Author Topic: Top Of The World Tour 2023  (Read 76592 times)

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Offline Kram

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #385 on: January 17, 2023, 12:12:34 PM »
The three SDOIT tracks from the show in Tel Aviv: https://youtu.be/hbMPLKvFCh4
James wasn't as bad on this as I was expecting.  He smartly chose some alternative notes rather than going for the big high notes in Losing Time/Grand Finale.  Not great, but not too bad.  And Mangini is just crushing it - love watching him play!

Offline Schurftkut

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #386 on: January 17, 2023, 12:16:26 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V38Bs6KvLU0

in 6:00 he sounds fine, being consciouss of what he can and cannot do that evening it seems.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #387 on: January 17, 2023, 12:40:33 PM »
But they're not playing The Mirror and Lie.  That would make this a much worse set list.
I cannot believe you actually mean this.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #388 on: January 17, 2023, 12:46:36 PM »
But they're not playing The Mirror and Lie.  That would make this a much worse set list.

I cannot believe you actually mean this.

I've never liked the Mirror - going back to when it was just Puppies on Acid.  Lie is better, but it's not great by any means.

There was a thread awhile back where folks ranked the songs on Awake.  After probably about 100 people posted rankings, I compiled the rankings.  If I recall correctly, everyone song was at least one person's top ranked song and someone's bottom ranked song.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #389 on: January 17, 2023, 01:42:53 PM »
Cool changes to the set list.  Looking forward to North American dates!
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #390 on: January 17, 2023, 01:56:45 PM »
For the record, The Mirror and Lie are my #2 and #3 from Awake, right behind Scarred.  For that album, there are those three that I love, a few that I dislike, and a bunch of decent songs in the middle.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #391 on: January 17, 2023, 02:00:26 PM »
I'm a big fan of The Mirror / Lie.  I would rate them higher than 6:00 and CiaW.  But I don't believe I've seen CiaW live yet where as I have seen The Mirror / Lie / 6:00 multiple times.  And with not having seen the last two tracks of SDOiT live, I actually probably should be more excited for this set to come to the US than maybe I realize. For seeing the band around 20 times now, having 4 songs in the set I've never seen should be a must see (and I think it would be if they come to NJ or NYC).

Offline bosk1

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #392 on: January 17, 2023, 02:04:16 PM »
I'm a big fan of The Mirror / Lie.  I would rate them higher than 6:00 and CiaW.  But I don't believe I've seen CiaW live yet where as I have seen The Mirror / Lie / 6:00 multiple times. 

Same here (and I should have said that 6:00 is my #4--just forgot about that one).  CIAW is like Burning My Soul, where it isn't a song I like on the album, but I think it would slay live.
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #393 on: January 17, 2023, 02:14:59 PM »
All of these new animations for the songs are so good. Old set and the new setlist.
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Offline Kram

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #394 on: January 17, 2023, 02:27:09 PM »
For the record, The Mirror and Lie are my #2 and #3 from Awake, right behind Scarred.  For that album, there are those three that I love, a few that I dislike, and a bunch of decent songs in the middle.
Voices is #1 from Awake and it's not even close IMO.  One of their top songs ever.  But I'll give you Scarred as my# 2 from Awake

Offline wolfking

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #395 on: January 17, 2023, 03:31:15 PM »
I'm a big fan of The Mirror / Lie.  I would rate them higher than 6:00 and CiaW.

Absolutely, no contest between the two pairings.

The Mirror crushes.  Love the whole thing and the SDV melody that we hear for the first time is just epic.  :metal
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #396 on: January 17, 2023, 04:36:27 PM »
All of these new animations for the songs are so good. Old set and the new setlist.

They really are. I loved the ones they used for the Six Degrees sections. The Count of Tuscany videos with the scenery of the landscapes was neat as well.
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Offline DTwwbwMP

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #397 on: January 17, 2023, 04:44:44 PM »
I'm a big fan of The Mirror / Lie.  I would rate them higher than 6:00 and CiaW.

Absolutely, no contest between the two pairings.

The Mirror crushes.  Love the whole thing and the SDV melody that we hear for the first time is just epic.  :metal

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Offline EPIC Outro

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #398 on: January 17, 2023, 05:30:40 PM »

So many good songs on Awake... Lifting Shadows has always been my favorite, though Space Dye Vest and Scarred are sooo close. Interestingly, while I also love The Mirror, I am not a huge fan of Lie.

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #399 on: January 17, 2023, 06:13:28 PM »
The three SDOIT tracks from the show in Tel Aviv: https://youtu.be/hbMPLKvFCh4
James wasn't as bad on this as I was expecting.  He smartly chose some alternative notes rather than going for the big high notes in Losing Time/Grand Finale.  Not great, but not too bad.  And Mangini is just crushing it - love watching him play!

Yeah, I am so with you here.

For the first night of a tour, JLB sounds great to my ears. A little pitchy here and there, but he's mostly there.

As for the altering the melodies, I am so, so happy that he started doing this...it's so much more enjoyable to hear him confidently sing a lower melody (a la Robert Plant on virtually anything Zeppelin) than struggle with the original.

I realize that some fans feel differently, but for THIS fan, I'll happily go see DT with a 70-year-old James doing his thing, altering the songs to suit his aged vocal register. Especially bc his warmth is still there on the lower parts.

As for the rest of the band...yeah, they are absolutely killing it.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #400 on: January 17, 2023, 07:03:54 PM »
Ray Alder has started doing this on a lot of Fates Warning stuff. Some of it is an improvement.

I think JLB should look into doing more of this.  I mean, ya it’s nice to hear that note at the end of LTL, but I honestly believe the song and melodies themselves are strong enough to carry the song without “the note”.
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Offline NoFred

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #401 on: January 17, 2023, 09:16:39 PM »
The three SDOIT tracks from the show in Tel Aviv: https://youtu.be/hbMPLKvFCh4
James wasn't as bad on this as I was expecting.  He smartly chose some alternative notes rather than going for the big high notes in Losing Time/Grand Finale.  Not great, but not too bad.  And Mangini is just crushing it - love watching him play!

Yeah, I am so with you here.

For the first night of a tour, JLB sounds great to my ears. A little pitchy here and there, but he's mostly there.

As for the altering the melodies, I am so, so happy that he started doing this...it's so much more enjoyable to hear him confidently sing a lower melody (a la Robert Plant on virtually anything Zeppelin) than struggle with the original.

I realize that some fans feel differently, but for THIS fan, I'll happily go see DT with a 70-year-old James doing his thing, altering the songs to suit his aged vocal register. Especially bc his warmth is still there on the lower parts.

As for the rest of the band...yeah, they are absolutely killing it.

Agree 100% to all of this. Just do whatever and create a good experience for all. Backing tracks included, just don’t try to obviously hide it (re: the BitS maneuver)

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #402 on: January 18, 2023, 06:03:31 AM »
The vocal performances are shaky and have been for a long time. This is not anything new. The thing I don't get is why so many people are all of a sudden waking up to this reality. We have to live with it because if it were something he could fix, he would have done so already.
I'm thinking these days that this is true. My hunch is that there's been a more permanent injury (maybe during the Astonishing tour?) that we don't know about. I know he does everything to take care of his voice and this is why I think it's permanently damaged. When we hear those moments where he sounds like himself it's like the voice we know, and it's like the heavens have opened up. But when he's off it's unpleasant and even painful to listen to. It's very sad, but I give him credit for soldiering on.

For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

They probably have 4-5 albums left in them and are riding this lineup out until the end, health permitting. Ride it out baby!
I think it's the right choice. His is the voice we know from a 30+ years long catalog of music.
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Offline Deadeye21

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #403 on: January 18, 2023, 06:12:58 AM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.
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Online ReaperKK

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #404 on: January 18, 2023, 06:54:17 AM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.

Honestly when I'm at shows I almost never spot issues with the singing (not just DT). I'm usually taken in by the moment and just enjoying it. I think the most jarring thing is when JLB messed up the lyrics, I was like "wait a minute here".

Offline SeRoX

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #405 on: January 18, 2023, 07:32:23 AM »
Concert environment is completely another thing. When you are just there you can't catch mistakes for the most part.  As for the vocals and particularly James in that matter many may think he just rules the stage in that moment. But when you go home and watch videos from youtube... well, it is another story for the singers.  It can be shocking.

I hope from now on James still delivers. The thing is age doesn't treat him well. Constant touring and concert length don't do anything good too. I hope he figures out what is good for him and be there till the end.
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Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #406 on: January 18, 2023, 08:01:24 AM »
The thing is age doesn't treat him well.
That's where I draw the line, though. It's not about age. There are older singers than him who are out there killing it. Real vocal decline doesn't set in until after 70 (there's science to back this up, it's actually true of all physical intrinsic aging, including the voice). But those older singers don't have his particular past challenges to overcome.

What it is for him is, he's injured. Perhaps even re-injured. Singing is an athletic event (quote, my opera teacher). Any athlete with, for example, a knee injury wouldn't be expected to ever be quite the same, at any age, especially if that knee had been injured possibly more than once....

I hope he figures out what is good for him and be there till the end.
I hope so, too. Maybe it means pulling out crazy high note songs and bringing out songs with less demanding tessitura (ie. keep the Count and ditch BITS, as much as I love that song). Maybe it means that going forward, new songs are written in a less demanding range (Answering the Call rocks, and it doesn't contain any high F#). I don't agree with the low singing in BITS, he's a tenor for heavens sake. Singing in the basement won't do him any good longterm, either. I think staying in middle voice and working on legato lines, excellent vowel placement and breath support are his best friends now.

Whatever happens, I'd prefer for him to do what is doable gracefully than any of the alternatives.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 08:08:39 AM by crystalstars17 »
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Offline Wim Kruithof

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #407 on: January 18, 2023, 11:20:15 AM »
I've never liked the Mirror - going back to when it was just Puppies on Acid.  Lie is better, but it's not great by any means.
There was a thread awhile back where folks ranked the songs on Awake.  After probably about 100 people posted rankings, I compiled the rankings.  If I recall correctly, everyone song was at least one person's top ranked song and someone's bottom ranked song.

But didn't you liked it much more when Portnoy's Twelve Step Suite turns out to be retrospective? And this was like a 'prologue'? (No idea if that's even a word in English). I can understand that opinions change more than often and that's one of the great things about this wonderful band, there's so much in this music. But not liking The Mirror, that's truly remarkable.

I wish I was a fan back then. Seeing the Twelve Step Suite evolve and waiting for the next part, in next album, must have been an awesome time.

And about Awake, it's my #1 album of all times, with Voices, Scarred, Lie, The Mirror, Space-Dye Vest and Lifting Shadows off a Dream all basicly at #1. Interchangable beauties. 6:00 and Caught in a Web are the bottom songs, for me.
Wim pointed out something I don't see mentioned very often...

Online TheBarstoolWarrior

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #408 on: January 18, 2023, 01:04:39 PM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.

I am still holding the rest of the band to an incredibly high standard that they easily surpass every single time. DT is driven by these amazing musicians, who are pretty much a supergroup. Where many of the all time greats seem to lack focus later in their careers or fall off with age, DT seems to defy these norms. Actually, some of them are even better today, if you can imagine, than they were in their 20s. Usually the opposite happens, especially in contemporary music.

If JP were to ever - God forbid - get to a place where he could not make it through songs without missing a ton of notes or his intonation falling apart, I think I would be incredibly disappointed and stop coming to shows. In a sense I think I have just gotten used to understanding JLB's presence and role in the band as distinct from the other members. I wouldn't call it low expectations, per se, but I have accepted that if I want to see JP, JR, JM, and MM melt my face every 2 years, I need to disengage from the vocal performance or at least engage it differently.
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Offline Wim Kruithof

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #409 on: January 18, 2023, 01:13:17 PM »
I am still holding the rest of the band to an incredibly high standard that they easily surpass every single time. DT is driven by these amazing musicians, who are pretty much a supergroup. Where many of the all time greats seem to lack focus later in their careers or fall off with age, DT seems to defy these norms. Actually, some of them are even better today, if you can imagine, than they were in their 20s. Usually the opposite happens, especially in contemporary music.

If JP were to ever - God forbid - get to a place where he could not make it through songs without missing a ton of notes or his intonation falling apart, I think I would be incredibly disappointed and stop coming to shows. In a sense I think I have just gotten used to understanding JLB's presence and role in the band as distinct from the other members. I wouldn't call it low expectations, per se, but I have accepted that if I want to see JP, JR, JM, and MM melt my face every 2 years, I need to disengage from the vocal performance or at least engage it differently.

I absolutely agree with all of this. LaBrie just comes like a package-deal and there's so much to adore, that I can handle his voice getting 'aged'. Just hope for him he's not in too much conflict about it. After all, he has brought so much to enjoy and look up to.
Wim pointed out something I don't see mentioned very often...

Offline Kram

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #410 on: January 18, 2023, 03:09:38 PM »
The three SDOIT tracks from the show in Tel Aviv: https://youtu.be/hbMPLKvFCh4
James wasn't as bad on this as I was expecting.  He smartly chose some alternative notes rather than going for the big high notes in Losing Time/Grand Finale.  Not great, but not too bad.  And Mangini is just crushing it - love watching him play!

Yeah, I am so with you here.

For the first night of a tour, JLB sounds great to my ears. A little pitchy here and there, but he's mostly there.

As for the altering the melodies, I am so, so happy that he started doing this...it's so much more enjoyable to hear him confidently sing a lower melody (a la Robert Plant on virtually anything Zeppelin) than struggle with the original.

I realize that some fans feel differently, but for THIS fan, I'll happily go see DT with a 70-year-old James doing his thing, altering the songs to suit his aged vocal register. Especially bc his warmth is still there on the lower parts.

As for the rest of the band...yeah, they are absolutely killing it.
Of course I had to go back and watch the live version from Score and it's an incredible performance he just kills it nails all the high notes - that was more than 15 years ago now though.  And then there's Portnoy at the end with the gong... 

Offline Awaken

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #411 on: January 19, 2023, 04:35:00 AM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.

I am still holding the rest of the band to an incredibly high standard that they easily surpass every single time. DT is driven by these amazing musicians, who are pretty much a supergroup. Where many of the all time greats seem to lack focus later in their careers or fall off with age, DT seems to defy these norms. Actually, some of them are even better today, if you can imagine, than they were in their 20s. Usually the opposite happens, especially in contemporary music.

If JP were to ever - God forbid - get to a place where he could not make it through songs without missing a ton of notes or his intonation falling apart, I think I would be incredibly disappointed and stop coming to shows. In a sense I think I have just gotten used to understanding JLB's presence and role in the band as distinct from the other members. I wouldn't call it low expectations, per se, but I have accepted that if I want to see JP, JR, JM, and MM melt my face every 2 years, I need to disengage from the vocal performance or at least engage it differently.

I could be wrong (it's happened before haha), but I think if/when the bolded becomes an issue, we wouldn't see JP performing anymore.  From what I've read, he is a fanatic about being able to play songs clean live or not at all (which is where I believe they are with The Glass Prison).  Again, I could be remembering it wrong.  He delivers beyond expectations every time I see him perform and that's no accident.  When he can't anymore, he won't anymore IMO

Patiently awaiting US dates . . . . . love the setlist and have never seen CIAW live so it will be great to check that one off the list.

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #412 on: January 19, 2023, 05:58:10 AM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.

I am still holding the rest of the band to an incredibly high standard that they easily surpass every single time. DT is driven by these amazing musicians, who are pretty much a supergroup. Where many of the all time greats seem to lack focus later in their careers or fall off with age, DT seems to defy these norms. Actually, some of them are even better today, if you can imagine, than they were in their 20s. Usually the opposite happens, especially in contemporary music.

If JP were to ever - God forbid - get to a place where he could not make it through songs without missing a ton of notes or his intonation falling apart, I think I would be incredibly disappointed and stop coming to shows. In a sense I think I have just gotten used to understanding JLB's presence and role in the band as distinct from the other members. I wouldn't call it low expectations, per se, but I have accepted that if I want to see JP, JR, JM, and MM melt my face every 2 years, I need to disengage from the vocal performance or at least engage it differently.

I could be wrong (it's happened before haha), but I think if/when the bolded becomes an issue, we wouldn't see JP performing anymore.  From what I've read, he is a fanatic about being able to play songs clean live or not at all (which is where I believe they are with The Glass Prison).  Again, I could be remembering it wrong.  He delivers beyond expectations every time I see him perform and that's no accident.  When he can't anymore, he won't anymore IMO

Patiently awaiting US dates . . . . . love the setlist and have never seen CIAW live so it will be great to check that one off the list.

Just for the sake of context: JP absolutely has 'off' nights. As someone who spent a fair amount of time (i.e. years) woodshedding that dude's parts, I tend to notice to every note that's out of place. There were a couple of videos last posted from last year's tour where I cringed at a couple of points listening to JP play certain solos.

Now, that's not to say he butchered anything, bc he rarely, if ever, has a brain fart. But, when your forearm/wrist gets fatigued, you can hear it in your bends and/or alternate picked runs. When this happens, a lot of us guitarists will overcompensate and throw in something from our 'bag 'o tricks' to get through the section. For JP, this often includes a blast of alternately-picked notes (typically chromatic) that helps him reset until he gets to the next bar.

Obviously, the guy has a million notes to play each night, so even JP (who I consider one of the 'cleanest' players alive) is going to have a moment or two where his whole-note bends are a bit a flat or where he flubs a section, but the fact is, it happens. In fact, when it happens on a super-melodic part (like the second half of the "About to Crash" solo), it's just as noticeable to me as when JLB misses a lyric.

That all said, I've straight-up butchered my fair share of parts over the years, and I have absolutely no expectation of going to a live concert and seeing perfection. In fact, I tend to enjoy those points where someone messes up and grimaces for a few seconds—it's a reminder that I am watching something 'live' and in the moment. These days, that's becoming a pretty rare occurrence.

Rudess and Mangini are machines, but if I were a more proficient drummer or keyboardist, I suspect I would pick up on there mistakes as well. Myung is, well, he's so often buried in the mix I have no idea what he's playing, but it 'looks' cool!

As a singer, JLB has always and will continue to get the lion's share of the scrutiny, especially when he struggles, but the idea that he is basically a necessary evil to be endured when seeing DT live is a notion I do not subscribe to.

Online TheBarstoolWarrior

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #413 on: January 19, 2023, 06:43:43 AM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.

I am still holding the rest of the band to an incredibly high standard that they easily surpass every single time. DT is driven by these amazing musicians, who are pretty much a supergroup. Where many of the all time greats seem to lack focus later in their careers or fall off with age, DT seems to defy these norms. Actually, some of them are even better today, if you can imagine, than they were in their 20s. Usually the opposite happens, especially in contemporary music.

If JP were to ever - God forbid - get to a place where he could not make it through songs without missing a ton of notes or his intonation falling apart, I think I would be incredibly disappointed and stop coming to shows. In a sense I think I have just gotten used to understanding JLB's presence and role in the band as distinct from the other members. I wouldn't call it low expectations, per se, but I have accepted that if I want to see JP, JR, JM, and MM melt my face every 2 years, I need to disengage from the vocal performance or at least engage it differently.

I could be wrong (it's happened before haha), but I think if/when the bolded becomes an issue, we wouldn't see JP performing anymore.  From what I've read, he is a fanatic about being able to play songs clean live or not at all (which is where I believe they are with The Glass Prison).  Again, I could be remembering it wrong.  He delivers beyond expectations every time I see him perform and that's no accident.  When he can't anymore, he won't anymore IMO

Patiently awaiting US dates . . . . . love the setlist and have never seen CIAW live so it will be great to check that one off the list.

Just for the sake of context: JP absolutely has 'off' nights. As someone who spent a fair amount of time (i.e. years) woodshedding that dude's parts, I tend to notice to every note that's out of place. There were a couple of videos last posted from last year's tour where I cringed at a couple of points listening to JP play certain solos.

Now, that's not to say he butchered anything, bc he rarely, if ever, has a brain fart. But, when your forearm/wrist gets fatigued, you can hear it in your bends and/or alternate picked runs. When this happens, a lot of us guitarists will overcompensate and throw in something from our 'bag 'o tricks' to get through the section. For JP, this often includes a blast of alternately-picked notes (typically chromatic) that helps him reset until he gets to the next bar.

Obviously, the guy has a million notes to play each night, so even JP (who I consider one of the 'cleanest' players alive) is going to have a moment or two where his whole-note bends are a bit a flat or where he flubs a section, but the fact is, it happens. In fact, when it happens on a super-melodic part (like the second half of the "About to Crash" solo), it's just as noticeable to me as when JLB misses a lyric.

That all said, I've straight-up butchered my fair share of parts over the years, and I have absolutely no expectation of going to a live concert and seeing perfection. In fact, I tend to enjoy those points where someone messes up and grimaces for a few seconds—it's a reminder that I am watching something 'live' and in the moment. These days, that's becoming a pretty rare occurrence.

Rudess and Mangini are machines, but if I were a more proficient drummer or keyboardist, I suspect I would pick up on there mistakes as well. Myung is, well, he's so often buried in the mix I have no idea what he's playing, but it 'looks' cool!

As a singer, JLB has always and will continue to get the lion's share of the scrutiny, especially when he struggles, but the idea that he is basically a necessary evil to be endured when seeing DT live is a notion I do not subscribe to.

Everyone has off nights and messes up. As someone who also knows a fair amount of JP parts, I confirm he has missed notes and there probably shouldn't be a single night where every single note from the record was replicated. It's almost expected - or should be - that when you're trying to replicate a flurry of alternate picked notes from your recorded solos you're not going to get it to sound exactly like the record. Given these are very fine, subtle finger movements that happen dozens of times in a live setting, of course it's not going to be perfect: no one who plays this style of guitar will be.

That's not what we're talking about with JLB. We're talking about every single night not being able to sing any given song in tune from start to finish or pronounce the lyrics when your part is literally entirely diatonic eight, quarter and half notes. These are not difficult parts to sing. They aren't flurries of 16th notes, or scalar runs from the bottom of your range to the very top, or wide arpeggios, or even just a lot of notes in general. The DT vocal lines are pretty plain vanilla. Still, I do not expect him to nail every single note in every song. But the fans should be able to expect that the majority of the performances is solid, which currently it is not. The guitar equivalent of what is happening on the vocal side of the band is this at 5:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUA50ojVgPU
Disclaimer: All opinions stated are my own unless otherwise specified. I don't personally know any present or former members of Dream Theater. From time to time where the context is obvious, I may state an opinion without clearly labeling every single part of it as such. I cannot predict the future.

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #414 on: January 19, 2023, 07:00:50 AM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.

I am still holding the rest of the band to an incredibly high standard that they easily surpass every single time. DT is driven by these amazing musicians, who are pretty much a supergroup. Where many of the all time greats seem to lack focus later in their careers or fall off with age, DT seems to defy these norms. Actually, some of them are even better today, if you can imagine, than they were in their 20s. Usually the opposite happens, especially in contemporary music.

If JP were to ever - God forbid - get to a place where he could not make it through songs without missing a ton of notes or his intonation falling apart, I think I would be incredibly disappointed and stop coming to shows. In a sense I think I have just gotten used to understanding JLB's presence and role in the band as distinct from the other members. I wouldn't call it low expectations, per se, but I have accepted that if I want to see JP, JR, JM, and MM melt my face every 2 years, I need to disengage from the vocal performance or at least engage it differently.

I could be wrong (it's happened before haha), but I think if/when the bolded becomes an issue, we wouldn't see JP performing anymore.  From what I've read, he is a fanatic about being able to play songs clean live or not at all (which is where I believe they are with The Glass Prison).  Again, I could be remembering it wrong.  He delivers beyond expectations every time I see him perform and that's no accident.  When he can't anymore, he won't anymore IMO

Patiently awaiting US dates . . . . . love the setlist and have never seen CIAW live so it will be great to check that one off the list.

Just for the sake of context: JP absolutely has 'off' nights. As someone who spent a fair amount of time (i.e. years) woodshedding that dude's parts, I tend to notice to every note that's out of place. There were a couple of videos last posted from last year's tour where I cringed at a couple of points listening to JP play certain solos.

Now, that's not to say he butchered anything, bc he rarely, if ever, has a brain fart. But, when your forearm/wrist gets fatigued, you can hear it in your bends and/or alternate picked runs. When this happens, a lot of us guitarists will overcompensate and throw in something from our 'bag 'o tricks' to get through the section. For JP, this often includes a blast of alternately-picked notes (typically chromatic) that helps him reset until he gets to the next bar.

Obviously, the guy has a million notes to play each night, so even JP (who I consider one of the 'cleanest' players alive) is going to have a moment or two where his whole-note bends are a bit a flat or where he flubs a section, but the fact is, it happens. In fact, when it happens on a super-melodic part (like the second half of the "About to Crash" solo), it's just as noticeable to me as when JLB misses a lyric.

That all said, I've straight-up butchered my fair share of parts over the years, and I have absolutely no expectation of going to a live concert and seeing perfection. In fact, I tend to enjoy those points where someone messes up and grimaces for a few seconds—it's a reminder that I am watching something 'live' and in the moment. These days, that's becoming a pretty rare occurrence.

Rudess and Mangini are machines, but if I were a more proficient drummer or keyboardist, I suspect I would pick up on there mistakes as well. Myung is, well, he's so often buried in the mix I have no idea what he's playing, but it 'looks' cool!

As a singer, JLB has always and will continue to get the lion's share of the scrutiny, especially when he struggles, but the idea that he is basically a necessary evil to be endured when seeing DT live is a notion I do not subscribe to.

Everyone has off nights and messes up. As someone who also knows a fair amount of JP parts, I confirm he has missed notes and there probably shouldn't be a single night where every single note from the record was replicated. It's almost expected - or should be - that when you're trying to replicate a flurry of alternate picked notes from your recorded solos you're not going to get it to sound exactly like the record. Given these are very fine, subtle finger movements that happen dozens of times in a live setting, of course it's not going to be perfect: no one who plays this style of guitar will be.

That's not what we're talking about with JLB. We're talking about every single night not being able to sing any given song in tune from start to finish or pronounce the lyrics when your part is literally entirely diatonic eight, quarter and half notes. These are not difficult parts to sing. They aren't flurries of 16th notes, or scalar runs from the bottom of your range to the very top, or wide arpeggios, or even just a lot of notes in general. The DT vocal lines are pretty plain vanilla. Still, I do not expect him to nail every single note in every song. But the fans should be able to expect that the majority of the performances is solid, which currently it is not. The guitar equivalent of what is happening on the vocal side of the band is this at 5:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUA50ojVgPU

Fair enough, but I was not talking about JP messing up the intro to "The Glass Prison," I was talking about him messing up a 'simple' but totally memorable melody. Again, I was only looking to add context to the discussion, not gasoline.

Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I fully recognize that the majority (on the board of a few dozen fans at least) seems to think JLB is a liability live. I've gone on record at a few points expressing a different opinion.

Frankly, I've more than said my peace on this, so I will bow out of this convo. I'm too old (that clock is always ticking :lol) to engage in circular conversations, and this JLB talk is beginning to feel a bit like the PR thread where a few of us just go round and round and round, page after page, saying different variations of the same thing.

I dig the band (which is why I'm on this forum), and I hope they continue playing for as long as they see fit.

Offline Trav86

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #415 on: January 19, 2023, 08:40:06 AM »
I just had a thought. Everyone seemed excited that Petrucci was back to singing and the backing tracks were gone. But maybe, with all of the technical issues James had with the mic, they just didn’t have the backing vocal tracks working for that show. I guess Spain will find out tonight.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #416 on: January 19, 2023, 08:44:35 AM »
As a singer, JLB has always and will continue to get the lion's share of the scrutiny, especially when he struggles, but the idea that he is basically a necessary evil to be endured when seeing DT live is a notion I do not subscribe to.

Yup, very well said.

That's not what we're talking about with JLB. We're talking about every single night not being able to sing any given song in tune from start to finish or pronounce the lyrics when your part is literally entirely diatonic eight, quarter and half notes. These are not difficult parts to sing. They aren't flurries of 16th notes, or scalar runs from the bottom of your range to the very top, or wide arpeggios, or even just a lot of notes in general. The DT vocal lines are pretty plain vanilla. Still, I do not expect him to nail every single note in every song. But the fans should be able to expect that the majority of the performances is solid, which currently it is not. The guitar equivalent of what is happening on the vocal side of the band is this at 5:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUA50ojVgPU

I think you are missing the point of WM's analogy altogether.  And for many, many reasons, James' parts are far from "not difficult parts to sing" or "plain vanilla."  I don't know how anyone could credibly argue otherwise, and I've heard plenty of pro and amateur singers, as well as vocal coaches, back up how difficult a lot of his vocal lines are.  Look, you clearly have an ax to grind with LaBrie, and that's your right.  But you couldn't be more off base on your arguments. 

On a related note, I can't think of many metal singers of LaBrie's generation that sang anywhere near the difficulty of his parts that sound great nowadays.  Yeah, there are some.  But not many.  Dickinson has been struggling for a LONG time now.  Tate has been plain awful for close to 2 decades (although the difference with him is that he (1) willfully abused his voice and (2) doesn't even try).  Dio has always been horrid live, even when he was young, IMO (although I will give you that his voice stayed pretty consistent even into his later years).  Alder completely alters his vocal melodies (which often sounds great, by the way, so props to him for learning what his limits are and learning how to side-step them and play to his strengths, even if it changes the song up considerably).  Bach has been awful for almost as long as Tate.  And on and on we could go. 

But more on topic, this isn't the "bash James" thread (as if that would be allowed anyway), so now that you've said your piece on that, I suggest we actually discuss the tour.

I just had a thought. Everyone seemed excited that Petrucci was back to singing and the backing tracks were gone. But maybe, with all of the technical issues James had with the mic, they just didn’t have the backing vocal tracks working for that show. I guess Spain will find out tonight.

Interesting point.  To me, I think the best of both words is to keep JP's mic up and keep the backing tracks (just at a slightly lower volume), so I hope that's what they are going for. 

I remember the first time I heard them soundcheck instrumentally when using the backing track, and it was amazing to hear how low the backing vocals were in the mix, but then later hear how much texture they added underneath James's voice.  It was similar to when I did a singing competition that Queenryche did years ago, and they sent me the backing track sans vocals, and there were parts that had backing vocals that were so low in the mix they were barely audible compared to the other instruments.  And yet, when I recorded my lead vocal over the track, the parts with the backing tracks in the background had SO much more punch and texture to them, even though the backing vocals were buried in the mix.  That, IMO, is closer to where I want the backing vocal tracks to be in DT's live show.  They do add quite a bit, but they don't need to be so loud that they compete with the lead vocal, even if James is choosing to sing more of a harmony than a lead.  I'm good with him doing alternate vocal lines.  But I want to hear him, with the vocal track being background support, and not the other way around.  And JP's voice adds a different texture to the backing vocals, so notwithstanding him being self-conscious, I wish he would keep his volume up a bit more than he has on the most recent tours.  It can be a distraction when it looks like he is just lip synching (even though he isn't) because we can't hear what he is actually singing. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 09:34:40 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #417 on: January 19, 2023, 09:12:50 AM »

I just had a thought. Everyone seemed excited that Petrucci was back to singing and the backing tracks were gone. But maybe, with all of the technical issues James had with the mic, they just didn’t have the backing vocal tracks working for that show. I guess Spain will find out tonight.

Interesting point.  To me, I think the best of both words is to keep JP's mic up and keep the backing tracks (just at a slightly lower volume), so I hope that's what they are going for. 

I remember the first time I heard them soundcheck instrumentally when using the backing track, and it was amazing to hear how low the backing vocals were in the mix, but then later hear how much texture they added underneath James's voice.  It was similar to when I did a singing competition that Queenryche did years ago, and they sent me the backing track sans vocals, and there were parts that had backing vocals that were so low in the mix they were barely audible compared to the other instruments.  And yet, when I recorded my lead vocal over the track, the parts with the backing tracks in the background had SO much more punch and texture to them, even though the backing vocals were buried in the mix.  That, IMO, is closer to where I want the backing vocal tracks to be in DT's live show.  They do add quite a bit, but they don't need to be so loud that they compete with the lead vocal, even if James is choosing to sing more of a harmony than a lead.  I'm good with him doing alternate vocal lines.  But I want to hear him, with the vocal track being background support, and not the other way around.  And JP's voice adds a different texture to the backing vocals, so notwithstanding him being self-conscious, I wish he would keep his volume up a bit more than he has on the most recent tours.  It can be a distraction when it looks like he is just lip synching because he can't hear what he is actually singing.

I agree completely.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #418 on: January 19, 2023, 09:15:38 AM »
With regards to the backing tracks.  I wonder how much of this also depends on the venue and where you are within the venue.  I say this, because the DT show in CT, I didn't recall hearing the backing tracks much if at all, I sat in the back for that show.  For the NJ show, I was front row, and the backing tracks were pretty noticeable. 

Offline Kram

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Re: Top Of The World Tour 2023
« Reply #419 on: January 19, 2023, 10:57:50 AM »
For decades I have been in a place where I am honestly not even paying that much attention to the vocal. It is what it is and I enjoy the shows.
Yep. Last year I just enjoyed hearing the music in person and it was more about the total package, the brilliance and the entity of the music itself.

I honestly believe this is all we can do as fans now. Just enjoy the moment. Watch it on the blu-ray releases and listen tot eh official releases where they fix him up a little if we choose to look back on the tour, or just take in the studio recordings again. We need to stop trying to listen for the faults, or letting it be as visceral of a reaction when he can’t hit those notes anymore. He’s old, he’s vocally injured, we gotta just take it with the grain of salt that we’re seeing those songs played live in the moment and enjoy the entity of it all, not nitpicking the one aspect that can’t be perfect.

I am still holding the rest of the band to an incredibly high standard that they easily surpass every single time. DT is driven by these amazing musicians, who are pretty much a supergroup. Where many of the all time greats seem to lack focus later in their careers or fall off with age, DT seems to defy these norms. Actually, some of them are even better today, if you can imagine, than they were in their 20s. Usually the opposite happens, especially in contemporary music.

If JP were to ever - God forbid - get to a place where he could not make it through songs without missing a ton of notes or his intonation falling apart, I think I would be incredibly disappointed and stop coming to shows. In a sense I think I have just gotten used to understanding JLB's presence and role in the band as distinct from the other members. I wouldn't call it low expectations, per se, but I have accepted that if I want to see JP, JR, JM, and MM melt my face every 2 years, I need to disengage from the vocal performance or at least engage it differently.

I could be wrong (it's happened before haha), but I think if/when the bolded becomes an issue, we wouldn't see JP performing anymore.  From what I've read, he is a fanatic about being able to play songs clean live or not at all (which is where I believe they are with The Glass Prison).  Again, I could be remembering it wrong.  He delivers beyond expectations every time I see him perform and that's no accident.  When he can't anymore, he won't anymore IMO

Patiently awaiting US dates . . . . . love the setlist and have never seen CIAW live so it will be great to check that one off the list.

Just for the sake of context: JP absolutely has 'off' nights. As someone who spent a fair amount of time (i.e. years) woodshedding that dude's parts, I tend to notice to every note that's out of place. There were a couple of videos last posted from last year's tour where I cringed at a couple of points listening to JP play certain solos.

Now, that's not to say he butchered anything, bc he rarely, if ever, has a brain fart. But, when your forearm/wrist gets fatigued, you can hear it in your bends and/or alternate picked runs. When this happens, a lot of us guitarists will overcompensate and throw in something from our 'bag 'o tricks' to get through the section. For JP, this often includes a blast of alternately-picked notes (typically chromatic) that helps him reset until he gets to the next bar.

Obviously, the guy has a million notes to play each night, so even JP (who I consider one of the 'cleanest' players alive) is going to have a moment or two where his whole-note bends are a bit a flat or where he flubs a section, but the fact is, it happens. In fact, when it happens on a super-melodic part (like the second half of the "About to Crash" solo), it's just as noticeable to me as when JLB misses a lyric.

That all said, I've straight-up butchered my fair share of parts over the years, and I have absolutely no expectation of going to a live concert and seeing perfection. In fact, I tend to enjoy those points where someone messes up and grimaces for a few seconds—it's a reminder that I am watching something 'live' and in the moment. These days, that's becoming a pretty rare occurrence.

Rudess and Mangini are machines, but if I were a more proficient drummer or keyboardist, I suspect I would pick up on there mistakes as well. Myung is, well, he's so often buried in the mix I have no idea what he's playing, but it 'looks' cool!

As a singer, JLB has always and will continue to get the lion's share of the scrutiny, especially when he struggles, but the idea that he is basically a necessary evil to be endured when seeing DT live is a notion I do not subscribe to.
Myung's pretty much a machine too - just sayin.  And I'm a bass player lol.  But you're point is taken - everyone's entitled to make a mistake here and there (even if it's so minor only other musicians pickup on it).  Even virtuoso musicians (which is what they are) like the guys in DT.