Dropping the tuning of songs to help Labrie out?

[Lethean]

I agree with Skeever's point on cell phone recordings, and disagree that James should quit or be forced out.  He can still sing.  He sounds great on the latest album.  I read lots of posts about how great he sounded at Rock in Rio from people who were there in person, whereas people here, only seeing it on youtube, think it was awful.  Friends who saw him DT in February/March thought he was great.  Who's right?  Maybe both, or neither.  But what experience is more important?  Imo, it's the experience of the people who were actually there.  And if most of them are happy with it, and everyone is happy with the albums (that we'll have forever), that's what matters. 

[Skeever]

I agree with Skeever's point on cell phone recordings, and disagree that James should quit or be forced out.  He can still sing.  He sounds great on the latest album.  I read lots of posts about how great he sounded at Rock in Rio from people who were there in person, whereas people here, only seeing it on youtube, think it was awful.  Friends who saw him DT in February/March thought he was great.  Who's right?  Maybe both, or neither.  But what experience is more important?  Imo, it's the experience of the people who were actually there.  And if most of them are happy with it, and everyone is happy with the albums (that we'll have forever), that's what matters.

You never see people comment "Wow, Myung's tone sounds thin and flat" or "JP's new Majesty guitar must suck because that sounds nothing like the album" live, but you always see it with regard to James' vocals. Why? Because the human mind knows nothing better than how a voice should sound, and naturally picks up the "unnatural" sound of the voice on the poorly compressed and EQ'd cellphone recording. But it makes excuses for everything else. Not saying James is perfect, but all that exasperates the human mind's tendency to fixate on his errors.

[Ben_Jamin]

JLB sounded fine for me when I saw the first and last shows of the US leg this tour. My problem was the backing vocals overpowering his live vocals. Backing vocals should be there to compliment the lead vocals, not overpower them. If the backing vocals were a bit lower in the mix, and JLBs live vocals were heard more, even if he wasn't singing the lead in the vocal harmony, we would still be able to hear his live voice and appreciate him still being able to sing well.

I've said it before with Distant Memories that I don't enjoy every change he makes during his love shows, such as not prolonging the Beyond This Life "Our deeds have traveled Far", but then he sounded better at the shows I went to than he did on Distant Memories show.

From my observation, I don't think any one of them is planning on hanging it up anytime soon. Mangini is living it up with being a full-time member in a band that he's allowed to try things with, why would he leave.

Also, it's been a few years since they toured this much and for a band with such complex vocal melodies and parts, it's going to take JLB's vocals to get used to this much work. Maybe that's a reason why they had the backing vocals so high in the mix this tour, so JLB won't over do it if his vocals have to get used to being worked so much again.

[wolfking]

I agree with Skeever's point on cell phone recordings, and disagree that James should quit or be forced out.  He can still sing.  He sounds great on the latest album.  I read lots of posts about how great he sounded at Rock in Rio from people who were there in person, whereas people here, only seeing it on youtube, think it was awful.  Friends who saw him DT in February/March thought he was great.  Who's right?  Maybe both, or neither.  But what experience is more important?  Imo, it's the experience of the people who were actually there.  And if most of them are happy with it, and everyone is happy with the albums (that we'll have forever), that's what matters.

You never see people comment "Wow, Myung's tone sounds thin and flat" or "JP's new Majesty guitar must suck because that sounds nothing like the album" live, but you always see it with regard to James' vocals. Why? Because the human mind knows nothing better than how a voice should sound, and naturally picks up the "unnatural" sound of the voice on the poorly compressed and EQ'd cellphone recording. But it makes excuses for everything else. Not saying James is perfect, but all that exasperates the human mind's tendency to fixate on his errors.

I know it's nitpicking, but to be fair, JP has had a lot of criticism when he switched over from Ibanez to MusicMan.

[Setlist Scotty]

A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible.  A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.

Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"

Absolutely! And it's a shock, but it's reality. Just because I hear myself differently doesn't mean that's what reality is.

The same is true regarding audience recordings of concerts. Yeah it's not going to reflect everything perfectly from the standpoint of being there and feeling the excitement and the super loud volume reverberating through the venue and your body, but that doesn't mean that the recordings don't accurately reflect what James' performance was like. If he hit a sour note, a crummy cellphone recording is not going to magnify that any more than a professional multi-track recording. So like it or not, audience recordings are a very good indicator of what his (and the band's) performance was. If someone remembers it differently, it's because they were caught up in the heat of the moment and blasted at a high volume that probably made it difficult if not impossible to decipher the details as well as you can after the fact, just in the same way athletes, coaches and sports commentators can make insightful comments about certain plays or games after the fact when watching replays.

[Dream Team]

No one with integrity, especially someone like JM, would expect the band to retire if he couldn’t go on.

[Skeever]

A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible.  A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.

Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"

Absolutely! And it's a shock, but it's reality. Just because I hear myself differently doesn't mean that's what reality is.

The same is true regarding audience recordings of concerts. Yeah it's not going to reflect everything perfectly from the standpoint of being there and feeling the excitement and the super loud volume reverberating through the venue and your body, but that doesn't mean that the recordings don't accurately reflect what James' performance was like. If he hit a sour note, a crummy cellphone recording is not going to magnify that any more than a professional multi-track recording. So like it or not, audience recordings are a very good indicator of what his (and the band's) performance was. If someone remembers it differently, it's because they were caught up in the heat of the moment and blasted at a high volume that probably made it difficult if not impossible to decipher the details as well as you can after the fact, just in the same way athletes, coaches and sports commentators can make insightful comments about certain plays or games after the fact when watching replays.

Eh, but it's NOT reality, any more than those "doctored" recordings are.
On a cellphone recording, you already have "doctoring" going on, in the form of the choices the software is making to make the product listenable. This involves heavy amounts of limiting and compression, as well as EQ.

With a well mixed soundboard or room recording, you have, theoretically, a skilled human audio engineer attempting to put you back in that place, using the same types of effects to emulate how the voice and other instruments sounded in those spaces, in that moment. Unless there is some kind of overdubbing, all of this amounts to simply a much more human (and much "better") digital recreation of that "reality" than the raw cellphone.

Sure... a cellphone can tell you "did James hit the note? Was he sharp or flat?" but that's seldom all we're looking for in a performance. There's definitely legitimacy to that. But, that's not all we're looking for. In many instances a flat vocal can even sound good and a "perfect" one can sound uncanny. Coltrane's intonation sucked. Etc.  People don't comment on which notes James hit, which were flat, which were right on, etc... people comment on how he sounded. And that is a very different thing that you can often not tell from a cellphone video.

[nobloodyname]

Sure... a cellphone can tell you "did James hit the note? Was he sharp or flat?" but that's seldom all we're looking for in a performance.

"Hit the notes" and the majority of the noise goes away.

[gzarruk]

Not trying to keep beating this horse, but just to give some perspective: I don't work in the music business or anything like that, but part of my job involves working closely with a music producer and audio engineer, I'm also a musician (not professional). Can't tell you how many times, I lost count, I would be present as a listener when a recording is going or during a live show and the vocals sounded quite nice in the moment, great atmosphere, great time, you name it. Then, when it comes time to properly mix and work on it the vocals sound nothing like I remember (lots of flat notes, etc). There's just something that happens when you're listening to it in real time that somehow masks these imperfections, but that doesn't mean those aren't there. A recording, whether it's properly mic-ed or just a phone recording, will give you much more of a "this is how it actually sounded" perspective than just "I was there and had a great time".

[WilliamMunny]

Not trying to keep beating this horse, but just to give some perspective: I don't work in the music business or anything like that, but part of my job involves working closely with a music producer and audio engineer, I'm also a musician (not professional). Can't tell you how many times, I lost count, I would be present as a listener when a recording is going or during a live show and the vocals sounded quite nice in the moment, great atmosphere, great time, you name it. Then, when it comes time to properly mix and work on it the vocals sound nothing like I remember (lots of flat notes, etc). There's just something that happens when you're listening to it in real time that somehow masks these imperfections, but that doesn't mean those aren't there. A recording, whether it's properly mic-ed or just a phone recording, will give you much more of a "this is how it actually sounded" perspective than just "I was there and had a great time".

Begs the question: should the band worry about meeting the expectations of the people who paid money to attend, or the people dissecting the cell-phone video months after the fact?

Yes, you can argue that the cell-phone video may compel someone to buy a ticket somewhere down the line, but the musician in me feels like the 'moment' is paramount. If I remember a show feeling great and the audience enjoyed it, I honestly don't care what the recordings tell me after the fact.

[Kwyjibo]

I was there and had a great time is what's important in a live setting.

[Lethean]

Begs the question: should the band worry about meeting the expectations of the people who paid money to attend, or the people dissecting the cell-phone video months after the fact?

Yes, you can argue that the cell-phone video may compel someone to buy a ticket somewhere down the line, but the musician in me feels like the 'moment' is paramount. If I remember a show feeling great and the audience enjoyed it, I honestly don't care what the recordings tell me after the fact.

And

I was there and had a great time is what's important in a live setting.

Are more or less what I was trying to say, but not as well.  I was there and had a great time (and thoroughly enjoyed James LaBrie's performance) at all of the many DT shows I've been to.

[Animal]

The interview with JLB and JP linked here - about why JP would never replace James - made me wonder: do you know any band that would do just that? I mean, replacing their singer just because he got older, his voice rougher and live performances less consistent. I can't think of any - but I am not the most knowledgeable rock band trivia guy around.

On the other hand, I can readily think of a few bands whose singers were fired for being a pain in the ass (Queensryche, Yes....).

[Ben_Jamin]

The interview with JLB and JP linked here - about why JP would never replace James - made me wonder: do you know any band that would do just that? I mean, replacing their singer just because he got older, his voice rougher and live performances less consistent. I can't think of any - but I am not the most knowledgeable rock band trivia guy around.

On the other hand, I can readily think of a few bands whose singers were fired for being a pain in the ass (Queensryche, Yes....).

The closest I can think of is Kansas with Steve Walsh. But from what I read on wiki, he retired from the band.

The only way I can see Dream Theater continuing without JLB, is if JLB decides to retire and there is still a large enough interest in the band to want to perform, JP and the rest of the guys still could go on with a different vocalist. There is one singer I can think of that could possibly be good in Dream Theater, that is Mike Mills from Toehider.

[Herrick]

A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible.  A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.

Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"

Absolutely! And it's a shock, but it's reality. Just because I hear myself differently doesn't mean that's what reality is.

The same is true regarding audience recordings of concerts. Yeah it's not going to reflect everything perfectly from the standpoint of being there and feeling the excitement and the super loud volume reverberating through the venue and your body, but that doesn't mean that the recordings don't accurately reflect what James' performance was like. If he hit a sour note, a crummy cellphone recording is not going to magnify that any more than a professional multi-track recording. So like it or not, audience recordings are a very good indicator of what his (and the band's) performance was. If someone remembers it differently, it's because they were caught up in the heat of the moment and blasted at a high volume that probably made it difficult if not impossible to decipher the details as well as you can after the fact, just in the same way athletes, coaches and sports commentators can make insightful comments about certain plays or games after the fact when watching replays.

Not trying to keep beating this horse, but just to give some perspective: I don't work in the music business or anything like that, but part of my job involves working closely with a music producer and audio engineer, I'm also a musician (not professional). Can't tell you how many times, I lost count, I would be present as a listener when a recording is going or during a live show and the vocals sounded quite nice in the moment, great atmosphere, great time, you name it. Then, when it comes time to properly mix and work on it the vocals sound nothing like I remember (lots of flat notes, etc). There's just something that happens when you're listening to it in real time that somehow masks these imperfections, but that doesn't mean those aren't there. A recording, whether it's properly mic-ed or just a phone recording, will give you much more of a "this is how it actually sounded" perspective than just "I was there and had a great time".

I have to agree with Setlist Scotty & Gzarruk. I've watched/listened to many of those YouTube recordings which were non-professional & professionally recorded where LaBrie just did not sound good. I've only seen the band twice and LaBrie sounded good but I find it hard to believe that I just happened to catch two of his better performances.

Back to the original topic, I think the band should both downtune & modify the melodies if they want to keep doing those older songs. Or don't because LaBrie will probably sound good if you're there in the moment 

[Glasser]

Fuck James and his whiney ass voice. He blows, fire him now.












































..... Just kidding! 
Still really loving his performance on View.

[genome]

I kinda liked when they tuned I&W down a half-step, it gave the songs a different flavour/energy.

Anyway, I'm surprised they haven't done it again, Metallica did it in the 90's and never looked back.

[wolfking]

I kinda liked when they tuned I&W down a half-step, it gave the songs a different flavour/energy.

Anyway, I'm surprised they haven't done it again, Metallica did it in the 90's and never looked back.

Yep, and James still sounds fantastic.  Certainly helped his voice long term.

[LCArenas]

My two cents on the Amsterdam Show vid:

• Honestly James doesn't sound that bad, and I think he sounds like he may have had some kind of vocal cord inflammation or fatigue that he's recovering from. He sounds struggling to keep the notes and his singing sounds softer and with a lot of breath, as if he fears to lose control of it if he did it with more force or a brighter tone. But he is on pitch, and reaches the notes just fine. He doesn't force it to reach notes he knows he won't pull off.
• The mixing (Or the way the show was recorded) doesn't help him. He sounds way back in the mix with even the backing vocals sounding louder, and that doesn't help the "breathy" way he's singing at all.

I don't think he's finished or on his way to retirement at all, and I hope he can get his cords a bit back on form in future tours. Maybe a bit of rest is what he needs (Constant singing in live shows 2-3 hours a day can destroy your vocal cords in ways you can't imagine, let alone shows where you have to sing Dream Theater songs ). And one thing I know-He knows the state of his voice right now and is trying to do the best with what he's got. You can't say that about other rock singers (I'm looking right at you, Axl)

[Dream Team]

He rested for two years during Covid.

[Ben_Jamin]

He rested for two years during Covid.

I feel he rested too much and his voice is just getting used to singing this much again.

[wolfking]

He rested for two years during Covid.

I feel he rested too much and his voice is just getting used to singing this much again.

Is this an actual thing?  How much does he need to 'get used' to it again?

[Ben_Jamin]

He rested for two years during Covid.

I feel he rested too much and his voice is just getting used to singing this much again.

Is this an actual thing?  How much does he need to 'get used' to it again?

I don't know, I'm not JLB. I do not know how JLB's vocal conditions are and how things affect his vocals, many things can possibly have an effect on his vocals.

I agree with you though in that something needs to be addressed about his vocal consistency. Since, I am not as upset about the backing vocals being high in the mix, I am more astonished that he didn't sing a vocal section which I consider one of his best vocal moments. But also, many vocalists don't even sing some parts and have the audience sing instead. How would people feel if JLB did this more and let the audience sing some of the more difficult parts while he still sings the rest? I do have to give it up to JLB for singing as much as he does for so long.

[geeeemo]

I feel like he always is better as time goes on, during a tour or even a show. Especially the shows. He sounds much better after a few songs. The last 2 tours I have seen shows at the beginning and end of the tours, and felt both times the latter was better.

[javidt]

I feel like he always is better as time goes on, during a tour or even a show. Especially the shows. He sounds much better after a few songs. The last 2 tours I have seen shows at the beginning and end of the tours, and felt both times the latter was better.

Agree. During the distance over time tour he sounded much better during the scenes set than during the first set despite of being older songs.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Interesting that some are even 'diagnosing' various health problems that they've made up out of thin air without any word from the man himself. Is it vocal chord inflammation, or just some random vocal chord injury? Since he has said nothing of the sort you should assume he is just fine physically and ageing like all of us are. Maybe the arm-chair doctors are finally waking up to what's been incredibly obvious to most who have been following the band. His live performances are very shaky very consistently. It's just becoming all but impossible to deny now and I guess some want to have hope it'll get better (i.e., when he heals from a made up injury he hasn't said he has).

[LCArenas]

Hey, it's all speculation, man. We're no authority at all because we don't know James personally (Or are that close to him) nor do we know about how his voice was affected through and after the pandemic (Ben_Jamin post might be accurate as well, since he was fairly inactive during it and is getting used to touring), but as a Physician and a singing aficionado myself this is what people that usually have had some kind of vocal injury tend to present over time, so it's my guess.
Again- it's all speculation, and your opinion of his performance being inconsistent over the last years is also equally valid.

Either way the result is the same: If possible, we hope he gets back in form and recovers.

[Skeever]

Interesting that some are even 'diagnosing' various health problems that they've made up out of thin air without any word from the man himself. Is it vocal chord inflammation, or just some random vocal chord injury? Since he has said nothing of the sort you should assume he is just fine physically and ageing like all of us are. Maybe the arm-chair doctors are finally waking up to what's been incredibly obvious to most who have been following the band. His live performances are very shaky very consistently. It's just becoming all but impossible to deny now and I guess some want to have hope it'll get better (i.e., when he heals from a made up injury he hasn't said he has).

With all due respect to those here, this entire thread is pretty much just people shooting the shit, and talking out of their asses. People who haven't been to shows personally recently, diminish all the good things they see and want to diagnose the guy with a problem based on a few shitty cellphone videos. I'm sorry if I sound angry, I'm not "above it" and I've done it myself to some of my favorites, probably James himself as well at some point, but it's annoying. Go to a show, and complain then if it wasn't to your liking. But this whole thing where we're dissecting YouTube clips just isn't for me. 

[MoraWintersoul]

This argument springs eternal. I was at a show, I paid close attention and I heard exactly what you can hear on the clips. I don't mean to be short with anyone, it could be that I have an exceptional ear, but I don't think that's likely. I managed to have a good time and listen closely at the same time, with my averagely tuned ears, and that's what I heard. If you look up clips for a variety of bands with more consistent singers at the moment, you'll find them sounding how you expect them to sound, even though they're cellphone clips. If cellphone clips are a big problem, go to the pro-shot show(s) of the tour or go to Dime and look up a really good audio bootleg. But I think *clips* are a good representation of reality in 2022. Really they were decent enough in quality in 2014 already, from a good phone, but back then we weren't talking about them so much because James was way more consistent and we didn't need to circle around the James haters by asking "well have YOU been to the show" so often. Now they're great quality and people upload from every show and you can hear a frankly excellent representation of how every show looked and sounded. My show was exactly what I expected from the clips I saw.

[Samsara]

With all due respect to those here, this entire thread is pretty much just people shooting the shit, and talking out of their asses.

Frankly, as the thread starter, that was NOT what was intended with the thread. The intent was to acknowledge that James is out there giving it his all, and what can be done to help him navigate singing a lot of the songs from the band's earlier material. It was meant to be a thread of positivity, while admitting that JLB's performances were, as they've always been, very inconsistent.

JLB's vocals are some of the most scrutinized in music. The guy goes out there and kills himself every night and gives us the best we can. My thought was...what do the musicians on the forum think can be done to help him out. As I was told, the tunes are already a half-step dropped (and some I hear easily, others I missed), and there's not much else the band can do except not to play those tracks.

What folks have done with this thread since then, is contrary to the reason it was started.

[MoraWintersoul]

JLB's vocals are some of the most scrutinized in music.

I would also challenge this argument. James just has a lot of haters because they're not blessed with the naturally elevated taste of us who appreciate his timbre but aside from a few vocal ones, they're not the ones going through show videos. Us DT fans are, though. We're the ones scrutinizing him, because we see him do badly, and then we're the ones praising him when he does great. The general audience's opinion always stays the same at "don't like 'im", the same as it did for Geddy Lee or Andi Deris or other "acquired taste" vocalists in prog/metal.

[ZirconBlue]

I was listening to one of the Official Bootlegs recently.  I think it was the '98 show that Bruce Dickinson guested on.  At the start of the show (first track was Lines in the Sand), James sounded really good.  A few tracks in he hits the second verse of Take the Time and his voice cracks, and it seems to affect him for most of the rest of the show.  I'm not sure if that was a physical, psychological, or both, but it suggests that avoiding TTT (or at least that verse) might be a good idea going forward.

[Setlist Scotty]

I'm not sure if that was a physical, psychological, or both, but it suggests that avoiding TTT (or at least that verse) might be a good idea going forward.

...which is why MP saw to it that it was skipped when they played the song in later tours while he was still in the band. Same with Voices.

[Elite]

Shame though; Take the Time and Voices are two of their best tracks!

[geeeemo]

I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes.