:01:37 PM »
I don't have children, and I probably never will have. But if I would have, I would totally understand their choice and decision.

Also, it depends on WHY someone doesn't want children. They don't feel responsable enough? they fear the word is too ugly to raise a child in it? no money? they just don't like kids? all are valid reasons. It's not only life that matters - it's also the quality of life. I'd rather have a child not being born rather than seeing him / her live through a life of misery and neglect.

I'll just toss out a possibly "hard truth", or at the very least, a quite strong opinion: just because every couple can have children, it doesn't mean they should. There are countless couples who are totally unfit for being parents, but there will never be a proper and fair way to judge who's worthy and who's not unless we'd live in a dystopian society, so everyone has of course a right to have kids.... but so many people just shouldn't.

Also, I don't think civilization is at risk - there will always be people who will have children, I can't imagine we'd reach a point where the number of people not having kids vastly outnumbers the ones still having ones, so we're not at risk for extinction if just some more people decide that they can't give a child the stability, support and love every kid would deserve.
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2023, 12:30:08 PM »
I don't think very many people think humans are at risk of extinction due to lowering birth rates. I do think our entire economic system will be hurting in the next couple of generations, since it's basically built on having more and more people to buy shit and fund social security.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2023, 04:11:30 PM »
I don't think very many people think humans are at risk of extinction due to lowering birth rates. I do think our entire economic system will be hurting in the next couple of generations, since it's basically built on having more and more people to buy shit and fund social security.

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Offline Skeever

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2023, 06:37:10 AM »
I guess I am the lone person who chose the "This will be the end of Civilization" option. And no, I'd never hang that guilt on any one person for their choice. But therein lies the problem. It's totally fair to not want kids, and I support it on an individual, case-by-case basis. But also, several developed nations are now facing imminent demographic collapse, and surely society is not sustainable when we've created a world where this becomes the default choice. A society without children is a culturally stagnant one. In a truly vibrant, flourishing society, there should be so many kids that the adults can  barely keep them under control. And yet, here we are. We will NEVER see any meaningful change to our society, our way of life, our culture, or anything else while we are dying society.

I think you're talking - in that quote and your subsequent post - about something implicit in my answer (and someone else referenced it too).  It ought to be the person's choice, "shitty person" or not (not my call to make whether someone else is a "shitty" person or not) but whoever makes their decision, it's theirs.   Now, though, in our society, we have advocacy for EVERYTHING.    People just can't STFU about pressing their viewpoint on others.   I don't mean "sharing when asked" I mean FORCING (what I, I believe rightly, call "bullying") by creating stigmas for alternate viewpoints.   

Yes, you are right: economically speaking there is an optimal development (birth) rate for sustainable nations.   Many - including the US - are now well below that.  The world will adapt, of course, the analysis at least in part empirical, but still.   

I think this subject is a fantastic example of the complexity of the issues facing a national and global society, even as those national (for me, America) and global societies are less and less willing OR able to handle those complexities in any reasonable and defensible fashion.

Unfortunately, this attitude is pretty common from people of my position (and I hold, basically, the generic Roman Catholic point of view). We don't change peoples minds about having kids by laying guilt into them, or telling them they're going to cause the collapse of Civilization by being so "selfish". Rather, we need to honor people's choices, on the individual level, while doing what we can to nudge "undecideds" over to the side of parenthood.

Barto summed it up pretty well too, being somewhere between "it'll be the collapse..." and "I wish more people would." The difference for me (and again, this is the stock RC opinion) is that there can never be too many people - and the idea that something as fundamental to the species as reproduction could ever been seen as unwanted or inconvenient should never enter our thinking. I get what Barto's saying, and I respect him enough to get a good chuckle out of it. Humanity are awful. That's why we need as many of us as possible to up the chances of a few good luminaries coming along and lighting our way.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 08:07:35 AM by Skeever »

Online Podaar

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2023, 07:20:58 AM »
My youngest daughter (31) made the decision long ago not to have children. I think she was 17 or 18 when she started on birth control. Her reason? She's just too selfish and doesn't want some kid sapping away her resources (time and money) that she's worked for. It probably won't surprise you that I agree with her on the too selfish bit.  :lol

My youngest son (28) doesn't seem interested enough in reality to ever find someone with which to breed. He'll probably be childless.

I support them both. Besides, the other children have given me seven grandchildren, so I'm just fine.  :biggrin:
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2023, 07:24:56 AM »
My youngest daughter (31) made the decision long ago not to have children. I think she was 17 or 18 when she started on birth control. Her reason? She's just too selfish and doesn't want some kid sapping away her resources (time and money) that she's worked for. It probably won't surprise you that I agree with her on the too selfish bit.  :lol

My youngest son (28) doesn't seem interested enough in reality to ever find someone with which to breed. He'll probably be childless.

I support them both. Besides, the other children have given me seven grandchildren, so I'm just fine.  :biggrin:
The bolded is interesting.  I have heard many, many people express the desire for grandchildren as their kids get older.  I have never had such a desire.  I mean, if there are grandkids, great.  But I don't want my kids to have kids of their own just so I can have some grandkids to play with.
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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2023, 08:07:10 AM »
But I don't want my kids to have kids of their own just so I can have some grandkids to play with.

Nor do I.

Grandchildren are exceedingly fun to spoil, yet I would have had no problem if all of my children had chose to be childless. I wasn't consulted, nor would I have had a preference if I were. I simply take advantage of the current situation and enjoy them because they are there.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 08:21:09 AM by Podaar »
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Online ReaperKK

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2023, 08:09:34 AM »
I don't have kids and I don't want them but if I did have kids I would full support my child's choice to not have children.

Personally, I'm just selfish which is the main driving factor of not having kids. We didn't have much growing up so as I got older and started getting jobs that pay well I really value the ability to do whatever I want when I want (within reason obviously) and at 36 I haven't gotten tired of that. I don't hate kids, I love my niece and nephew but I just don't have that drive to have my own. Plus I always have this nagging worry that I'll be a terrible father like mine was.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2023, 08:30:12 AM »
But I don't want my kids to have kids of their own just so I can have some grandkids to play with.

Nor do I.

Grandchildren are exceedingly fun to spoil, yet I would have had no problem if all of my children had chose to be childless. I wasn't consulted, nor would I have had a preference if I were. I simply take advantage of the current situation and enjoy them because they are there.
I didn't mean to insinuate that you felt that way.  But I know plenty of people who DO feel that way, and your comment reminded me of them.  That's all I meant.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2023, 08:35:24 AM »
Short answer: The fuck did you come from adult children who are now telling me, your supposed Dad something?

Long answer: I would ultimately just be supporting them in whatever decision they make, but in guidance and advice I would likely swing to "Good! I wish more people felt this way" simply because I think so much of our society and the pressures involved with that push towards having children, that a sane and strong voice on the other side is warranted so that people can actually come to a neutral decision, if that makes sense.

Worth noting that neither myself nor my sister want kids, and my mother is not thrilled with that.
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Offline dparrott

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2023, 11:46:36 AM »
Fully support.  Kids are expensive.  In addition to eventually needing their own room, there's everything they need growing up.  I can barely pay for what me, my wife and our pets need, and I don't even pay rent!

The world gets worse and more dangerous every year.  Definitely not for bringing a new life into.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2023, 12:02:56 PM »
Let me start by saying I don't have kids and I have told my parents I don't want kids. 

So I chose option 1 because that's how I wish my own parents would treat me and in theory, I'd like to think if I had kids that I would respect their decision.

But sadly, my parents are somewhere around option 3/4.  They are not happy about it and constantly try to change my mind or say things like it's not right and that I am letting my family name die to shame me for my decision.  But funny enough, my mom usually turns it back around on herself "what have I done to raise you this way???" and some of that comes down to being in a family with 4 children, life was hectic as a child and for me, personally, I was always the left out child in the family.  There may be some truth to the way I was raised made me not want to have kids.  Seeing my parents stuggle with it.  I mean, seeing my own friends life with kids does little to sway me to want to have kids either.  IN the end, I don't blame my parents for my decision, it's just my personality and life choices don't make me see having children as something I want to do.

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2023, 12:06:21 PM »
Fully support.  Kids are expensive.  In addition to eventually needing their own room, there's everything they need growing up.  I can barely pay for what me, my wife and our pets need, and I don't even pay rent!

The world gets worse and more dangerous every year.  Definitely not for bringing a new life into.

Not to pivot this thread but do you have a source for this? I see this claim all the time and I personally disagree (Washington Post backs it up here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/14/theres-never-been-a-safer-time-to-be-a-kid-in-america/). We have near instant dissemination of world wide news through various outlets which might make things appear worse than they really are. On a completely micro level when I was a kid (I'm 36 now) you could get nabbed by a stranger and my parents wouldn't notice for hours until I was supposed to be home. Now kids have phones, or in my nieces case have gps tracked watches, and there are cameras everywhere recording everything that isn't to mention the safer cars, better medicine etc.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2023, 12:22:10 PM »
It's fairly easy to argue we've never been safer. But there are completely different threats now than there were 10 years ago or 59 for that matter.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2023, 12:25:59 PM »
I purposely left the idea of "the world is not a great place to raise a child" out of my response because I think it's a fairly bogus reason.  While I do get it though, like not so much of just violence, but social media and the pressure of life would make being a parent difficult.  BUT I think if you are a committed parent, these shouldn't be issues with wanting to start a family.  People have always and will continue (as far as I can tell) raise children in the current climate of the world. To me, that's not a good reason.  But if one felt so strongly as that was their reason, so be it, that's still your call at the end of the day that I would respect even if I think it's not a great reason. 

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2023, 12:27:27 PM »
It's fairly easy to argue we've never been safer. But there are completely different threats now than there were 10 years ago or 59 for that matter.

Such as global warming for example. We never could have imagined that we'd have to lock down to avoid a virus, and sure as hell we cannot imagine that we'll have to ration water. I'm not saying it will definitively happen, it's just that I think 99,9% of the "western world" sees rationing of water as something that happens only in poor third world countries, and they can't fathom that one day, soon, it could happen to us as well. Sure as hell when news of Sars broke in 2002-3 nobody thought "geez, if this would spread worldwide, we'd have to stop to go out and cancel all sporting events including the Olympic Games and rethink our way of living".
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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2023, 12:45:30 PM »
But funny enough, my mom usually turns it back around on herself "what have I done to raise you this way???"

Yeah, my mother has done the same from time to time over the years and I have to just shake my head and chuckle. She once said to me, "I'm sorry I wasn't the mother you needed. I failed you." I laughed and told her, "Mom, do you realize you just called me a failure...or at least a disappointment? I disagree. Completely."
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2023, 12:48:40 PM »
But funny enough, my mom usually turns it back around on herself "what have I done to raise you this way???"

Yeah, my mother has done the same from time to time over the years and I have to just shake my head and chuckle. She once said to me, "I'm sorry I wasn't the mother you needed. I failed you." I laughed and told her, "Mom, do you realize you just called me a failure...or at least a disappointment? I disagree. Completely."

Ugh - that is such a passive aggressive way to handle issues.  I recognize it from my own mother who was the queen at slinging guilt around to get what she wanted.

It took me so long to stop letting that shit bother me and get to the point of seeing it for what it was and laughing it off.  One of the things I am most proud of in my own parenting is not using that kind of tactic with my own kids.  I'm sure I fucked them up in other ways though.  :D
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Online Podaar

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2023, 12:58:47 PM »
Well, Harmony, I've been fortunate to not ever have been subject to motivation by guilt. Even at a very young age. My mother knows this, but due to her...um, religious notions, she helplessly wishes for me to fit into a mold I can't even imagine. By every other metric I'm as successful, kind, and well adjusted as any parent could hope for. I don't really take any offense for her attitude. It's more amusing than anything.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2023, 01:06:31 PM »
Well, Harmony, I've been fortunate to not ever have been subject to motivation by guilt. Even at a very young age. My mother knows this, but due to her...um, religious notions, she helplessly wishes for me to fit into a mold I can't even imagine. By every other metric I'm as successful, kind, and well adjusted as any parent could hope for. I don't really take any offense for her attitude. It's more amusing than anything.

Wow, this sounds a bit similar.  I'll never be the perfect Christian boy my parents wanted me to be.  I don't think my parents don't love me or anything like that, my parents are great, but there is a bit of a feeling of disappointment from them and a feeling I'll never be their favorite child.  It's OK, I've long ago accepted that to be the case and I don't hold it against my parents for favoritism as they are just humans too.  But the comment I used as an example is something that doesn't go unnoticed. And also relating to not wanting to have a child, the feeling of disappointment always comes out.  The funny thing, my older sister, the one who my parents love the most, also doesn't want to have kids.  But she rarely ever (or maybe it's just not in front of me) gets the same comments from my parents.  It may tie into what my father guilts me about, passing on the family name.  But I don't get why I'm guilted on that, I have a brother who is getting married soon.  He's got a good chance to keep the family name going.  I don't see it as my responsibility or my burden to bare.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2023, 01:13:58 PM »
I wonder if there is some residual generational pressures at play here.  I know when my great grandparents were making their families, large families were commonplace especially in farming communities.  Mostly because the kids became cheap labor but also because life expectancy in childhood was pretty abysmal.

Certainly as generations have moved forward, this pressure to have very large families has eased a bit.  But I think especially for some religions, it is still encouraged - Mormons, Catholics, Baptists.  Maybe part of the parental pressure to 'carry on the family name' springs from some of those beliefs.  It doesn't make it ok - but it just goes to show how ingrained these beliefs can become and how difficult breaking cycles can be.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2023, 01:18:17 PM »
I wonder if there is some residual generational pressures at play here.  I know when my great grandparents were making their families, large families were commonplace especially in farming communities.  Mostly because the kids became cheap labor but also because life expectancy in childhood was pretty abysmal.

Certainly as generations have moved forward, this pressure to have very large families has eased a bit.  But I think especially for some religions, it is still encouraged - Mormons, Catholics, Baptists.  Maybe part of the parental pressure to 'carry on the family name' springs from some of those beliefs.  It doesn't make it ok - but it just goes to show how ingrained these beliefs can become and how difficult breaking cycles can be.

It's definitely religion in my case, my parents are Christian and definitely believe the religion should be spread via offspring and of course word.

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2023, 02:11:06 PM »
I have two kids, 16 and 23. I don't think that they will get kids.

I will fully support their descision when they take it.

I am not sure I would have had kids if I was in child rearing age now.

The world does not need to be peopled and unfortunately my kids grow up in a totally different time than I.

When I grew up everything looked to get better. Today we have one crisis afer another. With climate crisis looming over everything.

So yeah.... I love my kids to death but feel really sorry for them as well

Offline pg1067

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2023, 04:03:20 PM »
Certainly as generations have moved forward, this pressure to have very large families has eased a bit.  But I think especially for some religions, it is still encouraged - Mormons, Catholics, Baptists.  Maybe part of the parental pressure to 'carry on the family name' springs from some of those beliefs.  It doesn't make it ok - but it just goes to show how ingrained these beliefs can become and how difficult breaking cycles can be.

I think your overall point is right.

As far as Catholics, I was born and raised into a Roman Catholic family and attended 12 years of Catholic school.  I haven't attended mass probably since my kids were baptized and haven't regularly attended in more than 30 years.  We were never taught or pressured to have large families (although I and my two best friends growing up came from families of 5, 6 and 7, and I know a guy from high school who I think has 6-7 kids himself).  What we WERE taught, however, was that any form of artificial birth control was a sin.  My GUESS is that, by the time I was in school, most of my classmates (like myself) didn't buy into that and it's not really a thing anymore.  But it very much was a thing for Boomers and Silents who were Roman Catholic (I believe other groups of Catholics took a more progressive stance earlier than the Romans).  And, based on some people I know, it very much still is for Mormons.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2023, 05:44:28 AM »
I have two kids, 16 and 23. I don't think that they will get kids.

I will fully support their descision when they take it.

I am not sure I would have had kids if I was in child rearing age now.

The world does not need to be peopled and unfortunately my kids grow up in a totally different time than I.

When I grew up everything looked to get better. Today we have one crisis afer another. With climate crisis looming over everything.

So yeah.... I love my kids to death but feel really sorry for them as well

I find this is pretty subjective though, and you can look at it the other way if you want. You could also make the argument that things have never been better, that everyday that goes by a new child is born who has a better chance to live a happy, healthy life then the child born one second before them.

After all, think back through history at some of the times when people continue to have children. You have some gruesome events like the bubonic plague and famines throughout Europe as well as war and genocide and people still decided to have children.

I am not trying to pick on you but I kind of hate that this line of thinking is what we are incentivized to do in the developed world, i.e., people not having children because they can't afford to or don't have the social or family support in place, but instead of attacking those issues we are told that we live in a singular moment of crisis by the media.

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2023, 08:03:47 AM »
I have two kids, 16 and 23. I don't think that they will get kids.

I will fully support their descision when they take it.

I am not sure I would have had kids if I was in child rearing age now.

The world does not need to be peopled and unfortunately my kids grow up in a totally different time than I.

When I grew up everything looked to get better. Today we have one crisis afer another. With climate crisis looming over everything.

So yeah.... I love my kids to death but feel really sorry for them as well

I find this is pretty subjective though, and you can look at it the other way if you want. You could also make the argument that things have never been better, that everyday that goes by a new child is born who has a better chance to live a happy, healthy life then the child born one second before them.

After all, think back through history at some of the times when people continue to have children. You have some gruesome events like the bubonic plague and famines throughout Europe as well as war and genocide and people still decided to have children.

I am not trying to pick on you but I kind of hate that this line of thinking is what we are incentivized to do in the developed world, i.e., people not having children because they can't afford to or don't have the social or family support in place, but instead of attacking those issues we are told that we live in a singular moment of crisis by the media.

I'm sorry but no....
My kids worry about overpopulation and climate change.
They feel that they have been delt a short straw.

You can look at it another way if you want to but youth, at least here in Sweden, have a pretty pesimistic view of the future.

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2023, 08:08:47 AM »
And.... no it's not media who tell ud there is a climate crisis going on.
It's the scientists of the world who do so.

We can also use our own minds and perceptions to see that we get more and more exteme weather.

Saying that it's a media cretion is akin to the ostrich puttng his head in the sand....

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2023, 08:32:12 AM »
And.... no it's not media who tell ud there is a climate crisis going on.
It's the scientists of the world who do so.

We can also use our own minds and perceptions to see that we get more and more exteme weather.

Saying that it's a media cretion is akin to the ostrich puttng his head in the sand....

Yeah and we can blame the rise of Industrialization which only a certain group of people created and started. There were other groups of people who tried their very best to warn and say that what was happening will have negative effects and consequences in the future. Look where we are now because that group of people ignored them and thought them uncivilized because they weren't in agreement with the progress of globalization.

But also, we humans have survived so much that it's laughable to think we won't survive any further detriments. Yes it's difficult, but also, we humans have always adapted to change.

This is why I find the excuse of society is hard and difficult and we are facing tough times to be quite laughable as well.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2023, 08:43:27 AM »
I have two kids, 16 and 23. I don't think that they will get kids.

I will fully support their descision when they take it.

I am not sure I would have had kids if I was in child rearing age now.

The world does not need to be peopled and unfortunately my kids grow up in a totally different time than I.

When I grew up everything looked to get better. Today we have one crisis afer another. With climate crisis looming over everything.

So yeah.... I love my kids to death but feel really sorry for them as well

I find this is pretty subjective though, and you can look at it the other way if you want. You could also make the argument that things have never been better, that everyday that goes by a new child is born who has a better chance to live a happy, healthy life then the child born one second before them.

After all, think back through history at some of the times when people continue to have children. You have some gruesome events like the bubonic plague and famines throughout Europe as well as war and genocide and people still decided to have children.

I am not trying to pick on you but I kind of hate that this line of thinking is what we are incentivized to do in the developed world, i.e., people not having children because they can't afford to or don't have the social or family support in place, but instead of attacking those issues we are told that we live in a singular moment of crisis by the media.

The thing is we can't see what the actual future will be. It's all related to the fear of the unknown, human perception and assumption of what may be.

Scientists predict things, this doesn't mean it's true. There's a plausibility it may be true, but we humans won't know until it does happen. If you observe things, listen, and are aware of nature, you'll get a sense of where things could possibly end up. Such as, when humans developed things, these things poisoned the water, earth, and sky. Some humans were very aware that if we don't take care of the Earth, we will only destroy ourselves, such as creating things that do poison the water, land, and sky. A reason why some people never bothered or even thought to create such things.


This also plays into why I am saying that the perception of having children is entirely cultural based. This is a reason why some of your parents are adamant about children because that's what their cultural beliefs instill. This is another reason why Patrilineal based cultures such as China value boys more so than girls. Yet, Matrilineal based cultures value or praise the birth of a girl, more so than the boy, but both have their places within the culture.


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Offline Skeever

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2023, 09:11:44 AM »
I have two kids, 16 and 23. I don't think that they will get kids.

I will fully support their descision when they take it.

I am not sure I would have had kids if I was in child rearing age now.

The world does not need to be peopled and unfortunately my kids grow up in a totally different time than I.

When I grew up everything looked to get better. Today we have one crisis afer another. With climate crisis looming over everything.

So yeah.... I love my kids to death but feel really sorry for them as well

I find this is pretty subjective though, and you can look at it the other way if you want. You could also make the argument that things have never been better, that everyday that goes by a new child is born who has a better chance to live a happy, healthy life then the child born one second before them.

After all, think back through history at some of the times when people continue to have children. You have some gruesome events like the bubonic plague and famines throughout Europe as well as war and genocide and people still decided to have children.

I am not trying to pick on you but I kind of hate that this line of thinking is what we are incentivized to do in the developed world, i.e., people not having children because they can't afford to or don't have the social or family support in place, but instead of attacking those issues we are told that we live in a singular moment of crisis by the media.

I'm sorry but no....
My kids worry about overpopulation and climate change.
They feel that they have been delt a short straw.

You can look at it another way if you want to but youth, at least here in Sweden, have a pretty pesimistic view of the future.

This is not science though. Sure, scientists agree that climate change is happening and that it will be catastrophic, but science does not tell us what the world population should be or how people will find a way to handle it. I understand being so scared of it that you do not want to face it, but whether you think it's worse than things men have faced before is pretty subjective, having less people around won't stop it from happening anymore than having more people around will.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2023, 09:48:06 AM »
I have two kids, 16 and 23. I don't think that they will get kids.

I will fully support their descision when they take it.

I am not sure I would have had kids if I was in child rearing age now.

The world does not need to be peopled and unfortunately my kids grow up in a totally different time than I.

When I grew up everything looked to get better. Today we have one crisis afer another. With climate crisis looming over everything.

So yeah.... I love my kids to death but feel really sorry for them as well

I find this is pretty subjective though, and you can look at it the other way if you want. You could also make the argument that things have never been better, that everyday that goes by a new child is born who has a better chance to live a happy, healthy life then the child born one second before them.

After all, think back through history at some of the times when people continue to have children. You have some gruesome events like the bubonic plague and famines throughout Europe as well as war and genocide and people still decided to have children.

I am not trying to pick on you but I kind of hate that this line of thinking is what we are incentivized to do in the developed world, i.e., people not having children because they can't afford to or don't have the social or family support in place, but instead of attacking those issues we are told that we live in a singular moment of crisis by the media.

I'm with Skeever on this.  This notion that the world is as bad as it's ever been is - and I say this with respect - personal bias creeping in.  Life expectancies are expanding, medical care in general has never been better (that one person doesn't have access doesn't mean that as a whole it's not effective).   

I am FAR better positioned to raise kids than my parents were, or their parents.   I have access to schools and programs that weren't available even when I was a kid, let alone when my parents were kids. 

Sure, climate change MIGHT be an issue (not saying it doesn't exist, saying the IMPACTS might be catastrophic for any one individual) but that's to be debated.

For every danger now, there is/was one for each previous generation that was a) far more likely to occur, and b) far more devastating in the impacts.   

I don't have to worry about being mauled in my cave by a bear.  I don't have to worry about dying because I got bit by a snake or coyote and the wound got infected.   I don't have to worry about a TON of things that are immediate and high probability of both occurring and causing direct harm. 

And even IF you were of the ilk to say "the world is a shithole and we shouldn't bring kids into it", wouldn't the logic be to BRING kids into it and teach them early and often that their lot in life is to help fix this shit?   

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2023, 10:09:01 AM »
I have two kids, 16 and 23. I don't think that they will get kids.

I will fully support their descision when they take it.

I am not sure I would have had kids if I was in child rearing age now.

The world does not need to be peopled and unfortunately my kids grow up in a totally different time than I.

When I grew up everything looked to get better. Today we have one crisis afer another. With climate crisis looming over everything.

So yeah.... I love my kids to death but feel really sorry for them as well

I find this is pretty subjective though, and you can look at it the other way if you want. You could also make the argument that things have never been better, that everyday that goes by a new child is born who has a better chance to live a happy, healthy life then the child born one second before them.

After all, think back through history at some of the times when people continue to have children. You have some gruesome events like the bubonic plague and famines throughout Europe as well as war and genocide and people still decided to have children.

I am not trying to pick on you but I kind of hate that this line of thinking is what we are incentivized to do in the developed world, i.e., people not having children because they can't afford to or don't have the social or family support in place, but instead of attacking those issues we are told that we live in a singular moment of crisis by the media.

I'm with Skeever on this.  This notion that the world is as bad as it's ever been is - and I say this with respect - personal bias creeping in.  Life expectancies are expanding, medical care in general has never been better (that one person doesn't have access doesn't mean that as a whole it's not effective).   

I am FAR better positioned to raise kids than my parents were, or their parents.   I have access to schools and programs that weren't available even when I was a kid, let alone when my parents were kids. 

Sure, climate change MIGHT be an issue (not saying it doesn't exist, saying the IMPACTS might be catastrophic for any one individual) but that's to be debated.

For every danger now, there is/was one for each previous generation that was a) far more likely to occur, and b) far more devastating in the impacts.   

I don't have to worry about being mauled in my cave by a bear.  I don't have to worry about dying because I got bit by a snake or coyote and the wound got infected.   I don't have to worry about a TON of things that are immediate and high probability of both occurring and causing direct harm. 

And even IF you were of the ilk to say "the world is a shithole and we shouldn't bring kids into it", wouldn't the logic be to BRING kids into it and teach them early and often that their lot in life is to help fix this shit?

Precisely, if the current world is shit, why not teach your children to change it around for the better?

Generational Trauma runs rampant in a lot of families and it's unfortunate when it continues. There are also children who grow up into adults who are trying their very best to break that cycle of generational trauma. This is not an easy thing to do, it's dirty, it's ugly, and there ís nothing pretty about sifting through the dirt and trash to help you break that chain. But it can be done.

The problems and situations of the past were my parents and grandparents worry. Nothing can change what happened in the past. What we humans can change and do have an effect on is the future. My worry is the now, how can what I do in the now potentially help and benefit the future of not only my children, but for the benefit of the entire ecology of the world.

My children, and future generations, should learn from the mistakes I have made and improve or do try something else, if what I did was revealed to not have been beneficial at all. Such as how we are now currently seeing how what was considered beneficial for humanity is the cause for the detriment of humanity. We are observing, in the now, what decisions and choices, which were likely for the betterment of the future, are in reality not beneificial, but are in fact detrimental for the betterment of the humanities future.

It's not the children's fault for what they're born into.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Child Free By Choice
« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2023, 12:05:47 PM »
verpopulation and climate change.
They feel that they have been delt a short straw.

You can look at it another way if you want to but youth, at least here in Sweden, have a pretty pesimistic view of the future.

As much as you say in your next post it's not media, I can't help but think that in a country as unpopulated as Sweden is worried about over population that it is anything else but media frenzy forming that opinion.  But this may be going too much into PR territory though.  I do think overpopulation is something to think about, but the concerns for it, IMO, are very localized to certain areas like India for example.  I'm not even too worried about China because it seems like their population is about to take a huge hit in the coming decades from their old 1 child policy.