LithoJazzoSphere Roulette V1: Variety & Reciprocity (Post-Roulette Playlist)

[Evermind]

dacul, i don't know how to tell you that i don't care about any julia holter albums besides have you in my wilderness

I tried that album a couple of years ago and that was it for my Julia Holter discovery phase, I remember I gave it one spin and didn't like it I don't even remember what I didn't like, I should maybe spin it again.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

This might be my favorite part of roulettes. 

[SoundscapeMN]

Beach House - Myth

[Crow]

dacul, i don't know how to tell you that i don't care about any julia holter albums besides have you in my wilderness

I tried that album a couple of years ago and that was it for my Julia Holter discovery phase, I remember I gave it one spin and didn't like it I don't even remember what I didn't like, I should maybe spin it again.

i can't imagine it's your thing but then again it's been like twenty years since your last roulette so idk what evermind-core is anymore

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Ok, still being relatively new to these roulettes, I'm coming across a dilemma, which might have affected some past rounds slightly, but could affect this round more, as well as future ones, so I want to put it on the table now.  Most of the songs I receive are studio versions, but a few are live recordings.  Obviously sometimes there are no live recordings (or only ones recorded on cell phones), and while they haven't come up in this roulette, I know there are songs with only live recordings and no studio versions.  When I'm doing research, I will often find the other that you didn't send (a live or a studio recording) and listen to it for context if it's available, but it doesn't directly impact my score for the song. 

If you've read many of my writeups, you've probably noticed I tend to like a lot of the production details you sometimes find in a studio recording and often are absent in live recordings.  This can make more of a difference for me than the average DTF member, I suspect.  But also, sometimes there's something different about the studio vs. live recordings that can be even more substantial, like a different arrangement, different special guests and such, which can really shift how the song comes across.  The Greg Herriges song a few rounds ago was a perfect example of this. 

So I'm trying to decide what's fair now.  I'm wondering if I should have an ongoing rule starting next round that if there is a studio and a live version that I notice (or you point out to me), I will listen to both and pick the one I like better.  I don't think I can retroactively apply this rule to this or prior rounds and be fair, because it might have changed what songs or performances other people sent.

Any thoughts on the matter?  I don't know how this has been handled in previous roulettes (surely it's come up?  I can't be that idiosyncratic, can I?).  I know some have specifically had rounds geared towards live versions of songs, but it can affect any song.  This might be a consequence of me trying to learn more about the artist/song than average, but I surely can't be the first to have this concern. 

[Lethean]

Shouldn't it just be the version that the person sends you?  If I really wanted you to score based on the live version, that's what I'd send in the first place.  But if you do listen to it and like it better, I don't see why you couldn't use it.

In my roulette I did that once- heard the live version and really liked it so I kind of just abandoned the studio version.  Since that song won the round, I don't think the sender (Stadler) minded.  

[Buddyhunter1]

Sent for the next round early. Check your email for the reason why

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Shouldn't it just be the version that the person sends you?  If I really wanted you to score based on the live version, that's what I'd send in the first place.  But if you do listen to it and like it better, I don't see why you couldn't use it.

In my roulette I did that once- heard the live version and really liked it so I kind of just abandoned the studio version.  Since that song won the round, I don't think the sender (Stadler) minded.  

It's curious that you say that, since yours in round 2 was actually the first time I noticed this could be an issue, because the first link you sent me was to a live version, and we talked about that via PM, and you said to go with the studio version instead.  I'm not sure that particular example would have made a difference, they were similar enough.  Sacul's Converge submission last round is what started making me second guess this, because it's possible given more listens I might have preferred the '16 Roadburn version of "Jane Doe".  But this round, while it's still early, I've found at least one where the version sent might be inferior (at least for my tastes) to the opposite (studio/live), so I want to get ahead of this before it bugs me even more. 

And this doesn't even get into submissions where people don't even send links, they just tell me the artist and song.  That's generally not a huge deal, but sometimes songs are rerecorded, and some people who are true audiophiles and even nitpickier than me will have massive preferences for particular remasters from specific years and such (that has already come up, but the difference was subtle enough for me not to care). 

[HOF]

I’d say grade the version people send you and don’t make extra work for yourself. :-)

[Lethean]

Mine was just a screw up, but as you said I don't think the versions are all that different anyway.   I just didn't look too closely at the youtube video and it didn't say live so it never crossed my mind.

If you had scored it on the live version it would have been my own fault so I wouldn't have been upset.

And I don't think anyone would be upset if you decide to seek out live versions on your own and pick the version you like most.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Hmm, contradictory opinions so far...

I’d say grade the version people send you and don’t make extra work for yourself. :-)

The extra work is part of the fun though.  While I'm perfectly fine with just receiving isolated cool songs, I also have an eye towards what artists would be worth diving more deeply into their other work, and also find connections they have to other artists I'm familiar with that enrich and enlarge my mental music map. 

[TAC]

Ok, still being relatively new to these roulettes, I'm coming across a dilemma, which might have affected some past rounds slightly, but could affect this round more, as well as future ones, so I want to put it on the table now.  Most of the songs I receive are studio versions, but a few are live recordings.  Obviously sometimes there are no live recordings (or only ones recorded on cell phones), and while they haven't come up in this roulette, I know there are songs with only live recordings and no studio versions.  When I'm doing research, I will often find the other that you didn't send (a live or a studio recording) and listen to it for context if it's available, but it doesn't directly impact my score for the song. 

If you've read many of my writeups, you've probably noticed I tend to like a lot of the production details you sometimes find in a studio recording and often are absent in live recordings.  This can make more of a difference for me than the average DTF member, I suspect.  But also, sometimes there's something different about the studio vs. live recordings that can be even more substantial, like a different arrangement, different special guests and such, which can really shift how the song comes across.  The Greg Herriges song a few rounds ago was a perfect example of this. 

So I'm trying to decide what's fair now.  I'm wondering if I should have an ongoing rule starting next round that if there is a studio and a live version that I notice (or you point out to me), I will listen to both and pick the one I like better.  I don't think I can retroactively apply this rule to this or prior rounds and be fair, because it might have changed what songs or performances other people sent.

Any thoughts on the matter?  I don't know how this has been handled in previous roulettes (surely it's come up?  I can't be that idiosyncratic, can I?).  I know some have specifically had rounds geared towards live versions of songs, but it can affect any song.  This might be a consequence of me trying to learn more about the artist/song than average, but I surely can't be the first to have this concern.

Overthinking things again? 

I'm not aware of it ever coming up.

In my last roulette, in the Devin Townsend Round, I got the Studio and Live version of Kingdom. I'm pretty sure I scored them the same.

In my first roulette, I actually had a Live Round, and all people did was bitch about it.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Overthinking things again? 

You're damn right I am.    I'm just trying to be as fair and reasonable as I can be, and I fear some people are shooting themselves in the foot because they don't understand some of my listening quirks.     I'm hosting this roulette, but I'm not a dictator, so I'm open to ideas and suggestions.  There are a lot of roulette conventions people are used to that I'm following, a few I'm altering to my preferences, and this is becoming one that I'm torn about.

[TAC]

I cannot believe I'm going to encourage this....but check your emails.

[Lethean]

Overthinking things again? 

You're damn right I am.    I'm just trying to be as fair and reasonable as I can be, and I fear some people are shooting themselves in the foot because they don't understand some of my listening quirks.     I'm hosting this roulette, but I'm not a dictator, so I'm open to ideas and suggestions.  There are a lot of roulette conventions people are used to that I'm following, a few I'm altering to my preferences, and this is becoming one that I'm torn about.

I don't think I understand your listening quirks at all, but I don't necessarily think that means shooting myself in the foot.  At least not anymore than sending TAC Katatonia multiple times in the same roulette....    I don't really care about production and so I'm never going to send a live vs studio version based on what I think, or what I think you think, has better production.  I'd only do it if I really thought the live energy was so incredible it outweighed the (likely) better sounding studio version. 


(It also doesn't matter how much you wrote about rounds 1 and 2; you were getting Leprous in round 3.  )

[ariich]

Overthinking things again? 

I'm not aware of it ever coming up.

Yeah this. I've not played in every roulette, but I've never seen the host checking out alternate versions (if they exist) for every song before. Not sure how it would work reliably either as there are often tons of live recordings, both pro and fan-shot. Nothing wrong with it of course, and each host should run things the way they want to.

Personally I would always want to rate the song and version that I was sent, as much as possible in isolation of anything else, as to my mind that's the fairest way to do things. But it's not the only way, and for sure I can see why you might find it a small bonus to some people if they got a better score because you found a version of the same song that you liked more.

[Evermind]

I think you should listen to every live version (including the shitty quality ones recorded by fans) of every song you get.

[Lonk]

I think you should listen to every live version (including the shitty quality ones recorded by fans) of every song you get.

Results for this round in 2024

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Overthinking things again? 

I'm not aware of it ever coming up.

Yeah this. I've not played in every roulette, but I've never seen the host checking out alternate versions (if they exist) for every song before. Not sure how it would work reliably either as there are often tons of live recordings, both pro and fan-shot. Nothing wrong with it of course, and each host should run things the way they want to.

Personally I would always want to rate the song and version that I was sent, as much as possible in isolation of anything else, as to my mind that's the fairest way to do things. But it's not the only way, and for sure I can see why you might find it a small bonus to some people if they got a better score because you found a version of the same song that you liked more.

The thing is, even if I didn't check out alternate versions, this would have still come up just from the submissions.  For example, there was one where they sent the studio version originally, and then replied back saying to use a live version they linked instead.  It's still early, and I could change my mind, but at the moment there are a number of things that I don't like as much about the live version as the studio version that seem to outweigh any other differences the live version had.  Particularly when a lot of songs are clustered together, small, sometimes subjective differences like that can add up and make a difference in score and ranking.  Production/engineering details, including texture and such are probably a significantly bigger deal for me than most people here. 

I'm just tempted to say that in the future, it's probably safest for people to submit the studio version, and if they want, to just link a live or alternate version, if one exists,as food for thought, unless there's a really compelling reason to prefer me scoring the live version.  I think four of the songs in this round are live versions.  One of them is pretty radically different from the studio recording, and another I think might be the primary recording of the song, so those two make more sense as justifications for sending the live version instead, but the other two are more questionable. 

[TAC]

Overthinking things again? 

I'm not aware of it ever coming up.

Yeah this. I've not played in every roulette, but I've never seen the host checking out alternate versions (if they exist) for every song before. Not sure how it would work reliably either as there are often tons of live recordings, both pro and fan-shot. Nothing wrong with it of course, and each host should run things the way they want to.

Personally I would always want to rate the song and version that I was sent, as much as possible in isolation of anything else, as to my mind that's the fairest way to do things. But it's not the only way, and for sure I can see why you might find it a small bonus to some people if they got a better score because you found a version of the same song that you liked more.

When I run a roulette, I do almost no outside listening for the duration of the roulette. That includes checking out other things by bands in any current round I'm in. I have, from time to time, pulled up a live version. In fact, there were two songs in my current round where I did just that. But it was only because I was interested. It's still a rare move.
I'm big on judging these songs in a vacuum. I feel that's the most fair way for me to evaluate.


 

[Sacul]

I’d say grade the version people send you and don’t make extra work for yourself. :-)

This. If I send you a specific version of a song then I want that to be scored, not something else

[Tomislav95]

Please, don't check how my guy sounds live, I'm scared

[Stadler]

I think you should listen to every live version (including the shitty quality ones recorded by fans) of every song you get.

Results for this round in 2024

There's a live video of Miley Cyrus singing a version of the song I sent.  I actually dig it a lot (that woman can sing) but the visuals... I'm not sure if I want to condone that. 

[TAC]

I hope no one sends Pull Me Under!

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Please, don't check how my guy sounds live, I'm scared

At least I didn't score Lethean on the '13 Wacken performance of "Forced Entry".  Oof. 

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Ok, so between TAC's impressions, Tomi's results, and Luke and king's stomach issues, everyone was totally distracted from hangman.  Here are the artists/songs filled out.  Any sender guesses?  I should be posting impressions tomorrow. 

  : Sarah Fimm – Story of Us
Sacul: Beth Gibbons & Rustin Man – Mysteries
  : Che Aimee Dorval – Blood Red Sun
  : Timbre – Night Girl Nycteris Sees the Sun
  : Crippled Black Phoenix – Nebulas
  : Beach House – Myth
  : Monica Heldal – Boy From the North
  : Jo Quail – Forge
  : St Vincent – Strange Mercy
  : Kalandra – Borders
  : Micah P Hinson – Beneath the Rose
  : Della Zyr – What Orpheus Sang Before
  : Marina Osk – Medan hondin min I hendi þinni hvilir
Stadler: Joan Baez – Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
Crow: Julia Holter – Lucette Stranded on an Island
TAC: Helloween – Longing
  : Rocket Moth – Qismah
  : Full of Keys – Suicide Bridge

[TAC]

Did Sacul send Beach House?

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Nope.  Is that the only artist of those you've heard of other than Helloween? 

[TAC]

Nope.  Is that the only artist of those you've heard of other than Helloween? 

Nope. I've heard of Joan Baez too! 

Someone sent me Beach House, and I think it may have been that song. We'll have to compare scores on it. 

EDIT: Yes, it was that same song sent by Shadow Ninja in my 2nd roulette.

[HOF]

Nope.  Is that the only artist of those you've heard of other than Helloween? 

Nope. I've heard of Joan Baez too! 

Someone sent me Beach House, and I think it may have been that song. We'll have to compare scores on it. 

EDIT: Yes, it was that same song sent by Shadow Ninja in my 2nd roulette.

Helloween, Joan Baez, and my entry are the only ones I’ve heard of too. I guess Rustin Man as well.

[Lethean]

Sacul sent Beth Gibbons?

[Lethean]

And Stadler sent Joan Baez?

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Yep, and yep. 

[SoundscapeMN]

Ariich sent St. Vincent?

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Nope.