Dropping the tuning of songs to help Labrie out?

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.

This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.

It does not fully compensate and thicker strings feel and sound different, tension aside. I have guitars I tune down that also have thicker gauges and it never 100% feels like standard tuning with your original gauge. It certainly can make the tension similar, but it's never exact. It isn't 'nonsense' in the slightest.

Also there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E.

[Glasser]

They will never replace James. Nor should they.

100% hard disagree. No disrespect to you.

I don't think "they will never replace James" is a hot take. Why would you hard disagree with that?

I never thought Portnoy would be replaced. You don't think DT can survive with a new voice? If it gets to the point where he becomes terrible live, why not replace him? Don't forget they were considering this years back and he stepped it up. I dig his voice but tuning down or writing to compensate him is just insane. That said, I love every album he's done and have always been a fan of him. All I'm saying is if he can't do it anymore, move on. Not one fan here will stop listening even if you say you would now.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? 

Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.

Unfortunately the time to replace has long expired. At this point unless he is totally shitting the bed live and in the studio-- and even then, I dunno-- he is here until the end. I agree with you it would be best to hear a fresher invigorated voice that doesn't have as much baggage, but I just think that window was closed, especially with MP out of the band. I would personally also like to hear a voice that sounds a little less era-specific.

Remember: the performances and negative fan feedback have been far worse than they are today and he still did not get replaced.

[Glasser]

Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? 

Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.

Unfortunately the time to replace has long expired. At this point unless he is totally shitting the bed live and in the studio-- and even then, I dunno-- he is here until the end. I agree with you it would be best to hear a fresher invigorated voice that doesn't have as much baggage, but I just think that window was closed, especially with MP out of the band. I would personally also like to hear a voice that sounds a little less era-specific.

Remember: the performances and negative fan feedback have been far worse than they are today and he still did not get replaced.

What you say is possible but if the band feels he can't do it but they still have more music in them they probably blow us away with a fresh voice. I'm sure they hear the fans and probably this forum even, but these guys are extremely far from stupid and when and if the time comes they will upgrade and make us all on board with it.

[TAC]

James is still outstanding on their albums though. And live, I think it really depends on how they can manage his rest. He has been pretty damn good on the AVFTTOTW tour. Started off shaky, but he found his groove.

[Glasser]

I love his vocals on the new album. This is all hypothetical. I think they would move on if they had to. That's all I'm saying. I'm not looking to lynch the dude but James will not dictate when DT calls it quits.

[Elite]

But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.

This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.

It does not fully compensate and thicker strings feel and sound different, tension aside. I have guitars I tune down that also have thicker gauges and it never 100% feels like standard tuning with your original gauge. It certainly can make the tension similar, but it's never exact. It isn't 'nonsense' in the slightest.

Also there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E.

Honestly, this still feels like a non issue to me. Of course, when you would change from 0.09's to 0.12's in the same tuning, it's going to be very different, but you adjust to a small step basically instantly (like 0.10 to 0.09).  Likewise, an acoustic guitar feels and plays different from an electric guitar and a different shaped body might throw you off, because you can't hold it your preferred way, but the same electric guitar tuned lower but with thicker strings to compensate.. that's really negligible.

I don't understand your last point? Of course it's going to sound different. Thicker strings will sound different regardless of whether you're going to downtune or not. Eb is a different key, so yeah, it will sound different. Like others have said in this thread though (and for the purpose of staying slightly on topic); for the untrained ear, it wouldn't matter. They would recognise the song and not realise it's been tuned down a half step.

[wolfking]

Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W.

This was my thinking when I finally listened to that 2017 concert a few months back.  I think going a full step down wouldn't make a drastic enough change for James to warrant the drastic change of the lower tuning, if that makes sense.

Saying that, I'd be fine with them playing Learning to Live a full step down then other songs in the catalog in their regular tuning that are easier for James.

[wolfking]

But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.

This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.

It does not fully compensate and thicker strings feel and sound different, tension aside. I have guitars I tune down that also have thicker gauges and it never 100% feels like standard tuning with your original gauge. It certainly can make the tension similar, but it's never exact. It isn't 'nonsense' in the slightest.

Also there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E.

I'm sure JP would manage mate, he's kind of a pro.  It really wouldn't make that much difference though.  What about bands that play in different tunings all the time? 

And true, there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E, because they are not the same.  They are a semitone apart.

[MoraWintersoul]

I think they are doing things to accommodate James - they're doing songs that have less singing and more instrumental breaks, songs that don't go so high, the backing tapes have been ramped up a bit, etc. He still sounded like he was on 40% battery at my show this year, and the more time went on during the set, the worse he got. The show reviews all say it was hard to hear what was going on due to the famously bad arena sound at this place and the amount of backing tapes and how his voice was placed in the mix, but imo if you have good ears and you were specifically listening for that, you would have found James not sounding his best.

If his only problem was the highest notes, they'd probably just go down a semitone on everything, since they showed willingness to do it for the IAW Beyond tour, but that didn't help him much. It's just that singing Dream Theater songs is hard and his level of vocal agility is going down with age, despite his work to get the best he can out of his voice. He probably also likes the way he sounds as well, and thinks all the notes he does hit make up for some bad phrasing and odd turns here and there.

I don't think there's a situation to be addressed necessarily. There will be, what, maybe three or four more DT tours tops? On the show he was also warm and engaging in his own slightly stilted but funny way and everyone seemed to be having a good time. It's nice to see Dream Theater from up close and there's many aspects of the show that aren't exactly the same as they were, not just James' voice.

I wouldn't put anything (up to replacing JP) past DT, but clearly this is just how this is going to be happening, with James receiving maximum help that the regular concert goer wouldn't necessarily notice so much - conservative changes in tuning, backing tapes, setlist choices, et cetera.

[KevShmev]

Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? 

Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.

No.  I find the whole "hey, let's find a younger singer who sounds a lot like our old singer did way back when" trend fairly uninteresting, as the band just ends up sounding like a vastly inferior version of their former selves.  Imagine if VH had went out of their way to find a David Lee Roth-soundalike in the mid 80s instead of getting Sammy Hagar.

JLB's live struggles in recent years are no secret, but as a selfish fan, I'd rather they call it a day than fire him and get someone else just keep the touring train going.  He still sounds fine in the studio (no matter how many takes and/or studio magic it probably takes), and I hope to never hear a Dream Theater studio album in the future where James LaBrie is not the singer.

[svisser]

James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?

my thoughts exactly. It is both a curse and a blessing to be the aging singer in a band of virtuosos.

This has always been my frustration with the fans. If we pass off on Ian Gillian, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson and the likes, then who cares if James can't sing like before? IMO, he hit the F# on Learning to Live, no one else. Sure he can't hit it anymore,  but neither is Bruce able to do the scream in Number of the Beast, or Ian able to do the falsettos on Highway Star, or DLR able to do any of his screams from early VH albums. They are all icons and important to the evolution of music! What matters is going to a show and seeing the artists that helped define genres and pave the way for others.

[jammindude]

NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass, and listing that has-been (who arguably was never good in the first place) along with the other greats is criminal.

Why not just throw Stephen Pearcy on that list?

[Elite]

Who is Vince Neil?

[TAC]

NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass, and listing that has-been (who arguably was never good in the first place) along with the other greats is criminal.

Why not just throw Stephen Pearcy on that list?

Stephen Pearcy blew chunks in his prime.

[Kram]

I don't know, I'm listening to this Live in Berlin, which was only 3 years ago, and James sounds awesome!  Good James is just about my favorite singer ever - and bad James, well is bad.  He's always been an enigma though.

[TAC]

I don't know, I'm listening to this Live in Berlin, which was only 3 years ago, and James sounds awesome! 

Yup, very solid.

[svisser]

NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass

I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this.

[TAC]

NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass

I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this.

I know a guy that bought the $3500 seats down front and he said that Motley Crue was awesome, and that after they played, the energy was sucked out of the crowd for Def Leppard.

I honestly don't understand why anyone would go to this show.

I did see Motley Crue 3 times in the 80's and they were great live.

[Glasser]

Who is Vince Neil?

 

[jammindude]

NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass, and listing that has-been (who arguably was never good in the first place) along with the other greats is criminal.

Why not just throw Stephen Pearcy on that list?

Stephen Pearcy blew chunks in his prime.

So did Vince!   

[jammindude]

NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass

I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this.

They do that for Bon Jovi as well…and his lame vocals are well documented.

At least Bon Jovi has a better track record than MC does. There is no one in existence that gets the “LEGEND” tag with a spottier catalog than MC and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. (Kiss would be a distant 2nd…but even they have six undisputed classic albums, which MC never had).  I guess I just feel like they are the Kardasians of the metal world. They are more popular for their celebrity status than their music talent.

[Elite]

Who is Vince Neil?

 

Yes, I know that might look funny or ‘witty’ or whatever. I had to look up who that was. Wasn’t surprised I didn’t know.

[nikatapi]

I don't know, I'm listening to this Live in Berlin, which was only 3 years ago, and James sounds awesome!  Good James is just about my favorite singer ever - and bad James, well is bad.  He's always been an enigma though.

Well my view on this is that this release has undergone some pretty serious editing on the vocal side of things. As is the case with Distant Memories of course.
Not that i have a problem with that (if it's not too obvious).

Truth is i love James and his voice, ageing unfortunately seems to have caught up with his (very heavily tired from all years of extreme touring) voice. But i wouldn't consider an album without him a Dream Theater album.

I might be completely off base here, but i feel that apart from the natural decline of his voice, he hasn't done much (apart from his routine) to work with a vocal coach or something in the recent years. Starting from the Astonishing tour, his voice has been on a steady decline, and i've seen probably all sorts of bootlegs that exist from every tour.

On Distance Over Time, it was the first time i thought his voice sounded strained and tired even on the studio. On the last album, i like most of his delivery, and it's good that the vocal lines are much more down to earth so that helps.

Now for the touring part, there's some elaborate mixing with the backing track, so he can "cheat" on some demanding lines without sounding too much like a playback.

I don't know if a new vocal coach could help him regain some of his ability, and i still admire the hard work he has put for the band all these years.

[Stadler]

James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?

my thoughts exactly. It is both a curse and a blessing to be the aging singer in a band of virtuosos.

This has always been my frustration with the fans. If we pass off on Ian Gillian, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson and the likes, then who cares if James can't sing like before? IMO, he hit the F# on Learning to Live, no one else. Sure he can't hit it anymore,  but neither is Bruce able to do the scream in Number of the Beast, or Ian able to do the falsettos on Highway Star, or DLR able to do any of his screams from early VH albums. They are all icons and important to the evolution of music! What matters is going to a show and seeing the artists that helped define genres and pave the way for others.

Ian Gillan, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson...

Mercedes, Yugo, BMW...

Steak, Ramen Noodles, Lobster...


And by the by, Bruce CAN do the scream; I saw it my own self in Hartford (and that show is on YouToob).  Even back in '87, Vince was doing his "first word... mumble, mumble, last word" dance with most of the Crüe songs.

[jammindude]

James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?

my thoughts exactly. It is both a curse and a blessing to be the aging singer in a band of virtuosos.

This has always been my frustration with the fans. If we pass off on Ian Gillian, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson and the likes, then who cares if James can't sing like before? IMO, he hit the F# on Learning to Live, no one else. Sure he can't hit it anymore,  but neither is Bruce able to do the scream in Number of the Beast, or Ian able to do the falsettos on Highway Star, or DLR able to do any of his screams from early VH albums. They are all icons and important to the evolution of music! What matters is going to a show and seeing the artists that helped define genres and pave the way for others.

Ian Gillan, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson...

Mercedes, Yugo, BMW...

Steak, Ramen Noodles, Lobster...


And by the by, Bruce CAN do the scream; I saw it my own self in Hartford (and that show is on YouToob).  Even back in '87, Vince was doing his "first word... mumble, mumble, last word" dance with most of the Crüe songs.

Exactly.

And  at the word association.

[Stadler]

NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass

I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this.

They do that for Bon Jovi as well…and his lame vocals are well documented.

At least Bon Jovi has a better track record than MC does. There is no one in existence that gets the “LEGEND” tag with a spottier catalog than MC and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. (Kiss would be a distant 2nd…but even they have six undisputed classic albums, which MC never had).  I guess I just feel like they are the Kardasians of the metal world. They are more popular for their celebrity status than their music talent.

I strongly disagree with the Kiss comment, but agree wholeheartedly with Crüe.  I saw them on the Dr. Feelgood tour and it was an excellent show, but they're NOT a great live band in the same sense that the Stones are, or Kiss is, or whatever.  There's a difference. 

[jammindude]

I was thinking specifically of “percentage of catalog” where Kiss has a larger body to draw from. And I did say they were a “distant 2nd”

Is there anyone else with the “legend” tag that has a really very spotty whole career body of work?  I don’t even like the Stones, but I will admit that probably 75% of their albums have been fairly well received.

I love AC/DC, but if I’m being honest, they could probably be mentioned in the discussion as well (though not nearly as bad as MC).

And when I say “spotty”, I’m thinking more about reception than sales. Even among the MC faithful, the first two albums are (rightfully) considered classics, but TOP and GGG are considered to be very substandard albums with a few classic songs peppered in to keep them from being terrible. DF is considered somewhat of a comeback, but then what? The self titled? Generation Swine? New Tattoo? Seriously…I don’t see how these guys made it on the strength of 2 (maybe 3) classic albums making up less than 50% of their body of work.

Ok…rant over. Honestly, not too many things annoy me anymore, but MC annoys me. And maybe Ozzy a bit.

[Stadler]

I was thinking specifically of “percentage of catalog” where Kiss has a larger body to draw from. And I did say they were a “distant 2nd”

Is there anyone else with the “legend” tag that has a really very spotty whole career body of work?  I don’t even like the Stones, but I will admit that probably 75% of their albums have been fairly well received.

I love AC/DC, but if I’m being honest, they could probably be mentioned in the discussion as well (though not nearly as bad as MC).

And when I say “spotty”, I’m thinking more about reception than sales. Even among the MC faithful, the first two albums are (rightfully) considered classics, but TOP and GGG are considered to be very substandard albums with a few classic songs peppered in to keep them from being terrible. DF is considered somewhat of a comeback, but then what? The self titled? Generation Swine? New Tattoo? Seriously…I don’t see how these guys made it on the strength of 2 (maybe 3) classic albums making up less than 50% of their body of work.

Ok…rant over. Honestly, not too many things annoy me anymore, but MC annoys me. And maybe Ozzy a bit.

IF the Stones is "75%" (given their early records that were put out using the 60's mentality of a couple originals and a ton of covers) then Kiss' is at least 75%.  If you're a fan, the only duds are really "Carnival of Souls", perhaps "Hot In The Shade" (though the tour made up for it) and maybe - MAYBE - "Unmasked".  I'm even hesitating to put in The Elder here, since it's sort of gained a cult status and never was as bad as it was made out to be.  The costumes sucked but that's not the music.

I think there are a couple bands like this. Guns and Roses. I LOVE them, but really, three albums of new material and they're in the RnRHoF?  Green Day; they may not be legends, per se, but still.  Tom Petty.  Bob Seger.  Steve Miller.  All have EXCELLENT Greatest Hits collections, but is anyone really grooving to their ENTIRE catalogue?

One other: I think they ARE legends, but if we're just talking about CATALOGUES, the Dead.   I'm not sure they have even ONE classic studio album.  MAYBE Aoxomoxoa or Workingman's Dead.

[Glasser]

Who is Vince Neil?

 

Yes, I know that might look funny or ‘witty’ or whatever. I had to look up who that was. Wasn’t surprised I didn’t know.

When I first heard Too Fast For Love by Motley Crue in 8th grade I couldn't stop playing it. Still playing it today.

[TAC]

Well, I had a Yugo and I don't like lobster.

Way too much Vince Neil bashing going on. I mean in their prime they were one of the best arena rock acts going. I realize he's all fucked now, but 80's Vince was pretty good. He had a great voice.

[Glasser]

Amen Tim!

[Stadler]

On record, maybe. Live, I'm not a fan.  I always get the impression he's phoning it in.

[TAC]

On record, maybe. Live, I'm not a fan.  I always get the impression he's phoning it in.

He's phoning it in alright. Phoning in a pizza order.

[Dream Team]

That’s a GOOD pic of him. But yeah he shouldn’t be charging people to sing at this point.