Gatekeeping in rock and metal?

[KevShmev]

I saw this the other day and meant to post about it then...

https://guitar.com/news/music-news/nita-strauss-gatekeeping-pop-rock/

Thoughts on Nita's take?

I think she is probably way more right than she is wrong, and there are many examples.

[HOF]

I saw this the other day and meant to post about it then...

https://guitar.com/news/music-news/nita-strauss-gatekeeping-pop-rock/

Thoughts on Nita's take?

I think she is probably way more right than she is wrong, and there are many examples.

I wouldn’t doubt this at all. Rock and metal fans are mostly 40+ year old guys who are set in their ways and want you to get off their lawn while they remember how things were “back in my day.” The younger (maybe largely female?) crowd is probably a good bit different in terms of their enthusiasm for whatever an artist is doing. I know my teenager just adores whatever Taylor Swift does no matter what.

[lonestar]

I have no perspective on the pop crowd as I've never been to a show nor hang out in those circles, but as to rock/metal, I notice that the bigger or older a band is, the more obvious the gatekeeping. There's an invisible line that Fandom cross where they go from "come be a fan of this hella obscure but amazing band" to "whoa... Tix are selling out too quick, and getting expensive, who the fuck are all these plebes messing up my intimate relationship with my favorite band?"


Just my completely baseless thoughts

[Stadler]

Fascinating (to me) that the article referencing "gatekeeping" also references Metallica.  See the Lars discussion! 

This is not new, though I think it's getting worse in the rock/metal realm.  I remember being into Maiden in high school and a guy I was in a band with was a HUGE REM fan.  Saw them in a small club in New Haven on the first (or second, or both) tours... I had another friend who was a big Police fan, maybe not from Outlandos D'Amour, but certainly from Zenyatta Mondatta (that is, before the stadium shows from Synchronicity) and BOTH of them were massively put out when their bands exploded.   There was a really possessive angle to their fandom.

That's extended to rock and metal; guys like Eddie Trunk don't help matters, making it out as if they are crusaders or banner holders for "their" music, and putting down any music that doesn't embrace rock (his diatribes about the Grammy's and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame come to mind; notice it's not the rappers or pop stars bitching about who gets in, but only the so-called "real" rock fans?)

I think this is yet another sign or symbol of what I've been saying across the entire forum:  we're so invested in ourselves, and so desperately need affirmation and validation that even our music is a badge many of us wear.   And having said that, I think the Demi/Taylor phenomenon is less about being open, than it is about being obsessive about that artist.  I think it's less about "oh, I like whatever style" than it is "Demi could shit on a white canvas and we'll call it art, because we're FANS!"

[TAC]

I don't know if I have the time of the energy to exactly flesh this out completely, but in general, I think men are stubborn, and pop fans, who are mostly women, are more adaptable. Men form an identity, and are more protective of it, and women (on things not related to their children), are way more tolerant of changes and tend to look at the big picture.

[soupytwist]

Pop is a very subjective term, is it a style and sound of music or just an abbreviation of what is 'popular'.  If it's the latter then wouldn't that make Pink Floyd, Metallica and Maiden Pop?   If it's the former then that covers anyone from The Beatles, ABBA, Duran Duran, Britpop and Bieber.   I just find there is simply to much of a blurring of lines to even bother overthinking it - just enjoy what you enjoy I guess and mock anything you don't 

[Duetsch Dream Dates]

It seems like when I go to a box store/super market, they still play pop songs or more appropriately the charting songs from the 80s and 90s.

I barely ever hear even pop songs from the oughts, let alone K-pop, Taylor Swift, or Ed Sheeran.  I just always find that odd, and am curious if other folks have the same experience in their region.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

I barely ever hear even pop songs from the oughts, let alone K-pop, Taylor Swift, or Ed Sheeran.  I just always find that odd, and am curious if other folks have the same experience in their region.

I don't think K-pop has really attained "grocery store music" status yet here, but I definitely hear Swift, Sheeran, and similar artists all over the place. 

[The Letter M]

I think part of it is that pop music is just as much focused on the pop star(s) as it is their music/lyrics, so most fans are willing to accept when the person is changing because they're growing with them.

When a rock/metal band changes, fans react to the sound and music way more than the musicians or their image. A lot of rock/metal attracts musicians, so there's a bigger feeling of betrayal when a band's sound evolves because it's not what the fans are used to, especially for these longer-lasting legacy bands who are still pumping out new music. Rock and metal bands are also victim to fans disliking when members change, but for solo pop artists, there's no "band member change" that really affects the sound. The music can sound different but as long as it's the same pop vocalist singing the song, fans will line up.

This is all coming from someone who doesn't have a toe in the ocean of pop but I have friends who do and there is a sense that they're less likely to be taken aback by changes in their favorite pop artists than a rocker is when a band changes something.

-Marc.

[pg1067]

Not familiar with this person, and there wasn't a lot of depth to the article, but I think what she said could be rephrased as:  rock/metal fans are more discerning and care more about the music than pop fans.

[Stadler]

I'm going to gently push back on both of those last two posts for a couple reasons:  one, I love pop, and yet I love Emerson Lake and Palmer and King Crimson.  I can't sight read music like Steve Lukather but I know enough about music to "discern", which is a word loaded with judgment and quantification.   I find the argument that somehow "rock fans" have some greater insight into the music to be absolutely bullshit.  I know for a FACT that there a handful of bands we love here and revere for their "accomplishment" that would give a couple teeth to have a song as big as "Wildest Dreams" by Taylor Swift, technical ability be damned (read the liner notes to the deluxe reissue of Holidays In Eden by Marillion; Hogarth damn well expected that album to be a pop/crossover hit).  Two, the assumption that somehow "rock fans" care more is questionable.  Anyone that knows a One Direction fan knows that when Zane left the group (was pushed?) "care" was too light a word. It was a scandal.  Similarly when Nick Jonas (of the Jonas Brothers, who I've seen twice live, go figure) went solo, scandal.

And plus I don't get the connection; just because one appreciates the athletic accomplishment of a technically-focused
music more than say the connectivity of a song generally, or the entire the body of work, doesn't itself explain why that fan would be less accommodating of those athletes changing members in their band, for example, or deviating from a style.  See the Metallica thread.   They didn't all of a sudden suck at their instruments (except Lars, of course) but they're taking a lot of heat these days.

Another thing that's missed is that MOST BANDS progress in some form or fashion from the complicated to the simple.  There are exceptions of course - Iron Maiden - but there are FAR MORE bands like Genesis and Rush, that hone their songwriting skills and are more rewarded by a song that connects with a broader audience than they are by a select subset cheering on arbitrary variables like "song length" and "complexity", than those that go in the opposite direction.  Artists, at their heart, are nothing without an audience for their art. They are communicators.  I think there's something to the notion that in pop, there's more of a give and take between the artist and audience, and the generosity of the audience reflects that.

[lonestar]

Not familiar with this person, and there wasn't a lot of depth to the article, but I think what she said could be rephrased as:  rock/metal fans are more discerning and care more about the music than pop fans.

She came in at #24 on my top guitarist list, just an absolute monster of a soloist and stage performer. I think Nita has a unique perspective to share on the issue from not only having toured in both genres, but also having to deal with the backlash she got from metal fans when she decided to sign oto Demi's tour. A good deal of her fans were gracious and supportive, but there was some serious ugliness too, downright embarrassing stuff, classic metal gatekeeping behavior demeaning her for selling out her metal fans blah blah. I'm sure that stained her views, especially since she had such an outstanding experience on the Demi Lovato tour

[chknptpie]

Not familiar with this person, and there wasn't a lot of depth to the article, but I think what she said could be rephrased as:  rock/metal fans are more discerning and care more about the music than pop fans.

Gate keeping doesn't equal caring more. Its making people unwelcome and uncomfortable in a community.

[bosk1]

Not familiar with this person, and there wasn't a lot of depth to the article, but I think what she said could be rephrased as:  rock/metal fans are more discerning and care more about the music than pop fans.

Really??  She's quite the icon down in your neck of the woods.  And even aside from being a rock guitar icon status:  https://www.espn.com/blog/los-angeles-rams/post/_/id/43736/the-rocker-gets-her-ring-rams-reward-nita-strauss-with-super-bowl-bling

[LithoJazzoSphere]

I have so many different thoughts on this that I'm having trouble formulating them succinctly so far.  One is that I think there may be a difference in gatekeeping in rock vs. metal.  Rock was far more mainstream for much longer, so in a way it's harder to gatekeep it.  Tons of the most popular and highest-selling and acclaimed albums were rock, so keeping people away from it is quite a challenge.

Metal is really a whole different beast.  It has peeked its head out on occasion, but has generally stayed a much more underground phenomenon.  There's a weird hypocrisy in it, where fans of it tend to feel excluded from society, and at different times complain about this and at other times revel in it and embrace it.  There's sometimes an odd sense of retribution, where fans feel like outsiders rejected by culture, and then return the favor in a vindictive way.  It can be such an odd duality in that they tend to think of themselves as inclusive in some ways, and yet in others can be extremely toxic. 

[King Postwhore]

I think that may be true for metal fans because it's a certain niche.  As an example Opeth not growling anymore caused a still.  But, I think that happens in all music.  We just don' know the other genre's well.  You're not gansta enough to rap gansta music.  You have to have street cred.  Young country stars who didn't wear hats back in the day caused a stir.  Now it's accepted.  There are examples out there.

[Skeever]

I'm a bit conflicted on this one.

Sure, pop is less "gatekeepy", primarily because "pop" isn't a genre. It's just whatever is being sold to the mass market. The only "critic" that matters is the market.

Around 10 years ago, I started noticing more and more "pop" creep onto the websites stages that had previously been indie-rock and alt-rock territory. Jay Z at Glastonbury, and so on. At the time, prevailing sentiment was, anyone who disliked the pop was just kind of a snob who needed to not think so highly of themselves and their own tastes and just enjoy what regular people enjoy from time to time.

The pendulum has now swung to the other side. All of the indie/alt rock sites are dominated by pop discourse, and all the festivals are mostly pop. The music "snobs" are far outnumbered in the public sphere.

So, I'm thinking, maybe a little gatekeeping would be a good thing.   

[LithoJazzoSphere]

There is certainly snobbery in many other genres as well, but I guess part of it may be the challenge that soupy mentioned, that "pop" can both be used as shorthand for "popular", and also as a genre, but it's a bit more amorphous as to what it even means, so it's harder to even attempt to evaluate it as a monoculture.  I listen to lots of music that could be considered pop in some form, but delineating the culture around it is more challenging. 

[Adami]

I'm not sure getting into the minutia of what defines pop is necessarily an important part of this.

If someone says they're a Lady Gaga fan, you don't have people questioning their bona fides. If someone who doesn't look like a metal head (usually a female, but not always) says they like Pantera, they're going to get quizzed to prove it.

And more to what Nita says specifically, if Metallica plays with Lady Gaga (which they did) plenty of Metallica fans will be super pissed off. If Taylor Swift brings in Zakk Wylde or something to play a solo, their fans don't care much.


Edit: Seems my first example isn't really about what Nita talks about, but is more the other side of gatekeeping. My bad.

[bosk1]

While not addressing the issue directly as "gatekeeping," this conversation between Sammy Hagar and Darryl McDaniels ("DMC") is both fun and instructive on the topic.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JGVtRBdAo

(not to mention, the discussion about "My Addidas" and the jam at the end are pretty fun too)

[WilliamMunny]

I'm not sure getting into the minutia of what defines pop is necessarily an important part of this.

If someone says they're a Lady Gaga fan, you don't have people questioning their bona fides. If someone who doesn't look like a metal head (usually a female, but not always) says they like Pantera, they're going to get quizzed to prove it.

And more to what Nita says specifically, if Metallica plays with Lady Gaga (which they did) plenty of Metallica fans will be super pissed off. If Taylor Swift brings in Zakk Wylde or something to play a solo, their fans don't care much.


Edit: Seems my first example isn't really about what Nita talks about, but is more the other side of gatekeeping. My bad.

THIS post sums up my thoughts to a T—well said, my friend

[soupytwist]

Fans of recent modern pop acts tend to argue a lot with fans of 'rival' acts which often comes down to listing successes like who sells the most records, has the most number ones etc.  There appears to be a lot more obsessing (Stan) over one act in the pop fandom.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

They also care a lot more about industry awards like Grammies and such. 

[KevShmev]

That is very true, but I think there is a strong correlation between things like awards show and your favorites being one that does well at them.  If Dream Theater had been getting nominated often since the 90s in the hard rock/metal category at the Grammys, with winning a few here and there, and then all of a sudden stopped getting nominated at all, a good number of their fans would care and would express their aggravation with it. I have no doubt about that at all.  But, since they never even got nominated until late in their career, and finally won one recently, it is viewed as "it's cool to see them get some recognition."  Even Dream Theater the band now refers to themselves as a Grammy winner on their social media platforms (the last time I looked), so things like that do hold a lot of prestige, regardless of how irrelevant they may seem in the grand scheme. 

[Duetsch Dream Dates]

I don't think K-pop has really attained "grocery store music" status yet here, but I definitely hear Swift, Sheeran, and similar artists all over the place.

Man, i gotta shop at some hipper stores

[Ben_Jamin]

Pop music is based on common chord progressions in a common key. There's pop music that strays and experiments a bit with these progressions, but most all of the popular songs everyone knows shares these commonalties. These common progressions create a certain mood that a lot of people enjoy. Basically, pop music is also simple music. It's why most musicians consider it a lower form of music because it doesn't stray or venture from the simplicity, it doesn't explore or venture into what music is capable of, it's just those simple chords.

Gatekeeping within music is sort of funny to me. This is due to my perception of music being music. You can create so much with those 12 notes, and also you can be simple with it if you want. I love me some Metal, some fun Pop, some sad melancholy progressive rock, upbeat jazz, country, disco, and reggae, feeling the bass drop in EDM/Electronic, the luscious soundscapes of atmospheric music, and just about any form of music really.

One form of Gatekeeping in the Metal world is shown in the movie "Stoned Age", when Joe plays "Don't Fear The Reaper" while Hubbs replies, "Every band puts out at least one pussy song so they can find out who the faggots are!"

[KevShmev]

Pop music is based on common chord progressions in a common key. There's pop music that strays and experiments a bit with these progressions, but most all of the popular songs everyone knows shares these commonalties. These common progressions create a certain mood that a lot of people enjoy. Basically, pop music is also simple music. It's why most musicians consider it a lower form of music because it doesn't stray or venture from the simplicity, it doesn't explore or venture into what music is capable of, it's just those simple chords.

Gatekeeping within music is sort of funny to me. This is due to my perception of music being music. You can create so much with those 12 notes, and also you can be simple with it if you want. I love me some Metal, some fun Pop, some sad melancholy progressive rock, upbeat jazz, country, disco, and reggae, feeling the bass drop in EDM/Electronic, the luscious soundscapes of atmospheric music, and just about any form of music really.

One form of Gatekeeping in the Metal world is shown in the movie "Stoned Age", when Joe plays "Don't Fear The Reaper" while Hubbs replies, "Every band puts out at least one pussy song so they can find out who the faggots are!"

See, that is the outdated mentality of too many rockers. "Oh no, it's a song girls will like!  It must be for pussies!!"

[Ben_Jamin]

We just don' know the other genre's well. You're not gansta enough to rap gansta music.  You have to have street cred. 

You're correct at the bolded.

Gansta Rap is Hip-Hop music about the street life. It's about the struggles, the actuality of what goes on in the streets. To have "street cred" means you have to have grown up/been raised in the streets, you need to have the experience of living that lifestyle/culture. Not having "street cred" means you did not grow up in "the hood/streets", being raised in a "white" suburb is not living in "the hood/the ghetto/the streets". So, you can't really make Gangsta Rap without having the experience of living in "the hood/ghetto/streets" because Gangsta Rap is about the lifestyle/experiences/perspective of living in "the hood/ghetto/streets".

And this goes the same for Country music.

  Young country stars who didn't wear hats back in the day caused a stir.  Now it's accepted.  There are examples out there.

And now we finally have the blend I've been waiting for...Country Rap.

[Ben_Jamin]

Pop music is based on common chord progressions in a common key. There's pop music that strays and experiments a bit with these progressions, but most all of the popular songs everyone knows shares these commonalties. These common progressions create a certain mood that a lot of people enjoy. Basically, pop music is also simple music. It's why most musicians consider it a lower form of music because it doesn't stray or venture from the simplicity, it doesn't explore or venture into what music is capable of, it's just those simple chords.

Gatekeeping within music is sort of funny to me. This is due to my perception of music being music. You can create so much with those 12 notes, and also you can be simple with it if you want. I love me some Metal, some fun Pop, some sad melancholy progressive rock, upbeat jazz, country, disco, and reggae, feeling the bass drop in EDM/Electronic, the luscious soundscapes of atmospheric music, and just about any form of music really.

One form of Gatekeeping in the Metal world is shown in the movie "Stoned Age", when Joe plays "Don't Fear The Reaper" while Hubbs replies, "Every band puts out at least one pussy song so they can find out who the faggots are!"

See, that is the outdated mentality of too many rockers. "Oh no, it's a song girls will like!  It must be for pussies!!"

"It's a ballad...EWWW!!!!" is more the phrase...


But as I ponder more about it...That reaction and the rise of Thrash Metal, was because of the over-saturation of the Power Ballad by the Glam/Hair metal bands. This entire discussion is very fascinating.

[King Postwhore]

Yeah. Just like fashion, every decade it changes. The new fad comes. Out of each fad, some bands have longevity and change over time being influenced by the time.

[Ben_Jamin]

Yeah. Just like fashion, every decade it changes. The new fad comes. Out of each fad, some bands have longevity and change over time being influenced by the time.

And some rise again, but a bit evolved. Such as the sudden rise of Modern Nu-Metal. Which was just basically Rap style vocals over distorted guitar riffs, focusing more on the groove's and rhythm's found in Hip-Hop/Rap.

[King Postwhore]

Yup yup!

[deggs37]

And more to what Nita says specifically, if Metallica plays with Lady Gaga (which they did) plenty of Metallica fans will be super pissed off. If Taylor Swift brings in Zakk Wylde or something to play a solo, their fans don't care much.

I think really it's because the type of people who get into Metal or Prog are considered outcasts of some sort. These usually aren't the popular kids and probably the kids who got bullied by said popular kids. So, they (we) find an outlet and safety in music and really connect with it on a seriously intense level. It becomes the center of their lives and gets them through those tough times feeling like an outcast.

So when they see Lady Gaga is singing with Metallica, it's like Metallica is trying to appeal to those same kids that bullied you or made you feel left out or different. And if those kids now like Metallica then it's no longer "yours" or just for you to escape. Now it reminds you of those "normal people" that you are trying to forget about.

I think that's why we gatekeep so hard. We feel accepted and part of the group with our fellow metal or progheads. And we don't want the people that make us feel different or weird to be in our club.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

The irony being that Metallica has been closer to being part of the popular kids club for decades now, and Lady Gaga markets herself and her fans as outcasts.  But I think there's definitely some truth to the psychology of the general idea. 

[ariich]

I think part of it is that pop music is just as much focused on the pop star(s) as it is their music/lyrics, so most fans are willing to accept when the person is changing because they're growing with them.

Yeah, this absolutely, but only as a general trend. I don't think it's a simplistic genre split as Strauss suggests. You absolutely get gatekeeping in rock and metal, but also just as much in other genres, including styles that can only really be described as pop.

It's more that some artists - more likely to be pop artists - attract fans because of their personality, style, whatever it might be - but people are fans of the artist themselves more so than the music. While that's more common in pop, it happens in rock and metal too, Devin Townsend being a good example.