Obesity

[Harmony]

Good morning peeps.  I want to start a discussion about a touchy topic for a lot of people so please let's remember we are not in P&R and there are people here who struggle with obesity and other health conditions that make dealing with obesity very difficult.  So please, be kind.

I was watching the news last night and they did a story about new medications that are showing great promise for use in people who cannot seem to get a handle on their weight going the typical routes (diet, exercise, etc).  They interviewed a woman who had been taking the medication for a period of time and she had dropped enough weight to nearly reverse her hypertension and lower her A1C.  Then after her trial period on the drug was over, her insurance wouldn't cover it any longer and it became too cost prohibitive for her to afford (like over $1K/mo) and so she had to stop taking it.  Of course, her weight and health conditions are going right back to unhealthy again.

So here in the US, many drugs for health conditions are covered by insurance - meds for blood pressure, cholesterol, cancer, metabolic conditions, mental health conditions.  And yet drugs for obesity (including insulin for diabetic control) are out of control expensive.  Why is that?  Why would this country make medications that can significantly lower the cost of healthcare for people months or years down the line, that we know are safe and effective, and then price them out of the range for the average person AND insurance companies won't cover them?

And look, personally I'm not a fan of taking medication.  I am on one prescription and I don't even like taking that one.  I don't like the notion of throwing drugs at people that our healthcare industry tends to like to do instead of addressing underlying issues.  But 70% of Americans are overweight or obese and there are people who cannot get a handle on this merely through diet and exercise.  It seems rather discriminatory to me that a physician can recommend a treatment for a patient who fits into this diagnostic criteria and the patient cannot follow through with the recommended treatment because insurance companies refuse to make this treatment part of their formulary.  It is almost like we see this huge (pardon the pun) problem looming - the cost to care for obese patients in the next few decades is going to be astronomic - and we as a country aren't willing to do one small thing to attempt to mitigate it.  We can suck it up and pay a little more now or we can pay a helluva lot more later.  It seems like the choice has been made and it is the latter.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/new-weight-loss-drugs-effective-insurance-coverage-shortage-rcna32781

[King Postwhore]

This upcoming Tuesday, I've getting surgery for a stomach staple procedure.  I'm down 54 pound right now and by next year with the surgery, I'll be down 160 more. 

[cramx3]

If it's proven to be effective, I don't get why insurance wouldn't cover it.  I'm obese btw. I still feel pretty strongly that I can change and I've proven that I could in the past, for a time period (and that's always been my issue, staying that way). However, if medication legit works, it may be a great option for many including myself at some point.  I wonder what the side effects are.

[lordxizor]

So here in the US, many drugs for health conditions are covered by insurance - meds for blood pressure, cholesterol, cancer, metabolic conditions, mental health conditions.  And yet drugs for obesity (including insulin for diabetic control) are out of control expensive.  Why is that?  Why would this country make medications that can significantly lower the cost of healthcare for people months or years down the line, that we know are safe and effective, and then price them out of the range for the average person AND insurance companies won't cover them?

Because our medical system is largely geared to treat symptoms, not the underlying problem. Why take one drug to help you stop your obesity and fix all the problems that go along with that when you can take 14 drugs to lower your blood pressure, control your diabetes, and all of the host of other symptoms that come along with being obese.

I think a bigger part of it is that obesity is seen as a lifestyle disease that people should be able to solve just by having better willpower. Now, it is partly a lifestyle issue (at least getting obese in the first place, though genetics plays a large role there too), but we now know that it is very very difficult to keep weight off once you've lost it because our bodies sort of naturally want to go back to the higher weight.

[El Barto]

Fuck yeah, capitalism!!

(Just getting it out of the way early)

It's probably as simple as it's a new drug and therefore stupidly expensive, so the insurance companies don't want to go near it. When it becomes generic they will. As to the long term cost/benefit, it might be the case that they'd rather get out cheap now in the hopes that the expensive part never comes (ie: patient dies before needing more expensive treatment). The brutal logic makes sense. Why pay thousands a month to possibly stave off the massive heart attack that will get you off the hook. Consider my case. Medicare is thrilled to pay ~130k for a kidney transplant, because the cost of dialysis is roughly $72k/yr. The obesity drug might cost them that same $72k, but costs lessening as a result aren't guaranteed.

But hey, at least the wealthy don't have to wait weeks for elective surgery, like those socialist countries. 

[King Postwhore]

Weeks? A year El Barto.

[gmillerdrake]

Personally I think the weight/obesity issue in America falls directly in line with the crap the FDA has allowed these companies to use as ingredients. As we learn more and more about it.....these food companies are utter crooks and IMO simply evil. From obesity to the multitude of cancers that infest our culture now....it's all largely due to what we're ingesting and what we're ingesting is literally controlled by the government to keep us sick and fat to continue the fleecing of the general public.

That's not a tin foil hat take either....it's a truth that should have our entire population storming the Fu%king front doors of these corporations with pitchforks.

[hunnus2000]

Personally I think the weight/obesity issue in America falls directly in line with the crap the FDA has allowed these companies to use as ingredients. As we learn more and more about it.....these food companies are utter crooks and IMO simply evil. From obesity to the multitude of cancers that infest our culture now....it's all largely due to what we're ingesting and what we're ingesting is literally controlled by the government to keep us sick and fat to continue the fleecing of the general public.

That's not a tin foil hat take either....it's a truth that should have our entire population storming the Fu%king front doors of these corporations with pitchforks.

I completely agree! That and insurance companies denying coverage for simple procedures AND pharmaceutical companies charging outrageous prices for common drugs. I thought it was simple economics to charge your product in a way as to allow more people to buy it. My wife is insulin resistant and one of her drugs that helped was around 10K. Insurance paid and made it affordable but now they have stopped paying for it because there is a shortage and she is technically not diabetic but the medicine was helping prevent that.

But this is the problem in a for profit healthcare system. 

[Chino]

Personally I think the weight/obesity issue in America falls directly in line with the crap the FDA has allowed these companies to use as ingredients. As we learn more and more about it.....these food companies are utter crooks and IMO simply evil. From obesity to the multitude of cancers that infest our culture now....it's all largely due to what we're ingesting and what we're ingesting is literally controlled by the government to keep us sick and fat to continue the fleecing of the general public.

That's not a tin foil hat take either....it's a truth that should have our entire population storming the Fu%king front doors of these corporations with pitchforks.

That's just a small part of it. There are a number of factors at play. Another huge one being that we're just a sedentary people these days. I mean, if we were all really honest with ourselves, how much time do we spend per week just sitting and keeping ourselves entertained? It's a disgusting figure for many of us. I force myself to walk for 90-120 minutes per day and it's still probably just a fraction of what my grandparents and great parents did. I think about it all the time. Even with moving myself 6-10 miles per day, I'm still sitting or laying down for like 20 hours a day on average 5 or 6 days a week.

We don't burn enough calories anymore relative to the quantities of food we eat. Even if all the ingredients were pure, we eat insane amounts of food. My grandmother used to walk 2ish miles to work and be on her feet all day. Walking to lunch and whatever shopping she had to do before walking home. I sit in traffic an hour+ each way to sit a desk for 95% of my day.

I've had this "2000 calories a day" thing burned into my head my entire life, and I don't think most people burn through 2000 calories in a day these days. The only time I've ever been able to lose weight and keep it off is if I limit myself to about 1500 calories a day with exercise. I'm not up and about enough to justify the 2000.

[gmillerdrake]

Personally I think the weight/obesity issue in America falls directly in line with the crap the FDA has allowed these companies to use as ingredients. As we learn more and more about it.....these food companies are utter crooks and IMO simply evil. From obesity to the multitude of cancers that infest our culture now....it's all largely due to what we're ingesting and what we're ingesting is literally controlled by the government to keep us sick and fat to continue the fleecing of the general public.

That's not a tin foil hat take either....it's a truth that should have our entire population storming the Fu%king front doors of these corporations with pitchforks.

That's just a small part of it. There are a number of factors at play. Another huge one being that we're just a sedentary people these days. I mean, if we were all really honest with ourselves, how much time do we spend per week just sitting and keeping ourselves entertained? It's a disgusting figure for many of us. I force myself to walk for 90-120 minutes per day and it's still probably just a fraction of what my grandparents and great parents did. I think about it all the time. Even with moving myself 6-10 miles per day, I'm still sitting or laying down for like 20 hours a day on average 5 or 6 days a week.

We don't burn enough calories anymore relative to the quantities of food we eat. Even if all the ingredients were pure, we eat insane amounts of food. My grandmother used to walk 2ish miles to work and be on her feet all day. Walking to lunch and whatever shopping she had to do before walking home. I sit in traffic an hour+ each way to sit a desk for 95% of my day.

I've had this "2000 calories a day" thing burned into my head my entire life, and I don't think most people burn through 2000 calories in a day these days. The only time I've ever been able to lose weight and keep it off is if I limit myself to about 1500 calories a day with exercise. I'm not up and about enough to justify the 2000.

Yeah.....good point as well. I consider myself pretty active for a 47 year old guy and I still sit around a lot. Certainly it's a multi pronged issue but it's frustrating when you learn things like....take the spray on grease like PAM or whatever.....the propellant in those cans they use to spray the grease is F'n toxic as all hell.....I think I read that PAM's is butane. So you have this 'all natural' grease for your pots and pans yet it's mixed with and propelled by a toxic element. And I'm sure that is the case for hundreds of food items across the board.

[cramx3]

The food is a good point because the food tastes quite different in Europe and they also ban lots of things that we, Americans, are approved to eat.

[lordxizor]

The food is a good point because the food tastes quite different in Europe and they also ban lots of things that we, Americans, are approved to eat.

Not to mention the US version of most products has way more sugar than the EU version.

[Ben_Jamin]

Personally I think the weight/obesity issue in America falls directly in line with the crap the FDA has allowed these companies to use as ingredients. As we learn more and more about it.....these food companies are utter crooks and IMO simply evil. From obesity to the multitude of cancers that infest our culture now....it's all largely due to what we're ingesting and what we're ingesting is literally controlled by the government to keep us sick and fat to continue the fleecing of the general public.

That's not a tin foil hat take either....it's a truth that should have our entire population storming the Fu%king front doors of these corporations with pitchforks.

You hit the nail on the head by addressing Culture. The American culture is one of convenience and instantaneous results. Take Door Dash as an example, why get up and walk to your car and drive, or walk to the closest restaurant, when you can have it delivered to your door?

My issue with the Healthcare Industry is that it makes profit. Healthcare should not be an industry that makes profit. Healthcare should not even be an industry at all. Healthcare should be a concern of every human, and access to these things that do help us heal and remedy our illnesses should be easily available. Why should these products have a cost?

Why push a health product, when it's something we humans desire and need? We humans have been told how we can be healthy, but do we humans do it? Do we eat nutritious foods that give us essential nutrients our bodies need for sustenance? Do we follow the science that says eating nutritious foods, knowing what nutrients you are lacking, not eating excessive amounts of sugar, and exercising/walking can help you be healthy?

This is a habit and routine that needs to changed. And if we humans were to learn anything from this latest pandemic, Our habit and routines need to be changed. Because these very habits and routines are a cause to us becoming unhealthy and obese. Two major factors for why we became susceptible to it's wrath.

Why is that?  Why would this country make medications that can significantly lower the cost of healthcare for people months or years down the line, that we know are safe and effective, and then price them out of the range for the average person AND insurance companies won't cover them?

Why....Money of course. The world revolves around money, we humans currently can not survive without money. Money has become essential to human survival.

IF the governments and health industry actually cared for human health, they'd be giving these things out for free, without any need for financial gain or any sense of financial worth. Doctors and those who understand health science wouldn't be asking for money to help their patients. To make a living, these doctors and those who understand health science need to be paid.

This is the unfortunate reality and it will be until the day comes when money becomes worthless, and humans start doing things for others without any sort of reciprocation. If I help you around the house, I don't expect any form of payback, be it food, shelter, or any of these things, this is doing things out of the kindness of ones heart.

If you were to ask me, My suggestion would be to talk to your doctor and see a nutritionist to see what nutrients you are lacking or have an excess amount of, such as sugars. Lacking nutrients can cause many health issues, same with having excess amounts, such as sugar which leads to diabetes. And also, to see a therapist or find a trainer that will push you to stride, break out of your routine, and to help your mind mentally be able to adapt to this new lifestyle change. Because in the end, it's an entire lifestyle change to be healthy. It's not easy because of routine and the habits formed that made you unhealthy or obese.

[hunnus2000]

Every "BODY" is different regardless of culture. Some people are able to lose weight and stay in shape while others are unable to do the same yet we seem to make a binary judgement and apply it to every"body". I struggled for years with hypertension and thought I was eating healthy with chicken breasts as the main diet until I looked at the label, 300mg of sodium per 8 ounces of chicken breast. A little research showed that the FDA allowed these producers to brine and inject these chickens with seaweed so they can be plumper. The consumer pays for it at the register and that's why if you stir fry certain meats, they tend to boil in their own water and meanwhile you question why you have struggled with high blood pressure all these years.
Hell, they have been injecting high fructose corn syrup in all our products AND soybean oil AND we heat our dinner up in plastics which again affect our hormones.

It's not a black and white issue.

[Stadler]

Personally I think the weight/obesity issue in America falls directly in line with the crap the FDA has allowed these companies to use as ingredients. As we learn more and more about it.....these food companies are utter crooks and IMO simply evil. From obesity to the multitude of cancers that infest our culture now....it's all largely due to what we're ingesting and what we're ingesting is literally controlled by the government to keep us sick and fat to continue the fleecing of the general public.

That's not a tin foil hat take either....it's a truth that should have our entire population storming the Fu%king front doors of these corporations with pitchforks.

That's just a small part of it. There are a number of factors at play. Another huge one being that we're just a sedentary people these days. I mean, if we were all really honest with ourselves, how much time do we spend per week just sitting and keeping ourselves entertained? It's a disgusting figure for many of us. I force myself to walk for 90-120 minutes per day and it's still probably just a fraction of what my grandparents and great parents did. I think about it all the time. Even with moving myself 6-10 miles per day, I'm still sitting or laying down for like 20 hours a day on average 5 or 6 days a week.

We don't burn enough calories anymore relative to the quantities of food we eat. Even if all the ingredients were pure, we eat insane amounts of food. My grandmother used to walk 2ish miles to work and be on her feet all day. Walking to lunch and whatever shopping she had to do before walking home. I sit in traffic an hour+ each way to sit a desk for 95% of my day.

I've had this "2000 calories a day" thing burned into my head my entire life, and I don't think most people burn through 2000 calories in a day these days. The only time I've ever been able to lose weight and keep it off is if I limit myself to about 1500 calories a day with exercise. I'm not up and about enough to justify the 2000.

I think this is spot on.   Super size this and grande that.  Foot long this and X-treme that.  I do all the cooking at home and we use the "Hello Fresh", which tries to portion control, and basically my wife, who eats like a bird, is the only one to stick to the portions without complaining (I do, but it's a struggle to not eat again for the rest of the night).   I know my stepson - 15, 6'0" and about 280 - struggles MIGHTILY with portion control.  We are on top of what he eats at our house, but have zero control over what happens at school or at Dad's house. 

Those occasions we do eat out, almost every restaurant gives you enough for two whole meals with each serving. 

[Harmony]

It's not a black and white issue.

I agree with this.  Along with that statement, it also is not a one-size-fits-all solution, either.  We need all hands on deck here.  These new weight loss drugs can be a helpful tool toward making other beneficial changes for a patient.  Just like weight loss surgery (that said, not everyone qualifies for weight loss surgery and major surgery should not be a first choice option - nor should prescription drugs be).

Nutrition education is sorely lacking in our culture.  Someone on the thread even erroneously intimated that excessive sugar causes diabetes.  That is not true.  Diabetics should not consume excessive carbohydrates or sugar.  It is being overweight and obese that can lead to Type 2 diabetes.  This may stem from an over consumption of sugar in order to get to be obese, but it isn't as simple as "consuming sugar causes diabetes."

I also agree with the over-reliance on fast food and eating out most meals.  Why don't people know how to cook basic foods?  Why don't people know how to read labels?  Why don't people know how to menu plan?  Why don't people know how to shop in ways that stretch their dollars and yet keep their bodies fueled in a healthy way?  Everyone wants a quick weight loss fix - keto, intermittent fasting, weight watchers, Jenny Craig, Slim Fast, Atkins, Beach Body, and hundreds of other "programs" that promise the impossible to the gullible - all of these things are simply not sustainable in the long run.  What is needed is getting back to the basic, fundamental building blocks of nutrition.  Diet culture cost us 142 billion dollars in 2022 alone.  What would it be to funnel that money into basic nutrition education in schools?  Hell, what would it be to funnel that money into basic nutrition education in medical school.  Most doctors don't know shit about even basic nutrition.  People don't understand that someone calling themselves a "nutrition coach" or "nutritionist" doesn't mean shit.  These people claim to have an education but there are no requirements in order for any one of us to call ourselves a nutrition coach.  Yet time and time again, doctors rely on BMI (bullshit which was never intended to be a gage for a person's health) and refer to "weight loss clinics" where patients meet with uneducated "nutrition coaches" who are only interested in making money off their uneducated clients.

And bottom line is that all of this is going to cost us all more and more money down the line.  Capitalism sure...but nowhere is anyone really talking about prevention.  We changed the trajectory of lung cancer deaths by making smoking a public health emergency and holding tobacco companies accountable.  I don't know about any of you, but I rarely see people smoking cigarettes anymore.  We have the ability as a nation to make fighting obesity and the dozens of major disease factors that occur because of obesity a rarity too.  But we don't. And we won't give people a simple tool to fight back.  It is mind-boggling.

Anyone know who Henry Diltz is?  He was a pretty famous photographer in the 60s/70s music scene.  He posted some photos the other day of Mama Cass Elliot from the musical group The Mamas and the Papas.  She was considered the epitome of a very fat woman back then.  I'm looking at the photos now and I'm like, 'she looks like the majority of the population today'.  She doesn't seem fat at all in retrospect.  But back then she was unusual - like the fat lady at the circus.  Now, that is the majority of us.

 

[TAC]

  Why don't people know how to cook basic foods? 

One reason I believe is that I simply don't think they ever learned.

My parents didn't really cook, and I mean scratch cook. Everything was out of a box or a jar. Both of my parents worked.
My wife on the other hand who is a great scratch cook, learned it from her mother and grandmother.

This upcoming Tuesday, I've getting surgery for a stomach staple procedure.  I'm down 54 pound right now and by next year with the surgery, I'll be down 160 more. 

Joe, that 160 is a great goal. I know you know the first pounds to come off are the easiest. You won't drop 160 just because of the surgery.
I know three people that have had the surgery and 2 of them gained all of their weight back, and the third is halfway there.
Their eating habits and other issues were either never addressed, or have never changed.

I think a bigger part of it is that obesity is seen as a lifestyle disease that people should be able to solve just by having better willpower.

I think this may be a big part.

I worked with this huge (fat) guy that was diabetic. I'd watch him shoot insulin before he ate, and then he would proceed to stuff his face with a monstrosity of a meal. If I ran his insurance company, I'd cut his insulin off immedeately.

[King Postwhore]

Tim, I know this all ready. If I stick to what the nutritionist layer out I will lose 160 lbs. I all ready lost 52 pound. I know what needs to be done.

[TAC]

Tim, I know this all ready. If I stick to what the nutritionist layer out I will lose 160 lbs. I all ready lost 52 pound. I know what needs to be done.

Good.

[Harmony]

  Why don't people know how to cook basic foods? 

One reason I believe is that I simply don't think they ever learned.

My parents didn't really cook, and I mean scratch cook. Everything was out of a box or a jar. Both of my parents worked.
My wife on the other hand who is a great scratch cook, learned it from her mother and grandmother.

Oh I totally agree that children are not being taught by their parents who likely never learned from their parents.  This is a problem.  Once a generation loses that knowledge, it is gone for future generations.

Convenience foods may be part of the reason - but I wholeheartedly believe that families can rely on convenience (boxed or jarred) foods and still eat healthy.  But the average person doesn't even know what a healthy plate of food should look like - that half of your plate should be veggies, 1/4 protein, 1/4 carb.  I know people who lost over 100 pounds using this method alone - no calorie tracking, no weighing/measuring.  But our culture is obsessed with highly palatable foods - sugar, fat, salt - to the detriment of nutrient dense foods.  And fast food and restaurants cater to highly palatable foods.  So mom and dad can't cook - let's go out to eat - let's only get highly palatable food - let's wonder why our jeans don't fit anymore.

I say bring back home economics type classes.  We can call them something more exciting like, "Food Science 101" if that's less triggering for people.  Give kids the tools to learn how to cook, read labels, plan meals, etc.  And let's add some focus on exercise and movement and I bet we could move that needle a bit for the next generation.

Someone up there mentioned home delivery meals like Hello Fresh.  These can be quite a good place to start for people who don't know a damn thing about cooking.  I taught my kids basic cooking but TBH they never really enjoyed cooking until they got out on their own.  For one of them Hello Fresh has been a great way to learn the step by step process of following a recipe.  I know some of those meals can be pretty high in calories, but choosing carefully or splitting those meals into 2 meals can be a good way around that.

Hey King - are you working with a nutritionist or a registered dietician?  If he/she is a nutritionist do you know their credentials?  I'm just curious - not being critical of what you are doing.  Sounds like you are on a good trajectory and are feeling comfortable with the process.  Good for you - keep going! 

[cramx3]

Tim, I know this all ready. If I stick to what the nutritionist layer out I will lose 160 lbs. I all ready lost 52 pound. I know what needs to be done.

That's pretty impressive already even if the first pounds are easiest.  It's not easy to get started and to get in the right mind set.  You know what to do and are doing a great job already. Rooting for you.

[wolfking]

I'd like to share a bit of my story.  When I was a kid, being active wasn't a thing.  Once I picked up the guitar that was any sporting career or hobby gone for me.  I got fat and as a young adult my heaviest was around 118kg (260lbs).  Not the heaviest and I'm 6 foot 2 so it wasn't anything really out of the ordinary.  I can't exactly recall my lightbulb moment when I decided to lose weight but I knew at some point I had to get in shape.

Joining the gym was daunting but I took to it pretty quickly.  I had workmates that were gym guys so it was a natural process.  The exercise wasn't the hardest but the diet is something I still struggle with today.  It took years to really start losing weight and gaining some control.  Denial is real and it took me a long time to be finally true to myself in what I was eating and doing.  I was lying to myself for years.

Once I did face up, I went the extreme other way.  I pretty much gave myself an eating disorder.  I dropped all the way down to around 68kg (149 pounds) and still thought I was fat.  I would then take exercise to the extreme and cut food even more.  I went from one extreme to the other.  Eventually again, a lightbulb moment went off and I then tried to conquer more demons.  After more years and constant food battles I'm sitting at around 77kg (170 pounds).  I'm active as fuck now, gym 5 times a week and run everyday so not dropping weight is still hard but the mental demons I still have around food is sometimes extreme. I'd like to be around 80kg though I think as I'm pretty lean now.

I've had some crazy binges in my time and still ate pretty poorly for the most part.  But my activity level counteracted any weight gain, which was also another mindfuck.  I've tried to knuckle down again and looked at myself in the mirror once more and stop lying to myself on what I was doing this year.  After my accident last year, I let go and ate chocolate, ice cream, donuts and shit every day, cause I thought, why the fuck not, cause I'm alive.  Again, didn't gain weight so thought it was magic but this year, I've cut most the sugar and improved the quality of the food even more to try and enhance my athletic performance.  It's taken 20 years to get to the point that I'm at, and I still have demons I battle every day.  It's been a hard road and it's nowhere near over.

[TAC]

Wow, Kade..you've seen both extremes. From 260 to 149..that's quite a swing. Glad you're leveled out.

Even though I'm diabetic, I'm glad that I've never had food issues.

[Cool Chris]

This is a fascinating topic, coupled with some insightful posts, that have my thoughts swirling.

One thing that has been bothering me, as I think about this thread, is that I wonder if this is a problem we as a society even want to solve, either at the micro or macro level. People more eloquent than me have discussed why we might not want to, or care to, solve this on a macro level. But thinking about the individual, how many people are out there living with obesity, and just... don't care? Couple that with this new "everyone is healthy at any size" craze going around, I am not sure this is a problem that has a solution because we individually and collectively don't desire one.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Tim, I know this all ready. If I stick to what the nutritionist layer out I will lose 160 lbs. I all ready lost 52 pound. I know what needs to be done.

And this is key if you have issues managing your weight. Consult an actual nutritionist and make sure you lay out everything for them. Medical history, your daily diet, exercise routine, sleep schedule, work schedule, everything. Also working with them, and doing a bit of homework on various foods will go a long way.

[wolfking]

Wow, Kade..you've seen both extremes. From 260 to 149..that's quite a swing. Glad you're leveled out.

Even though I'm diabetic, I'm glad that I've never had food issues.

It's as big a drug any anything mate.  Be glad you've never have had food issues, trust me.

[wolfking]

Tim, I know this all ready. If I stick to what the nutritionist layer out I will lose 160 lbs. I all ready lost 52 pound. I know what needs to be done.

And this is key if you have issues managing your weight. Consult an actual nutritionist and make sure you lay out everything for them. Medical history, your daily diet, exercise routine, sleep schedule, work schedule, everything. Also working with them, and doing a bit of homework on various foods will go a long way.

This is one thing a bit controversial for me.  I've never seen a nutritionist or doctor about anything I've been through with food.  While I'm sure they know what they are doing, I'd rather be more in tune with myself and learn everything myself.  It took me a long time but I've gained control because I know a lot of the behind the scenes things when it comes to nutrition.  I learned the hard way but I'm glad I did as I gained more knowledge in the long run.

That's just speaking personally though, and I don't have any medical issues, that's a different story for people if you have real problems.

[Harmony]

I'd like to share a bit of my story.  When I was a kid, being active wasn't a thing.  Once I picked up the guitar that was any sporting career or hobby gone for me.  I got fat and as a young adult my heaviest was around 118kg (260lbs).  Not the heaviest and I'm 6 foot 2 so it wasn't anything really out of the ordinary.  I can't exactly recall my lightbulb moment when I decided to lose weight but I knew at some point I had to get in shape.

Joining the gym was daunting but I took to it pretty quickly.  I had workmates that were gym guys so it was a natural process.  The exercise wasn't the hardest but the diet is something I still struggle with today.  It took years to really start losing weight and gaining some control.  Denial is real and it took me a long time to be finally true to myself in what I was eating and doing.  I was lying to myself for years.

Once I did face up, I went the extreme other way.  I pretty much gave myself an eating disorder.  I dropped all the way down to around 68kg (149 pounds) and still thought I was fat.  I would then take exercise to the extreme and cut food even more.  I went from one extreme to the other.  Eventually again, a lightbulb moment went off and I then tried to conquer more demons.  After more years and constant food battles I'm sitting at around 77kg (170 pounds).  I'm active as fuck now, gym 5 times a week and run everyday so not dropping weight is still hard but the mental demons I still have around food is sometimes extreme. I'd like to be around 80kg though I think as I'm pretty lean now.

I've had some crazy binges in my time and still ate pretty poorly for the most part.  But my activity level counteracted any weight gain, which was also another mindfuck.  I've tried to knuckle down again and looked at myself in the mirror once more and stop lying to myself on what I was doing this year.  After my accident last year, I let go and ate chocolate, ice cream, donuts and shit every day, cause I thought, why the fuck not, cause I'm alive.  Again, didn't gain weight so thought it was magic but this year, I've cut most the sugar and improved the quality of the food even more to try and enhance my athletic performance.  It's taken 20 years to get to the point that I'm at, and I still have demons I battle every day.  It's been a hard road and it's nowhere near over.

Thanks for sharing this.  I can relate to the mindfuck aspect of diet culture, which includes the fitness industry of course.  I assume you have heard the adage that health and fat loss is 90% diet and 10% physical exercise?  And the other one being, "You can't outrun a poor diet."  I think the thing is that these actions are easier when we are younger.  Our bodies can withstand so much more stress with physical training and exercise and forgive those binges but as we age, not so much.  I know I've been working out (weight lifting and walking) 5-6 days a week for just over a month (previously it was 3-4 days a week) and I am still struggling with DOMS and minor aches and pains every day.  It is getting better and I'm hoping that it will ease completely.  I mean, I know I should feel my muscles fatigue on the days I lift, but being in constant pain or discomfort is not what I enjoy.

Back the mindfuck of it all - orthorexia is a thing.  And it sounds like you struggled with that when your weight dropped so low.  I have a dear friend who has twins who are teenagers and they are all morbidly obese in that family except one of the twins decided to "do something about it" and wound up in the hospital for over a week because he just stopped eating and hydrating and it fucked up his electrolytes so badly that his heart went into arrhythmia and he passed out at school.  His family had no idea he was starving himself.  Now he is in an eating disorder clinic.  It is all so sad, the pressure that society has on us to look a certain way, to be a certain weight and yet not give us any useful tools on how to slowly and carefully adopt healthier choices.  It has to be quick fixes and extreme measures.

I know that I'm very much struggling with weighing myself every day.  My coach wants me to do this because of my mindset more than because of my actual weight patterns.  Cognitively I know that our weight can fluctuate drastically day to day for numerous reasons.  My coach says (and has shown me) that even within these day to day fluctuations, when we put in the time and effort the trends almost always go down.  And if they don't then we collect the data and make some minor adjustments.  When we weigh ourselves only weekly or monthly, if we hit one of the up days, then it gets defeating and we want to give up (this is me).  Here is the example he sent me - this is not my data:



Like I said, this makes sense to my brain but when I step on the scale and it goes up instead of down, it really REALLY messes with my head.  Especially if I have been so diligent with my work outs and my food intake.  I honestly think it is the years and years of diet culture.  Weight Watchers - first thing you do is weigh in.  Jenny Craig - first thing you do is weigh in.  Doctor's appointments - first thing you do is weigh in.  And in every case, that number is the data point that everything else is gaged by.  I'm trying to make this mental shift and I'm really struggling.  But I'm not giving up, because I've come too far since July and I'm seeing progress in literally every way.  But this one thing continues to be my nemesis.

One other thing that I have really enjoyed about these past few months though - because I want to end on a positive note here.  Is that I have fully embraced the notion that there is no "bad" food.  That everything I enjoy can continue to be enjoyed and I can do this guilt free.  Allowing myself a glass of wine, or a piece of chocolate, or a small bag of chips within my daily goal has stopped my cycle of binging in the evening.  Well, that and protein loading my breakfast and lunch.  Once I realized that I could have what I wanted whenever I wanted (maybe not as much as I want, but that's another issue) and work it in, certain foods became way less tempting to me.  This phenomenon has been described to me as going from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset.  When your brain thinks you aren't going to be able to enjoy foods you love, your brain tells you that when you finally get access to it, you must gobble it down quickly.  When your brain knows you can eat the foods you enjoy, and those foods are available, your brain tells you that you don't need to binge on it, because it will always be available to you when you want.

I hope people continue to use this thread to talk about issues related to obesity and/or struggles with eating patterns.  I feel like we can learn from each other and support one another.   

I also want to address the point Chris brought up.  I think you are spot on.  I think there are a lot of people who don't care.  And I think that is their prerogative.  I'm in my 50s and there have been times in my life where I didn't fucking care either.  But the thing about it is that for a majority of these people, some time in their future their obesity is going to become a real life problem for them.  They will suffer a health condition that wakes them up.  Or they will see a loved one suffer a health condition that wakes them up.  Sure some will just continue on without making changes, but many will come to the idea that they need to do "something."  My issue is where do they get their information from when they do decide to do "something."  Will it be from some predatory diet industry bullshit promising them they can lose 20 pounds in 2 weeks if they just drink a shake 3 times a day?  Or will it be coming from a science-backed knowledge base that emphasizes making slow but healthy changes gradually over time that evidence shows makes more differences long term than any quick fix ever could?

[MinistroRaven]

IDK the name of the medicine mentioned in the OP. But I've heard about Mark Cuban and his drug company, maybe you guys should check if it is available there:

https://costplusdrugs.com/

[wolfking]

Harmony mentioned Orthorexia.  I had to google that.  I definitely didn't have that, I was just eating as little as possible.  Unless you meant anorexia which I was definitely borderline.  Awful about your friend.  I'm glad I had the awareness myself to realise and do something about it.

Harmony, I'm not that keen on the advice to weigh in everyday, I personally don't think that's wise.  My turning point was when I stopped obsessing over numbers and stripped it back and stopped weighing in each day.  Eat well and don't overdo it, and train hard, that's it.  I shifted my focus away from counting and watching numbers and got myself fit.  I focussed on my fitness and performance more.  Built more of a foundation which made things easier.

Focus on the clothes sizes too as opposed to the scale numbers everyday. 

[TAC]

I'm not that keen on the advice to weigh in everyday, I personally don't think that's wise.  My turning point was when I stopped obsessing over numbers and stripped it back and stopped weighing in each day.  Eat well and don't overdo it, and train hard, that's it.  I shifted my focus away from counting and watching numbers and got myself fit.  I focussed on my fitness and performance more.  Built more of a foundation which made things easier.

I agree. It’s like watching the stock market daily. Way too many ups and downs. I feel like needing a daily affirmation is how some people get in this position in the first place.

It’s not about numbers. It’s about habits.

[chknptpie]

I wish clothes sizes worked but unfortunately womens sizes are completely arbitrary and mean nothing. In one brand I'm a size 4, in another I'm a size 10. Fucking bonkers.

[Harmony]

It’s not about numbers. It’s about habits.

And that is exactly why my coach wants me to weigh every day.  I'm probably not explaining this correctly but he is trying to desensitize me to that number.  Like someone who has a fear of spiders can gradually be desensitized to being in a room with them, then seeing them crawl, then touching them, then holding them.  Over time, the spiders lose their power.

I talked to my behavioral coach about it this morning.  She is supportive in me going either way.  But I know that eventually, I am going to need to deal with this one parameter holding all the power for me.  I have had so many other wins this week - loss of inches, fitting into jeans I haven't worn since before the pandemic.  I have all of these non-scale pieces of evidence that what I'm doing is working.  Why am I letting one piece of evidence - pardon the pun - carry more weight in my mind than another?  I feel like I just need to let go and trust that my coaches know what they are doing and stop trying to be "perfect" or control everything.  I have much more to ponder over this and it helps writing it out here, so thanks for the feedback.

And chknptpie, I hear you on that.  If I let a clothing size dictate my "success" I'd be in big fucking trouble!  LoL

[lonestar]

Just want to double down on a few points...first Gary has a definite point about how our food is so fucking overprocessed, especially with the proliferation of HFCS. My addiction counselors says it's as bad for your liver and pancreas as alcohol, which is fucking frightening with how it's in everything. We definitely need to cook more, and have home cooking become a part of our daily lives, which it isn't these days. It doesn't even need to be organic/natural/insert token bullshit term here, it just needs to be a dead animal or plant processed in a delicious manner without all the bullshit corporate food companies put into it.

Chino has a solid point about how sedentary our lives have become. I've always been convinced that if it wasn't for my occupation, if I had a desk job, I'd be severely obese. No doubt about that. I know how I ate, and how I'd pack a shit ton of booze on top of that, and it's only the fact that my job averages 25k steps a day that saved me.

It didn't save me completely though, somewhere between my constant fast food and alcoholism, my pancreas is shit now, and I got a pretty solid case of type 2 diabetes, all which are markers of obesity with the exception that I'm only 25# over my ideal weight. I'm hoping my new workout regimen will get that under control, I've already dropped my blood sugar average by 50-75pts, and I've dropped ten pounds.

[wolfking]

I wish clothes sizes worked but unfortunately womens sizes are completely arbitrary and mean nothing. In one brand I'm a size 4, in another I'm a size 10. Fucking bonkers.

I mean the clothes you already wear.  You'd know when your regular pair of jeans or shirt don't fit anymore and become too big.  The size of new clothes you buy isn't relevant here, it's the ones you are already in.

I'm not that keen on the advice to weigh in everyday, I personally don't think that's wise.  My turning point was when I stopped obsessing over numbers and stripped it back and stopped weighing in each day.  Eat well and don't overdo it, and train hard, that's it.  I shifted my focus away from counting and watching numbers and got myself fit.  I focussed on my fitness and performance more.  Built more of a foundation which made things easier.

I agree. It’s like watching the stock market daily. Way too many ups and downs. I feel like needing a daily affirmation is how some people get in this position in the first place.

It’s not about numbers. It’s about habits.

This is 100% correct. 

It’s not about numbers. It’s about habits.

And that is exactly why my coach wants me to weigh every day.  I'm probably not explaining this correctly but he is trying to desensitize me to that number.  Like someone who has a fear of spiders can gradually be desensitized to being in a room with them, then seeing them crawl, then touching them, then holding them.  Over time, the spiders lose their power.

I talked to my behavioral coach about it this morning.  She is supportive in me going either way.  But I know that eventually, I am going to need to deal with this one parameter holding all the power for me.  I have had so many other wins this week - loss of inches, fitting into jeans I haven't worn since before the pandemic.  I have all of these non-scale pieces of evidence that what I'm doing is working.  Why am I letting one piece of evidence - pardon the pun - carry more weight in my mind than another? I feel like I just need to let go and trust that my coaches know what they are doing and stop trying to be "perfect" or control everything.  I have much more to ponder over this and it helps writing it out here, so thanks for the feedback.

And chknptpie, I hear you on that.  If I let a clothing size dictate my "success" I'd be in big fucking trouble!  LoL

No offense, but I just hate this kind of thinking.  Each to their own but as I said earlier, no one really knows you and your body like you do.  I'd recommend trying to take things into your own hands a little more and try and learn.  I think people get coaches to do the work for them instead of trying to work things out themselves.  Be mindful and in tune with yourself and you'll get there.  You want to trust he knows what he is doing, what if he doesn't?  It's great you're losing inches, so regardless what you are doing is working.  As I said, some people need the assistance, but at least understand the processes yourself and how you are getting to these points in your journey.  I think that's the big thing.

I don't like the practice he's telling you to do, but who am I to judge.  I understand the theory but deep down even if you are trying to desensitise, the number will still subconsciously sit in the back of your mind.   You are making progress however, so keep it up.