Dropping the tuning of songs to help Labrie out?

[Samsara]

Like everyone here, I've experienced the highest of highs with James Labrie's vocals, and the lowest of lows. What I've come to expect is that given the nature of Dream Theater's songs, particularly those from the 1990s, JLB is going to have good days and bad days. His voice isn't like it once was, age has played a role, etc. It's obvious he takes care of himself and tries to get his voice in the best shape possible. A ton of effort is given, and I appreciate it.

But what I don't understand is why those harder tunes are in their original tunings. Why not drop them a half-step and make it easier on JLB to sing them?

I remember seeing an interview one time where JP scoffed at down-tuning, and the purist in me was like "hell yea." But the realist in me was like - yeah, I'd actually like to see if it sounds better, because JLB is killing himself out there and he could use a little help.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BASH LABRIE. JLB goes out there and gives his all every night. I respect and admire that. And thank him.   I'm just wondering why when the bands from DT's era (late-80s and onward) are helping their vocalists out by dropping the tunings of their songs to make the notes easier to sing, DT just isn't doing.

Now, on the other hand, maybe they tried it, and the songs sounded bad (Tesla comes to mind - holy crap I never need to hear Edison's Medicine like that ever again). I don't know. But after hearing Labrie sing "Pull Me Under" in Japan this month, and remembering what he sounded like at the show in Oakland on the past tour (and the I&W 25th in Oakland back in 2017), I just don't understand why Dream Theater insist on doing these songs in the original tuning. Make it easier on the singer. and drop them a little. A half-step would probably go a long way.

[Dream Team]

1. Stubbornness
2. Delusion (“he’s good enough, the fans love him”)
3. None of it matters, he doesn’t sound too great even on the easier songs*

*may be considered controversial

[TAC]

Sam, have you listened to Anthrax's XL live album (in front of nobody)?

I ask because I wonder if it's downtuned. I feel like it is, because it's just not a lively and bright as I remember these songs. I listened to it today, and I just cannot get into it.


Tesla live is unlistenable, and visually, they're even worse.



I don't know if it's the high notes so much, but James seems to be simply not as powerful across the board. That said, he is EXCELLENT on Live In Berlin.

[Dublagent66]

Rush did it for songs like 2112, but I could tell right away it was tuned down to another key and it just didn't sound right to me.  Maybe that's why DT doesn't do it.

[Adami]

I thought they did do this for the I&W stuff recently. Maybe I’m wrong?

[Metro]

I thought they did do this for the I&W stuff recently. Maybe I’m wrong?

Correct. All of I&W except Wait for Sleep was played down a half step on the I&W and Beyond Tour, as well as A Change of Seasons.

[jimgolf]

I think theyve just been more careful with crafting the setlists. There are plenty of songs in the catalogue James can still sing just fine in the original tuning, so they are going with them. As a fan, I would rather hear a song more comfortable to James sung in its original key than hear something like Take The Time downtuned and altered. Rush did that with 2112 and the song just kind of loses its "oomph" - its tough to explain. Some songs just sound better in the key they were written in.

That being said, if they played Metropolis for an encore and downtuned an old fan favorite or two, it wouldn't be much of a big deal. I mean, if they really ever need to give James an extra break they can always bust out Raw Dog.

[TAC]

Raw Dog will be played on the upcoming JP solo tour. Just saying.

[ReaPsTA]

Downtuned music sounds weird. It was written in the original key for a reason.

Thank god Metallica at least records their studio tracks in E.

[jimgolf]

Raw Dog will be played on the upcoming JP solo tour. Just saying.

"featuring a never-before-performed live track from the hit God of War video game soundtrack!"

(In all seriousness, its really not that bad of a song - but it is fun to poke fun at  )

[Cool Chris]

Downtuned music sounds weird. It was written in the original key for a reason.

This is the baseline for my thinking.

But... I don't have a problem with a band playing a song differently if they are unable to suitably perform it live as written. How "different" is where I can't decide where I stand.

[RaiseTheKnife]

With some songs down tuned, does Jordan have to transpose and sorta relearn those songs in different hand positions?  It's once thing to detune a guitar, but would be detune his keyboard as well?

[Metro]

With some songs down tuned, does Jordan have to transpose and sorta relearn those songs in different hand positions?  It's once thing to detune a guitar, but would be detune his keyboard as well?

I remember reading somewhere that with the I&W and Beyond tour, he simply detuned his keyboard. The fingerings remained the same as they would be in the original key, but the keyboard sounds a half step lower.

[nikatapi]

They did it for the I&W tour, and to be honest James sounded bad even then.
I think it might be better to alter some melodies or skip some songs since he's not able to do them anymore, they have a vast catalog of songs so it should be ok.

They also rely a lot on the backing tracks now, if you see for 6:00 or Endless Sacrifice for example, the backing track contains the lead melody, and James sings along in either a different octave or an alternate melody.

[Evai]

James sings higher than the original very often live though, like in Pull Me Under. 'If not today then not tomorrow, then some other DAAAAAAAY', 'I am not AFRAAAAAIID'

[Mladen]

James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?

The only possible scenario is James requesting from the band to tune down if he feels like he can do better in a lower tuning. I do not see that being a possibility, though, James looks pretty confident in his voice in recent years.

Interestingly enough, when they performed Images and words in Eb a few years back, James decided to alter certain lines towards the end of the tour. Some songs are difficult regardless of the tuning, I guess.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

the keys sound different. Of course if the guy really cant get it done in the original key you are right and they probably should. But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.

[Lonk]

With some songs down tuned, does Jordan have to transpose and sorta relearn those songs in different hand positions?  It's once thing to detune a guitar, but would be detune his keyboard as well?

I remember reading somewhere that with the I&W and Beyond tour, he simply detuned his keyboard. The fingerings remained the same as they would be in the original key, but the keyboard sounds a half step lower.

Yeah, If I remember correctly, most modern keyboard have the "transpose" feature, which means you can make that Middle C sound like a D if you want to. So he can still play the same notes on the keyboard while the sound comes out in a different key.

In fact, I think Korg Kronos (I think he still uses that) has a feature where you can create a "setlist", so as you move through the songs the keyboard has the preset settings ready.

[Deadeye21]

I thought they did do this for the I&W stuff recently. Maybe I’m wrong?

Correct. All of I&W except Wait for Sleep was played down a half step on the I&W and Beyond Tour, as well as A Change of Seasons.

Man, that drive me NUTS when I saw em. Kinda wrecks the reprise in Learning to Live since that’s now a half step lower than the actual piece. The flow between the two songs just didn’t work for me as well on that tour as it has pretty much every other time. 

[Samsara]

Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.

Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.

A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.

[gzarruk]

They did it for the I&W tour, and to be honest James sounded bad even then.
I think it might be better to alter some melodies or skip some songs since he's not able to do them anymore, they have a vast catalog of songs so it should be ok.

That's the best solution there, just retire some songs and play something else. They have such a big catalog that nobody would care/notice if they didn't play PMU or some of the older stuff ever again, specially considering there's a lot of songs from the 2000's they haven't played in a long long time. There's even stuff from the MM era they've never played live yet.

And yes, they downtuned IAW and ACOS in 2017 and that didn't help that much either, some vocal sections on the IAW live in Japan release from the LNFA are painful to listen to

[Skeever]

They're already doing this, as far as I'm aware. I think James' vocals still sound great, but the challenges presented by those early recordings go a lot further than just being resolved by transposing the whole tune down by one step.

[EPIC Outro]

Would it be acceptable to keep the songs in their current key, and just dramatically altar the vocal melody? Also, maybe some songs would benefit from a new arrangement. There is a Cameo of James Labrie singing Innocence Faded on YouTube... He takes more time to breath than the standard arrangement would allow, but as a result he sounds really good, IMO, even on the high parts.

https://youtu.be/Y0_cRS5g8Qc

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.

Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.

A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.

If they're going to retire the most famous and best album then they might as well retire from live performances.

[jammindude]

Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.

Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.

A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.

If they're going to retire the most famous and best album then they might as well retire from live performances.

That’s a ridiculous statement. As long as they play music they love to play, and people are still willing to sell out large theaters and small arenas to see them play what they choose to play…why would they stop?

I mean, honestly. If they did a tour of nothing but Mangini-era material and nothing from the “classic era” at all, but people continued to show up… It might be sad for some of us older fans, but if they still see a return on their business then they can do whatever they want.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.

Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.

A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.

If they're going to retire the most famous and best album then they might as well retire from live performances.

That’s a ridiculous statement. As long as they play music they love to play, and people are still willing to sell out large theaters and small arenas to see them play what they choose to play…why would they stop?

I mean, honestly. If they did a tour of nothing but Mangini-era material and nothing from the “classic era” at all, but people continued to show up… It might be sad for some of us older fans, but if they still see a return on their business then they can do whatever they want.

People wouldn't continue to show up for a show like that like it or not. And I am in the small camp who thinks that there is only one superior MP-era album (I&W). If they can't pull of Pull Me Under they are done. The good news is that JLB's execution is similar to how it was 20 years ago.

[Elite]

Downtuned music sounds weird. It was written in the original key for a reason.

Thank god Metallica at least records their studio tracks in E.

To your first point; the ‘reason’ for a lot of hard rock / metal bands being the limitations of the electric guitar. There’s thus a reason so much songs are in E (minor) for example - like half the Metallica and Iron Maiden catalogue (exaggerated only slightly). Lots of guitar based music is in keys that are ‘easy’ on the guitar, like E(m), A(m), D or G. It’s no coincidence.

To your second point.. most of Metallica’s stuff sounds similar precisely because they insist on hitting that low E string all the time. Or do you mean tuning their guitars in E? In that case, try playing along to Ride the Lightning once and notice how basically the entire album is slightly out of tune (you can hear this clearly on For Whom the Bell Tolls). But this is off-topic. Why did you being it up in the first place?

[Elite]

But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.

This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.

[Skeever]

Why don't the band do X to help LaBrie out?

I think the answer is probably simple: James would have to want them to. Now, I don't know James personally, but he seems to be pretty competitive, and confident in his abilities. And no, he doesn't sound like IAW James (he would probably dispute that), but he also doesn't sound like "get this guy off the stage" tier, either.

As far as drastically rearranging songs goes, I don't see the current lineup of the band doing that. That would have been something MP might consider, though, as he liked to do special versions of things, medleys, and so on.

[RaiseTheKnife]

When I saw I&W and Beyond live I didn't notice the half-step difference. I imagine most people in the audience didn't either.

[ReaPsTA]

Why don't the band do X to help LaBrie out?

I think the answer is probably simple: James would have to want them to. Now, I don't know James personally, but he seems to be pretty competitive, and confident in his abilities. And no, he doesn't sound like IAW James (he would probably dispute that), but he also doesn't sound like "get this guy off the stage" tier, either.

As far as drastically rearranging songs goes, I don't see the current lineup of the band doing that. That would have been something MP might consider, though, as he liked to do special versions of things, medleys, and so on.

At a show I was at, he said something like "Yes I'll be singing Images and Words when I'm 70"

[Glasser]

Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? 

Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.

[EPIC Outro]

They will never replace James. Nor should they.

[Glasser]

They will never replace James. Nor should they.

100% hard disagree. No disrespect to you.

[TAC]

They will never replace James. Nor should they.

100% hard disagree. No disrespect to you.

I don't think "they will never replace James" is a hot take. Why would you hard disagree with that?