Author Topic: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?  (Read 1660 times)

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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2023, 05:14:21 AM »
I can't really see why anyone would have a issue Gaga, she's clearly the real deal (even if you don't enjoy her music).  I'd be more interested in the reaction if Metallica or Maiden brought a pop princess like Britney or Katy Perry on stage  ;D

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2023, 05:28:16 AM »
Every time I hear her sing with a real band behind her I can't stop listening. When it's electronica behind her, it's just not my cup of tea.

That's a "me" thing.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2023, 07:44:03 AM »
Every time I hear her sing with a real band behind her I can't stop listening. When it's electronica behind her, it's just not my cup of tea.

That's a "me" thing.

It's an "us" thing.   I'm with you.  Find the "Edge of Glory" from the Howard Stern Show, where it's just her and a piano.  I can STILL tell you where I was when I first heard that (driving across the Pennsylvania Turnpike from Philadelphia to Erie for work).   It gave me chills (this could go in the goosebumps thread, for sure.)

Offline HOF

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2023, 07:56:34 AM »
Speaking of pop/metal crossovers (or in this case a pop country/metal crossover), the YouTube algorithm randomly fed me this performance of Ozzy’s “Mama, I’m Coming Home” by Carrie Underwood on Howard Stern.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=14xEuqenBKE

Can’t say I’ve ever heard her sing before, and I don’t love the affectation of her voice, but it was a nice overall performance.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2023, 08:11:57 AM »
Speaking of pop/metal crossovers (or in this case a pop country/metal crossover), the YouTube algorithm randomly fed me this performance of Ozzy’s “Mama, I’m Coming Home” by Carrie Underwood on Howard Stern.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=14xEuqenBKE

Can’t say I’ve ever heard her sing before, and I don’t love the affectation of her voice, but it was a nice overall performance.

She's a GREAT singer.   My wife sent me (this morning, in fact) a duet of her and Axl Rose at the Stagecoach festival doing Sweet Child O'Mine and Paradise City.  I'd post it but Axl kind of dominates the singing - she only does one verse of SCOM and I think only one verse of PC.   

Check out this song: Blown Away. Be patient; it's got the obligatory artsy beginning for about 45 seconds, and you have to get to the chorus to really get meat of the song.   That song gives me chills every time she sings "nothing left of yesterday..." I also like the doubled vocal on the "blown away" part; reminds me of the best moments when James does that in DT (I'm thinking of "This Is The Life").


Offline HOF

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2023, 08:26:28 AM »
Speaking of pop/metal crossovers (or in this case a pop country/metal crossover), the YouTube algorithm randomly fed me this performance of Ozzy’s “Mama, I’m Coming Home” by Carrie Underwood on Howard Stern.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=14xEuqenBKE

Can’t say I’ve ever heard her sing before, and I don’t love the affectation of her voice, but it was a nice overall performance.

She's a GREAT singer.   My wife sent me (this morning, in fact) a duet of her and Axl Rose at the Stagecoach festival doing Sweet Child O'Mine and Paradise City.  I'd post it but Axl kind of dominates the singing - she only does one verse of SCOM and I think only one verse of PC.   

Check out this song: Blown Away. Be patient; it's got the obligatory artsy beginning for about 45 seconds, and you have to get to the chorus to really get meat of the song.   That song gives me chills every time she sings "nothing left of yesterday..." I also like the doubled vocal on the "blown away" part; reminds me of the best moments when James does that in DT (I'm thinking of "This Is The Life").

Yeah, that's not bad at all. She definitely has a good voice. I struggle a bit with countrified singing, but I can sort of appreciate how similar modern country is to the the pop metal scene in the late 80s and early 90s.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2023, 09:31:19 AM »
Speaking of pop/metal crossovers (or in this case a pop country/metal crossover), the YouTube algorithm randomly fed me this performance of Ozzy’s “Mama, I’m Coming Home” by Carrie Underwood on Howard Stern.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=14xEuqenBKE

Can’t say I’ve ever heard her sing before, and I don’t love the affectation of her voice, but it was a nice overall performance.

She's a GREAT singer.   My wife sent me (this morning, in fact) a duet of her and Axl Rose at the Stagecoach festival doing Sweet Child O'Mine and Paradise City.  I'd post it but Axl kind of dominates the singing - she only does one verse of SCOM and I think only one verse of PC.   

Check out this song: Blown Away. Be patient; it's got the obligatory artsy beginning for about 45 seconds, and you have to get to the chorus to really get meat of the song.   That song gives me chills every time she sings "nothing left of yesterday..." I also like the doubled vocal on the "blown away" part; reminds me of the best moments when James does that in DT (I'm thinking of "This Is The Life").

Yeah, that's not bad at all. She definitely has a good voice. I struggle a bit with countrified singing, but I can sort of appreciate how similar modern country is to the the pop metal scene in the late 80s and early 90s.

"Country music" as it stands today is a weird, weird animal.  Very similar in some ways to country in the '70s, and in other ways very different.  There's a consolidation in Nashville that doesn't exist in the rock and pop realm; there's a ton of crossover in Nashville, that except for the very specific studio session work of guys like Lukather and his ilk, doesn't happen in rock/pop. 

There is some country - and it's dying out quickly - that I LOVE.  Waylon Jennings was every bit the artist that, say, a Steven Wilson is; the man could sing like a dream, he played a mean guitar (listen to the outro on his version of "Me And Bobby McGee") and wrote a ton of good tunes. 

And then there's this:


New country. Now, I'm not being fair, because that guy (Brett Young) does write his own songs, and he does play guitar, but it's a more pop oriented approach.  That pose is not someone that's out there for his art. All the guys look fairly alike - dark hair, well-groomed beards, sleeves, t-shirts and tight jeans - in the same way that the LA pop-metal scene all looked alike, either like vampires or drag queens, and all the girls look alike - cute blondes in tight skirts.  Parmalee is another one.  It's a much more image-oriented, record-company driven approach.   Not my thing, because the affectations are just as unconvincing as they are in the pop realm.  Waylon Jennings lived it.  Snorted it. Fucked it.  He was the real deal, and it was reflected in his music, the same way it's reflected in Taylor Swift's music, or Eddie Van Halen's music.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 10:52:24 AM by Stadler »

Offline Samsara

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2023, 09:45:18 AM »
I saw this the other day and meant to post about it then...

https://guitar.com/news/music-news/nita-strauss-gatekeeping-pop-rock/

Thoughts on Nita's take?

I think she is probably way more right than she is wrong, and there are many examples.

I think she's right, generally.

As hard rock and metal fans, many of us claim to be "open" to change, but it's really only "open" to a certain amount. It has to stay within a certain wheelhouse for most of us. And when it doesn't, it often pushes many of us away from a particular artist. I mean, sure, some of us are way more open to change than others, but being a hardcore listener/lover of hard rock and metal since 1984 (starting with Survivor's Vital Signs as the first guitar-driven rock record I fell in love with), I think Nita's statement is very accurate.

I mean, I like to think I'm a pretty willing listener. But I have limits on what "works" for me. If an artist swerves too far astray, I'll move on. Pop artists are a different breed, and frankly, a different kind of audience. So while I think Nita is correct, it really isn't apples to apples.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2023, 10:52:09 AM »
I don't know if I have the time of the energy to exactly flesh this out completely, but in general, I think men are stubborn, and pop fans, who are mostly women, are more adaptable. Men form an identity, and are more protective of it, and women (on things not related to their children), are way more tolerant of changes and tend to look at the big picture.
Surprised this made this far without comment.

I'm not sure that "pop fans" (whatever that means) are mostly women.  I would imagine it's fairly even.  And regardless, I don't think that what Nita is talking about has anything to do with the sex of the fans in question, but attitudes within the genre itself.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2023, 10:57:52 AM »
I saw this the other day and meant to post about it then...

https://guitar.com/news/music-news/nita-strauss-gatekeeping-pop-rock/

Thoughts on Nita's take?

I think she is probably way more right than she is wrong, and there are many examples.

I think she's right, generally.

As hard rock and metal fans, many of us claim to be "open" to change, but it's really only "open" to a certain amount. It has to stay within a certain wheelhouse for most of us. And when it doesn't, it often pushes many of us away from a particular artist. I mean, sure, some of us are way more open to change than others, but being a hardcore listener/lover of hard rock and metal since 1984 (starting with Survivor's Vital Signs as the first guitar-driven rock record I fell in love with), I think Nita's statement is very accurate.

I mean, I like to think I'm a pretty willing listener. But I have limits on what "works" for me. If an artist swerves too far astray, I'll move on. Pop artists are a different breed, and frankly, a different kind of audience. So while I think Nita is correct, it really isn't apples to apples.

I think the "move on" part is the key part.  There are very, very few musicians who I feel any sort of "obligation" to.  I really don't get the "liking a musician as cult member" sort of mentality.  If an artist moves out of my wheelhouse - as U2, REM, Scorpions, and a couple others have done - I don't lose a minutes' sleep in moving on.  I feel no connection or obligation to them in any sort of non-commerce way.   Even someone like Mike, who I've met and support in a way that goes beyond solely the music, it still has limits.  There are things he does - musically, this is not a critique - that I'm not into.  I feel no compelling reason to confirm my "bona fides" as a fan if I don't buy the latest Winery Dogs CD, or no bitterness to Mike that it's not my thing. 

There are people that feel "burned" by their artists when the movement is too much.  Metallica.  Kiss.  Genesis.  It's not personal, kids; people grow and evolve and sometimes our paths cross and sometimes they diverge.  We have to accept that.  But we live in a weird society; Facebook is all about "maintaining connections" even when those connections have diverged. I'm also not that guy that reaches out to girls I dated in high school thinking we're both the same people in the same place. 

Offline TAC

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2023, 11:07:53 AM »
I don't know if I have the time of the energy to exactly flesh this out completely, but in general, I think men are stubborn, and pop fans, who are mostly women, are more adaptable. Men form an identity, and are more protective of it, and women (on things not related to their children), are way more tolerant of changes and tend to look at the big picture.
Surprised this made this far without comment.

I'm not sure that "pop fans" (whatever that means) are mostly women.  I would imagine it's fairly even.  And regardless, I don't think that what Nita is talking about has anything to do with the sex of the fans in question, but attitudes within the genre itself.

No, she's not talking about the sex of the fans, but I'd venture that rock/metal is highly dominated by male fans and pop is highly dominated by females.
What I'm saying is characteristics of each sex largely drives the attitudes of each genre's fandom and reactions.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2023, 11:10:47 AM »
Is that why country music is for pussies?


I'll see myself out now.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2023, 11:18:40 AM »
 :heart

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2023, 11:28:19 AM »
I don't know if I have the time of the energy to exactly flesh this out completely, but in general, I think men are stubborn, and pop fans, who are mostly women, are more adaptable. Men form an identity, and are more protective of it, and women (on things not related to their children), are way more tolerant of changes and tend to look at the big picture.
Surprised this made this far without comment.

I'm not sure that "pop fans" (whatever that means) are mostly women.  I would imagine it's fairly even.  And regardless, I don't think that what Nita is talking about has anything to do with the sex of the fans in question, but attitudes within the genre itself.

No, she's not talking about the sex of the fans, but I'd venture that rock/metal is highly dominated by male fans and pop is highly dominated by females.
What I'm saying is characteristics of each sex largely drives the attitudes of each genre's fandom and reactions.
And what I'm saying is that while the metal fanbase is unquestionably dominated by male fans, I think you are wrong that pop is "highly dominated by females".
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2023, 11:32:37 AM »
My wife is more of a metal fan than I am.  While I like metal, I tend to gravitate more to melody.  I like the mixture of both. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2023, 11:33:28 AM »
My wife is more of a metal fan than I am.  While I like metal, I tend to gravitate more to melody.  I like the mixture of both.

Guess we know who wears the pants in your household

Offline TAC

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2023, 11:48:56 AM »
I don't know if I have the time of the energy to exactly flesh this out completely, but in general, I think men are stubborn, and pop fans, who are mostly women, are more adaptable. Men form an identity, and are more protective of it, and women (on things not related to their children), are way more tolerant of changes and tend to look at the big picture.
Surprised this made this far without comment.

I'm not sure that "pop fans" (whatever that means) are mostly women.  I would imagine it's fairly even.  And regardless, I don't think that what Nita is talking about has anything to do with the sex of the fans in question, but attitudes within the genre itself.

No, she's not talking about the sex of the fans, but I'd venture that rock/metal is highly dominated by male fans and pop is highly dominated by females.
What I'm saying is characteristics of each sex largely drives the attitudes of each genre's fandom and reactions.
And what I'm saying is that while the metal fanbase is unquestionably dominated by male fans, I think you are wrong that pop is "highly dominated by females".

Well, I recently read something that the men's bathrooms on the Taylor Swift tour are basically now women's bathrooms. Look at pop boy bands. They're literally marketed to girls.

I hardly think pop fans are even distributed between the sexes. I think it's dominated by female fans. Not sure how that's measured, but as a general observer of music for 40 years, that's just my gut feeling.

So my hypothesis is that the difference in the gatekeeping between the two genres, could be influenced by the dominant sexes of each genre's audience.

would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2023, 12:04:45 PM »
My wife is more of a metal fan than I am.  While I like metal, I tend to gravitate more to melody.  I like the mixture of both.

Guess we know who wears the pants in your household

Like I need to tell you.  :lol
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2023, 01:59:22 PM »
Is that why country music is for pussies?


I'll see myself out now.

 :tdwn :omg: ;D

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2023, 03:22:24 PM »
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline lonestar

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2023, 03:54:32 PM »
My wife is more of a metal fan than I am.  While I like metal, I tend to gravitate more to melody.  I like the mixture of both.

Guess we know who wears the pants in your household

Like I need to tell you.  :lol

True that  :lol

Offline Orbert

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Re: Gatekeeping in rock and metal?
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2023, 05:04:41 PM »
This conversation has already moved in a couple different directions, but I'm just reminded that back when Nita first announced that she was leaving Alice Cooper and joining Demi's band for a tour, there were people on these boards wondering why the heck she would want to do such a thing.  The impression I got was that some thought she was somehow "lowering" herself to doing a pop tour when there's so much more cred to being Alice's touring guitarist.  I just said that she probably wanted a change, wanted to try something different and probably lower-stress and maybe even more fun.  That's what working musicians do.  They work, and they try different things to keep things interesting.

I'm not surprised at all by her remarks.  I never thought of it as "gatekeeping" but that's just a use of the word I hadn't encountered yet.