Obesity

[chknptpie]

I wish clothes sizes worked but unfortunately womens sizes are completely arbitrary and mean nothing. In one brand I'm a size 4, in another I'm a size 10. Fucking bonkers.

I mean the clothes you already wear.  You'd know when your regular pair of jeans or shirt don't fit anymore and become too big.  The size of new clothes you buy isn't relevant here, it's the ones you are already in.

I can agree with that for the most part. Focusing on the clothes in the closet and how they fit makes more sense than the size of the clothes.

[Harmony]

No offense, but I just hate this kind of thinking.  Each to their own but as I said earlier, no one really knows you and your body like you do.  I'd recommend trying to take things into your own hands a little more and try and learn.  I think people get coaches to do the work for them instead of trying to work things out themselves.  Be mindful and in tune with yourself and you'll get there.  You want to trust he knows what he is doing, what if he doesn't?  It's great you're losing inches, so regardless what you are doing is working.  As I said, some people need the assistance, but at least understand the processes yourself and how you are getting to these points in your journey.  I think that's the big thing.

I don't like the practice he's telling you to do, but who am I to judge.  I understand the theory but deep down even if you are trying to desensitise, the number will still subconsciously sit in the back of your mind.   You are making progress however, so keep it up.

No offense taken at all - I get you are expressing concern and you bring up very valid points.  But I did my due diligence with my coaches and the program.  I learned about the program and its philosophies and then watched and waited for about 6 months to make my choice.  I also talked to former clients (because one of their goals is to make you a former client, not keep you paying forever) especially women in my age group and who are in menopause or who have various health conditions like PCOS or thyroid issues.  I don't have those, but I know people who do and am very aware of how these issues are treated.  So I wanted to be sure they weren't just selling a product, like supplements, and spreading misinformation about health conditions.  Then I booked consultations and talked about goals and options.  I asked a fuck ton of questions.  I made sure they knew their shit, and they do.  They cover all the bases.  So when I say I need to trust them, I really mean that I need to trust myself because I took a long time and a lot of effort to choose my coaches.

Change is fucking hard.  It makes your mind play tricks on you.  It makes you dig deeply into things that are painful and things that are holding you back.  Resistance is to be expected and I by my nature resist change.  And I am being mindful - more mindful than I've ever been before.  And that can be problematic because I overthink most things.

For now, the compromise is this.  I weigh weekly.  If the number bothers me to the point I fixate on it more than the other points of progress, then I wait 2 days and weigh again.  If I can treat the number like merely a piece of data and am able to move on, then I wait the rest of the week.  Ultimately it is my call and my decision.  Dry January has also come to an end, so by indulging a bit - nothing hog wild or anything - and the scale stops moving, then I will know I need to cut my calories back a bit.  It is helpful to know in order to keep making progress.   

And closet shopping is the BEST!  Cheap too.   

[wolfking]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Harmony.  Seems like you are all over it.  There's just so many hacks out there that get their degree and take people through programs off Google so nice that you have been thorough, and it's working so good luck and keep going. 

[Stadler]

It’s not about numbers. It’s about habits.

And that is exactly why my coach wants me to weigh every day.  I'm probably not explaining this correctly but he is trying to desensitize me to that number.  Like someone who has a fear of spiders can gradually be desensitized to being in a room with them, then seeing them crawl, then touching them, then holding them.  Over time, the spiders lose their power.

I talked to my behavioral coach about it this morning.  She is supportive in me going either way.  But I know that eventually, I am going to need to deal with this one parameter holding all the power for me.  I have had so many other wins this week - loss of inches, fitting into jeans I haven't worn since before the pandemic.  I have all of these non-scale pieces of evidence that what I'm doing is working.  Why am I letting one piece of evidence - pardon the pun - carry more weight in my mind than another?  I feel like I just need to let go and trust that my coaches know what they are doing and stop trying to be "perfect" or control everything.  I have much more to ponder over this and it helps writing it out here, so thanks for the feedback.

And chknptpie, I hear you on that.  If I let a clothing size dictate my "success" I'd be in big fucking trouble!  LoL

I know you asked "no P/R" and I'm going to do my best to honor that, but there's a societal component to all this that is unavoidable.  We are a society of affirmation.  We just are.  Likes.  Favorites.   Retweets.  "See her, be her!".   It's almost as if we can't actually live in our own life for more than five minutes without having to either compare ourselves to someone who is (or appears to be) doing better than us, or having someone else tell us how great we are. 

I still say the mechanism(s) are the same.  Whether you eat a SuperSize Big Mac for relief, or drink a fifth of bourbon, or shoot up the local mall is sort of irrelevant in the sense that our brains, our psyches have not kept pace with our cultural and societal "advancements" (in quotes, because we can debate that word; I don't at all think these things really are advancements).  I'm lucky in that I don't feel the need to keep up with the Jones's;  but I am not lucky in that it is a lot of work for me to keep up with what's good for ME, and I'm not kind to myself.  I have people around me, though, for whom the internet is their window to the world.  One, her entire world-view of what a family should be like is gleaned from Facebook and Instagram. There are a lot of rainbows in her desired view of the world, and not a lot of rain clouds; as a result, she doesn't know how to handle rain.   Another, her entire world-view of success is based on how much money others have; home listings are near torture for her.  There is a lot of wishful thinking (the lottery would solve all my problems!) in her desired world-view.

I don't blame capitalism; capitalism is the fast follower, not the leader.  Forget bans; even that is part of the problem, asking someone else to do the hard work for us.  If each and every one of us said "NO" to high fructose corn syrup (it used to be that I called diet soda the devil's semen, but I've changed that to HFCS) there's not a company in the world that would continue to sell it. It gets used because it sells.  It doesn't sell because it continues to get used. 

I agree with Harmony that we have to start putting these lessons back in our schools.  How to cook; how to balance a check book; what a loan looks like; what a nutrition label really means; things that help us live our daily lives, independent of whether we're white, black, gay, straight, liberal, conservative, whatever.  None of this requires an advanced degree, none of this requires an attentive politician, none of this requires any of the information that get each day from our "news".

[ReaperKK]

It’s not about numbers. It’s about habits.

And that is exactly why my coach wants me to weigh every day.  I'm probably not explaining this correctly but he is trying to desensitize me to that number.  Like someone who has a fear of spiders can gradually be desensitized to being in a room with them, then seeing them crawl, then touching them, then holding them.  Over time, the spiders lose their power.

I talked to my behavioral coach about it this morning.  She is supportive in me going either way.  But I know that eventually, I am going to need to deal with this one parameter holding all the power for me.  I have had so many other wins this week - loss of inches, fitting into jeans I haven't worn since before the pandemic.  I have all of these non-scale pieces of evidence that what I'm doing is working.  Why am I letting one piece of evidence - pardon the pun - carry more weight in my mind than another?  I feel like I just need to let go and trust that my coaches know what they are doing and stop trying to be "perfect" or control everything.  I have much more to ponder over this and it helps writing it out here, so thanks for the feedback.

And chknptpie, I hear you on that.  If I let a clothing size dictate my "success" I'd be in big fucking trouble!  LoL

I agree with Harmony that we have to start putting these lessons back in our schools.  How to cook; how to balance a check book; what a loan looks like; what a nutrition label really means; things that help us live our daily lives, independent of whether we're white, black, gay, straight, liberal, conservative, whatever.  None of this requires an advanced degree, none of this requires an attentive politician, none of this requires any of the information that get each day from our "news".

Not to nitpick, or change the direction of this thread but IMO this whole "lets focus on the adding xyz to the school curriculum" holds little weight for me. I'm a product of the Florida public school system (lulz) and we not only got taught how to balance a checkbook, do taxes, and use a credit card but we did it in three grades, 5th, 8th, and 10th. We even had two full field trip days dedicated to going to an off site building where they mocked up a small city and had you live a full adult life (5th and 8th grade). You were given a credit card, check book, and randomly chosen career and salary and had to manage your money throughout the day. We also had to take a home cooking class in 8th grade. I'm not a fossil (yet), I graduated high school in 2005. However when I look through my fb feed of people I was in school with it appears non of those points about your financial or physical well being stuck anymore than that grade school calculus class.

I realize I'm speaking anecdotally but IMO people will follow the path of least resistance, especially when it comes health andeating habits. Telling kids not to put down a triple bacon whopper is going to have little effect IMO.

[Stadler]

Fair enough. I know up here, in Connecticut, that's not happening.  I have one kid that went to an elite - on every level - high school, and didn't learn those skills, and three others that went to a low-ranked public school (bottom 10% of state schools) and CERTAINLY didn't learn those skills. Anything else is veering into P/R, though, I think.

[Harmony]

This upcoming Tuesday, I've getting surgery for a stomach staple procedure.  I'm down 54 pound right now and by next year with the surgery, I'll be down 160 more.

Hey man - I just wanted to wish you well tomorrow.  I look forward to reading your check in post when you are up for it.


Also - about keeping P/R out, it was more about tone than issues.  I mean, I'm not a moderator so use your best judgment.  I just didn't want a bunch of posts railing on and on about how fat people only have themselves to blame and it is a moral failing on their part that they aren't taking charge of their health.  I'm all about self-responsibility, but there are so many factors a play in this topic, that I just don't want people feeling defeated by the discussion here.

As to education in school again - I don't see why a science class cannot at least include a term on nutritional science.  It is something that impacts every human being.  I'm all for the study of oceanography, zoology, cosmology and chemistry being taught in high school, but to me, nutritional science is a life skill and those other sciences while being important, do not apply to everyone.

[TAC]

I'm all about self-responsibility, but there are so many factors a play in this topic, that I just don't want people feeling defeated by the discussion here.

Yeah, but it's still mostly self responsibility, and that's not political or religious to say that.

Yes, though as you say, lots of factors, sure.

I mean, the discussion has been pretty good. We seem to not want people to feel defeated by pointing out all of the other factors, absolving them of personal responsibility. It's like giving everyone something or someone else to blame.

I know people have differing degrees of challenges, but we have to stop making excuses for everyone too.

[emtee]

One thing I've learned through the years--that I used to dismiss--is that genetic predisposition plays a big role. I've been lucky, even though I worked out pretty hard for 90% of my life, but I've known people who struggle so mightily that it doesn't seem fair. My wife's closest friend ate popcorn for 2 meals a day and still battled her weight. You see family photos with multi-generations represented and they are all heavy. While some of that may be eating habits, genetics can't be ignored as a factor.

[TAC]

One thing I've learned through the years--that I used to dismiss--is that genetic predisposition plays a big role.

Oh certainly. We're all slaves to the bodies given us. I have one with a useless pancreas.

[wolfking]

One thing I've learned through the years--that I used to dismiss--is that genetic predisposition plays a big role. I've been lucky, even though I worked out pretty hard for 90% of my life, but I've known people who struggle so mightily that it doesn't seem fair. My wife's closest friend ate popcorn for 2 meals a day and still battled her weight. You see family photos with multi-generations represented and they are all heavy. While some of that may be eating habits, genetics can't be ignored as a factor.

I generally agree with this statement, but people on a whole use this too much of an excuse these days.  They blame their genetics which means they give up and don't try at all.  No, if genetics come into play, that just means you try fucking harder.  What's fair and what's not is shit you can't change.  In life there's no point saying 'it's not fair.'  All you can change is how you adapt to it and overcome these things.

I'm all about self-responsibility, but there are so many factors a play in this topic, that I just don't want people feeling defeated by the discussion here.

Yeah, but it's still mostly self responsibility, and that's not political or religious to say that.

Yes, though as you say, lots of factors, sure.

I mean, the discussion has been pretty good. We seem to not want people to feel defeated by pointing out all of the other factors, absolving them of personal responsibility. It's like giving everyone something or someone else to blame.

I know people have differing degrees of challenges, but we have to stop making excuses for everyone too.

Yep, we allow ourselves too many excuses these days. 

[Ben_Jamin]

This upcoming Tuesday, I've getting surgery for a stomach staple procedure.  I'm down 54 pound right now and by next year with the surgery, I'll be down 160 more.

Hey man - I just wanted to wish you well tomorrow.  I look forward to reading your check in post when you are up for it.


Also - about keeping P/R out, it was more about tone than issues.  I mean, I'm not a moderator so use your best judgment.  I just didn't want a bunch of posts railing on and on about how fat people only have themselves to blame and it is a moral failing on their part that they aren't taking charge of their health.  I'm all about self-responsibility, but there are so many factors a play in this topic, that I just don't want people feeling defeated by the discussion here.

As to education in school again - I don't see why a science class cannot at least include a term on nutritional science.  It is something that impacts every human being.  I'm all for the study of oceanography, zoology, cosmology and chemistry being taught in high school, but to me, nutritional science is a life skill and those other sciences while being important, do not apply to everyone.

For what's it's worth. I did take a class in my Sophomore year in High School for a half semester which was called Health. My teacher was big on eating healthy and at one point, she did an experiment and brought in "Tofu" dog and regular hot dogs and asked us to tell the difference, and also asked us how it tasted, if we liked it, and which one we preferred. I enjoyed the tofu dog and found it less salty than the regular hot dog.

This was also a required course to graduate, it was paired with"Social Skills" (can't quite remember the exact name but it was Social something).

Even at that, just because it's being taught and required doesn't mean students will understand it. A good example I can think of that's similar is math, and how much people do not like math, but it's required. And yet, it seems that people don't even understand or grasp basic math.

[MetalJunkie]

This upcoming Tuesday, I've getting surgery for a stomach staple procedure.  I'm down 54 pound right now and by next year with the surgery, I'll be down 160 more.

Right on! I had an urgent care doctor recommend that procedure for me. But a few years later, almost dying of COVID scared the life into me. I'm down quite a bit. I plateaued for a while, but I just started losing again.

I'm normally too ashamed to give out my weight, but I'm proud of the progress I've made. Down from 460 to 376. Life is MUCH better and hopefully continues to keep getting better.

[wolfking]

Awesome progress mate!  Keep going!

[Stadler]

I'm all about self-responsibility, but there are so many factors a play in this topic, that I just don't want people feeling defeated by the discussion here.

Yeah, but it's still mostly self responsibility, and that's not political or religious to say that.

Yes, though as you say, lots of factors, sure.

I mean, the discussion has been pretty good. We seem to not want people to feel defeated by pointing out all of the other factors, absolving them of personal responsibility. It's like giving everyone something or someone else to blame.

I know people have differing degrees of challenges, but we have to stop making excuses for everyone too.

But I think that notion that "it's complicated" isn't separate from the role of responsibility.  I have weight in my family.  I'm technically obese - I'm 5'8" if I'm not slouching and I'm usually in the 240, 245 range - and so it's more complicated than just "don't eat McDonald's".  One of my first cousins was about 5'3" and was well over 450 pounds when she passed.   But ultimately, it IS me, whether it's diet, or mental wellness or something more.  I can't really expect my government to take responsibility for my obesity.  SOMETHING is causing obesity rates to have tripled over the last 50 years (personally I think RJ was on to something with the HFCS, but that's just me).

[hunnus2000]

We've known about the negative effects of HFCS for what 30 or 40 years? It's only fairly recently known the negative effects of soybean oil and canola oil and a bunch of other stuff the government allows the food industry to put in our foods. And when we couple that with aging then we are really fighting an uphill battle. Our hormones change as we get older and we're less energetic. It's almost like we have to rebuild our mind and body every day.

[Harmony]

I think people need to be careful about fear mongering foods.  Unless you are sure that you understand the science or are listening to people who really do and have the credentials to back them up.

I think we all can agree that over consumption of sugar, no matter its form, is not a good idea.  And yet many of the same people who demonize HFCS use Agave and honey claiming these are superior because they are "natural" and yet they actually have higher fructose than HFCS.  Here is a clip with an attached source on the subject of HFCS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX0Vx1AxtC4

And seed oils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrfS0A3Zcww

Canola oil is 'rancid' claim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2e0AIG7VU&list=PLm_Kdmr_ATZFF2Ak_h16UvNKIc8sys4_u

[Stadler]

We've known about the negative effects of HFCS for what 30 or 40 years? It's only fairly recently known the negative effects of soybean oil and canola oil and a bunch of other stuff the government allows the food industry to put in our foods. And when we couple that with aging then we are really fighting an uphill battle. Our hormones change as we get older and we're less energetic. It's almost like we have to rebuild our mind and body every day.

That highlighted is my point, though.   We don't need the government holding our hands and telling us, like we're five, what we can and can't eat.  That's where the "responsibility" comes in.  if you want to drink soda or eat frozen desserts from a box, have at it!  But teach people what they need to know to make an informed decision.   There's a difference in point of view here; I know I don't WANT to be obsese, but I'm not kept up at night over it. Others here - and I'll leave it to them to speak, I'm not here to speak for them - are clearly less okay with their current physical conditioning and they either want to or are doing something about it.  So they get to make decisions in keeping with their desires and goals.  But if some portion of the obese are okay with themselves like they are, if their approach is "I get one life, and I'm going to live it", they should be able to "do you". 

[Harmony]

This upcoming Tuesday, I've getting surgery for a stomach staple procedure.  I'm down 54 pound right now and by next year with the surgery, I'll be down 160 more.

Right on! I had an urgent care doctor recommend that procedure for me. But a few years later, almost dying of COVID scared the life into me. I'm down quite a bit. I plateaued for a while, but I just started losing again.

I'm normally too ashamed to give out my weight, but I'm proud of the progress I've made. Down from 460 to 376. Life is MUCH better and hopefully continues to keep getting better.

Hey, that is so great. Of course you should be proud of your progress.  Well done!!  I'd love to know your thoughts on consistency and patience.  And what changes you've made in your day to day habits that have helped you the most.

[gmillerdrake]

Prayers and well wishes to Joe! His surgery is today so here's to him recovering swiftly and his body adapting and adjusting the best it possibly can!     We're with ya' King!!

[hunnus2000]

We've known about the negative effects of HFCS for what 30 or 40 years? It's only fairly recently known the negative effects of soybean oil and canola oil and a bunch of other stuff the government allows the food industry to put in our foods. And when we couple that with aging then we are really fighting an uphill battle. Our hormones change as we get older and we're less energetic. It's almost like we have to rebuild our mind and body every day.

That highlighted is my point, though.   We don't need the government holding our hands and telling us, like we're five, what we can and can't eat.  That's where the "responsibility" comes in.  if you want to drink soda or eat frozen desserts from a box, have at it!  But teach people what they need to know to make an informed decision.   There's a difference in point of view here; I know I don't WANT to be obsese, but I'm not kept up at night over it. Others here - and I'll leave it to them to speak, I'm not here to speak for them - are clearly less okay with their current physical conditioning and they either want to or are doing something about it.  So they get to make decisions in keeping with their desires and goals.  But if some portion of the obese are okay with themselves like they are, if their approach is "I get one life, and I'm going to live it", they should be able to "do you".

Well I was just stating a fact that the FDA regulates what goes into our food and not some social statement that the "man" is trying to dictate what you eat. For instance, the FDA allows egg farms to market eggs as cage free and vegetarian fed. Cage free means the chickens have a couple of more inches in their cages it doesn't mean they roam around the farm eating bugs and other stuff which is their real diet.

And BTW - I am not demonizing foods in general, just the ingredients and especially the marketing.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think people need to be careful about fear mongering foods.  Unless you are sure that you understand the science or are listening to people who really do and have the credentials to back them up.

I think we all can agree that over consumption of sugar, no matter its form, is not a good idea.  And yet many of the same people who demonize HFCS use Agave and honey claiming these are superior because they are "natural" and yet they actually have higher fructose than HFCS.  Here is a clip with an attached source on the subject of HFCS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX0Vx1AxtC4

And seed oils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrfS0A3Zcww

Canola oil is 'rancid' claim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2e0AIG7VU&list=PLm_Kdmr_ATZFF2Ak_h16UvNKIc8sys4_u

Moderation. Everything we eat is bad for us if eaten excessively. It's not bad if we moderate it enough to where we can enjoy it and it won't cause detrimental effects to our health. Makes me remember when foods were utilized as rewards or made for special occasions. Remember when eating Steak was a formal affair, and a fancy meal. Now you can go anywhere and order a steak, you are free to eat as many as you want at Golden Corral, or other buffets.

It is interesting to note that when I went to some chinese buffets, they had a notice that said..."Only take what you can eat." And then one time I went to Azumas (a sushi place) and wanted some fried rice, and the Asian lady told me, "Its too much rice for you." And she walked away.

[hunnus2000]

I think people need to be careful about fear mongering foods.  Unless you are sure that you understand the science or are listening to people who really do and have the credentials to back them up.

I think we all can agree that over consumption of sugar, no matter its form, is not a good idea.  And yet many of the same people who demonize HFCS use Agave and honey claiming these are superior because they are "natural" and yet they actually have higher fructose than HFCS.  Here is a clip with an attached source on the subject of HFCS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX0Vx1AxtC4

And seed oils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrfS0A3Zcww

Canola oil is 'rancid' claim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2e0AIG7VU&list=PLm_Kdmr_ATZFF2Ak_h16UvNKIc8sys4_u

Moderation. Everything we eat is bad for us if eaten excessively. It's not bad if we moderate it enough to where we can enjoy it and it won't cause detrimental effects to our health. Makes me remember when foods were utilized as rewards or made for special occasions. Remember when eating Steak was a formal affair, and a fancy meal. Now you can go anywhere and order a steak, you are free to eat as many as you want at Golden Corral, or other buffets.

It is interesting to note that when I went to some chinese buffets, they had a notice that said..."Only take what you can eat." And then one time I went to Azumas (a sushi place) and wanted some fried rice, and the Asian lady told me, "Its too much rice for you." And she walked away.

While I don't disagree with your comments on "moderation" I feel your post assumes everyone is overeating and yes this is certainly a problem but there is more to it the older we get. My wife really ballooned the past 10 years and come to find out, she's glucose intolerant. The Dr. prescribed  her Monjaro and she started losing the weight. She wasn't overeating or drinking too much, her body just started failing her. Why? Who knows, the Dr. doesn't tell you why, they just prescribe the drugs.

The amount of chemicals in processed foods is so prevalent that your intake of these chemicals is daily occurrence and over time is not really helping your body.

Harmony,
Look up a dude named Thomas Delauer. He's got a bunch of videos so I would be interested in your opinion.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think people need to be careful about fear mongering foods.  Unless you are sure that you understand the science or are listening to people who really do and have the credentials to back them up.

I think we all can agree that over consumption of sugar, no matter its form, is not a good idea.  And yet many of the same people who demonize HFCS use Agave and honey claiming these are superior because they are "natural" and yet they actually have higher fructose than HFCS.  Here is a clip with an attached source on the subject of HFCS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX0Vx1AxtC4

And seed oils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrfS0A3Zcww

Canola oil is 'rancid' claim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2e0AIG7VU&list=PLm_Kdmr_ATZFF2Ak_h16UvNKIc8sys4_u

Moderation. Everything we eat is bad for us if eaten excessively. It's not bad if we moderate it enough to where we can enjoy it and it won't cause detrimental effects to our health. Makes me remember when foods were utilized as rewards or made for special occasions. Remember when eating Steak was a formal affair, and a fancy meal. Now you can go anywhere and order a steak, you are free to eat as many as you want at Golden Corral, or other buffets.

It is interesting to note that when I went to some chinese buffets, they had a notice that said..."Only take what you can eat." And then one time I went to Azumas (a sushi place) and wanted some fried rice, and the Asian lady told me, "Its too much rice for you." And she walked away.

While I don't disagree with your comments on "moderation" I feel your post assumes everyone is overeating and yes this is certainly a problem but there is more to it the older we get. My wife really ballooned the past 10 years and come to find out, she's glucose intolerant. The Dr. prescribed  her Monjaro and she started losing the weight. She wasn't overeating or drinking too much, her body just started failing her. Why? Who knows, the Dr. doesn't tell you why, they just prescribe the drugs.

The amount of chemicals in processed foods is so prevalent that your intake of these chemicals is daily occurrence and over time is not really helping your body.

Harmony,
Look up a dude named Thomas Delauer. He's got a bunch of videos so I would be interested in your opinion.

Moderation doesn't necessarily mean overeating. Moderation is taking into account the amount of nutrients/chemicals your body doesn't need, or in your wife's case cannot tolerate. And I would be asking the doctor why, not assuming the doctor knows and will tell me, and I would also he hope he can work with me to find out why, rather than just prescribing me a pill for the pain.

It all comes down to knowing your own body, and actually seeing your doctor to find out what is wrong with your body. Such as your wife finding out she is Glucose Intolerant and now acting upon discovering what will happen if she eats Glucose. It's like me being a bit Lactose Intolerant and knowing full well if I drink a Hot Chocolate, I will be performing my bubble gut symphony. But Chocolate Milk and Hot Chocolate are so good, I will tolerate it because I desire that drink. And with onions, I don't really eat them because they make me burp a lot, and I also don't like the taste.

This is why I ask how many people actually have gone to their doctors and asked them about what nutrients they lack, what foods they might be allergic to, and what nutrients in the foods your body can not tolerate. All this can be due to genetics, and I also believe it has to do with environment. More so, what foods were ecologically growing around you. It's only been recently where humans have access to foods from across the world, when we would have had to travel there to gain access to it. Even at that, you may find your body can't tolerate those foods, yet the locals are munching on it like there's no tomorrow.

So if you were to understand Genetics and how your surrounding Ecology effects your body, I think we can understand a lot more about what foods are beneficial to our bodies. Such as why most of us Native Americans have lactose intolerant issues when we drink milk from a cow.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/06/lactose-intolerance-linked-ancestral-struggles-climate-diseases

[Harmony]

Harmony,
Look up a dude named Thomas Delauer. He's got a bunch of videos so I would be interested in your opinion.

Lots of red flags for me, TBH.  He calls himself a nutritionist.  This is essentially a meaningless term because there is no regulatory body that monitors this.  I can take an on-line course in a day and call myself a nutritionist.  That doesn't mean I know anything about nutrition.

I see a lot of fear mongering around food.  The only "bad" food is food you are allergic to or food that you shouldn't eat because of a medical condition.  For example, if someone has celiac disease, they should avoid gluten.  Oh and if you hate something...like I hate beets, then I would avoid that food.  I guess I'd add that I respect people who have dietary restrictions because of their religious beliefs.  But everything else can be worked into my diet in moderation.  Food is not inherently bad or good.  And I dislike people who fear monger food especially when they do not provide scientific data to back it up.  And from what I saw from Delauer, he does not provide science to back up his claims.  Huge red flags.

Personal beliefs now....I am not a fan of keto or IF.  Anyone can lose weight by cutting out an entire macronutrient.  Can the average person sustain this for the rest of their lives?  Carbohydrates serve very important functions in our bodies.  Our brains especially need carbohydrates to function.  Why do we need to cut out an entire macronutrient from our diet?  I had gestational diabetes and guess what?  I could still have carbs in moderation and nobody ever told me to cut them out completely.  Fruits are beneficial for us.  Whole grains are beneficial for us.  Fiber is beneficial for us.  Why would we avoid them?

Fasting is just another way to eat in a calorie deficit.  Again, why not just learn how to eat in a calorie deficit?  Why all these food rules that are not sustainable for the long term?  I see someone in Delauer who is pushing the latest trend in eating and is seemingly ignoring the basic building blocks of nutrition - likely because he doesn't have a strong background in basic nutrition, like a registered dietician would have.

And anyone who talks about "inflammation" just makes me roll my eyes.  When someone you know starts going on about inflammation ask them specifically what in their body is inflamed and how do they know that?  And how do they know a specific food is causing it?  The answer will be because some dude on TikTok or IG told them it does.  You know what causes inflammation in the body?  Exercise.  Seriously, look it up.  Do you think Delauer is going to give up exercising because it causes inflammation?  Of course not.

I could go on, but I think I will stop there.  Bottom line is that there are a lot of charlatans out there spreading misinformation.  It can be very difficult to weed through the crap and find the people who know the science.  But it is worth seeking out those who truly do.  Want some smart people to check out?

Zach Coen - RD
Dr. Idz
Layne Norton, PhD in Nutritional Sciences
Elaina Efird, RD
Luke Hanna, PT and nutritionist (who posts science based info)
AndyDoesHealthy, RD

And the current #1 nutrition podcast "Cut the Crap" with Beth Feraco and Matt Laar - they interview some of the best science backed folks I've ever found in one place (every Friday).  But with lots of F-bombs so not for the faint of heart.  No punches pulled.  Just facts backed up by evidence and zero bull shit.

[Harmony]

I'm all about self-responsibility, but there are so many factors a play in this topic, that I just don't want people feeling defeated by the discussion here.

Yeah, but it's still mostly self responsibility, and that's not political or religious to say that.

Yes, though as you say, lots of factors, sure.

I mean, the discussion has been pretty good. We seem to not want people to feel defeated by pointing out all of the other factors, absolving them of personal responsibility. It's like giving everyone something or someone else to blame.

I know people have differing degrees of challenges, but we have to stop making excuses for everyone too.

So I've been thinking about this post and how I want to answer it.  (Thank you, I like posts that make me think!)

But first, a question for you because I want to be sure I understand.  Do you believe that people who have struggled for years and are still struggling should be entitled to be considered by a licensed health care professional for use of fat loss medication?  And let's just assume that along with the prescription, they also receive proper education around diet and exercise.

FTR, I believe the discussion here has been pretty good.  I wasn't saying it was veering off into P/R territory.  I was trying to clarify about how posts are made rather than what the topic is.  Things can get heated in P/R easily.  Not that other areas of the board don't as well - sometimes they do.  I was meaning this can be a hot topic and push buttons for people (not you, I'm being general) so I was trying to consider the moderators and ask that people try and be respectful as possible.

I think we are doing a good job of that so far. 

[TAC]

But first, a question for you because I want to be sure I understand.  Do you believe that people who have struggled for years and are still struggling should be entitled to be considered by a licensed health care professional for use of fat loss medication?  And let's just assume that along with the prescription, they also receive proper education around diet and exercise.

Before I answer, let me ask you to clarify.. 


Define struggling.



I'm going to answer tomorrow because it's late, and I don't want to rush my thoughts.

[Harmony]

But first, a question for you because I want to be sure I understand.  Do you believe that people who have struggled for years and are still struggling should be entitled to be considered by a licensed health care professional for use of fat loss medication?  And let's just assume that along with the prescription, they also receive proper education around diet and exercise.

Before I answer, let me ask you to clarify.. 


Define struggling.

Well played sir, well played.   

And of course, you cut to the heart of it.  Struggling is a value judgment and I cannot determine for someone else if they are struggling.  But since we are talking about the medical field, I guess we could use parameters that perhaps an insurance company might.  So BMI (which I hate) in the obese category for a number of years.  Have previously been referred to RD or other nutrition education and completed that.  Verbalizes desire to make changes; appears motivated to follow through.  Perhaps has another health condition that may make the issue of weight loss more difficult, like a physical disability, or some other form of metabolic disease/disorder.  Someone with a history of an eating disorder or learning disability.  I'm sure if I had more time ATM I could make a case for people who struggle with depression or other major mental illness.  I heard a story the other day about a woman who lost a child 5 years ago and in her grief and depression turned to food for comfort and her weight ballooned up to the point she can't get a handle on it but very much wants to....is in therapy and working on her grief/loss issues.  If she could use medication to drop the first 50, perhaps that would be a big motivator to keep going, you know?

[TAC]

So, generally speaking, I am ok with medicinal help, but again, I'll respond more thoroughly tomorrow.

[XeRocks81]

whether someone is « struggling » or not they deserve to have the healthcare they require for their needs, whatever they look like. 

[Harmony]

whether someone is « struggling » or not they deserve to have the healthcare they require for their needs, whatever they look like.

Point taken.  But I was assuming that someone going to their doctor to request these medications would consider themselves struggling to lose weight.  Like someone struggling with their mood might go to their doctor to request an antidepressant.

I'd also say that over this past summer there was a shortage of Ozempic for diabetics because people were getting prescriptions to use it for weight loss - I'm talking people who just wanted to lose that last 20 pounds did this.  I don't believe that is an appropriate reason to prescribe this drug to people who aren't diabetic.

[TAC]

whether someone is « struggling » or not they deserve to have the healthcare they require for their needs, whatever they look like.

Did someone make a comment about how someone looks?

[wolfking]

I'll stay out of this one I think.  I think my views and way of thinking is a bit too harsh for this particular subject matter.

The only thing I will say is that I do think people who are 'struggling' quite possibly are are not being fully truthful to themselves.

[XeRocks81]

whether someone is « struggling » or not they deserve to have the healthcare they require for their needs, whatever they look like.

Point taken.  But I was assuming that someone going to their doctor to request these medications would consider themselves struggling to lose weight.  Like someone struggling with their mood might go to their doctor to request an antidepressant.

I'd also say that over this past summer there was a shortage of Ozempic for diabetics because people were getting prescriptions to use it for weight loss - I'm talking people who just wanted to lose that last 20 pounds did this.  I don't believe that is an appropriate reason to prescribe this drug to people who aren't diabetic.

and I’ll grant you i was making a more general point that wasn’t exactly related to what you guys were discussing here.  Didn’t mean to disrupt, sorry carry on 

[Stadler]

But first, a question for you because I want to be sure I understand.  Do you believe that people who have struggled for years and are still struggling should be entitled to be considered by a licensed health care professional for use of fat loss medication?  And let's just assume that along with the prescription, they also receive proper education around diet and exercise.

Before I answer, let me ask you to clarify.. 


Define struggling.

Well played sir, well played.   

And of course, you cut to the heart of it.  Struggling is a value judgment and I cannot determine for someone else if they are struggling.  But since we are talking about the medical field, I guess we could use parameters that perhaps an insurance company might.  So BMI (which I hate) in the obese category for a number of years.  Have previously been referred to RD or other nutrition education and completed that.  Verbalizes desire to make changes; appears motivated to follow through.  Perhaps has another health condition that may make the issue of weight loss more difficult, like a physical disability, or some other form of metabolic disease/disorder.  Someone with a history of an eating disorder or learning disability.  I'm sure if I had more time ATM I could make a case for people who struggle with depression or other major mental illness.  I heard a story the other day about a woman who lost a child 5 years ago and in her grief and depression turned to food for comfort and her weight ballooned up to the point she can't get a handle on it but very much wants to....is in therapy and working on her grief/loss issues.  If she could use medication to drop the first 50, perhaps that would be a big motivator to keep going, you know?

I probably shouldn't interrupt the dialogue between Harmony and TAC, but in case anyone cares, this highlights a problem I see in healthcare generally, but that seems to pop it's head up in the obesity column as frequently as anywhere else.  It's probably best described as my therapist put it (in a different context):  some people want to write a book.  Some people just want to say they wrote the book.   There's a difference there, and understanding that difference is part of resolving the struggle.   I don't really believe that anyone "deserves" anything in this world, and for me, the distinction between "want" and "need" in our society has been blurred almost as badly as the distinction between "tolerance" and "acceptance".  These contradictions don't have to be resolved at the societal level to fix obesity, but they do have to be addressed at the personal level by competent and objective professionals before any help will be effective.  If the medicines get to that place, then for me they are warranted.  If they are simply a way of saying "I wrote the book" without doing the hard work it takes to ACTUALLY WRITE a book, then no.  I want to repeat though (and why I feel these comments aren't really P/R) that those questions aren't for me - or my government - to answer on a case-by-case basis, it's for the specific person working with their chosen support group.