Haken thread v. "Evening With" tour (some set spoilers)

[Cocopjojo]

I think Roine might enjoy Elephants Never Forget

Brutal.

[Metro]

?

[Zydar]

I'm sorry if it's been posted already, but the Prog Report did an Ultimate Haken album thing with Ross and Charlie a few weeks ago.

https://youtu.be/894NnS31VlM

[v_clortho]

I'm hearing a lot of Native Construct in Elephants Never Forget.
The more I listen to the album, the better it gets.

[Fritzinger]

I remember reading a comment by Roine that sounded like "this band started out interesting, but now they just sound like every other metal band" - I'm not sure if that was during Vector's or Virus's promotional cycle. I was tempted to start an argument with him, but then I thought I don't want to argue with Roine Stolt and risk that things might become weird 

[romdrums]

I remember reading a comment by Roine that sounded like "this band started out interesting, but now they just sound like every other metal band" - I'm not sure if that was during Vector's or Virus's promotional cycle. I was tempted to start an argument with him, but then I thought I don't want to argue with Roine Stolt and risk that things might become weird 

That's funny coming from a guy who keeps putting out the same record over and over again.

[jammindude]

I remember reading a comment by Roine that sounded like "this band started out interesting, but now they just sound like every other metal band" - I'm not sure if that was during Vector's or Virus's promotional cycle. I was tempted to start an argument with him, but then I thought I don't want to argue with Roine Stolt and risk that things might become weird 

That's funny coming from a guy who keeps putting out the same record over and over again.

Not to mention (as the as pointed out by others earlier in this thread) that the first two albums, while absolutely amazing, were the least “original” of their entire catalog. The Mountain, to me, was when they truly found their own individual and original sound.

[The Letter M]

I remember reading a comment by Roine that sounded like "this band started out interesting, but now they just sound like every other metal band" - I'm not sure if that was during Vector's or Virus's promotional cycle. I was tempted to start an argument with him, but then I thought I don't want to argue with Roine Stolt and risk that things might become weird 

That's funny coming from a guy who keeps putting out the same record over and over again.

Not to mention (as the as pointed out by others earlier in this thread) that the first two albums, while absolutely amazing, were the least “original” of their entire catalog. The Mountain, to me, was when they truly found their own individual and original sound.

I think he just likes the whacky, circus-music aspects of Aquarius, and the more melodic nature of the album probably relates most to his own musical tastes and upbringing, and certainly his own style of composition. I've never thought Roine was much of a metal guy, and has probably shied away from playing that kind of music, despite having some heavy moments in many of his bands. I think back to the Transatlantic Bridge Across Forever bonus disc where the guys are jamming in the studio and start playing a multi-genre cover of The Beatles' "And I Love Her", where Roine *kills* it at improvising the Santana section, but kind of flubs his way through the Metal version of the song.

Interestingly, I wonder what Haken would sound like today they had become more proggy and less metal after their first two albums. I imagine they'd sound like a slightly-heavier version of The Flower Kings mixed with Transatlantic and maybe IQ (with the emphasis on keyboards and less so on guitar riffs and complex rhythms).

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

I remember reading a comment by Roine that sounded like "this band started out interesting, but now they just sound like every other metal band" - I'm not sure if that was during Vector's or Virus's promotional cycle. I was tempted to start an argument with him, but then I thought I don't want to argue with Roine Stolt and risk that things might become weird 

That's funny coming from a guy who keeps putting out the same record over and over again.

Eh, with all due respect, while the Flower Kings (his main band) always swim in the symphonic prog pool, there is no way you are listening to them enough to really know them if you think their records are the same thing over and over and over.

That aside, Roine is not really a metal guy, so it's not surprising that he would tilt much more towards their material that was more balanced rather than the metal-heavy newer albums.

[ReaperKK]

6. Aquarious — Love the epic, but boy am I happy they decided to drop the death growls after this record.

This, my god, this. I don’t mind death growls, but Ross’s attempts at them were just laughable and totally out of place.

This baffles me. Because I never even viewed them as “death growls”. It’s a concept album and I always thought that it was the mermaids father speaking and that he was supposed to sound that way because he was like a “merman beast” like thing.  So it’s like I’m watching a Disney movie and this repulsive swamp creature crawls into the scene with seaweed dripping off his body, and when he goes to speak his dialogue, that’s just what he sounds like.

Which in turn, makes it sound totally IN place.

In the album’s defense, the quote attributed to me was from my initial post (where I also ranked the album dead last in their catalog). I’ve since come to love and appreciate the album, even the 15 or so seconds of growling.

I was listening to Affinity the other day and forgot about the vocals at 10:46 of "The Architect" and wondered if there's been one short portion on each album where the band tries some unique vocals? Obviously on Fauna there's the "screaming Mickey through a megaphone" vocals of "Beneath The White Rainbow", and the death growls on Aquarius. I need to go back and listen to their other albums and see if there are others that I'm just not remembering at the moment.

Do these vocal "experiments" bother many folks, even if they're very short and only appear briefly on their respective albums? At this point in my relationship with Fauna, I've come to tolerate BTWR's high-screaming vocal verses, and that part in the middle of "The Architect" never really bothered me, same with the growls on Aquarius.
-Marc.

For me? Yes. Not every vocal experiment bothers me but a lot of them are misses. In the context of Fauna I just find that the experimental vocals pull me out of the music. It's fine if it's something new I wasn't expecting and I warm up to it on subsequent listens but I've given Fauna about 10 spins and really what I really want is an instrumental mix of the album.

[ariich]

Eh, with all due respect, while the Flower Kings (his main band) always swim in the symphonic prog pool, there is no way you are listening to them enough to really know them if you think their records are the same thing over and over and over.

I agree. And indeed I would broaden it out as that point equally applies to Roine's comments about Haken too. When someone is not particularly interested in or familiar with a style, then it's easy for them to write music off as "it all sounds the same".

[ariich]

6. Aquarious — Love the epic, but boy am I happy they decided to drop the death growls after this record.

This, my god, this. I don’t mind death growls, but Ross’s attempts at them were just laughable and totally out of place.

This baffles me. Because I never even viewed them as “death growls”. It’s a concept album and I always thought that it was the mermaids father speaking and that he was supposed to sound that way because he was like a “merman beast” like thing.  So it’s like I’m watching a Disney movie and this repulsive swamp creature crawls into the scene with seaweed dripping off his body, and when he goes to speak his dialogue, that’s just what he sounds like.

Which in turn, makes it sound totally IN place.

In the album’s defense, the quote attributed to me was from my initial post (where I also ranked the album dead last in their catalog). I’ve since come to love and appreciate the album, even the 15 or so seconds of growling.

I was listening to Affinity the other day and forgot about the vocals at 10:46 of "The Architect" and wondered if there's been one short portion on each album where the band tries some unique vocals? Obviously on Fauna there's the "screaming Mickey through a megaphone" vocals of "Beneath The White Rainbow", and the death growls on Aquarius. I need to go back and listen to their other albums and see if there are others that I'm just not remembering at the moment.

Do these vocal "experiments" bother many folks, even if they're very short and only appear briefly on their respective albums? At this point in my relationship with Fauna, I've come to tolerate BTWR's high-screaming vocal verses, and that part in the middle of "The Architect" never really bothered me, same with the growls on Aquarius.
-Marc.

For me? Yes. Not every vocal experiment bothers me but a lot of them are misses. In the context of Fauna I just find that the experimental vocals pull me out of the music. It's fine if it's something new I wasn't expecting and I warm up to it on subsequent listens but I've given Fauna about 10 spins and really what I really want is an instrumental mix of the album.

What vocals do you see as experimental on Fauna? The only one that stands out to me is the megaphone section in White Rainbow. There's also some quirky vocals in Elephants (theatrical stuff and Gentle Giant stuff), but they've done those a few times before like in Visions and Cockroach King.

[me7]

I think the vocals in Taurus and Alphabet also cover new ground for Haken

[ariich]

I think the vocals in Taurus and Alphabet also cover new ground for Haken

Well, I'll give you Alphabet for the Everything Everything style first verse, which I agree is pretty new for them. But I don't hear anything in Taurus that Ross hasn't done a few times before.

[me7]

Taurus has a somewhat Tool-esque vocal delivery in the bridge before the last chorus. I can't think of a song where Ross like this before.

[ariich]

Taurus has a somewhat Tool-esque vocal delivery in the bridge before the last chorus. I can't think of a song where Ross like this before.

He's been doing that operatic-ish baritone thing forever. Like, literally since the first few minutes of the first song on the first demo (Blind).

[King Postwhore]

That section is very "Queenish" to me.

[KevShmev]

Eh, with all due respect, while the Flower Kings (his main band) always swim in the symphonic prog pool, there is no way you are listening to them enough to really know them if you think their records are the same thing over and over and over.

I agree. And indeed I would broaden it out as that point equally applies to Roine's comments about Haken too. When someone is not particularly interested in or familiar with a style, then it's easy for them to write music off as "it all sounds the same".

Agreed.  I knew some years ago who didn't like Rush at all, and one criticism they all always threw out was, "Their music all sounds the same."      Right, because 2112 and Mystic Rhythms are like the same song.

[Zantera]

As someone who has enjoyed the last 3 albums (gave all 3 of them 7/10) I can sorta see where Roine is coming from to some extent. There's an added djent influence/vibe on the last few albums that wasn't there earlier in their career. Whether it's there because the band wanted to take their sound there or because it's a pretty popular trend among newer prog metal bands is up for debate of course, but some of those songs made me go "Yeah they're kinda trying to be Periphery a bit here".

But I think in general a pretty common problem with most prog bands is the challenge of sounding unique and not 'like everyone else' and in that aspect I'm not sure Haken are doing much worse than most other bands. It's a genre I love that hasn't had much innovation in recent years in my opinion so as a result you get a lot of bands that either sound similar or sound like something that has been done before.

[Ben_Jamin]

As someone who has enjoyed the last 3 albums (gave all 3 of them 7/10) I can sorta see where Roine is coming from to some extent. There's an added djent influence/vibe on the last few albums that wasn't there earlier in their career. Whether it's there because the band wanted to take their sound there or because it's a pretty popular trend among newer prog metal bands is up for debate of course, but some of those songs made me go "Yeah they're kinda trying to be Periphery a bit here".

But I think in general a pretty common problem with most prog bands is the challenge of sounding unique and not 'like everyone else' and in that aspect I'm not sure Haken are doing much worse than most other bands. It's a genre I love that hasn't had much innovation in recent years in my opinion so as a result you get a lot of bands that either sound similar or sound like something that has been done before.

They do play 8 string guitars now as well. Hard to differentiate when the 8th string itself is utilized in a more rhythmic way, where it's become the basis of what popularized the 8 string guitar. Especially when it has distortion.

[ariich]

As someone who has enjoyed the last 3 albums (gave all 3 of them 7/10) I can sorta see where Roine is coming from to some extent. There's an added djent influence/vibe on the last few albums that wasn't there earlier in their career. Whether it's there because the band wanted to take their sound there or because it's a pretty popular trend among newer prog metal bands is up for debate of course, but some of those songs made me go "Yeah they're kinda trying to be Periphery a bit here".

Well, I wouldn't call it "added" because it's always been in the mix of their music, right back to the demo. But it did become a more prominent part of their guitar style from The Mountain onwards, and even more so on Vector and Virus because of the style of those albums. Also, the tighter production and 8-string guitars probably add to that sound as well.

And I don't know how much it matters, but I know for a fact that the band doesn't chase what's popular or trendy. Even with djenty stylings being more prominent after their first two albums, that was more a feature of it being interesting to them and (as I said) having the production to do it convincingly.

I was reflecting again on our discussion about Roine's comments and also comments that other people have made about certain styles etc, and I think what's interesting is that I think all the Haken members have really broad tastes and interests in music. Not all the same as each other in terms of the things they really love, but they're all really open to essentially any style. And when one or more of them gets into a style, it naturally follows that the sound starts to seep into their music to varying degrees. When they're writing and arranging the songs, there will be particular segments or transitions that they just don't think work, but to my knowledge that's not been a case of "it's a style I don't like" but rather whether it works as part of that song or album.

[Zantera]

As someone who has enjoyed the last 3 albums (gave all 3 of them 7/10) I can sorta see where Roine is coming from to some extent. There's an added djent influence/vibe on the last few albums that wasn't there earlier in their career. Whether it's there because the band wanted to take their sound there or because it's a pretty popular trend among newer prog metal bands is up for debate of course, but some of those songs made me go "Yeah they're kinda trying to be Periphery a bit here".

Well, I wouldn't call it "added" because it's always been in the mix of their music, right back to the demo. But it did become a more prominent part of their guitar style from The Mountain onwards, and even more so on Vector and Virus because of the style of those albums. Also, the tighter production and 8-string guitars probably add to that sound as well.

And I don't know how much it matters, but I know for a fact that the band doesn't chase what's popular or trendy. Even with djenty stylings being more prominent after their first two albums, that was more a feature of it being interesting to them and (as I said) having the production to do it convincingly.

I was reflecting again on our discussion about Roine's comments and also comments that other people have made about certain styles etc, and I think what's interesting is that I think all the Haken members have really broad tastes and interests in music. Not all the same as each other in terms of the things they really love, but they're all really open to essentially any style. And when one or more of them gets into a style, it naturally follows that the sound starts to seep into their music to varying degrees. When they're writing and arranging the songs, there will be particular segments or transitions that they just don't think work, but to my knowledge that's not been a case of "it's a style I don't like" but rather whether it works as part of that song or album.

Yeah those are fair points. I feel like early Haken was maybe a bit more classic prog, those first 2 albums have some proper epic length songs on them and those albums felt very inspired by 'classic prog', but then the last few I would say both have mostly shorter songs in comparison but also feel more like they fit in with the modern prog scene. I think it's cool when a band evolves but could be the band evolved in a way that wasn't for Roine.

[Fritzinger]

Taurus has a somewhat Tool-esque vocal delivery in the bridge before the last chorus. I can't think of a song where Ross like this before.

That section actually reminded me of System of a Down when I first heard it!

[ariich]

Yeah those are fair points. I feel like early Haken was maybe a bit more classic prog, those first 2 albums have some proper epic length songs on them and those albums felt very inspired by 'classic prog', but then the last few I would say both have mostly shorter songs in comparison but also feel more like they fit in with the modern prog scene. I think it's cool when a band evolves but could be the band evolved in a way that wasn't for Roine.

Yeah for sure, which is fair enough of course. I do think it's a shame though when people (professional musicians but also anyone else really) feel the need to hyperbolise or generalise instead of just saying "it's not for me".

I would say the first two albums are most clearly influenced by 90s Dream Theater, with some other bits thrown in. Those other bits include some classic prog for sure, but I don't think it's ever been a dominant part of their sound (unless we now count DT as "classic prog"!). Also, even though the next two albums were distinctly more modern sounding (those djenty stylings getting more prominent etc), I guess The Mountain also had some 70s influences and Affinity had 80s, so those probably also gave some classic flair to those albums too.

[King Postwhore]

Plus, I like a band influenced by the times as they continue their long careers.  Rush is a great example.  From adding keyboards to shorter songs, to dry vocals, to a slightly grungier sounds ect. 

A band with longevity, never sits still sonically.

[Zantera]

Plus, I like a band influenced by the times as they continue their long careers.  Rush is a great example.  From adding keyboards to shorter songs, to dry vocals, to a slightly grungier sounds ect. 

A band with longevity, never sits still sonically.

I think you always get a few of those like AC/DC where it becomes a joke "they keep making the same album" and the band is even on board with it themselves.  But I think for the most part, the bands that fade away or decline are the bands that get worse. You can stick to your lane if you want and work within a limited sound, but if you deliver good albums, people will be happy. Similarly you can expand your sound and try new things and if the result is good people will like it.

[King Postwhore]

Definitely with AC/DC but some bands are lucky enough to experiment,  make the music they want, and still be loved by fans.

I remember having a conversation with Rich & Charlie where we talked about the different styles of music they loved. From Toto to Meshuggah.  So ot definitely shows in their music.

[Ben_Jamin]

The Elephants Never Forget Track by Track was released today. I have to say, the topic is one fascinating thing to write a song about. You can tell Charlie was really passionate about writing it. I would say it came out amazing.

[romdrums]

The more I listen to this record, the more I like it.  In a fair and just world, Lovebite would be a massive hit single.  Had to hit repeat a few times on my way into work.  The o-way-oh's are catchy as hell!

[ariich]

The Elephants Never Forget Track by Track was released today. I have to say, the topic is one fascinating thing to write a song about. You can tell Charlie was really passionate about writing it. I would say it came out amazing.

Charlie's so funny - he always sounds so humble and awkward, but you can tell when behind that he's really into something. I think he did a cracking job with that song. It's in the lower half of the album for me just because of how amazing I find most of the songs, but it's still great and the lyrics especially are very evocative.

[frogprog]

Magenta vinyl just arrived today, nice😊

[Dublagent66]

Eh, with all due respect, while the Flower Kings (his main band) always swim in the symphonic prog pool, there is no way you are listening to them enough to really know them if you think their records are the same thing over and over and over.

I agree. And indeed I would broaden it out as that point equally applies to Roine's comments about Haken too. When someone is not particularly interested in or familiar with a style, then it's easy for them to write music off as "it all sounds the same".

Agreed.  I knew some years ago who didn't like Rush at all, and one criticism they all always threw out was, "Their music all sounds the same."      Right, because 2112 and Mystic Rhythms are like the same song.

I used to get that excuse from people all the time years ago.  A very lazy and unengaged response.  They were obviously confusing style with composition and arrangement.  My response to them was, "yes, all their songs definitely sound like Rush.  Who else are they supposed to sound like?" 

[Dublagent66]

The Elephants Never Forget Track by Track was released today. I have to say, the topic is one fascinating thing to write a song about. You can tell Charlie was really passionate about writing it. I would say it came out amazing.

It is amazing and for me it's the stand out track on the album at this point. 

[jammindude]

Ok, this album is REALLY starting to click with me. I’m still wrapping my head around Elephants, but at this point I think I can safely say that this is going to end up tied with Affinity for my #2 spot.

Maybe it’s just “new car smell” but WOW is this a fantastic album!!

[Kram]

Sempiternal Beings has really grown on me and is one of my favorites from the album now. Eyes Of Ebony is still my favorite, but very song on this album is good IMO.