Author Topic: 2023 NFL Thread v Super Bowl matchup: Chiefs vs. 49ers  (Read 58418 times)

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Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #875 on: October 11, 2023, 10:18:07 AM »
Oh, it must suck having a 5-0 team.

You can that Nick out of the East Coast, but you can't take the East Coast out of Nick. :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #876 on: October 11, 2023, 03:04:21 PM »
El Barto,  this is a local radio sports on TV. One of the writers who follow the Patriots said something I thought interesting and I believe it to be true.

There is definitely disfunction here on the offensive. What do you think?

https://youtu.be/EPIj83omEhE?si=a1z-T56htYGbRGNx
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #877 on: October 11, 2023, 03:15:03 PM »
El Barto,  this is a local radio sports on TV. One of the writers who follow the Patriots said something I thought interesting and I believe it to be true.

There is definitely disfunction here on the offensive. What do you think?

https://youtu.be/EPIj83omEhE?si=a1z-T56htYGbRGNx


What he said is obvious, but the Paul Perillo segment is the most useless segment going. The guy says absolutely nothing. I can't believe he even said something this critical. It caught my attention as well when I heard it. Here's a guy that says NOTHING every week, and even he's calling it out.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #878 on: October 11, 2023, 03:31:13 PM »
Useless?  Tim, wtf. Seems to me you love the garden takes by Felger & Maz who are not in the locker room while Perillo is there and trying to be delicate in pointing out what he sees.  You hate delicate. What he says has weight. Sorry he didn't have napkins on his feet and was over the top in his observation. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #879 on: October 11, 2023, 03:34:35 PM »
Useless?  Tim, wtf. Seems to me you love the garden takes by Felger & Maz who are not in the locker room while Perillo is there and trying to be delicate in pointing out what he sees.  You hate delicate. What he says has weight. Sorry he didn't have napkins on his feet and was over the top in his observation.

The Perillo segment is useless. Every week. The guy says absolutely nothing. Every week. What you posted was the first interesting and unique thing he's said in years.  Not that's it's not obvious to everyone following the Pats. The guy has ZERO inside info, and if he does, he's NEVER shared any of it. He seems like a nice guy and all, but I have no idea what purpose he serves.

would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #880 on: October 11, 2023, 03:36:56 PM »
I get it Tim. You don't like nuance. You like Sucks and Blows but what he said seems poignant. Need to Google that word?
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #881 on: October 11, 2023, 03:44:19 PM »
El Barto,  this is a local radio sports on TV. One of the writers who follow the Patriots said something I thought interesting and I believe it to be true.

There is definitely disfunction here on the offensive. What do you think?

https://youtu.be/EPIj83omEhE?si=a1z-T56htYGbRGNx
So that was Paul Perillo, eh? Never seen the guy, but I've read a ton of his stuff.

His take right there was kind of ambiguous. "I don't feel we're getting the best play out of the quarterback, even under the circumstances we have" almost sounds like a vote of confidence in McCorkle's abilities. If Bill thinks he can play better, even under these circumstances, then it's fair to give him the opportunity. And MJ needs to understand that having everything fall your way in the NFL is rare. There will always be setbacks, and sometimes your O-line is going to be hampered due to injuries. Great players, hell, even good players find ways to step up when things are going wrong. This does not appear to be Mac's strong suit, but perhaps Bill thinks he has it in him.

Something I haven't seen brought up is how Kraft feels about Mac Jones. The only thing anybody ever wants to blather on about is how Kraft is "this close" to getting rid of Bill. As I understand it Mac was always BK's boy. If Bill wanted to drive him out to the woods and leave him would that be alright with ownership?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #882 on: October 11, 2023, 03:47:18 PM »
I get it Tim. You don't like nuance. You like Sucks and Blows but what he said seems poignant. Need to Google that word?
A month ago I would have agreed with you. Tim has been all about sucking and blowing for a while now. Over the last 3 weeks I think he's been pretty reasonable, though. Some things I agree with and some things I don't, but it seems that now that NE actually does suck and blow he's making a lot more sense.

And to be honest, as someone who's seen 33 years of Jerry Jones, I think you're both being kind of naive about coaching, managing, and owning.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #883 on: October 11, 2023, 03:47:47 PM »
I personally think Kraft wants playoffs at least and Bill has fallen way short. Kraft wants him to break the all time wins record in NE but he's running short with the dissension. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #884 on: October 11, 2023, 03:50:15 PM »
I get it Tim. You don't like nuance. You like Sucks and Blows but what he said seems poignant. Need to Google that word?
A month ago I would have agreed with you. Tim has been all about sucking and blowing for a while now. Over the last 3 weeks I think he's been pretty reasonable, though. Some things I agree with and some things I don't, but it seems that now that NE actually does suck and blow he's making a lot more sense.

And to be honest, as someone who's seen 33 years of Jerry Jones, I think you're both being kind of naive about coaching, managing, and owning.

El Barto, when a written has an in with the team, he has to walk on egg shells explaining what he sees not to loose that access.

Those outside like Felger and Mazz, who Tim agrees with isn't in the locker room so they can take liberties.

That my point. It's football politics 101.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #885 on: October 11, 2023, 08:39:13 PM »
El Barto,  this is a local radio sports on TV. One of the writers who follow the Patriots said something I thought interesting and I believe it to be true.

There is definitely disfunction here on the offensive. What do you think?

https://youtu.be/EPIj83omEhE?si=a1z-T56htYGbRGNx
So that was Paul Perillo, eh? Never seen the guy, but I've read a ton of his stuff.

His take right there was kind of ambiguous. "I don't feel we're getting the best play out of the quarterback, even under the circumstances we have" almost sounds like a vote of confidence in McCorkle's abilities. If Bill thinks he can play better, even under these circumstances, then it's fair to give him the opportunity. And MJ needs to understand that having everything fall your way in the NFL is rare. There will always be setbacks, and sometimes your O-line is going to be hampered due to injuries. Great players, hell, even good players find ways to step up when things are going wrong. This does not appear to be Mac's strong suit, but perhaps Bill thinks he has it in him.

Something I haven't seen brought up is how Kraft feels about Mac Jones. The only thing anybody ever wants to blather on about is how Kraft is "this close" to getting rid of Bill. As I understand it Mac was always BK's boy. If Bill wanted to drive him out to the woods and leave him would that be alright with ownership?


Perillo writes for Patriots Weekly or something like that. It's a Patriots sanctioned rag. I think his weekly appearance on Felger & Mazz is a contractual thing because they carry the Pats games. He comes on every week and says absolutely nothing. Seems like a hell of a nice guy though.


Kraft loves himself some Mac Jones. He's always sang his praises.


So a couple of things have happened over the last couple of days. First, Mac gets his side of the story out with FoxSports. Then today, Jeff Howe's article is clearly Kraft getting his message out. At some point here, Shefter or someone like that will have a Belichick slanted report. 

Kraft has been pretty vocal at the last couple of owner's meetings about his expectations, but I think the Howe article is something that Kraft will not be able to walk back from after the season.





And to be honest, as someone who's seen 33 years of Jerry Jones, I think you're both being kind of naive about coaching, managing, and owning.

Well, I'd love to hear more on this. I'm going to bed  ;D so I'll check back in the morning.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #886 on: October 12, 2023, 05:27:46 AM »
I'm not naive at all. Kraft wants to fire Bill but Bill has a legacy. Bill isn't helping his cause since Brady left. That is a fact.

He is the highest paid coach/GM out there. He's not living up to reputation. Kraft bet on the wrong horse in the race.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #887 on: October 12, 2023, 06:39:59 AM »

And to be honest, as someone who's seen 33 years of Jerry Jones, I think you're both being kind of naive about coaching, managing, and owning.

Well, I'd love to hear more on this. I'm going to bed  ;D so I'll check back in the morning.

I THINK I know where El Barto is going with this, but I'd love to hear more too. 

EDIT:  One thing I think El Barto is right on is... if not Bill, who?  I think the last thing the Pats need is a Josh McDaniel or a Kliff Kingsbury, some young hotshot that comes highly regarded, but hasn't actually won anything.  I think maybe you have a come-to-Jesus meeting, but I don't think you a) make Mac the scapegoat, and b) throw the baby out with the bathwater.   
« Last Edit: October 12, 2023, 06:52:02 AM by Stadler »

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #888 on: October 12, 2023, 08:37:37 AM »

And to be honest, as someone who's seen 33 years of Jerry Jones, I think you're both being kind of naive about coaching, managing, and owning.

Well, I'd love to hear more on this. I'm going to bed  ;D so I'll check back in the morning.

I THINK I know where El Barto is going with this, but I'd love to hear more too. 

EDIT:  One thing I think El Barto is right on is... if not Bill, who?  I think the last thing the Pats need is a Josh McDaniel or a Kliff Kingsbury, some young hotshot that comes highly regarded, but hasn't actually won anything.  I think maybe you have a come-to-Jesus meeting, but I don't think you a) make Mac the scapegoat, and b) throw the baby out with the bathwater.
That's kind of the upshot of it. What Cowboys fans have learned is that you need a good relationship between the coach and the owners, and you need a strong culture within the organization. That's not built overnight. The bigger thing we've learned is that people tend to focus on the negatives and assume it's easy to find somebody better. In some ways Jerry is a terrible owner/GM. In other ways he's among the best you could hope for. He's dedicated to winning. He'll spend as much money as necessary. He's consistently managed to build good teams (their perpetual suckiness has never been for a lack of talent). We've been hearing how awful Jerry is for decades now, but nobody ever considers his better qualities, and more importantly,  who to replace him with because the answer would almost certainly be a massive downgrade.

This goes for NE, as well. No team has managed the cap better than NE with Bill as GM. While he does have major issues drafting on the offensive side of the ball, he typically manages the draft very well. While people are criticizing him for being unable/unwilling to change as a coach, he is nevertheless still the best HC in the game. Not to mention that his alleged unwillingness to change isn't all that it seems. He's still doing what other teams do before they know to do it--look at the popularity of so-called positionless players right now. Ask all 32 coaches who the greatest in the league is, even this year, and I'd put the O/U on it being Belichick at 31 (I doubt Bill would vote for himself). If you don't want Bill as HC/GM, who do you want, and what makes you think it'll be an improvement? And in TAC's case, who do you want as an owner? Kraft is committed to winning, he loves his team, and he'll spend as much money as called for. Very few franchises can claim that. Jerry and Kraft are both going to die soon enough, and the people bitching about them are going to miss them dearly once it happens.

There's another fascinating angle to this. The people clamouring for Bill to be fired are essentially creating a Bill or Mac paradigm. That's the way RK will treat this. The CW is that the two cannot coexist, which might be the case, but I doubt that dumping them both is on the table. Firing Bill, replacing him with Jarod Mayo, and keeping Mac Jones is NOT the answer (though Mayo might very well be an excellent HC).

As for what to do about it, come to Jesus is probably the right approach, with some conditions. I didn't read/watch it, but I saw an article/video last night with the headline "would Bill fire himself?" I think that's a fascinating thing to ponder. He might. While he's stubborn, buy all accounts he's not blind to his own mistakes. Everything I've heard over the last 20 years is that he does recognize his shortcomings. With that in mind, forcing an offensive minded assistant on him for GM purposes probably isn't a bad idea, and I'm not sure he'd reject that approach. Personally, I'm not sure it's the right way to go, I kind of like how Bill sees things right now, even if it hasn't worked out, but being able to draft well on both sides of the ball would certainly be a bonus. Essentially they need to replace Nick Caserio. Somebody who can scout and advise with an eye towards offense.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #889 on: October 12, 2023, 09:19:01 AM »
Me personally, it's the GM side that's the issue.  He can still coach at a high level. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #890 on: October 12, 2023, 09:29:34 AM »
Me personally, it's the GM side that's the issue.  He can still coach at a high level.
Thats still a cop out take. Does this team look well coached? Is the locker room as tight as it needs to be?




@Bart, I’ll hit that when I get home and have my laptop. No chance I do that on my phone.  :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #891 on: October 12, 2023, 09:43:34 AM »
Me personally, it's the GM side that's the issue.  He can still coach at a high level.
Thats still a cop out take. Does this team look well coached? Is the locker room as tight as it needs to be?






@Bart, I’ll hit that when I get home and have my laptop. No chance I do that on my phone.  :lol

No I agree on that Tim but it stems first from what he's done as a GM.  Now that he does not have the Band-Aid that was Brady to hide the lack of talent, it's showing.  His coaching decisions are pouring salt on the wound.  How he could put Patricia as the OC with no offensive experience with a 2nd year QB was beyond me.  That started the revolt by the offensive side. Now Mac seems damaged to me.  El Barto says the receiving core isn't that bad but they still struggle with any separation.   The O line is the big Achilles heal for the offense.  Which is all on the GM.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2023, 09:55:58 AM by King Postwhore »
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #892 on: October 12, 2023, 09:49:21 AM »
I was thinking about the come to Jesus approach this morning.  The latest hot take is that Bill "damaged" and "alienated" Mac last year.  First, if you're feeling "alienated" you're not bought into the Patriot Way, and second, you probably need to leave the binkie at home. This isn't a "safe space" in that regard.   Now, shame on Bill for not knowing what motivates his player, I'll give you that, but this is potentially - and just as likely as any other solution - one secret day-long meeting between Bill and Mac and maybe Bill O., and right the ship. 

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #893 on: October 12, 2023, 09:56:47 AM »
Who saying Alienated?  Mismanaged is what I'm saying. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #894 on: October 12, 2023, 10:11:20 AM »
Who saying Alienated?  Mismanaged is what I'm saying.

There have been a couple articles in the last day or so going down that direction. I didn't mean to imply you said that.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #895 on: October 12, 2023, 10:26:46 AM »
I was thinking about the come to Jesus approach this morning.  The latest hot take is that Bill "damaged" and "alienated" Mac last year.  First, if you're feeling "alienated" you're not bought into the Patriot Way, and second, you probably need to leave the binkie at home. This isn't a "safe space" in that regard.   Now, shame on Bill for not knowing what motivates his player, I'll give you that, but this is potentially - and just as likely as any other solution - one secret day-long meeting between Bill and Mac and maybe Bill O., and right the ship.
I don't think there's anything in NE that salvages the kid, to be honest. His strengths are gone now. No idea why, but they are. A change of scenery might allow him to get back to where he was, but it's not happening in NE. Let some other team coddle him and build their offense around him. The only person I think that could salvage him is JMD, and there's no guarantee on that.

And frankly, he should feel alienated. He has been. Seems like the only person on his side now is Kraft.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #896 on: October 12, 2023, 10:37:40 AM »
Who saying Alienated?  Mismanaged is what I'm saying.

There have been a couple articles in the last day or so going down that direction. I didn't mean to imply you said that.

Which one's, I'll read them, Bill. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #897 on: October 12, 2023, 12:53:15 PM »
Who saying Alienated?  Mismanaged is what I'm saying.

There have been a couple articles in the last day or so going down that direction. I didn't mean to imply you said that.

Which one's, I'll read them, Bill.


Here's one

Here's another one.

NBC Sports has an article too.

Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #898 on: October 12, 2023, 01:00:04 PM »
- one secret day-long meeting between Bill and Mac and maybe Bill O., and right the ship.

Supposedly they met during the summer. It was reported by someone...just last week, I believe, by someone national..I can't remember who, that a meeting ACTUALLY took place. No local beat guy has reported it as a fact.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #899 on: October 12, 2023, 02:01:34 PM »
What Cowboys fans have learned is that you need a good relationship between the coach and the owners, and you need a strong culture within the organization. That's not built overnight. The bigger thing we've learned is that people tend to focus on the negatives and assume it's easy to find somebody better. In some ways Jerry is a terrible owner/GM. In other ways he's among the best you could hope for. He's dedicated to winning. He'll spend as much money as necessary. He's consistently managed to build good teams (their perpetual suckiness has never been for a lack of talent). We've been hearing how awful Jerry is for decades now, but nobody ever considers his better qualities, and more importantly,  who to replace him with because the answer would almost certainly be a massive downgrade.

Jerry and Kraft are both going to die soon enough, and the people bitching about them are going to miss them dearly once it happens.

Let me get to these together...
I think both Kraft and Jones have to ability to see the big picture, and you're right, does Steven Jones (or whoever) or Jonathan Kraft have the vision and the acumen that their father's have? They've both built NFL empires, but they each had some advantages, with the Cowboys being "America's Team" and Kraft having Brady/Belichick winning SBs.
Robert Kraft's Pats story is certainly endearing enough. Long time season ticket holder for his family and buys the team. No idea how Jonathan is going to run the franchise.


Also, as far as the Owner/Coach relationship, yes, a franchise needs continuity. That's all true. Jason Garret seemed to come off as a stooge, but Jerry liked him and he seemed to hold on to that job for longer than he probably should've.

Kraft I sure feels indebted to Belichick, and is loyal to him. But Kraft is sensitive and the natives here are quite restless. He's hearing it, and Jeff Howe's article yesterday is proof.





This goes for NE, as well. No team has managed the cap better than NE with Bill as GM. While he does have major issues drafting on the offensive side of the ball, he typically manages the draft very well. While people are criticizing him for being unable/unwilling to change as a coach, he is nevertheless still the best HC in the game. Not to mention that his alleged unwillingness to change isn't all that it seems. He's still doing what other teams do before they know to do it--look at the popularity of so-called positionless players right now. Ask all 32 coaches who the greatest in the league is, even this year, and I'd put the O/U on it being Belichick at 31 (I doubt Bill would vote for himself). If you don't want Bill as HC/GM, who do you want, and what makes you think it'll be an improvement? And in TAC's case, who do you want as an owner? Kraft is committed to winning, he loves his team, and he'll spend as much money as called for.


I don't know about all this. The Pats are consistently at or near the bottom of the league in cash spending on their roster. It's easy to manage the cap when you don't actually pay out any salaries. Not sure if it's Belichick or Kraft that's being the stingy one. Back in the day with the Bruins, they were always cheap, and the owner Jeremy Jacobs got the heat, but Harry Sinden was the one holding the line.





There's another fascinating angle to this. The people clamouring for Bill to be fired are essentially creating a Bill or Mac paradigm. That's the way RK will treat this. The CW is that the two cannot coexist, which might be the case, but I doubt that dumping them both is on the table. Firing Bill, replacing him with Jarod Mayo, and keeping Mac Jones is NOT the answer (though Mayo might very well be an excellent HC).

As for what to do about it, come to Jesus is probably the right approach, with some conditions.

I think Mac and Bill are at odds. they're definitely not on the same page, and Kraft has taken notice. And Belichick is still shielding Kraft from blame for the team sucking. But once Kraft really feels the heat, there will be a change.

Who's a better coach that Bill? I don't think there are any, or many. I think he's the best at breaking down film and teaching the game. But Kraft can't find a coach for more than half the price to scrape 5 wins together, as Bill will likely do this year.

Personally, I'm not calling for Bill to be fired, but if I were the owner, I'd have to think about it, wouldn't I? The ending to the Belichick Era here in New England suddenly feels accelerated.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #900 on: October 12, 2023, 03:01:58 PM »
What Cowboys fans have learned is that you need a good relationship between the coach and the owners, and you need a strong culture within the organization. That's not built overnight. The bigger thing we've learned is that people tend to focus on the negatives and assume it's easy to find somebody better. In some ways Jerry is a terrible owner/GM. In other ways he's among the best you could hope for. He's dedicated to winning. He'll spend as much money as necessary. He's consistently managed to build good teams (their perpetual suckiness has never been for a lack of talent). We've been hearing how awful Jerry is for decades now, but nobody ever considers his better qualities, and more importantly,  who to replace him with because the answer would almost certainly be a massive downgrade.

Jerry and Kraft are both going to die soon enough, and the people bitching about them are going to miss them dearly once it happens.

Let me get to these together...
I think both Kraft and Jones have to ability to see the big picture, and you're right, does Steven Jones (or whoever) or Jonathan Kraft have the vision and the acumen that their father's have? They've both built NFL empires, but they each had some advantages, with the Cowboys being "America's Team" and Kraft having Brady/Belichick winning SBs.
Robert Kraft's Pats story is certainly endearing enough. Long time season ticket holder for his family and buys the team. No idea how Jonathan is going to run the franchise.


Also, as far as the Owner/Coach relationship, yes, a franchise needs continuity. That's all true. Jason Garret seemed to come off as a stooge, but Jerry liked him and he seemed to hold on to that job for longer than he probably should've.

Kraft I sure feels indebted to Belichick, and is loyal to him. But Kraft is sensitive and the natives here are quite restless. He's hearing it, and Jeff Howe's article yesterday is proof.
You're leaving out a key chapter. Jerry stained "America's Team" by coming in and unceremoniously firing one of the all time great head coaches (and Belichick idol). He got over that tarnish pretty quickly by hiring another excellent coach and winning 3 superb owls. Jerry had a HOF coach and fired him. How's the team been since then? I'm a firm believer that firing JJ cost them the one and only fourpeat in NFL history.

Quote
I don't know about all this. The Pats are consistently at or near the bottom of the league in cash spending on their roster. It's easy to manage the cap when you don't actually pay out any salaries. Not sure if it's Belichick or Kraft that's being the stingy one. Back in the day with the Bruins, they were always cheap, and the owner Jeremy Jacobs got the heat, but Harry Sinden was the one holding the line.

Well, yes, there is a direct correlation between how much you spend and your cap situation.  :lol

What I can say about this is that the modern version of team management seems to be the roller coaster model, where you build a super team for a 3 year window, spend 3 years paying the bills, and then spend 5 more trying to start the process over again. Personally I have no interest in seeing that. Being cheap had allowed them to maintain a fair amount of continuity. And it helped that half the people who left sucked and came back to succeed again. He kept the people who wanted to be there, let the ones that didn't walk, and occasionally took them back in when they saw the grass wasn't necessarily greener.

I mentioned that Brady's play wasn't the biggest loss for NE. It was his buying into the Patriot Way. I've also said the next biggest loss was having Brady as a recruiter. I don't think it's as simple as Joe keeps saying (Brady covered up their weaknesses) at all. I think having Brady around kept there from being any real weaknesses, as talent was seeking them out for either a ring or a second chance.

I'm honestly not sure how you do what Brady, Kraft, and Belichick did in the modern NFL, but I'd much rather see NE find a way to get back to that than watch them be the Rams. Or Tampa. Or Arizona. Or likely Cincinatti and Buffalo a couple of years from now. 

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Who's a better coach that Bill? I don't think there are any, or many. I think he's the best at breaking down film and teaching the game.
Those are certainly huge components, but man, there are so many more. Bill's tendency to look for even the slightest edge under every rock is unparalleled. Installing thermometers in the ramp area the Chargers walked out of? Reminding his players that Cowher gave his team the day off to buy plane tickets to the SB for their families? Creating formations that nobody had ever seen before? (The ineligible receiver plays against Baltimore might have been his finest hour.) Drilling into the D's head a pick slant that Seattle hadn't run in six weeks, presumably saving it up for a big game? It goes on and on. Bill's excellent qualities as a HC really are impressively broad.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #901 on: October 13, 2023, 07:24:18 AM »
You're leaving out a key chapter. Jerry stained "America's Team" by coming in and unceremoniously firing one of the all time great head coaches (and Belichick idol). He got over that tarnish pretty quickly by hiring another excellent coach and winning 3 superb owls. Jerry had a HOF coach and fired him. How's the team been since then? I'm a firm believer that firing JJ cost them the one and only fourpeat in NFL history.

Barry Switzer isn't your guy?  :) :) :) :) :).  By the way, I'm with you on that last point. They had all the tools for a four-peat, and most importantly, I think JJ and Troy had the mental toughness to make it happen.

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What I can say about this is that the modern version of team management seems to be the roller coaster model, where you build a super team for a 3 year window, spend 3 years paying the bills, and then spend 5 more trying to start the process over again. Personally I have no interest in seeing that. Being cheap had allowed them to maintain a fair amount of continuity. And it helped that half the people who left sucked and came back to succeed again. He kept the people who wanted to be there, let the ones that didn't walk, and occasionally took them back in when they saw the grass wasn't necessarily greener.

I mentioned that Brady's play wasn't the biggest loss for NE. It was his buying into the Patriot Way. I've also said the next biggest loss was having Brady as a recruiter. I don't think it's as simple as Joe keeps saying (Brady covered up their weaknesses) at all. I think having Brady around kept there from being any real weaknesses, as talent was seeking them out for either a ring or a second chance.

I'm honestly not sure how you do what Brady, Kraft, and Belichick did in the modern NFL, but I'd much rather see NE find a way to get back to that than watch them be the Rams. Or Tampa. Or Arizona. Or likely Cincinatti and Buffalo a couple of years from now.

This right here is the basic fundamental aspect of why I keep saying you have to do it over at least one iteration.  You have to do it over at least TWO of those cycles you laid out. That's why Matthew Stafford will never be listed among the greatest of all time.  Nor will Russell Wilson.   But Ben might.  We'll see about Patrick Mahomes.  He's not really lighting it up this season (and is getting the benefit of the Brady Doubt; man o' man, that ticky tack PI on an uncatchable ball to take the INT off the stat sheet last night was a gift from heaven). 

I think there's a lot of panicking right now, I really do.  None of these games "don't make sense".  They were close - but for turnovers - in game one against arguably the second best team in the league right now.  They were close - but for turnovers - in game two against arguably the fourth best team in the league right now.  They beat the Jets and played well.   Sure they got blown out by the Cowboys, but they are arguably the fifth best team in the league right now.   The NO game was bad in terms of score, but they were DECIMATED in their strongest area, and it was too many men to "next man up" it away.   The score is what the score is, I get it, but sometimes the reality is different.

The ONE thing I don't like is the mental mistakes (and in that I include the turnovers). 

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Those are certainly huge components, but man, there are so many more. Bill's tendency to look for even the slightest edge under every rock is unparalleled. Installing thermometers in the ramp area the Chargers walked out of? Reminding his players that Cowher gave his team the day off to buy plane tickets to the SB for their families? Creating formations that nobody had ever seen before? (The ineligible receiver plays against Baltimore might have been his finest hour.) Drilling into the D's head a pick slant that Seattle hadn't run in six weeks, presumably saving it up for a big game? It goes on and on. Bill's excellent qualities as a HC really are impressively broad.

And that's the one thing that makes me consider that this is panic.  If Kraft said to him: "You have three games.  Win two out of three or your gone." I have zero doubt that Bill could find a way to do that.  It might be at the expense of the rest of the season, but I think he could do that.  I think he's caught between the famous "results now selling out/results later the right way" scenario.  Every company has to deal with that on a constant basis.  Do we milk the current model or invest in developing the next model?   Do we sell out for cash in in this quarter, or worry about our long term earnings?  This is nothing new.  I think Bill has, more or less, the long view in mind.   The question is whether he can assuage or placate Kraft enough in the short term to hear it out.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #902 on: October 13, 2023, 07:43:59 AM »
Which reminds me... as much as I liked watching the Broncos defense (after hearing nightmares about them for the last couple weeks) I found myself skipping out to play Lego DC Super Villains more often than not.   Got exhausting hearing how amazing Kelce is for playing with a sprained ankle - what a warrior! - and listening to Al Michaels (who I generally LOVE) make excuses for Mahomes average play... and then having to watch the Subway and Statefarm commercials with both of them.   At one point in the third quarter, there was a break and they were going to commercial and they just for no reason, no statistics, no caption, nothing, put up a picture of Mahomes as they faded into the commercial. 

At the end, before the last field goal, the Amazon Prime bumper showed up on the screen saying:
"After the game:
- interview with the star player
- Kelce's great day
- Wilson's struggles in Arrowhead"

BEFORE the end of the game. Wilson drives for a score, there's no "struggles".  He'd be tied with a team they had no business hanging with.  If anything, the bumper should have been "Butker carries 54 guys on his back!".  Whatever; it's the NFL as product.  I'll keep watching, because I always do, and it's so much fun watching a guy like Isiah Pacheco run the ball, or Justin Simmons play defense...everything off the field, though, is getting tiresome.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #903 on: October 13, 2023, 07:57:49 AM »
I must say, as a Panthers fan, it's really interesting seeing the Patriots fans having a group therapy session to come to terms with the fact that they suck now.
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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #904 on: October 13, 2023, 08:00:36 AM »
 :lol

No therapy.  We live in the such for decades before the 20 year run.   :lol

It's just disappointing seeing how the Hoodie is no mismanaging things.  What worked with Brady, does not work with Jones, ect.
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Offline TAC

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #905 on: October 13, 2023, 09:18:32 AM »
I must say, as a Panthers fan, it's really interesting seeing the Patriots fans having a group therapy session to come to terms with the fact that they suck now.

No therapy here. It’s just back to how it always was.  :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #906 on: October 13, 2023, 09:38:27 AM »
I must say, as a Panthers fan, it's really interesting seeing the Patriots fans having a group therapy session to come to terms with the fact that they suck now.

No therapy here. It’s just back to how it always was.  :lol

It's weird to think some kids don't even know that, Tim.  I remember sitting in the stadium in 1990.  The Rod Rust era. 20,000 in a 60,000 seat stadium.  Free upgrades.  Times were tough.  If it wasn't for Kraft, the Pats may have move to St. Louis.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #907 on: October 13, 2023, 09:46:22 AM »
I must say, as a Panthers fan, it's really interesting seeing the Patriots fans having a group therapy session to come to terms with the fact that they suck now.

Now that's the overstatement of the year!   :)
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #908 on: October 13, 2023, 09:52:43 AM »
I must say, as a Panthers fan, it's really interesting seeing the Patriots fans having a group therapy session to come to terms with the fact that they suck now.

Now that's the overstatement of the year!   :)
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Online faizoff

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Re: 2023 NFL Thread
« Reply #909 on: October 13, 2023, 09:53:15 AM »
That bronco's offense looked awful the entire game. Save for that one drive with the TD.
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