Rolling Stone: Top 100 "Heavy Metal" Songs *rolls eyes*

[lonestar]

There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there?  Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"?  Scorpions for a while, maybe.

I really don't know. I've just always kind of assumed that popularity in music is at least somewhat global. I know that isn't actually the case, though. Like I said, Van Halen seemed to be largely an American thing, too. It just surprises me sometimes. That said, Ratt wasn't honestly as popular here as MTV would've had us believe. Their one attempt at playing arenas didn't go over well.

They certainly didn't have the popularity of Def Leppard, Scorpions or Crue, that's for sure. Crue didn't even scratch the list, did they?




EDIT- just checked, Shout at the Devil is there... also noticed You Can't Bring Me Down by Suicidal Tendancies made the list....definitely punk as opposed to metal, but a great fucking tune anyways.

[Mosh]

The fact that we’re about two pages into a RATT discussion tells me that Rolling Stone made the right call with the high placement.

[lonestar]

But it's two pages of how they don't deserve to be there...

[Dublagent66]

At least DT made the list lol

Yeah, on one hand I'm glad they made the list, but on the other hand disappointed they're at the ass end of it.  This is why we can't have nice things.  PMU deserved way better than #91.

I think Ratt is becoming underrated.  DeMartini was easily one of the best guitarists of the era. 

No they're not. Ratt always sucked.

Warren Demartini might have been good, but Ratt, despite having a couple catchy songs, absolutely sucked, which impacts Demartini's reputation.  I'm amazed that the two post-Invasion albums went platinum.

I'm wondering if you've even heard their entire catalogue.  I'll agree that they sucked live because of partying too hard on tour, but they have way more than just a "couple catchy songs". 
That is just grossly understated.

[twosuitsluke]

There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there?  Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"?  Scorpions for a while, maybe.

I really don't know. I've just always kind of assumed that popularity in music is at least somewhat global. I know that isn't actually the case, though. Like I said, Van Halen seemed to be largely an American thing, too. It just surprises me sometimes. That said, Ratt wasn't honestly as popular here as MTV would've had us believe. Their one attempt at playing arenas didn't go over well.

They certainly didn't have the popularity of Def Leppard, Scorpions or Crue, that's for sure. Crue didn't even scratch the list, did they?




EDIT- just checked, Shout at the Devil is there... also noticed You Can't Bring Me Down by Suicidal Tendancies made the list....definitely punk as opposed to metal, but a great fucking tune anyways.

I certainly wouldn't call Suicidal Tendencies straight up punk, especially You Can't  Bring Me Down. The intro sounds like Cemetary Gates, then they come in with metal riffs for God's sake. They're definitely more funk metal or something.

You can argue that some of their songs are more punk as they were crossover thrash/hardcore to begin with. This song is pretty metal though.

[lonestar]

Alot of what you said can be blanketly applied to all punk, both genres have similar roots and nuances for sure.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

That song wouldn't really be out of place on something like Master of Puppets if Hetfield sang it.  It's definitely on the more metal end of the crossover thrash scene. 

[Stadler]

Alot of what you said can be blanketly applied to all punk, both genres have similar roots and nuances for sure.

Agreed; if you ignore all the nonsense around them, and to some degree the affectations of Johnny Lydon, the Sex Pistols one main record is a pretty decent hard rock record, in the vein of Motley True and some of the less-sludge-y Twisted Sister. 

[Stadler]

When it came to MTV, Ratt got played a ton.  Even Way Cool Jr. in the late 80s was played to death, as were the three hits from Dancing Undercover.  These all came after Round and Round, Back for More, Wanted Man, etc. 

The two Twisted Sister videos from '84 got played a ton, but outside of Leader of the Pack a few years later getting played a bit, they were barely a blip on the MTV radar for the second half of the 80s.

I wasn't clear; I meant LIVE.  I could've seen Twisted 15 times if I wanted.  I'm struggling to remember ANY of the Ratt tours that came through Connecticut.  You are spot on in terms of MTV, though. 

By the way, I'm with PG.  I do think Ratt is way overrated.  They're interchangeable with White Lion for me; great guitar player, and agonizing lead singer.

I think if I was in a band and I had to choose between Steven Pearcy, Vince Neil or Mike Tramp, I'd make an instrumental record.

[HOF]

When it came to MTV, Ratt got played a ton.  Even Way Cool Jr. in the late 80s was played to death, as were the three hits from Dancing Undercover.  These all came after Round and Round, Back for More, Wanted Man, etc. 

The two Twisted Sister videos from '84 got played a ton, but outside of Leader of the Pack a few years later getting played a bit, they were barely a blip on the MTV radar for the second half of the 80s.

I wasn't clear; I meant LIVE.  I could've seen Twisted 15 times if I wanted.  I'm struggling to remember ANY of the Ratt tours that came through Connecticut.  You are spot on in terms of MTV, though. 

By the way, I'm with PG.  I do think Ratt is way overrated.  They're interchangeable with White Lion for me; great guitar player, and agonizing lead singer.

I think if I was in a band and I had to choose between Steven Pearcy, Vince Neil or Mike Tramp, I'd make an instrumental record.

Heh, I'll take Tramp and White Lion over the other two bands any day. He was at least a decent songwriter. And Bratta was also the best of those guitarists.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping

Yeah like wut? Cmon Puppies.

You can call it gatekeeping or me being a metal elitist, but I don't consider those bands metal. Yes, they have some similarities to metal in some of the stuff they do, but to me, they aren't metal. At the same time, as I said above, I really like a lot of those bands. I mean, Deftones is a top 50 band for me, maybe even top 25.

Perhaps my post came off as sounding a little elitist, which was not my intention. I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...

At any rate, this is all subjective anyway. And at the end of the day, I know I have very strong opinions of what band belongs in what genre of music. I'm aware some people won't agree with me and that's fine. I don't think any less of any of you if you consider the bands I mentioned as metal.

[jammindude]

This just gets back to my old argument about how definitions change over time.

I remember walking into a record store in 1980 and that record store had a fairly large “heavy metal“ section. It was not a single shelf with just Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. A lot of things that we would now consider to be “hard rock“ were in fact considered heavy metal 45 years ago. The goal posts just moved a bit.

[TAC]

Yeah, and at one point I was considered cool.

[jammindude]

Yeah, and at one point I was considered cool.

[Butthead voice] huh uh huh… You’re old. [/Butthead voice]

[TAC]

Yup. Definitions sure change.

[Zantera]

This just gets back to my old argument about how definitions change over time.

I remember walking into a record store in 1980 and that record store had a fairly large “heavy metal“ section. It was not a single shelf with just Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. A lot of things that we would now consider to be “hard rock“ were in fact considered heavy metal 45 years ago. The goal posts just moved a bit.

Not just this but I also feel like if a quick search of a band comes back with them being a metal band (or it being listed as one of their genres) then that's sort of a universally accepted thing and if you strongly disagree then maybe its your own weird preferences that are not accurate rather than what everyone else is saying.

[twosuitsluke]

This just gets back to my old argument about how definitions change over time.

I remember walking into a record store in 1980 and that record store had a fairly large “heavy metal“ section. It was not a single shelf with just Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. A lot of things that we would now consider to be “hard rock“ were in fact considered heavy metal 45 years ago. The goal posts just moved a bit.

Yea that's a pretty good point to be fair.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...

I doubt anyone loves the list, but honestly it covers more ground than many I've seen.  I don't know how many "best metal" lists I've read that seem to think no metal was made after The Black Album and maybe something from Pantera.  At least this one attempts to include some later developments, even if it's only mildly successful at it. 

And you must have skimmed the list if you think Venom is the only thing black metal or adjacent on it.  It has Mayhem, Emperor, Bathory, and Celtic Frost.  Better than expected for such a generic and mainstream publication, I'd say. 

[twosuitsluke]

Yea there's some real obvious choices but also plenty that I was pleasantly surprised to see. Overall a pretty good list. I've got it saved on Spotify to play through one day.

Also just noticed You Suffer is on the list 

[LithoJazzoSphere]

I think that one's on there for the same reason that I imagine "4'33" would be on a more general "important music" list, it represents an idea more than actually being a real song. 

[Mosh]

+ I've found You Suffer to be a weirdly more effective explanation for what grindcore music is than a regular grindcore song. 

[KevShmev]

There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there?  Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"?  Scorpions for a while, maybe.

I really don't know. I've just always kind of assumed that popularity in music is at least somewhat global. I know that isn't actually the case, though. Like I said, Van Halen seemed to be largely an American thing, too. It just surprises me sometimes. That said, Ratt wasn't honestly as popular here as MTV would've had us believe. Their one attempt at playing arenas didn't go over well.

Along the same lines, Stryper was the same way.  For as much as MTV played their five videos from 1986-1988, you would have thought they were huge, but Honestly was the only one that broke the top 40 here in the States.  Hell, I remember Free was number 1 on most requested videos every day for like a month.

[twosuitsluke]

Just listening through this list, and as much as it's great to see some death metal representation, I'm struck by the fact there's no Death songs. I know we can sit here and say this song or that song should be on here, but come on... it's Death!

[Elite]

Death is not on the list?

[twosuitsluke]

Death is not on the list?

No, but it's OK, Girlschool and Evanescence are.

A few other bands I'm kinda shocked aren't on here. In Flames and Carcass.

[wolfking]

Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping

Yeah like wut? Cmon Puppies.

You can call it gatekeeping or me being a metal elitist, but I don't consider those bands metal. Yes, they have some similarities to metal in some of the stuff they do, but to me, they aren't metal. At the same time, as I said above, I really like a lot of those bands. I mean, Deftones is a top 50 band for me, maybe even top 25.

Perhaps my post came off as sounding a little elitist, which was not my intention. I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...

At any rate, this is all subjective anyway. And at the end of the day, I know I have very strong opinions of what band belongs in what genre of music. I'm aware some people won't agree with me and that's fine. I don't think any less of any of you if you consider the bands I mentioned as metal.

Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?

[TAC]

Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping

Yeah like wut? Cmon Puppies.

You can call it gatekeeping or me being a metal elitist, but I don't consider those bands metal. Yes, they have some similarities to metal in some of the stuff they do, but to me, they aren't metal. At the same time, as I said above, I really like a lot of those bands. I mean, Deftones is a top 50 band for me, maybe even top 25.

Perhaps my post came off as sounding a little elitist, which was not my intention. I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...

At any rate, this is all subjective anyway. And at the end of the day, I know I have very strong opinions of what band belongs in what genre of music. I'm aware some people won't agree with me and that's fine. I don't think any less of any of you if you consider the bands I mentioned as metal.

Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?

Not Metal.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Death is not on the list?

No, but it's OK, Girlschool and Evanescence are.

A few other bands I'm kinda shocked aren't on here. In Flames and Carcass.

Yeah, I'm sure if I thought about it too hard there'd be more glaring omissions.  Death is certainly one, there's not really a good argument for Obituary being on there instead of them. 

I think there is definitely a different and somewhat unstated criteria they're trying to hit for the list, which explains a number of the entries. 

I guess they figured At The Gates, Arch Enemy, Bolt Thrower, and even Opeth to an extent covered enough melodeath bases. 

Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?

I'm wondering if Puppies is going by the Metal-Archives criteria for metal, in which case they'd probably just be considered super-heavy rock. 

[jammindude]

The definition is “nu metal” but it’s still technically under the metal umbrella. Anyone who says otherwise is just in denial

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Early Deftones is certainly nu-metal, but their later stuff is more just general alt metal, with a variety of other influences. 

[wolfking]

Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?

I'm wondering if Puppies is going by the Metal-Archives criteria for metal, in which case they'd probably just be considered super-heavy rock.

They are less super heavy rock than metal.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?

I'm wondering if Puppies is going by the Metal-Archives criteria for metal, in which case they'd probably just be considered super-heavy rock.

They are less super heavy rock than metal.

To be clear, I couldn't care less what Metal Archives criteria is for metal. Those guys are definite gatekeepers. There are a lot of bands that I consider metal that are banned from that site. Between the Buried and Me being a big one. But that's a topic for a different discussion.

To answer your original question Wolfking, which I completely missed earlier.......I consider Deftones to be alternative rock with prog and post-rock influences. And Korn falls into the hard rock category for me. To be honest I'm not a big Korn fan at all, so I haven't heard most of their stuff (what I have heard I didn't like), so I could be way off base here.

[wolfking]

Yeah, I think you need to check out more old school Korn if you think they are hard rock.

[TAC]

No one needs to check out Korn.

[hefdaddy42]

Just caught up on this thread.

I can't believe that much digital ink was wasted on fucking Ratt, of all bands.