The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Announces Nominees for 2023 Induction

[HOF]

I used the use the metric of "I should know at least two of your songs to qualify" which would eliminate:

Kate Bush
Sheryl Crow
Missy Elliott
Rage Against the Machine
The Spinners
A Tribe Called Quest
The White Stripes

There's a video on YouTube of Kate Bush performing with David Gilmour, and the top comment is: "Two legends coming together for a moment of blessing. Absolutely biblical!" Are we really putting Kate Bush in the "legend" status with Gilmour?

That's our culture; we can't just say "we like something" or "I think this is good".  We've GOT to assign absolutes to everything.  There's no room for just "good" or "average" or whatever.   I think it's a drastic stretch to include Kate Bush in the category of "legend".  That's not saying she's not good, or didn't put out some very good music.

I dunno, Bush is really a remarkable artist. Her voice alone is pretty legendary (no one else quite sounds like her or does what she does/did). Just considering how young she was when she debuted, how she was pretty much self-made in terms of writing her own music and bringing her artistic vision to bear, and then she has kind of a mystique about her just from how she’s kept a lower profile over the years. I think she was a real pioneer in terms of female artists.

I am only recently and still more casually a fan, but she’s an artist who I’ve always heard about as being well-admired in certain circles. I bet Gilmour would even call her a legend (he was responsible for giving her her start in music).

To be fair, in some circles, she IS considered a legend.  Maybe you just clicked on a video made by someone in one of those circles.

In some circles, Dream Theater are considered legends.  Would I say that they are in all circumstances?  No.  But I can see how some people could describe them that way under some circumstances.

Yep, pretty much this.

[soupytwist]

Kate Bush is a legend in the UK for sure.

[nobloodyname]

I don't like her music but yes, Kate Bush is a genuine legend.

[HOF]

Kate Bush is a legend in the UK for sure.

Yeah, this is probably a part of the disconnect. She didn’t have the same impact in the states.

[Stadler]

To be fair, in some circles, she IS considered a legend.  Maybe you just clicked on a video made by someone in one of those circles.

In some circles, Dream Theater are considered legends.  Would I say that they are in all circumstances?  No.  But I can see how some people could describe them that way under some circumstances.

Now you're getting to the essence of a "Hall Of Fame".   In most conventional uses of that term, like Canton or Cooperstown, it's when a player or person gets to be considered a "legend" in MOST or ALL circles, not "some circles".   I'm very aware of Kate Bush, and maybe I'm not being fair about her status, but she's certainly not at the level of David Gilmour or his ilk (he's had a long association with her; I think he produced her first album or some demo tapes or something early on in her career).

[Cool Chris]

To be fair, in some circles, she IS considered a legend.  Maybe you just clicked on a video made by someone in one of those circles.

In some circles, Dream Theater are considered legends.  Would I say that they are in all circumstances?  No.  But I can see how some people could describe them that way under some circumstances.

Now you're getting to the essence of a "Hall Of Fame".   In most conventional uses of that term, like Canton or Cooperstown, it's when a player or person gets to be considered a "legend" in MOST or ALL circles, not "some circles". 

That addresses what I was trying to say.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, but if those are the only people who get in, what's the point?  They don't need a Hall of Fame.  Everyone already knows all of those people, and they would be considered in their rarified air without the Hall placement.  And the number of people that EVERYONE or MOST consider to be legends is tiny.  You wouldn't need a Hall of Fame, you could get by with a Closet of Fame.

The point of any Hall of Fame is the people that wouldn't be unanimous selections.  Those are the ones that people can learn about, and explore their careers.  I don't need to listen to Pink Floyd's discography again to know that David Gilmour is a legend.  But I'm not all that knowledgeable about the Spinners, so if they have been nominated for the Hall, it must be for some reason, so I may start exploring their output.

[Cool Chris]

In sports threads I have said my bar is higher than most. But I recognize that is just this one guy's opinion. You make some good points I also concede.

[jammindude]

I think that in any HOF (sports, music, or otherwise) a certain level of “industry notoriety” or “level of influence” needs to be considered over just public fame.

[pg1067]

I think that in any HOF (sports, music, or otherwise) a certain level of “industry notoriety” or “level of influence” needs to be considered over just public fame.

Of course, then you have the likes of Laura Nyro, who still has me scratching my head 11 years later.

[cfmoran13]

Kate Bush is a legend in the UK for sure.

So is Ultravox.  But, I don't see them getting into the RARHOF anytime soon.  I'm sure she's also a RS darling.  So, she'll get in.

[DragonAttack]

Well, when it comes to rock n roll, Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson are two names that instantly come to mind.........

[soupytwist]

Kate Bush is a legend in the UK for sure.

So is Ultravox.  But, I don't see them getting into the RARHOF anytime soon.  I'm sure she's also a RS darling.  So, she'll get in.

Not really, no.

[Stadler]

Yeah, but if those are the only people who get in, what's the point?  They don't need a Hall of Fame.  Everyone already knows all of those people, and they would be considered in their rarified air without the Hall placement.  And the number of people that EVERYONE or MOST consider to be legends is tiny.  You wouldn't need a Hall of Fame, you could get by with a Closet of Fame.

The point of any Hall of Fame is the people that wouldn't be unanimous selections.  Those are the ones that people can learn about, and explore their careers.  I don't need to listen to Pink Floyd's discography again to know that David Gilmour is a legend.  But I'm not all that knowledgeable about the Spinners, so if they have been nominated for the Hall, it must be for some reason, so I may start exploring their output.

I think you make an unintended leap from the first paragraph to the second.  There ARE people that don't know Floyd.  YOU DO, but not everyone, even if the majority of people know they are rock royalty.  The purpose of a Hall isn't to get people like you and me to be more familiar with mid-tier artists. We can do that other ways.   The purpose is to identify and celebrate that rarified air you speak of.

And even if you are right, then at least make sure the "rarified air" is used up before you start to celebrate the mid-tier artists.  That Kate Bush might be in before Ronnie Did, or Robert Fripp, (who both basically single-handedly started entire genres) or Phil Collins is putting the cart before the horse.

[soupytwist]

Not really sure why Kate is getting it in the neck here when Cyndi Lauper is also on that list.   I mean comparing Kate to Cyndi is like comparing the best Aberdeen Angus Steak to a Happy Meal. 

[hefdaddy42]

That Kate Bush might be in before Ronnie Did, or Robert Fripp, (who both basically single-handedly started entire genres) or Phil Collins is putting the cart before the horse.

Well, to YOU it is.  But you are not the only arbiter of who can and should be admitted.

Besides, Collins is in (with Genesis).  Not sure that as a solo artist he was all that innovative.  He definitely made some good music, and I love a lot of his solo output, but I definitely feel that his participation in Genesis is what makes him HOF-worthy, not Sussudio.

But to my point, that's MY opinion.  Which is not hard fact, it's just my thoughts.

[Stadler]

That Kate Bush might be in before Ronnie Did, or Robert Fripp, (who both basically single-handedly started entire genres) or Phil Collins is putting the cart before the horse.

Well, to YOU it is.  But you are not the only arbiter of who can and should be admitted.

Besides, Collins is in (with Genesis).  Not sure that as a solo artist he was all that innovative.  He definitely made some good music, and I love a lot of his solo output, but I definitely feel that his participation in Genesis is what makes him HOF-worthy, not Sussudio.

But to my point, that's MY opinion.  Which is not hard fact, it's just my thoughts.

And I'm not saying that I have any more say than anyone else. I'm just pointing out inconsistencies, is all.  Phil Collins is one of three artists to have sold 100 million records solo and with a band.  The other two - McCartney and Jackson - are in.  Just sayin'.   

[hefdaddy42]

And that's fine, if it's just a popularity contest (which is what sales numbers amount to).

I would say that there is a world of difference between McCartney and Jackson on one hand, and Collins on the other.  But again, that's just my opinion.

[HOF]

I also don’t think it is relevant to Kate’s case if other more deserving artists are in or not. Phil Collins isn’t on the ballot for whatever reason. Her case should be judged on her own merits, not on what wrongs may or not have been done to other artists.

[SoundscapeMN]

Phil Collins was innovative with the gated snare sound he captured originally on Intruder, but more famously, on In the Air Tonight.

[Lethean]

I'm not really familiar with Kate Bush but I don't have an issue with her being in at all.  It makes more sense to me than a lot of other inductees.

[Stadler]

I also don’t think it is relevant to Kate’s case if other more deserving artists are in or not. Phil Collins isn’t on the ballot for whatever reason. Her case should be judged on her own merits, not on what wrongs may or not have been done to other artists.

That's not an unfair statement. It's not her fault that the Hall sucks (and I say that to be funny, not make a statement). 

[Dream Team]

Maybe Dolly's trying for more rock cred, she just recorded a redo of Magic Man with Ann Wilson including an added verse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jOsJMGBEfk

[pg1067]

She also did a song with Rob Halford.  I think she said that, if they were going to induct her into the RRHOF, she ought to do a rock album.

[EPICVIEW]

NO THIN LIZZY      NO PEACE

[El Barto]

NO THIN LIZZY      NO PEACE

Knowing them they'd probably include Eric Bell and Scott Robertson while omitting Gorham, Moore, and Skykes. 

[TAC]

NO THIN LIZZY      NO PEACE

Knowing them they'd probably include Eric Bell and Scott Robertson while omitting Gorham, Moore, and Skykes. 

Brian Robertson.

Gorham wouldn't be omitted, but I'm sure Snowy White would.

[El Barto]

NO THIN LIZZY      NO PEACE

Knowing them they'd probably include Eric Bell and Scott Robertson while omitting Gorham, Moore, and Skykes. 

Brian Robertson.

Gorham wouldn't be omitted, but I'm sure Snowy White would.

Hell, I didn't even include Snowy. 

[LithoJazzoSphere]

She also did a song with Rob Halford.  I think she said that, if they were going to induct her into the RRHOF, she ought to do a rock album.

I heard that song and now I'm convinced that we have to be living in a simulation, and someone at the controls is just starting to mash buttons. 

[hefdaddy42]

She also did a song with Rob Halford.  I think she said that, if they were going to induct her into the RRHOF, she ought to do a rock album.

I heard that song and now I'm convinced that we have to be living in a simulation, and someone at the controls is just starting to mash buttons.

I don't know.  I didn't hate it.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

It seemed ok, just the fact that it exists is mind-blowing. 

[Orbert]

I guess I don't understand why people are so amazed that artists would do things outside of the genres that they're normally associated with.  I think it's great.  Some years back, David Lee Roth did a version of "Jump" with a bluegrass ensemble.  People laughed, literally thought it was a joke; I thought it was awesome.  Dolly is a very talented singer.  If she wants to rock out, more power to her.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

I don't have a problem with it, but the frequency with which it happens is way more common now than it used to be, and some styles are further apart than others.  If you'd gone to a show when Priest toured for Painkiller and told fans there that in a number of years that Priest would make a guest appearance on a pop star talent competition show judged by the former bass player of Journey and Whitney Houston, and a number of years after that that Rob and Dolly would do a duet, I'm pretty sure you'd have gotten a variety of odd reactions. 

And if Corpsegrinder and Enya do a collab next...

[KevShmev]

I don't have a problem with it, but the frequency with which it happens is way more common now than it used to be, and some styles are further apart than others.  If you'd gone to a show when Priest toured for Painkiller and told fans there that in a number of years that Priest would make a guest appearance on a pop star talent competition show judged by the former bass player of Journey and Whitney Houston, and a number of years after that that Rob and Dolly would do a duet, I'm pretty sure you'd have gotten a variety of odd reactions. 

That probably says more about old school metal fans in general than anything else.  "Give me metal or give me death, and MY metal bands better not EVER do anything but metal!!"

[EPICVIEW]

NO THIN LIZZY      NO PEACE

Knowing them they'd probably include Eric Bell and Scott Robertson while omitting Gorham, Moore, and Skykes. 

Brian Robertson.

Gorham wouldn't be omitted, but I'm sure Snowy White would.

I lost all respect for the RRHOF with them not putting Thin Lizzy in considering how they basically created Metal in their hard rock formation,,,,  Metallica would agree : )