A man tries to cut you in a drive thru line. What do you do?

[El Barto]

If this is simply about the percentage of escalating - in any manner, including a bird flip - a driving interaction, then I'm standing down, I have no disagreement. You all are (and I'm being sincere) right as rain.   It IS far more likely in the US, unequivocally.  We're an angry, angry, insecure population as a general rule and I've been saying that for going on a decade now.

Fair enough. I only responded because it was the gås's post that you cited, and that was (I gather) the point he was making.

[Stadler]

Well, in my experience, just because "90% of people are saying it" doesn't make it accurate or true.  I've just seen too many - more than not, actually - instances where "common wisdom" doesn't pan out.   Here is one of them.  The COVID thread is littered with people whining about how the unwashed masses don't listen to the experts and follow the data, and now we're talking about an issue where the data doesn't support the common wisdom and apparently all that goes out the window.

Right. I don't mean you're wrong 90% of the time or anything. Just was saying we aren't trying to make you bad guy.

Thank you; and by the way the "whining about the unwashed masses" was meant to be funny, not dismissive.

[hefdaddy42]

We all know this is based on that misconception that every American is Dirty Harry packing heat.  400 million guns! They're lying in the street like a video game power up!

No, it's based on the knowledge given from just following the news that the only assholes actually packing heat are going to be people in this kind of situation.

There was a time when I would have done something/confronted the guy, but not now.  See above for the reason.

Having said that, when I'm in a drive-thru line, I never give enough clearance for someone to cut in front of me.

Well, that right there blows your argument out of the water.

Goddammit straight to hell, Stadler.  I have no idea what your deal is on this topic.  It's not like you are the only person living in America that experiences the outside world.

Most of us aren't willing to do anything because of the risk of an asshole with a gun.  You think we feel that way for no fucking rational reason whatsoever? 

[Stadler]

We all know this is based on that misconception that every American is Dirty Harry packing heat.  400 million guns! They're lying in the street like a video game power up!

No, it's based on the knowledge given from just following the news that the only assholes actually packing heat are going to be people in this kind of situation.

There was a time when I would have done something/confronted the guy, but not now.  See above for the reason.

Having said that, when I'm in a drive-thru line, I never give enough clearance for someone to cut in front of me.

Well, that right there blows your argument out of the water.

Goddammit straight to hell, Stadler.  I have no idea what your deal is on this topic.  It's not like you are the only person living in America that experiences the outside world.

Most of us aren't willing to do anything because of the risk of an asshole with a gun.  You think we feel that way for no fucking rational reason whatsoever?

Yeah, actually, kinda.  I don't mean that confrontationally, but I stand by what I said:  "PERCEPTION of risk" - which I don't argue with at all - isn't the same as "ACTUAL risk".  That's not me, that's just numbers and data.  If you choose not to act because you fear being shot, you be you.  I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong.  I've never once ever done cocaine because I fear my heart blowing up and/or being Ozzy snorting ants.  I don't know if my fear is RATIONAL or not - does that happen with one snort? - but I do act on it.  Here's the difference though: I'm not translating that fear into something more tangible.  I'm not telling others "Don't do coke!  Your heart will explode!" because that's patently not true in all cases; I know a ton of people that have done coke, and neither of those things happened.   There are people here that believe their fear of being shot is RATIONAL and reflective of reality.  That's just not true.  I'm sorry, but it's not.

If you said "yeah, I guess the risk is really low, but not one I'm willing to take, so I'm going to let him go because I REALLY don't want to be shot" you would never have heard a word from me.  But that's not what was said.  If someone in the COVID thread said "I fear the vaccine because it causes autism", you'd be all over it like Yngwie on a guitar solo and you know it.

[Harmony]

https://www.reddit.com/r/skateboarding/comments/wqq23b/guy_pulls_out_a_gun_on_skater/

Assholes like this one are why people assume all drivers are packing.

[SwedishGoose]

If you said "yeah, I guess the risk is really low, but not one I'm willing to take, so I'm going to let him go because I REALLY don't want to be shot" you would never have heard a word from me.  But that's not what was said.  If someone in the COVID thread said "I fear the vaccine because it causes autism", you'd be all over it like Yngwie on a guitar solo and you know it.

The risk is sureley low but it"s not negligible in the USA. It is though in most other western countries.

Better safe than sorry.

There is quite a difference with covid as sure the vaccines have risks but not taking them is an even bigger risk.

With assholes like the one above there are risks when you anger them but no risks when you don't.

[cramx3]

I'm kind of leaning towards Stadler's point here.  Yes, the US has terrible gun violence, but the reality is you aren't even at all likely to experience it. (and this could be regional, here in NJ there are much stricter gun laws so other than the bad areas of the two major cities (newark and trenton) there isn't a ton of gun violence locally)  Having said that, you can't ignore the stories especially the gun violence from cold fries type of stories that kind of relates to this thread.  Chances may be close to 0, but it's not 0 and it's understandable why some might have a higher perceived risk than actual risk because the stories may hit close to home.

[Stadler]

I'm kind of leaning towards Stadler's point here.  Yes, the US has terrible gun violence, but the reality is you aren't even at all likely to experience it. (and this could be regional, here in NJ there are much stricter gun laws so other than the bad areas of the two major cities (newark and trenton) there isn't a ton of gun violence locally)  Having said that, you can't ignore the stories especially the gun violence from cold fries type of stories that kind of relates to this thread.  Chances may be close to 0, but it's not 0 and it's understandable why some might have a higher perceived risk than actual risk because the stories may hit close to home.

And I don't disagree with any of that. Just own the perception, is all, and don't assume it's either correct or that everyone shares it.  In that regard it is EXACTLY like COVID.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't mean that confrontationally

Yes you do.

but I stand by what I said:  "PERCEPTION of risk" - which I don't argue with at all - isn't the same as "ACTUAL risk".  That's not me, that's just numbers and data.

I know all about risk, and numbers, and data.  I work for an insurance company, and I am, by nature, risk averse, especially regarding physical risk.

If you choose not to act because you fear being shot, you be you.  I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong.

And yet, here you are.

I've never once ever done cocaine because I fear my heart blowing up and/or being Ozzy snorting ants.  I don't know if my fear is RATIONAL or not - does that happen with one snort? - but I do act on it.  Here's the difference though: I'm not translating that fear into something more tangible.  I'm not telling others "Don't do coke!  Your heart will explode!" because that's patently not true in all cases; I know a ton of people that have done coke, and neither of those things happened.

You know a ton of people that have done coke? 

There are people here that believe their fear of being shot is RATIONAL and reflective of reality.  That's just not true.  I'm sorry, but it's not.

The fuck it isn't.  Do things like this (a jerk losing his shit in some unnecessary incident) happen all day every day in every U.S. city?  No, of course not.  But it happens frequently throughout the U.S., and you never know when or where it will happen again. 

If you said "yeah, I guess the risk is really low, but not one I'm willing to take, so I'm going to let him go because I REALLY don't want to be shot" you would never have heard a word from me.  But that's not what was said.  If someone in the COVID thread said "I fear the vaccine because it causes autism", you'd be all over it like Yngwie on a guitar solo and you know it.

Didn't realize I had to clear all of my risk assessments with you before getting a fucking sermon about numbers and statistics.  I'll remember that next time.

You can talk numbers and stats all you want, but not all stats are equivalent.  There is a pretty low chance that I will win the lottery, but if I try my luck and lose, I'm just out a couple bucks, no blood no foul.  But SOMEONE is going to beat the odds, and they are going to win big.

There is a pretty low chance that I will ever be in an altercation that results in gun violence, but if I try my luck and lose, I am dead.  None of the people who have been injured or killed in any such confrontations were likely to have been in one either, but they were, and I don't want to be the fucking next one.

[XeRocks81]

https://giphy.com/gifs/foxinternational-reaction-simpsons-celebrate-26tPplGWjN0xLybiU

[Adami]

Fixed for ya.

[Skeever]

As soon as I see him trying to cut in I would pull my car up as close to the car in front of me as possible so he can’t get in front of me.

This is me, without question, and I'm seriously perplexed about the couple of responses like this:

In sweden I would try to stop him from cutting in line by staying close to the car in front. Failing that I would honk the horn and gesture...

In U.S.A..... nothing

That said...I can't remember the last time I used a fast food drive-thru.  We special order stuff, and the drive-thru is the best way to ensure they fuck it up.  I will either order on the app or walk inside (and, where there is a self-ordering kiosk, I'll use that).  In-n-Out is the exception here because they actually hire people with brain cells, although I'll usually go inside because the drive-through line is always super long.

I mean, it's not accurate, but it doesn't perplex me.  We all know this is based on that misconception that every American is Dirty Harry packing heat.  400 million guns! They're lying in the street like a video game power up!

No one believes that every american is packing heat and is ready to shoot you on site but the risk for that happening in the US of A is soooo much higher than in any other western country.

Never heard of anything like that anywhere else than in USA where I have heard of it time after time.

You do you, I'd never tell you what to believe, but as someone who has lived here - in multiple places and not always in the best of neighborhoods, I'm telling you, you do not have an accurate view of American life.  Just gonna say it.

I'd say he has a pretty accurate view of American Life, and so would a lot of others I know.
There are 1100 shootings and counting in my city, as of today. What's that, like 5 per day?
Sorry but maybe it's not so easy for everyone else to shut that kind of thing out.

Also, even if your chances of actually getting shot are very slim, there needs to be some appreciation for the compounding effect hearing about shootings every single day for years has had on our collective psyche. It's just like people who try and downplay severe weather events. Sure, changes are your house isn't going to be destroyed by a tornado or flooded, but it IS happening, all over the place, multiple times per year, and more than it did in the past on record. Where is the consideration for the fatigue generated by the daily traumas and the effect it has on people's day-to-day outlook?

Speaking personally, I'd be lying if I said that I was so scared of going out that I didn't do anything. But it IS a factor, especially when it comes to going into big crowds. I do find myself asking "Do I really want to take my fam to X?" And that's the same mindset I have when people cut me off the road. No way I'm going to try and get my say in - I treat every aggressive driver on the road as if they're a terrorist with a suicide bomb strapped to their vest. 

[Chino]

I've avoided large gatherings in my city out of that fear. All it takes one drunk with too much pride for all hell to break lose. This happened just days ago at a place that's within screaming distance of my house. My local aquarium store is directly under this establishment, and I go to the gas station across the street several times a week.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/owner-of-social-club-in-waterbury-shot-killed/2852220/

There were two other homicides within minutes of me last week that also stemmed from people having hot tempers. Even if I'm not directly involved, I consider me close enough to the crossfire. Too many people out there without a care in the world for me to care enough to start a confrontation or potentially escalate something. 

[Ben_Jamin]

But why let that fear take control of your daily life?

People only know of these shootings because of the news stories. The news is the master of generating fear. There was one shooting that happened at one town at a local fast food place called Blake's. It took a lot of people to share a post about it on Social Media for the news to pickup the story and share it. The suspect did get caught and is in custody.

Am I now scared and fearful of my life because I work in fast food? No. We all continue to go into work and deal with these types of customers on the daily. We also got robbed one-day, and I didn't even know as I was cleaning.

Some of you people would be amazed at the things people have said to my co-workers all because of some mistake with their food. That to me shows a lot more about how people are frustrated and angry, and that is what I am fearful of. How those people will react. I am not afraid of a gun going off.

What my main interest is why are people so frustrated and angry? Can anyone answer this question?

Also, in Gallup there was a truck that drove through a parade route. As I figured, the man was drunk (over 3x the legal limit). This was not an issue of guns but of an alcoholic who chose to run away from the cops while drinking and ended up plowing through a parade route. Are people now going to be afraid of parades and another drunk possibly driving through another event?

Will alcohol be addressed the same as guns as "all it takes is one drunk with too much pride for all hell to break loose"? Will people handle mandatory breathalyzers every time they go out for a drink and have to surrender their keys, while also having a mandatory interlock in their vehicles?

Because to me, being drunk is just as much an issue as the issue with guns. This being that people become mentally unstable while drunk, all inhibitions are gone and people do things they otherwise wouldn't do when not drunk. The same could be said about other substances as well. Addiction is strong and powerful that it can cause people to do things they otherwise wouldnt do. Such as shooting up a place, shooting up someone because they cut them off, or because the McDonalds burger had onions, pickles, and tomatoes on it and now the buns are soaked with the flavors of all three.

[Zantera]

Here in Sweden (or any other European country) I would just block the move, possibly call something out from the window because I wouldn't let someone just pull that stunt on me. If I was in USA thought I would probably do nothing because everyone owns a machine gun and I don't know if I'd be willing to risk getting into a Lethal Weapon shootout with some wacko at the Mcdonalds drive through. I guess if I had weapons myself I could try my luck and claim self defense if a shootout happened... 

[King Postwhore]

It's not fear.  It's changing your Behaviors around others who are a little aggressive. Nothing wrong with that. It's being a grown up.

[Skeever]

Here in Sweden (or any other European country) I would just block the move, possibly call something out from the window because I wouldn't let someone just pull that stunt on me. If I was in USA thought I would probably do nothing because everyone owns a machine gun and I don't know if I'd be willing to risk getting into a Lethal Weapon shootout with some wacko at the Mcdonalds drive through. I guess if I had weapons myself I could try my luck and claim self defense if a shootout happened... 

Don't exaggerate dude, not ALL of us own machine guns.
Just, like, 1 in 3 

[Adami]

There's a pretty easy answer.

Since it's a fact...not opinion...but fact, that America is currently very similar to the latest Mad Max movie, it can be well assumed that all Americans are armed and dangerous regularly, at least Trump supporters, who are scientifically proven to be insane, dangerous, deplorable, and ready to kill at a moment's notice. So if a person cuts me off, they're likely not just armed, but their vehicle is likely armed as well with spikes on their rims, and flamethrowers, since as we've proven, only a Trump supporter or Republican would cut me off in the first place. So I have to accurately assess risk. If I try to block this person, do I have the tools necessary to protect my life and my car in my endless search for gasoline and food in the wastelands that is America? So the answer is to make sure to protect yourself and have the gear necessary for a fight to the death at all times.

So I would block them and then prepare to fight them to the death afterwards. If I am well prepared, I will be victorious and will be legally allowed access to his food, women, and children.

Again, pretty simple stuff. Right Stads?

[Herrick]

I'm trying to picture how anyone could cut me off in a drive thru without crashing into me, and how "blocking" them wouldn't result in an accident. Not worth it to me and nothing to get too pissed off about. I'm used to dealing with assholes every day I drive to work.

[Stadler]

I don't mean that confrontationally

Yes you do.

Like almost all things here, it's a discussion of ideas, nothing more. 

If you choose not to act because you fear being shot, you be you.  I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong.

And yet, here you are.[/quote]

But I'm not; I think I've been clear.  If you decide not to engage - which is what I did, by the way - you be you.  I'm SOLELY focusing on this incorrect and inaccurate assessment of the odds of being shot by engaging.  Look, this isn't a standalone thread; some of the people making the assertions here CONTINUALLY make those assertions, despite there being little data to back their positions up. 

I've never once ever done cocaine because I fear my heart blowing up and/or being Ozzy snorting ants.  I don't know if my fear is RATIONAL or not - does that happen with one snort? - but I do act on it.  Here's the difference though: I'm not translating that fear into something more tangible.  I'm not telling others "Don't do coke!  Your heart will explode!" because that's patently not true in all cases; I know a ton of people that have done coke, and neither of those things happened.

You know a ton of people that have done coke?  [/quote]

What's a ton? Unfortunately, I do know a fair amount of people - either directly, from the college days, or anecdotally - that have. It was the 80's after all.

There are people here that believe their fear of being shot is RATIONAL and reflective of reality.  That's just not true.  I'm sorry, but it's not.

The fuck it isn't.  Do things like this (a jerk losing his shit in some unnecessary incident) happen all day every day in every U.S. city?  No, of course not.  But it happens frequently throughout the U.S., and you never know when or where it will happen again.  [/quote]

And that's the rub, isn't it?  Remembering that we're talking about SHOOTING - which is what I objected to - not just losing one's shit (which I've already agreed to), and it doesn't happen that frequently.  Whether you THINK it does or not is immaterial.  It's like the woman in the prologue of the "How Risky Is It?" book that was fighting tooth and nail to get her town to address trace amounts of contaminant in the air in the school library - below reportable levels - and yet at every break in the hearing would chainsmoke cigarettes, something the author put at a risk of about 10,000 times more dangerous than what she was fighting for. 

If you said "yeah, I guess the risk is really low, but not one I'm willing to take, so I'm going to let him go because I REALLY don't want to be shot" you would never have heard a word from me.  But that's not what was said.  If someone in the COVID thread said "I fear the vaccine because it causes autism", you'd be all over it like Yngwie on a guitar solo and you know it.

Didn't realize I had to clear all of my risk assessments with you before getting a fucking sermon about numbers and statistics.  I'll remember that next time.[/quote]

Not necessary; I'm not telling you what to do, I'm trying to characterize the issue.  C'mon.

You can talk numbers and stats all you want, but not all stats are equivalent.  There is a pretty low chance that I will win the lottery, but if I try my luck and lose, I'm just out a couple bucks, no blood no foul.  But SOMEONE is going to beat the odds, and they are going to win big.

There is a pretty low chance that I will ever be in an altercation that results in gun violence, but if I try my luck and lose, I am dead.  None of the people who have been injured or killed in any such confrontations were likely to have been in one either, but they were, and I don't want to be the fucking next one.

So are you going out in a tyvek suit?  Are you wearing a respirator to make sure you don't  breath any contaminants?  Are you not driving at night, because drunk driving accidents are four times more likely to happen during the night than the day time?  I cited something like 218 murders in five years, yet DWI's killed about 800 - FOUR TIMES that amount over Thanksgiving weekends from 2013 to 2017.  Are you not driving at all during that weekend?  That's a far better bang for your money in terms of "being the next one".  I've already said, repeatedly, if you don't want to be the next one, you be you.  But own it; don't make it out like it's someone else's problem when it isn't.

[Stadler]

As soon as I see him trying to cut in I would pull my car up as close to the car in front of me as possible so he can’t get in front of me.

This is me, without question, and I'm seriously perplexed about the couple of responses like this:

In sweden I would try to stop him from cutting in line by staying close to the car in front. Failing that I would honk the horn and gesture...

In U.S.A..... nothing

That said...I can't remember the last time I used a fast food drive-thru.  We special order stuff, and the drive-thru is the best way to ensure they fuck it up.  I will either order on the app or walk inside (and, where there is a self-ordering kiosk, I'll use that).  In-n-Out is the exception here because they actually hire people with brain cells, although I'll usually go inside because the drive-through line is always super long.

I mean, it's not accurate, but it doesn't perplex me.  We all know this is based on that misconception that every American is Dirty Harry packing heat.  400 million guns! They're lying in the street like a video game power up!

No one believes that every american is packing heat and is ready to shoot you on site but the risk for that happening in the US of A is soooo much higher than in any other western country.

Never heard of anything like that anywhere else than in USA where I have heard of it time after time.

You do you, I'd never tell you what to believe, but as someone who has lived here - in multiple places and not always in the best of neighborhoods, I'm telling you, you do not have an accurate view of American life.  Just gonna say it.

I'd say he has a pretty accurate view of American Life, and so would a lot of others I know.
There are 1100 shootings and counting in my city, as of today. What's that, like 5 per day?
Sorry but maybe it's not so easy for everyone else to shut that kind of thing out.

Also, even if your chances of actually getting shot are very slim, there needs to be some appreciation for the compounding effect hearing about shootings every single day for years has had on our collective psyche. It's just like people who try and downplay severe weather events. Sure, changes are your house isn't going to be destroyed by a tornado or flooded, but it IS happening, all over the place, multiple times per year, and more than it did in the past on record. Where is the consideration for the fatigue generated by the daily traumas and the effect it has on people's day-to-day outlook?

Speaking personally, I'd be lying if I said that I was so scared of going out that I didn't do anything. But it IS a factor, especially when it comes to going into big crowds. I do find myself asking "Do I really want to take my fam to X?" And that's the same mindset I have when people cut me off the road. No way I'm going to try and get my say in - I treat every aggressive driver on the road as if they're a terrorist with a suicide bomb strapped to their vest.

Don't expand the issue though. If you want to factor that into what you do - and I've never said I DON'T factor that into what I do; I actually left a music festival in my old town a couple weeks ago, because of a bad vibe and my friend and I just didn't want to be a part of that - then by all means.  That's NOT what I'm objecting to.  I'm objecting to this acceptance of perception as reality, that's all.  I am patently NOT telling anyone what to do or to feel, but I AM - and will continue to do so as long as our hosts allow me to - pointing out where the REALITY and the PERCEPTION meet.  We've got people here that haven't even ever set foot in the United States trying to tell us - me, someone who has been here for 54 years and counting - what it's like, based on faulty data and media reports.  They're wrong, and the data supports that, even if they THINK they are right and even if others agree with them.  If you disagree with me, feel free to skip my posts. 

[Stadler]

Here in Sweden (or any other European country) I would just block the move, possibly call something out from the window because I wouldn't let someone just pull that stunt on me. If I was in USA thought I would probably do nothing because everyone owns a machine gun and I don't know if I'd be willing to risk getting into a Lethal Weapon shootout with some wacko at the Mcdonalds drive through. I guess if I had weapons myself I could try my luck and claim self defense if a shootout happened... 

See what I mean?  C'mon.   That's just not accurate, nor useful for the conversation. Even if you took the most expansive definition of "machine gun" possible, you are talking a negligible percentage. According to the ATF, less than 0.2% of firearms in the U.S. are "machine guns".

[Stadler]

There's a pretty easy answer.

Since it's a fact...not opinion...but fact, that America is currently very similar to the latest Mad Max movie, it can be well assumed that all Americans are armed and dangerous regularly, at least Trump supporters, who are scientifically proven to be insane, dangerous, deplorable, and ready to kill at a moment's notice. So if a person cuts me off, they're likely not just armed, but their vehicle is likely armed as well with spikes on their rims, and flamethrowers, since as we've proven, only a Trump supporter or Republican would cut me off in the first place. So I have to accurately assess risk. If I try to block this person, do I have the tools necessary to protect my life and my car in my endless search for gasoline and food in the wastelands that is America? So the answer is to make sure to protect yourself and have the gear necessary for a fight to the death at all times.

So I would block them and then prepare to fight them to the death afterwards. If I am well prepared, I will be victorious and will be legally allowed access to his food, women, and children.

Again, pretty simple stuff. Right Stads?

You're giving me agita.

[hefdaddy42]

I am patently NOT telling anyone what to do or to feel

Come on.

[Stadler]

I am patently NOT telling anyone what to do or to feel

Come on.

I'm not.   If they want to be wrong, I'm not here to stop them.   I can and will*, though, tell them they are wrong.  I do think it's fascinating how the levels of truth and the demands of accuracy fluctuate depending on the subject matter.  This level of truth elasticity didn't seem to be present in the COVID thread, for example.


* Again, at the leisure of our hosts.

[Skeever]

Stats aren't everything, though. Stats are important, they help us "examine the evidence" and ground ourselves. But at the same time, SwedishGoose and Zantera get to live in countries where they can go to the movies or a mall without the thought entering their minds that there might be some kind of shooting or attack. These days are behind me, as an American. I can not go to a movie theater, or the mall, or a parade, without thinking about the possibility of a shooting or some other kind of mass casualty event. I can't send my kid to school without the thought of a shooting in the back of my mind. So in that sense, I don't think they're wrong at all, if those two posters were Americans, there's a decent chance they'd be thinking about things just like how I am.

"The Stats" are important, but not in a way that convinces me that "everything is fine", but more in a way that reminds me that, even though everything's not fine, chances are slim that I'll be impacted. Whether the "perception" is "reality" is besides the point - the perception itself is a real thing, and one of the unique characteristics of the American experience at this point.

[hefdaddy42]

I am patently NOT telling anyone what to do or to feel

Come on.

I'm not.   If they want to be wrong, I'm not here to stop them.   I can and will*, though, tell them they are wrong.  I do think it's fascinating how the levels of truth and the demands of accuracy fluctuate depending on the subject matter.  This level of truth elasticity didn't seem to be present in the COVID thread, for example.


* Again, at the leisure of our hosts.

I'm not fucking wrong because I weigh some risks differently than you do.  It's a personal decision.  It can be based on facts or not on facts, and some facts count more for some people than others. 

Besides, this is not a policy thread, or a gun thread, or even a P/R thread.  It's a "what would you do" thread, and just because you somehow have a hard-on for guns despite not owning any, does not mean that people are wrong for making the situational decision that they are making.  People (the Americans, anyway) are basically saying nothing more innocuous than "better safe than sorry" and you are shitting on that.

[Implode]

Someone's worries are completely subjective to each person, their experiences, and the environment in which they live. To assert over and over again that there is some objective right and wrong way to feel about it is incredibly narrow-minded.

[Ben_Jamin]

Someone's worries are completely subjective to each person, their experiences, and the environment in which they live. To assert over and over again that there is some objective right and wrong way to feel about it is incredibly narrow-minded.

 

Worry and fear are emotions. Emotions are something that all humans experience. How each person deals and handles them is entirely up to them. Some people worry excessively and others do not. Whatever causes people to experience these emotions of fear and worry are entirely dependent on their environment, origin, and based on many other reasons including cultural upbringing.

In this situation where someone tries to cut me off in a drive-thru lane doesn't matter to me, so I am not worried if someone does. I'll still get to place my order, I can just hope that person knows what they want and doesn't take forever. So I'll let them in.

I think this could also deal with Patience and Tolerance of others. I do have a lot of tolerance for peoples bullshit that at times it just becomes laughable. If anything, my response would be just to leave before it starts to escalate.

[Stadler]

Stats aren't everything, though. Stats are important, they help us "examine the evidence" and ground ourselves. But at the same time, SwedishGoose and Zantera get to live in countries where they can go to the movies or a mall without the thought entering their minds that there might be some kind of shooting or attack. These days are behind me, as an American. I can not go to a movie theater, or the mall, or a parade, without thinking about the possibility of a shooting or some other kind of mass casualty event. I can't send my kid to school without the thought of a shooting in the back of my mind. So in that sense, I don't think they're wrong at all, if those two posters were Americans, there's a decent chance they'd be thinking about things just like how I am.

"The Stats" are important, but not in a way that convinces me that "everything is fine", but more in a way that reminds me that, even though everything's not fine, chances are slim that I'll be impacted. Whether the "perception" is "reality" is besides the point - the perception itself is a real thing, and one of the unique characteristics of the American experience at this point.

But it's important to do as you've done, and separate the two.  Look, you're not talking to a stone; I was at dinner last Tuesday in New York, sitting at a table on the street and a fight broke out at the Irish bar next door (no, not making that up).   We all looked at each other, and watched the events very carefully; at one point the aggressor walked down the center of the street away from the bar (but past us) and every one of us watched carefully.  I for one was prepared - at least in theory - if the event escalated to either guns or something else (I was also worried about a car).  So I get that.   

That's not statistics, and that's not what we're talking about here.   I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE'S INDIVIDUAL RISK TOLERANCES (to Hef's point above).   Anyone that knows me here should know that I'm exactly the opposite; stay the hell out of my risk/reward decisions.   I get that.  I'm talking about the next step, of trying to rationalize it through statistics, through facts. I hate to call him out, but this isn't the first time that I've been in this discussion with Swedish Goose, and he's not saying "hey, I know the data doesn't support it, but it's my opinion, I'm better to be safe than sorry!" No, he's seemingly convinced he's looking at an America that at least where I live - and remember, Sandy Hook was LITERALLY my back yard - doesn't exist. 

I'll repeat it again, for the brazilianth time: I am not telling people what to think, I'm not telling people what to believe, I'm just saying, if you're going to use DATA to rationalize your individual opinions then the DATA ought to be right, and if it isn't, I feel I'm within my bounds to point it out.

[Stadler]

I am patently NOT telling anyone what to do or to feel

Come on.

I'm not.   If they want to be wrong, I'm not here to stop them.   I can and will*, though, tell them they are wrong.  I do think it's fascinating how the levels of truth and the demands of accuracy fluctuate depending on the subject matter.  This level of truth elasticity didn't seem to be present in the COVID thread, for example.


* Again, at the leisure of our hosts.

I'm not fucking wrong because I weigh some risks differently than you do.  It's a personal decision.  It can be based on facts or not on facts, and some facts count more for some people than others. 

Besides, this is not a policy thread, or a gun thread, or even a P/R thread.  It's a "what would you do" thread, and just because you somehow have a hard-on for guns despite not owning any, does not mean that people are wrong for making the situational decision that they are making.  People (the Americans, anyway) are basically saying nothing more innocuous than "better safe than sorry" and you are shitting on that.

C'mon Hef; at least have the courtesy and decency to get the argument right.  I'm not telling you what decision to make, and I'm not telling you you're wrong for weighing risks differently. I have even explicitly said - using those exact words - that I am NOT shitting on a "better safe than sorry" position.  I've repeatedly said I do that all the time. We all do.  What I'm saying is, IF you base your decision on specific data, then at least make sure that data is right, and here, that DATA IS WRONG. It doesn't say what many of the people here are saying along with their "better safe than sorry".  And I'm entitled to point that out, whether I own guns or not.   There's no hard-on here, at least not for guns, but maybe for holding you (collective) to at least some semblance of truth.   If this was the COVID thread, or a Fox News thread, don't tell me you wouldn't be doing the same thing. 

[hefdaddy42]

I mean....

*points at the thread*

I didn't even reference any actual data, and you jumped my ass.

[SwedishGoose]

Stats aren't everything, though. Stats are important, they help us "examine the evidence" and ground ourselves. But at the same time, SwedishGoose and Zantera get to live in countries where they can go to the movies or a mall without the thought entering their minds that there might be some kind of shooting or attack. These days are behind me, as an American. I can not go to a movie theater, or the mall, or a parade, without thinking about the possibility of a shooting or some other kind of mass casualty event. I can't send my kid to school without the thought of a shooting in the back of my mind. So in that sense, I don't think they're wrong at all, if those two posters were Americans, there's a decent chance they'd be thinking about things just like how I am.

"The Stats" are important, but not in a way that convinces me that "everything is fine", but more in a way that reminds me that, even though everything's not fine, chances are slim that I'll be impacted. Whether the "perception" is "reality" is besides the point - the perception itself is a real thing, and one of the unique characteristics of the American experience at this point.

But it's important to do as you've done, and separate the two.  Look, you're not talking to a stone; I was at dinner last Tuesday in New York, sitting at a table on the street and a fight broke out at the Irish bar next door (no, not making that up).   We all looked at each other, and watched the events very carefully; at one point the aggressor walked down the center of the street away from the bar (but past us) and every one of us watched carefully.  I for one was prepared - at least in theory - if the event escalated to either guns or something else (I was also worried about a car).  So I get that.   

That's not statistics, and that's not what we're talking about here.   I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE'S INDIVIDUAL RISK TOLERANCES (to Hef's point above).   Anyone that knows me here should know that I'm exactly the opposite; stay the hell out of my risk/reward decisions.   I get that.  I'm talking about the next step, of trying to rationalize it through statistics, through facts. I hate to call him out, but this isn't the first time that I've been in this discussion with Swedish Goose, and he's not saying "hey, I know the data doesn't support it, but it's my opinion, I'm better to be safe than sorry!" No, he's seemingly convinced he's looking at an America that at least where I live - and remember, Sandy Hook was LITERALLY my back yard - doesn't exist. 

I'll repeat it again, for the brazilianth time: I am not telling people what to think, I'm not telling people what to believe, I'm just saying, if you're going to use DATA to rationalize your individual opinions then the DATA ought to be right, and if it isn't, I feel I'm within my bounds to point it out.

Sorry Stads but I do not agree with your interpretation of the data. Yes, it's statistics, not facts.
What have I said time and time again. There is a much greater risk of getting shot for just about any reason in the US than in about any other western country.
That is statistics.... verifyable and true on a large scale
That more guns means less people killed by guns that could perhaps be seen in some limited researches... it requires you to interpret the data as you do.

Sure... I have said again and again that the risk is not that high even in the US but it is way higher than in any other western country.

The data does support me saying that getting killed by guns is a much higher risk i  the US..

I'm not saying it is a huge risk.... it's you putting words in my mouth.... just read back in this thread and you should see it.


BTW.... have you ever been to Australia? Because you seem to imply that having never been to the US makes you not allowed to say anything about guns and their use.... and you use Australia a lot.

Sorry for the ramble.... just getting a bit pissed on my 54th birthday

[XJDenton]

Grattis på födelsedagen, min vän!

[SwedishGoose]

Grattis på födelsedagen, min vän!

Tackar!!!!