Haken thread v. "Evening With" tour (some set spoilers)

[DoctorAction]

Pretty sure I walked past Ross at the DT show in London yesterday.

Conversely, he's probably saying to his mates right now, "Pretty sure I walked right past Doctor Action at the DT show last night." ...

Seems pretty unlikely see as Haken are currently in Germany on tour.

Oh. 

No, it was Ross, he told me. 

 

[Ben_Jamin]

The guys just posted a hilarious picture on Facebook. And the hilarity is heightened by a post by Angel Vivaldi. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Also for May, it will be very much a Fauna tour. I would expect less Virus (because they already toured it last year when out with Symphony X) and more non-single Fauna.

If that's the case, I am expecting Messiah Complex to stay, while maybe keeping Prosthetic/Invasion/Carousel. I am coming up with a plausible set at the moment with the current songs released, and sort of based around the current European set.

Since it'll be a Fauna tour, I am expecting mostly all of the album to be played with one or two songs being left off. I can wait a week to hear and see how they might fit into a set.


There is one song I do want to hear them play live, but It's a song that they won't likely play anytime soon, that song is Deathless.

[cramx3]

I'd love to see Deathless as well, and even more of Visions, but yeah, I dont expect that to happen.

[Glasser]

I'd love to see Deathless as well, and even more of Visions, but yeah, I dont expect that to happen.

Oh man that would rule! Deathless is a beautiful song. If they only played Celestial Elixir, Deathless, and Visions I would be happy. Nearly 50 minutes in only 3 songs.   

[cramx3]

I've seen Visions (the song) but the rest of the album is what I'd love to see. Sadly the time they did the full album at Progpower was the year I didn't go. I just feel like they won't be going back to this any time soon as their catalog of music grows.

[Metro]

They played Deathless when I saw them in 2016. Can confirm it’s great live.

[ariich]

Really good podcast interview with Pete here, including some stuff about his approach to music and the impact on Fauna: https://pod.link/1087245703/episode/c6808a44bfebbb66b0eeb863581caf1b

I've spoken to Pete quite a bit about this stuff but the interviewer asked some really interesting questions and even I learned things I didn't already know.

[KevShmev]

A new album in two days and this thread had fallen to the middle of page 2?  For shame, Haken fans. 

Anyway, Aquarius has gotten a few fresh listens from me this week (it's the next review a friend and I are doing offline), and it is a reminder of how good Haken was back when it felt like the melody was what mattered the most.  I honestly feel like the debut and The Mountain are 1a and 1b when it comes to what is their best.

[jammindude]

I’m already seriously ticked .

I preordered through Music Glue on December 10th and got a confirmation Email.

They are based in the UK, and currently their website says that’s it’s “processed” (not shipped…just processed) and that it’s due to arrive on March 2nd and not to contact them until after it hasn’t arrived by that date.

I’m kinda thinking I’m not going to get it for a long time if they haven’t even shipped it yet. 

[Mosh]

A new album in two days and this thread had fallen to the middle of page 2?  For shame, Haken fans. 

Anyway, Aquarius has gotten a few fresh listens from me this week (it's the next review a friend and I are doing offline), and it is a reminder of how good Haken was back when it felt like the melody was what mattered the most.  I honestly feel like the debut and The Mountain are 1a and 1b when it comes to what is their best.

I've been trying to binge the discography this week in the run-up to the new album, currently spinning The Mountain (literally, btw if anyone has any leads on an affordable copy of Vector on vinyl, that's all I'm missing).

My takeaway from Aquarius honestly was that while I was blown away by it when it came out, this band has evolved so much that it was a little tough to go back. The vocal melodies were really strong, but I felt like a lot of what was happening instrumentally was a bit bland during vocal sections (lots of held chords, clean arpeggios, standard prog rock cliches, etc). During instrumental breaks, things naturally got more interesting, but it felt like instruments and vocals were sometimes in conflict with each other. It made me really appreciate the medley they put together for the album as there are fragments I like, but I struggled to find a track that I would like to hear in its entirety at a concert. Celestial Elixir is a huge standout, though.

Back before The Mountain came out, I saw Aquarius and Visions as pretty interchangeable, if anything I probably listened to Aquarius a bit more. Now in retrospect, I actually hear quite a bit more distance between the two albums than I appreciated back in the day. Visions feels a lot more arranged, a bit more coherent, the metal elements are a little more refined. I still think vocals and music don't quite fit together as naturally as on the later albums, but it's moving in the right direction. The title track, Insomnia, Shapeshifter, Nocturnal Conspiracy are all tracks I would love to hear live (I actually did get the title track live, but I wouldn't mind if they brought it back).

The Mountain could very well be my favorite album of all time. They really went all out on this one and it still feels fresh a decade later. Curious how I'll handle the next few albums as none of them immediately grabbed me, but there are a lot of things about their current direction that I really enjoy. Pumped for Fauna!

[NoFred]

I’m already seriously ticked .

I preordered through Music Glue on December 10th and got a confirmation Email.

They are based in the UK, and currently their website says that’s it’s “processed” (not shipped…just processed) and that it’s due to arrive on March 2nd and not to contact them until after it hasn’t arrived by that date.

I’m kinda thinking I’m not going to get it for a long time if they haven’t even shipped it yet. 

Same. Ordered 12/13. Saw on Haken subreddit that UK and Canadian orders have gotten shipment confirmations. Maybe it’s a US specific annoyance.

[The Letter M]

I’m already seriously ticked .

I preordered through Music Glue on December 10th and got a confirmation Email.

They are based in the UK, and currently their website says that’s it’s “processed” (not shipped…just processed) and that it’s due to arrive on March 2nd and not to contact them until after it hasn’t arrived by that date.

I’m kinda thinking I’m not going to get it for a long time if they haven’t even shipped it yet. 

Same. Ordered 12/13. Saw on Haken subreddit that UK and Canadian orders have gotten shipment confirmations. Maybe it’s a US specific annoyance.

I ordered mine from Burning Shed and haven't gotten any updates on it. Meanwhile, they sent out my Porcupine Tree Deadwing Deluxe artbook earlier this week and it's on its way, but shipping from the UK to the US has been awfully slow this year so far. Honestly, I probably won't get my copy of Fauna]/i] for a few weeks. At least it'll be streaming, I hope!

-Marc.

[jammindude]

I love Aquarius!  In fact, I find it quite a bit more unique and original than Visions.   I don’t mean that in a bad way though. If anyone was going to make a perfect homage to SFAM, it might as well be Haken. They did a fantastic job of it. I absolutely love the album as a beautiful tribute to one of the greatest progressive metal albums of all time.

But The Mountain was truly when Haken found Haken.  It went through the stratosphere for me. It actually beats SFAM and currently sits just below Hemispheres as my all time favorite album.

[jammindude]

If I had known how bad shipping was from the UK at the time, I would have never done it.

I ordered IQs new live album right about the same time, and Royal Mail completely lost track of it at the beginning of January. I thought it was just completely gone. I was about to contact IQHQ and tell them that it was lost in the mail after not having heard a word for six weeks. But then suddenly it magically turned up in LA last Thursday, and then arrived at my doorstep on Monday.

Still though, it took almost 8 weeks from order to arrival to get here.

[me7]

Same. Ordered 12/13. Saw on Haken subreddit that UK and Canadian orders have gotten shipment confirmations. Maybe it’s a US specific annoyance.

InsideOut EU also dropped the ball on this one. My preorder didn't ship until yesterday. No chance that it will arrive on time.

[Fritzinger]

Same. Ordered 12/13. Saw on Haken subreddit that UK and Canadian orders have gotten shipment confirmations. Maybe it’s a US specific annoyance.

InsideOut EU also dropped the ball on this one. My preorder didn't ship until yesterday. No chance that it will arrive on time.

Oh man me7, I'm so sorry, I just saw that you wrote me a PM like forever ago 

Yes same for me. Weirdly, the shipment was announced (labe created) at UPS over a month (!) ago but nothing happened since then until it was actually shipped yesterday.

It ships from Germany and I'm in Vienna however so I think I'll get it by Monday.

[ariich]

I feel like this happens so frequently when pre-ordering directly from labels or their main distributors, which is why I never do it. Do people do it because of the special versions/bundles that are available through that route?

[Zydar]

Rich, did you get your copy directly from Pete? And how far in advance did you get yours?

[ariich]

Rich, did you get your copy directly from Pete? And how far in advance did you get yours?

He sent it to me digitally very soon after the album was mastered, so I've obviously been in an incredibly fortunate position.

He has a physical copy for me but I'm not going to see him for ages so I'll be way behind the rest of you on that!

[KevShmev]

A new album in two days and this thread had fallen to the middle of page 2?  For shame, Haken fans. 

Anyway, Aquarius has gotten a few fresh listens from me this week (it's the next review a friend and I are doing offline), and it is a reminder of how good Haken was back when it felt like the melody was what mattered the most.  I honestly feel like the debut and The Mountain are 1a and 1b when it comes to what is their best.

I've been trying to binge the discography this week in the run-up to the new album, currently spinning The Mountain (literally, btw if anyone has any leads on an affordable copy of Vector on vinyl, that's all I'm missing).

My takeaway from Aquarius honestly was that while I was blown away by it when it came out, this band has evolved so much that it was a little tough to go back. The vocal melodies were really strong, but I felt like a lot of what was happening instrumentally was a bit bland during vocal sections (lots of held chords, clean arpeggios, standard prog rock cliches, etc). During instrumental breaks, things naturally got more interesting, but it felt like instruments and vocals were sometimes in conflict with each other. It made me really appreciate the medley they put together for the album as there are fragments I like, but I struggled to find a track that I would like to hear in its entirety at a concert. Celestial Elixir is a huge standout, though.

Back before The Mountain came out, I saw Aquarius and Visions as pretty interchangeable, if anything I probably listened to Aquarius a bit more. Now in retrospect, I actually hear quite a bit more distance between the two albums than I appreciated back in the day. Visions feels a lot more arranged, a bit more coherent, the metal elements are a little more refined. I still think vocals and music don't quite fit together as naturally as on the later albums, but it's moving in the right direction. The title track, Insomnia, Shapeshifter, Nocturnal Conspiracy are all tracks I would love to hear live (I actually did get the title track live, but I wouldn't mind if they brought it back).

The Mountain could very well be my favorite album of all time. They really went all out on this one and it still feels fresh a decade later. Curious how I'll handle the next few albums as none of them immediately grabbed me, but there are a lot of things about their current direction that I really enjoy. Pumped for Fauna!

I am not a musician, but I will take the bolded over their current "let's see how rhythmic changes we can accomplish in under a minute" approach or the general feeling of needing to send out a search party to find the memorable melodies in their most recent material.  Not saying it's not melodic, just that it's not ones I find memorable.  On albums like Aquarius and The Mountain, the melodies just spill out of the speakers non-stop.  I have used this analogy with DT before, and I think it applies with Haken as well: to me, the technical part of the band is the icing on the cake, not the actual cake.  And it feels like Haken has let the technical part of the band become the cake, with the melodies the icing, and far too often, we are getting cupcakes where little to no icing was applied.  I gave Messiah Complex another try this week and it actually annoyed me, to where I muttered to myself, "What the hell happened to this band?"  I also listened to a couple of the new songs again last night, and sitting here this morning, I remember nothing about either of them.  Bands change, I get it, but their approach now is just not for me.  I will still give the new album several tries, but I am not optimistic.  I will keep an open mind, however.

I love Aquarius!  In fact, I find it quite a bit more unique and original than Visions.   I don’t mean that in a bad way though. If anyone was going to make a perfect homage to SFAM, it might as well be Haken. They did a fantastic job of it. I absolutely love the album as a beautiful tribute to one of the greatest progressive metal albums of all time.

But The Mountain was truly when Haken found Haken.  It went through the stratosphere for me. It actually beats SFAM and currently sits just below Hemispheres as my all time favorite album.

I never thought of Visions as a homage to Scenes. Interesting.  I think Visions is certainly the least best of the first four albums, which makes it, for me, their 4th best album overall, but I do love the dirt and grit of the album. 

[ariich]

Not saying it's not melodic, just that it's not ones I find memorable.  On albums like Aquarius and The Mountain, the melodies just spill out of the speakers non-stop.

I'm not commenting on whether Fauna will be for you - I hope you'll like it but completely accept you may not be keen. But on this specific point, especially with bands like Haken whose music is intricate, it's very easy to say this about music that we've heard a lot over a long period of time. As I recall, it took quite a while to win you over to Haken's early work back in the day.

[KevShmev]

Not saying it's not melodic, just that it's not ones I find memorable.  On albums like Aquarius and The Mountain, the melodies just spill out of the speakers non-stop.

I'm not commenting on whether Fauna will be for you - I hope you'll like it but completely accept you may not be keen. But on this specific point, especially with bands like Haken whose music is intricate, it's very easy to say this about music that we've heard a lot over a long period of time. As I recall, it took quite a while to win you over to Haken's early work back in the day.

True, but that was mostly because of Ross' voice, which was a hair in the soup for me for quite a while.  I kept listening, though, because of how good the music was and how strong the overall melodies were.

I still can't say I love Ross' voice overall, but he has a lot of moments I enjoy now. 

[ariich]

Not saying it's not melodic, just that it's not ones I find memorable.  On albums like Aquarius and The Mountain, the melodies just spill out of the speakers non-stop.

I'm not commenting on whether Fauna will be for you - I hope you'll like it but completely accept you may not be keen. But on this specific point, especially with bands like Haken whose music is intricate, it's very easy to say this about music that we've heard a lot over a long period of time. As I recall, it took quite a while to win you over to Haken's early work back in the day.

True, but that was mostly because of Ross' voice, which was a hair in the soup for me for quite a while.  I kept listening, though, because of how good the music was and how strong the overall melodies were.

I still can't say I love Ross' voice overall, but he has a lot of moments I enjoy now. 

Actually you didn't think the vocal melodies were good either, but yes you generally thought the music was good.

To quote the Kev of almost exactly 9 years ago: "Musically, yeah, they are good, but the vocals and vocal melodies leave a lot to be desired."

See:

Same here.  I tried to give The Mountain a whirl again the other day, but about five tracks in, I was like, okay, enough of this, and I switched over to something much better (see: most of what I own already).  Musically, yeah, they are good, but the vocals and vocal melodies leave a lot to be desired. And that Cockroach King song is still one of the worst things I've ever heard (as far as vocal melodies go).

[KevShmev]

Wow, diving back nine years to attempt a gotcha moment!  Impressive  

Yep, that is what I said, and that is what I thought.  Not sure how that is in contrast with what I said just now.  When I said, "I kept listening, though, because of how good the music was and how strong the overall melodies were," do not assume I meant vocal melodies when talking about how strong I thought the overall melodies were (although I am sure I was bit all over the place back then when trying to get into them due to how different my reactions were from listen to listen due to the nature of the vocals).  The music was good (see: the playing) and the overall melodies were good (see: the music).  The playing and the musical melodies are not the same, as I would submit a fair amount of their newer music is very strong when it comes to playing, but lacking, for me, in the musical melodies category.  As always, YMMV.

[emtee]

It's a fine line for me...the noodling or ever more so, the quirkiness aspect to music can often times be a real turn-off for me. Cockroach King is an example of a song that I can't connect with on any level.

I am and will always be in the minority on this but The Mountain is my least favorite of theirs. Loved the last two. The new songs seem to have elements of that quirkiness at times so it will be interesting to see how I connect with the new one.

[WilliamMunny]

Interesting discussion regarding Aquarius...

I too revisited the catalog this week, and while I've always held Aquarius in high regard, it was typically my least played album—not unlike DT's WDADU.

But this week, once the final notes of "Celestial Elixir" faded off, I decided to just listen to the whole thing again. And then a third time.

Man, I LOVE this album now. So much so that I'd probably rank it 2nd, right behind The Mountain.

Yes, it's a little all over the place, and yes, the band is very raw and young, but holy hell are there a ton of melodies in these songs. In fact, I think Ross sounds soooooo much more natural on this than he does for the majority of the Virus/Vector albums.

I think that, while it's certainly heavy, Aquarius is largely informed by classic prog, and there isn't a hint of Djent to be heard (a genre I have no use for).

As for Fauna, I've listened to the four singles multiple times, and as I type this, I still can't remember a single melody from any of the songs. In fact, the two 'simpler' songs feel more inspired by something like 21 Pilots, which is not a good thing in my book.

I will definitely give the new album a fair shake, but having already heard 40% off it, the fact that I have little to no desire to listen to these 4 tracks again is not a good sign.

I hope (and sorta expect) to be proven wrong, but my big takeaway from this week is a brilliant reevaluation of Haken's debut.

[ariich]

Wow, diving back nine years to attempt a gotcha moment!  Impressive  

Can you tell I work in audit? To be clear though, it wasn't intended as a gotcha but was more a check on my own memory.

Yep, that is what I said, and that is what I thought.  Not sure how that is in contrast with what I said just now.  When I said, "I kept listening, though, because of how good the music was and how strong the overall melodies were," do not assume I meant vocal melodies when talking about how strong I thought the overall melodies were (although I am sure I was bit all over the place back then when trying to get into them due to how different my reactions were from listen to listen due to the nature of the vocals).  The music was good (see: the playing) and the overall melodies were good (see: the music).  The playing and the musical melodies are not the same, as I would submit a fair amount of their newer music is very strong when it comes to playing, but lacking, for me, in the musical melodies category.  As always, YMMV.

Fair enough, I guess I just see music's melodies (except when harsh vocals are used) as being heavily - though not wholly, I accept - driven by the vocal melodies. I was just pointing out that those vocal melodies took you quite a long time to come around on - and by the way you're far from alone in that. But it's possible you and I define slightly some of these terms slightly differently - for example, if I think the playing is good/skilled, I would talk about the performance rather than the music, and if I refer to the music I'd be talking about the composition (notes, riffs, chords etc.) regardless of performance.

EDIT: And for completeness, I think of "melody" as the focal line that sits on top of the rest of the music, which is usually in the form of a vocal line or instrumental lead line.

[me7]

I think that, while it's certainly heavy, Aquarius is largely informed by classic prog, and there isn't a hint of Djent to be heard (a genre I have no use for).

I consider "Drowning in the Flood" to be rather djenty...

[ariich]

I think that, while it's certainly heavy, Aquarius is largely informed by classic prog, and there isn't a hint of Djent to be heard (a genre I have no use for).

I consider "Drowning in the Flood" to be rather djenty...

Definitely. And Blind from the demo as well (plus moments in a couple of other songs on there).

It's always been a feature in their guitar style. A bit more so from The Mountain onwards, and especially on Vector/Virus which was the style they were going for on those two.

[KevShmev]

I hope (and sorta expect) to be proven wrong, but my big takeaway from this week is a brilliant reevaluation of Haken's debut.

Hell yeah!    I honestly think it is one of the best debut albums any rock band has ever done.

Wow, diving back nine years to attempt a gotcha moment!  Impressive  

Can you tell I work in audit? To be clear though, it wasn't intended as a gotcha but was more a check on my own memory.

All good, sir. 

Fair enough, I guess I just see music's melodies (except when harsh vocals are used) as being heavily - though not wholly, I accept - driven by the vocal melodies. I was just pointing out that those vocal melodies took you quite a long time to come around on - and by the way you're far from alone in that. But it's possible you and I define slightly some of these terms slightly differently - for example, if I think the playing is good/skilled, I would talk about the performance rather than the music, and if I refer to the music I'd be talking about the composition (notes, riffs, chords etc.) regardless of performance.

EDIT: And for completeness, I think of "melody" as the focal line that sits on top of the rest of the music, which is usually in the form of a vocal line or instrumental lead line.

All noted. What I noticed about this band, and I still notice it, is how solo-happy they aren't, at least relative to a band like Dream Theater, the band they seemed to get compared to a bit.  Haken rarely sees one guy go off with an extended solo.  They might have an extended instrumental section with a bunch of little solos in there, all pretty short, which gives a nice feeling of it being a full band instrumental section rater than DT's "okay, here is the long guitar solo, and now here is the long keyboard solo" method.  And to be clear, I prefer Dream Theater to Haken by a pretty wide margin overall, but that approach is really what I liked about Haken's music in the earlier days.  It just feels like too often now, they are content to just riff away and move from breakneck rhythm to another to demonstrate how in synch they are as a band. Impressive as hell musically, without a doubt, but feels more like a sporting event than a song at times.

[ariich]

What I noticed about this band, and I still notice it, is how solo-happy they aren't, at least relative to a band like Dream Theater, the band they seemed to get compared to a bit.  Haken rarely sees one guy go off with an extended solo.  They might have an extended instrumental section with a bunch of little solos in there, all pretty short, which gives a nice feeling of it being a full band instrumental section rater than DT's "okay, here is the long guitar solo, and now here is the long keyboard solo" method.  And to be clear, I prefer Dream Theater to Haken by a pretty wide margin overall, but that approach is really what I liked about Haken's music in the earlier days.  It just feels like too often now, they are content to just riff away and move from breakneck rhythm to another to demonstrate how in synch they are as a band. Impressive as hell musically, without a doubt, but feels more like a sporting event than a song at times.

Some really interesting observations. So, I can assure you that the suggestions at the end of your post are not at all the intention of the band. They're very focused on composition. To an extent they always have been, but actually more so from The Mountain onwards. Aquarius and the demo - for all their strengths - had quite a few songs that sort of ran from idea to idea without them putting much thought into it. Now, that doesn't mean that what the band finds compositionally interesting/coherent is the same as all fans, and of course they have always thrown in curveballs or sudden shifts (the trad jazz in Celestial Elixir being a top example) not all of which will work for everyone. So I'm not in any way suggesting you're wrong in how you feel/interpret the newer music, I'm only talking about the intention and priorities of the band.

You're spot on about solos though - the first two albums and the demo had more in the way of typically "wanky" prog solo sections, though as you say probably less indulgently than some bands like DT. But again since The Mountain it's not something they've been massively interested in. Linking to the other point about their compositional approach, they tend to focus more on composed lead lines rather than solos, so when they do include more traditional solos (rarely on keys, occasionally on guitar) it's because they think it's what serves the song best.

Again I'm only talking about the band's intentions and interests, no comment on how listeners should respond or interpret the music.

[me7]

Oh man me7, I'm so sorry, I just saw that you wrote me a PM like forever ago 

Yes same for me. Weirdly, the shipment was announced (labe created) at UPS over a month (!) ago but nothing happened since then until it was actually shipped yesterday.

It ships from Germany and I'm in Vienna however so I think I'll get it by Monday.

No need to apologize

I feel like this happens so frequently when pre-ordering directly from labels or their main distributors, which is why I never do it. Do people do it because of the special versions/bundles that are available through that route?

I like to order as close to the source as possible, in the hope that this way more of my money reaches the actual creators of the content, rather than managers of companies in between. But sadly, they don't seem to appreciate it.

[WilliamMunny]

I think that, while it's certainly heavy, Aquarius is largely informed by classic prog, and there isn't a hint of Djent to be heard (a genre I have no use for).

I consider "Drowning in the Flood" to be rather djenty...

Maybe, but not to my ears

Listen, the album is far from flawless (those growls  ), but considering how low I initially rated it, my point was more to underscore my newfound appreciation, not to dissect the album.

[ariich]

I feel like this happens so frequently when pre-ordering directly from labels or their main distributors, which is why I never do it. Do people do it because of the special versions/bundles that are available through that route?

I like to order as close to the source as possible, in the hope that this way more of my money reaches the actual creators of the content, rather than managers of companies in between. But sadly, they don't seem to appreciate it.

I can ask Pete but I honestly don't know if it makes much or any difference to them. The impression I've had is that a sale is a sale, and first-week sales are essentially a key performance measure for artists on major or major-ish labels.