2023 NFL Thread v Super Bowl matchup: Chiefs vs. 49ers

[Stadler]

Bills fans on reddit complaining about the Jags being there for two weeks and that that's somehow unfair to the precious Bills

In fairness, that is a very real advantage.

Nah, it's whining.

When did the Bills travel?

Maybe it is whining. I'm just suggesting that it's a distinct advantage for Jax.

I'm sort of with El Barto here. It is whining - suck it up, or next time travel sooner - but the advantage is real. 

[lordxizor]

Well... the Vikings are done. They needed to beat the Chiefs to have a chance to salvage something from the season. Might as well trade Cousins to the Jets and tank for a new QB.

[El Barto]

So I don't like blaming McCorkle for Sunday as the O line was really the bigger issue, but if he can only play when things are ideal then he's not really of any use in the NFL. His arm is not the same as it was in year 1, he's not good at making reads in a timely manner, and he makes poor decisions trying to force plays. Whether it's his fault or not doesn't really matter. He's clearly not going to be the guy. I cannot envision that they're going to exercise his fifth year option, so is there really any point in continuing to play him? I still think they should trade him while he still has value, as well as while he might still be able to turn things around for himself. I just don't see any reason to keep sending him out to suck each week. It's not doing anybody any good.

Zappe is not the answer. I don't think Cunningham is, either, but I'm not sure what they have to lose, and maybe he turns out to be a rockstar; who knows. The guy with the best upside right now is Corral, who may or may not still be on their practice squad. No matter what, it probably is time to start evaluating talent.

At this point it seems a little early to write off the season, and they will get better when some of their DBs return, but they're still going to be without their two best defensive players. This team was built around winning 23-19 games, but Mac can't get them 23 points, and their D is no longer capable of being elite with the injury situation. I'd say it's probably time for some radical action.

[Stadler]

So I don't like blaming McCorkle for Sunday as the O line was really the bigger issue, but if he can only play when things are ideal then he's not really of any use in the NFL. His arm is not the same as it was in year 1, he's not good at making reads in a timely manner, and he makes poor decisions trying to force plays. Whether it's his fault or not doesn't really matter. He's clearly not going to be the guy. I cannot envision that they're going to exercise his fifth year option, so is there really any point in continuing to play him? I still think they should trade him while he still has value, as well as while he might still be able to turn things around for himself. I just don't see any reason to keep sending him out to suck each week. It's not doing anybody any good.

Zappe is not the answer. I don't think Cunningham is, either, but I'm not sure what they have to lose, and maybe he turns out to be a rockstar; who knows. The guy with the best upside right now is Corral, who may or may not still be on their practice squad. No matter what, it probably is time to start evaluating talent.

At this point it seems a little early to write off the season, and they will get better when some of their DBs return, but they're still going to be without their two best defensive players. This team was built around winning 23-19 games, but Mac can't get them 23 points, and their D is no longer capable of being elite with the injury situation. I'd say it's probably time for some radical action.

Didn't Bill say in the presser that it's time to "start over from the beginning" or something like that? 

I tend to agree that Mac isn't the guy. A shame, because he had all the makings of being the guy.   

I think Corral is done and gone.  There's something more there; I don't know if he has personal issues or what's the what, but I don't think he's associated with the Patriots at this time.

[King Postwhore]

El Barto, it's a confluence of things with the offense.   The O is the #1 problem.  It has affected both the run and the pass.

The last of better than average receivers who can't get open as well hurts the O.

Like you said, Mac can't create,  so the GM failed setting up this offense. 

Also, the poor play by the O has affected the D. They are on the field too much snd get run down.

[El Barto]

So I don't like blaming McCorkle for Sunday as the O line was really the bigger issue, but if he can only play when things are ideal then he's not really of any use in the NFL. His arm is not the same as it was in year 1, he's not good at making reads in a timely manner, and he makes poor decisions trying to force plays. Whether it's his fault or not doesn't really matter. He's clearly not going to be the guy. I cannot envision that they're going to exercise his fifth year option, so is there really any point in continuing to play him? I still think they should trade him while he still has value, as well as while he might still be able to turn things around for himself. I just don't see any reason to keep sending him out to suck each week. It's not doing anybody any good.

Zappe is not the answer. I don't think Cunningham is, either, but I'm not sure what they have to lose, and maybe he turns out to be a rockstar; who knows. The guy with the best upside right now is Corral, who may or may not still be on their practice squad. No matter what, it probably is time to start evaluating talent.

At this point it seems a little early to write off the season, and they will get better when some of their DBs return, but they're still going to be without their two best defensive players. This team was built around winning 23-19 games, but Mac can't get them 23 points, and their D is no longer capable of being elite with the injury situation. I'd say it's probably time for some radical action.

Didn't Bill say in the presser that it's time to "start over from the beginning" or something like that? 

I tend to agree that Mac isn't the guy. A shame, because he had all the makings of being the guy.   

He did the first season, but something happened to that kid. And it wasn't Patricia and Judge. Mac never had a great arm, but he had excellent touch. He bulked up and revised his throwing motion between his first and second season, and it's just been a disaster. Every once in a while he throws a great pass, but they've become the exception rather than the norm. Ironically, his best throws now are from deep in the red zone, but he can't get them there to take advantage. The compressed field seems to work for him.

And at this point I suspect those lovable Patriots fans are probably in his head in a bad way. While it's popular to blame last year on the coaching, I suspect hearing 80k people chant Zappe at him might have been more destructive. I hope he goes somewhere and succeeds.

I think Corral is done and gone.  There's something more there; I don't know if he has personal issues or what's the what, but I don't think he's associated with the Patriots at this time.

I was unaware, but it seems he has issue with depression, and was waived after going AWOL. That's too bad. I thought he might have worked out as a backup to McCorkle. They're the same sort of QB, but Corral was more physically gifted in just about every way.

[El Barto]

El Barto, it's a confluence of things with the offense.   The O is the #1 problem.  It has affected both the run and the pass.

The last of better than average receivers who can't get open as well hurts the O.

Like you said, Mac can't create,  so the GM failed setting up this offense. 

Also, the poor play by the O has affected the D. They are on the field too much snd get run down.

Presumably you mean the O-Line, and that's certainly the case. NE with that line and MJ behind it are a simple thing to beat. The D game plan all along hasn't changed. Load the box and make Mac beat you, and it seems clear that he can't.

As for his receivers, this is the best group he's had, and certainly a far better group than his rookie year where he made the pro bowl. This isn't about his receivers.

[King Postwhore]

Oh, #1 problem is light years ahead of #2.

The O line is why the O doesn't produce.

[TAC]

Interesting to see Alex Guerrero on the Raiders' sidelines. If he employed by the team?

[lonestar]

Definitely a lot nicer to see Jimmy G throwing picks for the Raiders than for the Niners 

[Nick]

Just looked it up as I was curious. C.J. Stroud is the only guy with comparable yardage to have not thrown an INT yet this year other than Bruck Purdy.

[Dream Team]

Well... the Vikings are done. They needed to beat the Chiefs to have a chance to salvage something from the season. Might as well trade Cousins to the Jets and tank for a new QB.

They used all their coin flips up last season when they were 11-0 in one score games. Regression to the mean. They still have talent, but losing Jefferson is a major blow. Keep rebuilding the defense for next season.

[Stadler]

I was actively rooting against the Raiders last night; that was dumb to try to kick that field goal.  I'm not a fan of Josh McDaniel as a head coach. I just don't think he has the details down pat to be a HEAD coach.  He may be a brilliant and innovative offensive coordinator, but this is two games in a row that I watched him botch the last four minutes or so.  He got bailed out by an ill-advised heave from Jordan Love, but that's about it.

[Dream Team]

1. Forty-Niners: look unstoppable, but like last year hope they don't have all their best games early in the year
2. Eagles: their game against the Niners Dec 3 is going to be epic
3. Dolphins: still believe in them, you'll have to score at least 35 to beat them most games
4. Chiefs: winning while rotating receivers and D-linemen until they figure out who is going to step up
5. Bills: always dangerous but prone to occasional WTF games
6. Lions: dominated a weak team which is what you should do if you want to be great
7. Seahawks: upcoming game against Cincy will tell us a lot about them
8. Jaguars: offense starting to click again
9. Bucs: deserve this spot
10. Ravens: no illusions here, they would have beaten the Steelers if their receivers could catch

Coach of the Year: Tomlin. Steelers have scored 5 offensive TDs but are 3-2
Worst Coaching: Belichick, Payton

MVP: McCaffrey, Purdy, Hurts

Trivia of the week: counting kneeldowns as "QB carries" has always been dumb; the trivia aspect is that if you remove all kneeldowns from the equation, Mahomes averages more yards per carry than either Lamar Jackson or Justin Fields. Next week's trivia will not be Chiefs or Steelers-centric so don't worry.

[bosk1]

1. Forty-Niners: look unstoppable, but like last year hope they don't have all their best games early in the year

I think you are forgetting that last year, they got off to a VERY slow start, and definitely had their best games in the latter half of the season.  But agreed as to your major point.

2. Eagles: their game against the Niners Dec 3 is going to be epic

Yeah, I think that, more than any other game, is one that a lot of 49ers and Eagles have on their minds.  If the 49ers win it, I think they are definitely the #1 seed in the NFC (even though it is likely to early to clinch it, mathematically).

3. Dolphins: still believe in them, you'll have to score at least 35 to beat them most games

Most weeks.  But it will be interesting to see how they fare against top defenses. 

6. Lions: dominated a weak team which is what you should do if you want to be great

For sure.  It's far too easy and lazy to just say, "Well, yeah, they've got a good record.  But who have they played?"  If you win all the games against teams on the easier half of your schedule, and split the games against the good teams, you're in the playoffs and usually with good seeding and a chance to make a deep run.  Through five weeks, that is what they are setting themselves up to do.

MVP: McCaffrey, Purdy, Hurts

List looks legit to me.

Trivia of the week: counting kneeldowns as "QB carries" has always been dumb

Agreed.  But as for the trivia aspect, I don't care.  The less credit that idiot gets for anything, the better.

[Jamesman42]

Which idiot?

[Dave_Manchester]

Article on why and where it's gone wrong for the Patriots:

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/anatomy-of-how-patriots-bill-belichick-got-here/

This stuff is probably obvious to the fans but to a relative newcomer to the sport like me I found it informative.

[romdrums]

Article on why and where it's gone wrong for the Patriots:

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/anatomy-of-how-patriots-bill-belichick-got-here/

This stuff is probably obvious to the fans but to a relative newcomer to the sport like me I found it informative.

I love how people are looking at Belichick's post Brady coaching record and thinking this mediocrity is something new.  Has everyone forgotten how thoroughly average he was as the head coach in Cleveland during the early 90's?  I haven't. I'm not saying his success was largely due to Tom Brady, but having Tom Brady as his QB allowed him to focus on things he wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

[King Postwhore]

Article on why and where it's gone wrong for the Patriots:

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/anatomy-of-how-patriots-bill-belichick-got-here/

This stuff is probably obvious to the fans but to a relative newcomer to the sport like me I found it informative.

I love how people are looking at Belichick's post Brady coaching record and thinking this mediocrity is something new.  Has everyone forgotten how thoroughly average he was as the head coach in Cleveland during the early 90's?  I haven't. I'm not saying his success was largely due to Tom Brady, but having Tom Brady as his QB allowed him to focus on things he wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

Dave, as a Pats fan who had season tickets for 26 year I can say it was Brady and Belichick combo that blazed the 6 championships. Right now, Belichick,  the GM is what's hurting the team.

An example,  Jones the QB needs to grow still in his reads and needs time to scan the field but he just doesn't have enough time to do so.  He's jittery in the pocket.

The running game which should be strong just with Stephenson is terrible this year. Again because of the offensive line.

Another issue is not signing your own like Jacoby Myers. A clutch undrafted player who was very productive and a go to for Jones. So the sign JuJu Smith-Schuster for basically the same contract and this guy has been unproductive and might have a bad wheel.

Just so many questionable moves after letting Brady go.

[King Postwhore]

Article on why and where it's gone wrong for the Patriots:

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/anatomy-of-how-patriots-bill-belichick-got-here/

This stuff is probably obvious to the fans but to a relative newcomer to the sport like me I found it informative.

I love how people are looking at Belichick's post Brady coaching record and thinking this mediocrity is something new.  Has everyone forgotten how thoroughly average he was as the head coach in Cleveland during the early 90's?  I haven't. I'm not saying his success was largely due to Tom Brady, but having Tom Brady as his QB allowed him to focus on things he wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

He built that team to a playoff team only to have the owner pull the rug from under him and the city. Announced the move to Baltimore the next year.

[El Barto]

Dave, as a Pats fan who had season tickets for 26 year I can say it was Brady and Belichick combo that blazed the 6 championships.

It was certainly a partnership, and they both made each other better. That's what bugs me about the entire debate about who's more responsible. It simply doesn't work, but it makes for great radio so we get bombarded with it nonstop. You know what's fun? When somebody asks you who's the person most responsible for the dynasty, tell them TB80. It's true and they won't know WTF you're talking about.

To his credit, Brady gets this. He's been very clear all along that it wasn't about him. He doesn't get to wear the rings if it weren't for great players around him, great coaching, great fans, and great ownership. People conveniently forget that it's a team game when praising Brady or blasting Belichick.

As for the article, there are some good points and some silly ones. I suppose I have to agree with the author, though, that Belichick was a fool for immediately not running out to sign another Gronkowsky. Every team needs to have one.

[King Postwhore]

El Barto, I think Brady made it easy for Belichick to run and draft his system which is very different than others.  Now that Brady is gone, he his the same philosophy as if Brady is his QB and he hasn't adapted

[faizoff]

From that article, BB wanted to send Gronk packing to Detroit, so Gronk threatens to retire? What's the story behind that, or something like a simple trade option over blown?

[El Barto]

Speaking of TB80:   
https://steelersdepot.com/2023/10/bill-cowher-says-the-2001-afc-title-game-loss-still-keeps-him-up-at-night/

El Barto, I think Brady made it easy for Belichick to run and draft his system which is very different than others.  Now that Brady is gone, he his the same philosophy as if Brady is his QB and he hasn't adapted

This is no doubt true, but it goes both ways. Belichick dumped Brady into an offensive system that he was naturally able to master (and I mean truly master). And as for the so-called Patriot way, it was a perfect match as Brady bought into it just as much as Belichick (until the very end, that is, when Brady turned prima dona).

I said as soon as Brady left that the bigger issue wouldn't be Brady's play, but Brady's attitude towards the NE culture. That applies to the coaches leaving, as well (which the article correctly pointed out). A culture drain is a huge part of what's going wrong right now. He's still got some players that buy into it, Judon is a natural born Patriot, but as the coaches and players all move on it's harder to maintain that culture. And a failure to buy into that culture has always been the problem with Patriots coaches outside of NE (including Belichick in Cleveland).

[El Barto]

From that article, BB wanted to send Gronk packing to Detroit, so Gronk threatens to retire? What's the story behind that, or something like a simple trade option over blown?

Belichick has always favoured cutting players loose before they fall apart, rather than after. Ideally while they still have trade value. Gronk really was falling apart at that point, and NE could have gotten good draft capital in exchange for him. I would have traded him in a heartbeat. (I'm also one that thinks they should have traded Brady, for what it's worth.)

[King Postwhore]

From that article, BB wanted to send Gronk packing to Detroit, so Gronk threatens to retire? What's the story behind that, or something like a simple trade option over blown?

Belichick has always favoured cutting players loose before they fall apart, rather than after. Ideally while they still have trade value. Gronk really was falling apart at that point, and NE could have gotten good draft capital in exchange for him. I would have traded him in a heartbeat. (I'm also one that thinks they should have traded Brady, for what it's worth.)

There was also bickering between Gronk and his family and Belichick with how they handled Gronk's injuries. 

[TAC]

Right now, Belichick,  the GM is what's hurting the team.

So... on the surface, this really isn't wrong. I think Belichick is stiull adept at breaking down film and teaching football as much as anyone out there, but....it's still a cop out take.

[King Postwhore]

Right now, Belichick,  the GM is what's hurting the team.

So... on the surface, this really isn't wrong. I think Belichick is stiull adept at breaking down film and teaching football as much as anyone out there, but....it's still a cop out take.

I don't think so.  The talent on this team is not at a level than other teams.

I will say 50/50 with his handling of Mac Johnes.

GM Bill built a terrible O line.
Coach Bill made the decision to have an O Coord who never ran an offense last year. Stunting the growth of the young QB.

That being said, Mac didn't handle the adversity well last year.

[TAC]

Right now, Belichick,  the GM is what's hurting the team.

So... on the surface, this really isn't wrong. I think Belichick is stiull adept at breaking down film and teaching football as much as anyone out there, but....it's still a cop out take.

I don't think so.  The talent on this team is not at a level than other teams.

I will say 50/50 with his handling of Mac Johnes.

GM Bill built a terrible O line.
Coach Bill made the decision to have an O Coord who never ran an offense last year. Stunting the growth of the young QB.

That being said, Mac didn't handle the adversity well last year.

You can't separate the two, and doing so is only because one wants it both ways.

If Kraft forced a GM on Bill to make all of the personnel decisions, how do you think that'd go. In theory, it's a good idea, but guess what? Belichick the coach is ONLY going to work for Belichick the GM.

[King Postwhore]

You not getting this, eh?  Bill made mistakes on both jobs. That's the point. It Kraft isn't happy with his performance,  then fire him. Either way he's in charge of decisions.

His decisions he been poor. It you want to blame Kraft, then it's not strong arming him more.

[TAC]

I am getting it. It's cute to say Bill the GM vs Bill the coach, but I'm saying that you cannot separate the two. It's a copout.


Don't get me started on Kraft. How about spending some money on his team?

[bosk1]

I don't follow the Pats closely, but I think Barto's takes (pretty much all of them on this page) are spot on.  What helped NE be such an incredible, long-lived dynasty was that amazing symbiosis between QB, coach, other players, ownership, and management.  To a great degree, they all bought into a system and culture, and that allowed them to have long-term sustained success.  Each of those pieces elevates the others, and I think you pretty much have to have that to have long-term success through several iterations of a team as players come and go. 

I think the 49ers are poised to do a similar thing, although probably not to the same degree as in NE.  Coaching, management, and ownership there have all established a system and a culture geared toward success, and they have had the players buy in, and they seem to be masterful in the Lynch/Shanahan era at obtaining the talent.  They inherited a 2-14 team in 2017 with zero prospects of a franchise QB and built the team into a monster that has had 3 deep playoff runs (1 SB appearance and 2 more NFC championship appearances) and well on their way to a 4th.  The biggest variable has been injury and instability at the QB position.  But it really is looking like they have their guy now that can be the franchise QB, and while I'm cautious about being overly praiseworthy about a guy who hasn't played a full season yet, after watching a lot of film and listening to film analysis on what Purdy is doing, and how and why he is doing it, I have to say that every indication is that he can and will be THE guy for a long time.

NE definitely had their time in the sun.  It was well-deserved and is absolutely praiseworthy.  I think it's been really good for football.  I have no idea whether they will rebuild and continue that, or if the sun has set on the dynasty.  But I think the next one is definitely on the rise.

[Nick]

I have a constant disconnect between knowing what I've seen in Purdy and just waiting for some sort of inevitable young tragedy.

Like, dude is one of two QBs with 1500+ yards that hasn't thrown a INT all year. He's been fucking amazing. But I feel if he throws one early in a game and they get behind, he'll throw two more. And then I wonder how he recovers, etc. But that's all in my head and looking at possibilities. When it comes to what he's done, especially at his age, he should be talked about as one of the best QBs so far this year, without question.

[bosk1]

I'm not overly worried about that.  Yeah, it'll happen at some point.  It happens to every QB.  Joe Montana had a game with a QB rating of 27.7 where he went 12/26 with 2 interceptions and no touchdowns, and another where he had a QBR of 28.5, went 18/37 with 0 TDs and 3 INTs.  Brady's worst game yielded a QBR of 22.5, when he went 14/28 with 0 TDs and 4 INTs.  It happens.  With Purdy's grasp of the position and system, and the coaching, players, and support system around him, I don't see him taking a permanent downward spiral when he inevitably has those games.  I could be mistaken, of course, but every indicator really points toward his long-term success, as long as he can stay relatively healthy (which is always the biggest unpredictable variable). 

I think both he and the team are incredibly well positioned for long term success.  I just hope that translates into a championship (or several).

[Stadler]

I have a constant disconnect between knowing what I've seen in Purdy and just waiting for some sort of inevitable young tragedy.

Like, dude is one of two QBs with 1500+ yards that hasn't thrown a INT all year. He's been fucking amazing. But I feel if he throws one early in a game and they get behind, he'll throw two more. And then I wonder how he recovers, etc. But that's all in my head and looking at possibilities. When it comes to what he's done, especially at his age, he should be talked about as one of the best QBs so far this year, without question.

These are fair questions though.  You have to go through the fire.  You have to go through one circuit of the league, and face each team when they're going for YOU, not just scheming for the team in general.   He's going to be good, I have no doubt, but we've got to let him play the games.