Dropping the tuning of songs to help Labrie out?

[jimgolf]

This an example setlist I kind of thought through that should be manageable for James based on the songs vocal difficulty and how James has performed them in the past. ITPOE pt 1/ANTR/TCOT are other good choices but they’ve been played recently so I’m not sure they’d want to pull them out again.

On the Backs of Angels
Panic Attack
Room 137
Stream of Consciousness/The Dance of Eternity
Solitary Shell/When Your Times Has Come
The Dark Eternal Night/Awaken the Master
A Rite of Passage/Constant Motion
Hollow Years/The Answer Lies Within
Outcry/Lost Not Forgotten
Along for the Ride/Chosen
Erotomania/Hells Kitchen/Enigma Machine/Ytse Jam
The Silent Man
Invisible Monster/Peruvian Skies
Wait For Sleep
Breaking All Illusions
—————-encore
As I Am/The Looking Glass
Pale Blue Dot

[wolfking]

Disappear!

Yeah solid.  They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.

You want James to Disappear? I can't see the band doing another album with him if his live performance is horrendous.

Wait, please explain?  You think they will ditch him after the tour or something?

[hefdaddy42]

I'm all for adding Outcry to the set!!

Same

[Glasser]

Disappear!

Yeah solid.  They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.

You want James to Disappear? I can't see the band doing another album with him if his live performance is horrendous.

Wait, please explain?  You think they will ditch him after the tour or something?

If James is sounding like ass on this tour why would DT do another album with him to tour with him again? I just can't see them being ok with continuing with a vocalist who can't perform anymore, but if they're selling tickets regardless maybe they don't care, who knows.

[KevShmev]

If James is sounding like ass on this tour why would DT do another album with him to tour with him again? I just can't see them being ok with continuing with a vocalist who can't perform anymore, but if they're selling tickets regardless maybe they don't care, who knows.

JLB has been in the band now, though, for over 30 years, and I suspect they feel bad for his struggles, not to mention there has to be a kinship, a sense of loyalty, when it comes to the relationship between him and the other band members.  Not that you said this, but they don't strike me as a "Oh, he can't do it anymore, let's fire him" type of band.

[emtee]

Yep. I think JP is so loyal and genuinely human that he would pull the plug before ousting JLB.

[wolfking]

https://youtu.be/0s1ojki6JBA

This video shows JP would never fire him.  Check towards the end with the question about superpowers.

[Elite]

I'm not even sure which thread to put this..
I was watching the Amsterdam show tonight..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpsiXS_iUG8

It's brilliantly shot. Very steady and the sound is amazing.

So I want to highlight that but....


It's a brutal show for James.

This is actually the show I went to

Did you catch the two or three times James entered like half a bar or an entire section too early? This completely baffled me. It's one thing to sing in or out of tune, but to actually sing entire phrases off beat or in the wrong part of the song.. how does that even happen?

[Elite]

I definitely would not consider James LaBrie to be a very technical singer.

He would not have been able to give us the music we know and love all this time if he were not.

... what the hell? That doesn't even make sense.

As one who comes from a classical background, his level of proficiency for someone outside the classical genre is what initially impressed me about him. I knew this was a well-trained singer who took his art very seriously. And as DT is a band that is levels above all others, this aspect was a perfect fit.

Well, I frankly doubt that he 'takes his art seriously' or else he would make sure whatever he's singing would be more fitting with the state of his voice at the moment. If he does indeed take it seriously, he would not like the way he sounds at the moment, because he simply can't deliver night after night. He needs to do something (change vocal lines, choose different songs, something else entirely), because at the moment it's easy to not take him seriously.

And let me clarify that I'm not here just to 'bash on' James LaBrie. Like many others, his voice is one of the reasons I initially fell in love with Dream Theater's music.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Disappear!

Yeah solid.  They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.

You want James to Disappear? I can't see the band doing another album with him if his live performance is horrendous.

Wait, please explain?  You think they will ditch him after the tour or something?

If James is sounding like ass on this tour why would DT do another album with him to tour with him again? I just can't see them being ok with continuing with a vocalist who can't perform anymore, but if they're selling tickets regardless maybe they don't care, who knows.

I am not saying it is as simple as this, but a few things to consider. This is not a new guy who has bombed the first week on the job. JLB has been with the band for what...30 years now? He has personal relationships with the band members and their families. It's not only a business relationship - a matter of selling tickets - but a personal one too. I do not think the core song song writers -- JP and JR -- are going to do anything to rock the ship. Most of the fan base is just happy to go see DT live and if that is the case, why create a personal and professional disaster? There is no chance JLB gets fired or quits regardless of performance at this point. Not saying I am happy about that, but we have probably 3-5 more albums left. Just let it roll a little longer. No waves.

Edit: as I have said before...it's been way worse than this and nothing happened.

[wolfking]

He's been worse than he currently is now?

[Animal]

He's been worse than he currently is now?

I think most fans would agree that he has been in the worst vocal shape ever in the last couple of years. But he did have periods of return to form - after the drop in the late 90's, he found his footing again in 2000's and kept getting better all the way till about 2013-2014 (No doubnt that Live at Lunapark or Breaking the Fourth Wall are to some extent overdubbed but the bootlegs show he was in great form nevertheless. After that, it went downhill again.

Unlike crystalstars17, I believe it really might have been just the wear and tear catching up with him finally, not bad technical habits formed because of  playing multiple characters in The Astonishing. The thing about all these (mainly opera) singers who keep their voices into their 60's or 70's is that they usually don't sing all that much and all that often - they might vocalize every day but there is a difference between that and a real performance. DT touring schedule, extremely demanding vocal lines and length of sets would destroy any singer sooner or later.

Not saying that JLB didn't have some bad habits - but overall, he was always a singer with good fundamentals. It just seems to me that a lot of his critics who compare him unfavorably to other great singers forget that while he declined more than a norm, he has possibly had to do a lot more than any other singer.

[deggs37]

It's fun to speculate. But there is just no way anybody in the band is getting replaced at this point - unless they voluntarily leave. They are nearly 40 years into their career, getting a new singer will do them no good at all. Fans know what to expect when they go to a DT show or buy an album.

[Lethean]

https://youtu.be/0s1ojki6JBA

This video shows JP would never fire him.  Check towards the end with the question about superpowers.

That was really cool Wolfking.  If JP was just saying that to be nice he did a good acting job.

[Skeever]

I'm not even sure which thread to put this..
I was watching the Amsterdam show tonight..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpsiXS_iUG8

It's brilliantly shot. Very steady and the sound is amazing.

So I want to highlight that but....


It's a brutal show for James.


Now I'm going to try and say this as...uninsulting as I can BUT.....
What is going on? This has not been a great tour for him.
Maybe he was sick. OK..But then hes been sick a lot.

I feel like this is simply not being prepared. I know the voice is an instrument and yadayadayada. But supposedly James is a PROFESSIONAL VOCALIST. Why can't he simply find a pocket to operate within? Does he not practice? It shouldn't be a crapshoot if the singer can sing when you buy a ticket to a concert. It's like he has NO strength. ZERO control.

I mean, Alice Cooper has a pocket and he still sounds pretty strong at 70something. Granted he's not singing the range needed for Dream Theater, but still. Professional. And does a hell of a lot more touring than DT does.

I don't know. It's just disappointing. I love James, and DT's music wouldn't be the same without him. But I have to ask...why is he where he is and is he really doing enough to master his craft? Some of the parts literally sounds like karaoke.

The show is shot fine, but the audio quality is terrible. How can you really evaluate James properly with this compression and the awful EQ on top of that?

As humans, we will ALWAYS cringe at vocals sounding off. Because they're part of our nature, it's the first thing we notice when it doesn't sound "right". That said, despite the audio quality, I don't think James sounds bad at all.

But, let's take a look at the comments.

Oh No No
3 months ago
I was there in front of Petrucci with my dad! This was one of the best concerts i’ve ever been to, amazing

DRG
4 months ago (edited)
First of all I just wanna say I was there and I enjoyed the whole show, DT is my life's band! Came from Spain just to watch the concert.
This said, I just wanna point out that JL entered too early two times... first at Bridges in the Sky (47:33) and then with The Count of Tuscany at (1:46:15). First time wasn't that serious and u could miss it, but the second time was pretty easy to notice if you knew the song. Anyway, great show, great people, love being in Netherland. Long life to DT!

Eraesr
4 months ago
I was there. Amazing show. The Petrucci/Rudess intermezzo in Count of Tuscany was magical.
Devin Townsend as support act was a phenomenal thing to happen as well, although I did get the idea that half the crowd had no idea who Devin Townsend is or had any idea of his sheer musical genius.

Eli Van wetten
4 months ago
I was there front row.

Devin Townsend was amazing.
He is probably my number one artist.

The thing that amazed me most was how good James LaBrie sounded.

I was at AFAS for the last tour in 2020 as well and he was not very good.

I don’t hate the sound of his voice but he did have trouble hitting the correct pitch and being somewhat understandable.

But he was very good here. Came in a bit too early a few times and messed up some lyrics, I love it.

They are still human and he did it like a champ

These were the first 4 I found - all of them saying it was a great show and that James sounded great, even if some were honest about mistakes. So when watching these cellphone videos I think we have to admit that if you weren't there, you're not getting the full picture.

[MirrorMask]

It's fun to speculate. But there is just no way anybody in the band is getting replaced at this point - unless they voluntarily leave. They are nearly 40 years into their career, getting a new singer will do them no good at all. Fans know what to expect when they go to a DT show or buy an album.

Never say never. It's easy to swear loyalty to each other until the end when things are good. But say that tomorrow Jordan Rudess feel suddenly old and tired and quits, or John Myung decides he wants to do something more with his life and retires.... is John Petrucci really willing to lay Dream Theater to rest?

At a certain point it's no longer just a carreer and a way to bring money to your family, it's a passion, it's a way of life. It's hard to let that go. So I'm sure the five of them are planning to last until the end, but I would not be 100% sure that, faced with the reality that Rudess, Myung or LaBrie are leaving for whatever reason, Petrucci's reaction would be "ah well, that's it I guess. I'll continue doing solo albums and G3".

If people who lose their husband or wife can eventually fall in love again and find a new partner, I guess Petrucci can as well find a new bassist or keyboard player rather than laying Dream Theater to rest forever if "tomorrow" one of them quits.

[Samsara]

My guess is that if anyone voluntarily leaves, it'll be MM. JR could choose to retire, sure. But I feel MM will be leaving on his own accord. Not based on anything except my own speculation after seeing how MP has mended fences with folks.

If I'm MM (again, this is me), I'd be...feeling odd that MP is back tight with everyone, and I'd certainly bring it up at a band meeting. It might even convince me to think about doing other things (I am sure MM could do anything he wanted to, given his stature). Because no matter how many records and years that MM has with DT, MP will always be the drummer of Dream Theater. And I am sure MM knew that going in, and still knows that now.

Again, purely my own speculation based on nothing by observing. I don't know anyone in the band, nor do I know anyone who would have any impact on their internal decision making/discussions as to the band's structure.

[wolfking]

My guess is that if anyone voluntarily leaves, it'll be MM. JR could choose to retire, sure. But I feel MM will be leaving on his own accord. Not based on anything except my own speculation after seeing how MP has mended fences with folks.

If I'm MM (again, this is me), I'd be...feeling odd that MP is back tight with everyone, and I'd certainly bring it up at a band meeting. It might even convince me to think about doing other things (I am sure MM could do anything he wanted to, given his stature). Because no matter how many records and years that MM has with DT, MP will always be the drummer of Dream Theater. And I am sure MM knew that going in, and still knows that now.

Again, purely my own speculation based on nothing by observing. I don't know anyone in the band, nor do I know anyone who would have any impact on their internal decision making/discussions as to the band's structure.

Interesting though.  If MM ever left or whatever, would MP come back with how JLB is currently performing?  I reckon he'd be the one to come back in, force setlist changes, make James change melodies and basically be up front with the issue head on.  As much of a control freak MP was, it wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.

[KevShmev]

Interesting though.  If MM ever left or whatever, would MP come back with how JLB is currently performing?  I reckon he'd be the one to come back in, force setlist changes, make James change melodies and basically be up front with the issue head on.  As much of a control freak MP was, it wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.

I think that could be one hair in the soup.  Even though JLB and Portnoy called a truce and hugged it out (metaphorically, or maybe even actually), I doubt James wants to go back to having Portnoy boss him around again when it comes to singing.

The other hair is Petrucci, who seems to really like being the main man in charge, and I doubt he wants to go back to having a co-leader, especially one as strong-willed and outspoken as Portnoy. 

[wolfking]

Interesting though.  If MM ever left or whatever, would MP come back with how JLB is currently performing?  I reckon he'd be the one to come back in, force setlist changes, make James change melodies and basically be up front with the issue head on.  As much of a control freak MP was, it wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.

I think that could be one hair in the soup.  Even though JLB and Portnoy called a truce and hugged it out (metaphorically, or maybe even actually), I doubt James wants to go back to having Portnoy boss him around again when it comes to singing.

The other hair is Petrucci, who seems to really like being the main man in charge, and I doubt he wants to go back to having a co-leader, especially one as strong-willed and outspoken as Portnoy.

All most likely the case.  I think JP could still benefit from MP's more in your face approach sometimes though.

[Glasser]

If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.

[Skeever]

If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.

What show did you go to?

[Glasser]

If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.

What show did you go to?

None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?

[geeeemo]

If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.

What show did you go to?

None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?

I saw the show 3 times. The first was in the first week of the tour. The entire band had a few moments that needed cleaning up. I saw them one week later, and it was great! My son can be critical of JLB, and had no criticisms. Then the last show was at the end of the US tour. Again, I had no issue with James at all. Hes not exactly the same as 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, but he is enjoyable.

[porcacultor]

Listening to the Amsterdam concert... Does Rob Halford get this kind of harsh reception from the fanbase? I honestly don't know, it's just that personally I've been put off by how he sings sometimes (but would never even think of him leaving Judas Priest) and LaBrie's performance here just doesn't tick me off. I'm not saying it's perfect, but he's so often sounding like he's having fun and, well, performing, I can't bring myself to see his performance as problematic. That's what I meant by "delivering", it's not like I'm some oblivious fanboy that ignores that he struggles on occasion. Personally, the joy in his performance just beats out the "inaccuracies".

[wolfking]

I can understand both Rguments with that middle section.  When I first heard the song, I was like WTF? and thought they had ruined a heavy ass song but as I said before, I like it now.

I will say, the ending section from James is one of the greatest moments ever for me in music.  Not many sections give me chills like that section does everytime.

[SeRoX]

If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.

What show did you go to?

None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?

Are you sure? You are clearly bashing James.

You can't take examples from some of the shows or parts of the tour to make such conclusions about James or any other player. He even had worse period vocally back in the days. But he countinues and give great run after. I'm one to admit that he is inconsistent, especially after TA tour but saying that he is selfish or questioning one's dignity? And you can't compare a guitar/bass player to voice since voice is an organic instrument and can easliy change day to day or effected so easliy for worse.

[Skeever]

If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.

What show did you go to?

None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?

Maybe you're not "bashing him", but your saying he doesn't deserve to do his job which provides him his livelihood anymore, based on a few cellphone clips you saw.

[KevShmev]

A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible.  A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.

I am not necessarily agreeing with Glasser that James should hang it up, but his reaction to the many clips online from this year's shows is more than fair.

[Podaar]

I'll bet this opinion is going to float like a brick...

Personally, I think AVFTTOTW is a fitting album to end Dream Theater with. At their age and level of success, I'd totally respect full on, peaceful, retirement. It's very difficult these days to make a living just being a recording artist, and the road can't be a lot of fun.

[Skeever]

A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible.  A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.

Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"

Cellphone mics are getting better all the time, but they are still not going to capture how that audio really sounded in the theater. Not even close.

For one, there's heavy compression going on. Secondly, there's no EQ or clarity to the recording. You've got an algorithm taking that blaring loud volume, squashing it, and then making some very crude EQ adjustments based on what it thinks will sound good coming out of that tiny speaker.

A non-overdubbed soundboard recording is much better to inform you of the quality of the performance, but even then further doctoring "needs" to happen to help emulate how that show sounded in the theater. This, a lot of times, will involved compression, reverb, EQ, etc., all to take that raw audio and reproduce the effect of it being played in a large auditorium.

[Dream Team]

No one's answered the question yet, if Myung couldn't play bass anymore would they retire him or just quit as a band?

[WilliamMunny]

No one's answered the question yet, if Myung couldn't play bass anymore would they retire him or just quit as a band?

Why can't he play bass? is an equally relevant question.

Tragic car accident? They might retire.

Tendonitis? I suspect they would stand by him and honor his wishes

That all said, I personally do not equate JM to JLB. You are welcome to disagree, but from my perspective as a fan and musician, singers are just, well, different.

[Glasser]

No one's answered the question yet, if Myung couldn't play bass anymore would they retire him or just quit as a band?

Why can't he play bass? is an equally relevant question.

Tragic car accident? They might retire.

Tendonitis? I suspect they would stand by him and honor his wishes

That all said, I personally do not equate JM to JLB. You are welcome to disagree, but from my perspective as a fan and musician, singers are just, well, different.

Its not a matter of different. I understand exactly what you mean as far as the vocal chords getting worn down with age. I'm looking at this as purely can you perform your instrument this late in the game to continue. DT's tunes are extremely demanding and you can't just "Mick Jagger" your way through the songs if you get my point. If god forbid Myung couldn't play anymore for any reason do you really think he would expect the band to quit? I highly doubt it. JLB has had his vocal struggles on and off over the years and he does his best to maintain his instrument and I respect that but what I'm saying is not bashing him, I'm simply noticing a huge decline and being precise is a trademark of DT. If they chose to go bluesy and loosen it up a bit James can light a cigarette on stage and have a good ole time but its fucking DREAM THEATER!!!! These dudes take shit seriously and I bet the conversation of what should we all do next is happening at some point. Maybe they do shorter tours, who knows, but its getting to that point and if they choose to write songs to accommodate James' voice that's up to them but they would still be expected to perform the "classics" live.

**** If JP couldn't solo the same anymore due to tendonitis or whatever, would you all be ok with him " One String Kerry Kinging" his way through Under A Glass Moon? 

[Lonk]

I'll bet this opinion is going to float like a brick...

Personally, I think AVFTTOTW is a fitting album to end Dream Theater with. At their age and level of success, I'd totally respect full on, peaceful, retirement. It's very difficult these days to make a living just being a recording artist, and the road can't be a lot of fun.

As much as I would love for them to continue making music forever, I agree with this.