Author Topic: Marvel Studios' Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (Spoilers!) - On D+ & Home Video!  (Read 4180 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 34923
Spider Man didnít have any build up. He was already immensely powerful when we were first introduced to him.

Well, he had 5 movies.  :P
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline jingle.boy

  • I'm so ronery; so sad and ronery
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 40722
  • Gender: Male
  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
Think if they'd just focused on Namors people going to war with Wakanda over the Vibranium and cut out all the convoluted bad writing about ironheart, the film would have been much more concise and better.  I have nothing against Ironheart the character or actor I just think they were crowbarred into this story to it's detriment. 
The whole thing blew up because of Ironheart's vibranium detector finding the underwater vibranium.  There was no inherent problem between Wakanda and Talokan.

And the escalation was Namor's whole "if you're not with me (in going to war with the surface world), then you're against me".
HIS/HE/HIM

Offline soupytwist

  • Posts: 2170
  • Gender: Male
  • cockblocking ass
Think if they'd just focused on Namors people going to war with Wakanda over the Vibranium and cut out all the convoluted bad writing about ironheart, the film would have been much more concise and better.  I have nothing against Ironheart the character or actor I just think they were crowbarred into this story to it's detriment. 
The whole thing blew up because of Ironheart's vibranium detector finding the underwater vibranium.  There was no inherent problem between Wakanda and Talokan.
#

That's fine.  But Namor then wanting Wakanda to go and kill the engineer who made the vibranium detector is all kinds of derpy writing.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 09:05:32 AM by soupytwist »

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 34923
I really enjoyed the movie but I can very much recognize the "derpy" writing of how the plot kicks off in general. I'd change in one of two ways (off the top of my head) that doesn't completely re-write the movie.

1) Eliminate the entire CIA/American element all together. Have Wakanda be the people finding vibranium in the ocean and going to claim it. They have a quick skirmish with some Talokans, which escalates to big bad war. Easy peasy.

2) If you want the America/CIA element in there, because the idea of them looking for Vibranium makes perfect sense too, then have a war brewing between Americans and Taloka. Namor goes to Wakanda for help since he considers them similar because of Vibranium and they want to stay neutral, so he attacks them.


I'd prefer 1.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11820
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
L&T definitely is going to take the torch as the worst MCU movie.  <insert Bosk rant on how Eternals is that movie>
I really wanted to like Love and Thunder. The basic plot wasn't horrible, but the comedy mostly fell flat and it felt like too much was left on the cutting room floor, which is the exact opposite of most bloated MCU movies these days. And I think it's time for Thor to stop trying to find himself. Feels like he's been doing that for 4 movies now.

I agree with all of that.  Except maybe the last sentence.  That's kind of Thor's thing, and it makes sense that he still would have been in that mode for Thor 4.  It's just a shame it fell so flat.  That movie had SO much potential and a lot of really good ideas.  The execution was just so poor.

My biggest issue with WF is that the final fight ended with "we good now?"  "yeah".  Like all that death and destruction was literally for nothing.
Yeah, The ending was kind of underwhelming. I think it was easy to get caught up in the emotion of the movie and overlook stuff that on subsequent viewings really stand out.

I still really enjoyed it, but I don't disagree at all about many of the things you identified that hurt the film.  Still easily the best of phase 4 for me.  But that's also more of an indictment of phase 4 than an endorsement of WF.  Still, the things I liked about WF far outweighed the things I didn't.  Overall, it was a success as far as I'm concerned, and I liked it a lot more than the first one.  If I were to rank the 4 phases together, WF feels to me like it would probably be about 1/3 of the way down the list, or a bit lower than that.  Good movie with a few things that just bugged me a bit that could have easily been better. 

L&T definitely is going to take the torch as the worst MCU movie.  <insert Bosk rant on how Eternals is that movie>

Well, yeah.  :biggrin:  But back to my "phase 4 rant" mode, it says a lot to me about phase 4 that, this far in, we have 2 films from the same phase that are competing for dead last on a lot of people's lists.  That just shouldn't be.  That does not seem to be consistent with a franchise having enduring high standards.  That, combined with how middling and flawed most of the upper half of phase 4 has been suggests a trend, and one that makes me sad as a fan of the MCU.

Which brings me to:
I really enjoyed the movie but I can very much recognize the "derpy" writing of how the plot kicks off in general. I'd change in one of two ways (off the top of my head) that doesn't completely re-write the movie....

Yeah, and here's the thing.  In prior phases, having an MCU film where I couldn't help myself thinking, "This film was a mess and could have been fixed if only they had done X" never really happened.  In phase 4, it has been a common theme.  Nothing--or at least, very little--in phases 1-3 needed to be "fixed."  Phase 4?  The majority of films.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online DoctorAction

  • Posts: 1673
  • Everyday Glory
Just watched this. Some great acting but overall it bored me and I looked forward to the end. Also:

Namor's wings looked ridiculous.
The girl in the Transformers comic book suit seemed totally irrelevant.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 48764
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Watched the Assembled behind-the-scenes feature on Disney +.  Very nice.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 18482
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
We finally watched it last night on Disney+.  I might have fallen asleep a few times.

The story itself wasn't horrible, but it could've been trimmed up a bit, perhaps even a lot.  Mostly though, I felt like it was a story about a bunch of secondary characters from the first Black Panther movie, and a few new ones, and a new threat from someone we've never heard of that seemed kinda half-baked and misguided.  And some other stuff thrown in just to tie it to other MCU stuff, kinda.  Overall I found myself just not caring about a lot of what was going on.

Online DoctorAction

  • Posts: 1673
  • Everyday Glory
Think if they'd just focused on Namors people going to war with Wakanda over the Vibranium and cut out all the convoluted bad writing about Ironheart, the film would have been much more concise and better.  I have nothing against Ironheart the character or actor I just think they were crowbarred into this story to it's detriment.  Also think it won't help her own show when it arrives because they've made her to powerful to early (she basically goes toe to toe with Namor in the final battle).

They nerfed her at the end by Shuri saying she couldn't take the Wakandan suit with her, so she's back to square one and building her own suit again once she's back at MIT or wherever she lives.

-Marc.

Yeah that was another example of a plot contrivance.  But it's wasn't really the point, the suit itself isn't the problem as such, it's the fact that she basically has been introduced in this film already an amazing engineer and skilled pilot.  Should have had the Ironheart TV show come out first and show her struggles building that first Mech we see and the issues learning to pilot it - that show could have ended with her being approached to build the Vibranium finding machine - linking up nicely to being of this film.

That would have been much better.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 48764
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
We finally watched it last night on Disney+.  I might have fallen asleep a few times.

The story itself wasn't horrible, but it could've been trimmed up a bit, perhaps even a lot.  Mostly though, I felt like it was a story about a bunch of secondary characters from the first Black Panther movie, and a few new ones, and a new threat from someone we've never heard of that seemed kinda half-baked and misguided.  And some other stuff thrown in just to tie it to other MCU stuff, kinda.  Overall I found myself just not caring about a lot of what was going on.
Well, that is certainly a take on it.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 34923
It kind of had to focus on secondary characters.


And for any movie, falling asleep during it several times kind of impacts your perception of it. Maybe the movie bored you. Thatís cool. But if I fell asleep in any movie, I missed too much to actually review it or judge it. You know?

To this day I donít talk about incredible 2 cause I fell asleep a few times at the theater. So I donít remember it making any sense. Obviously.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 14378
  • Gender: Male
It kind of had to focus on secondary characters.


And for any movie, falling asleep during it several times kind of impacts your perception of it. Maybe the movie bored you. Thatís cool. But if I fell asleep in any movie, I missed too much to actually review it or judge it. You know?

To this day I donít talk about incredible 2 cause I fell asleep a few times at the theater. So I donít remember it making any sense. Obviously.

True, and not always does the movie itself be the reason one might fall asleep. Sometimes you put something on and you just happen to be tired that day/evening, or your mind just isn't into it at the time, so you find yourself distracted or drifting. I agree with Adami, though, in that if you didn't see the whole thing, it doesn't seem fair to really judge or review it. It would be like taking a couple bites out of a meal and not tasting the whole thing, then reviewing it. Sure, you experienced SOME of it, but you missed out on the whole experience.

-Marc.
ATTENTION - YES FANS! The YES SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 18482
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Okay, I guess I wasn't clear.  I was tired, but basically the story was not engaging me.  I didn't care about the characters, and I didn't care about the story.  If a movie is engaging me and makes me care, I do not fall asleep.  But this was boring, and stupid.

Wakanda has always been the sole source of vibranium, because it is where the meteorite that brought it hit Earth.  Now it turns out that there was a second meteorite, also bringing vibranium, and furthermore it spawned another highly advanced civilization, one that in some ways exceeds Wakanda, yet has remained hidden all this time, just like Wakanda.  Their emissary seems to be some guy with tiny little wings on his ankles which somehow defy all known physics and enable him to fly and even maneuver and fight in mid-air.  And an American student designed a device which can detect vibranium, so they want to kill her.  And since Wakanda does not agree with killing her, Wakanda will instead be the first nation to get wiped out by the new bad guys.  Come on.  None of that makes any fucking sense.

Meanwhile, some of the Dora Milaje are having some personal issues.  I suppose that could have been interesting if I cared about them and their personal issues.

Also, Martin Freeman and Julia Louis-Dreyfuss were in it.  I do not think that they could have been interesting under any circumstances.

It is possible that after I nodded off the first time, I missed something that might have made things more interesting, but this was not very engaging movie.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 14035
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Ok, now I feel a little like a simpleton because Orbert just described the plot perfectly, and with the exception of the physics of the flying bad guy, I fail to see how any of that DIDNíT make sense.  :sad: :huh:
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 48764
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Wakanda has always been the sole source of vibranium, because it is where the meteorite that brought it hit Earth.  Now it turns out that there was a second meteorite, also bringing vibranium, and furthermore it spawned another highly advanced civilization, one that in some ways exceeds Wakanda, yet has remained hidden all this time, just like Wakanda.  Their emissary seems to be some guy with tiny little wings on his ankles which somehow defy all known physics and enable him to fly and even maneuver and fight in mid-air.  And an American student designed a device which can detect vibranium, so they want to kill her.  And since Wakanda does not agree with killing her, Wakanda will instead be the first nation to get wiped out by the new bad guys.  Come on.  None of that makes any fucking sense.
Hey, if you didn't like it, you didn't like it.  But you could type out the plot of almost any superhero film and end it with "None of that makes any fucking sense."   :lol
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 25083
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Wakanda has always been the sole source of vibranium, because it is where the meteorite that brought it hit Earth.  Now it turns out that there was a second meteorite, also bringing vibranium, and furthermore it spawned another highly advanced civilization, one that in some ways exceeds Wakanda, yet has remained hidden all this time, just like Wakanda.  Their emissary seems to be some guy with tiny little wings on his ankles which somehow defy all known physics and enable him to fly and even maneuver and fight in mid-air.  And an American student designed a device which can detect vibranium, so they want to kill her.  And since Wakanda does not agree with killing her, Wakanda will instead be the first nation to get wiped out by the new bad guys.  Come on.  None of that makes any fucking sense.
Hey, if you didn't like it, you didn't like it.  But you could type out the plot of almost any superhero film and end it with "None of that makes any fucking sense."   :lol

I was gonna say...that can be applied to any MCU movie...I mean type out Endgame's plot and see how reasonable that is, and we all collectively agree that's a masterpiece.
HIS/HE/HIM


Lonestar, speaking wise.   :)

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 34923
Bob, sounds like the movie wasnít for you. Itís all good. I can see how a lot of it seems silly and uninteresting even if I ended up really digging it. I can still notice a lot of the flaws you point out.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline soupytwist

  • Posts: 2170
  • Gender: Male
  • cockblocking ass
Needed a more focused plot could have started by trimming out Freeman, Dreyfuss and Ironheart.

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 14378
  • Gender: Male
Needed a more focused plot could have started by trimming out Freeman, Dreyfuss and Ironheart.

While I don't disagree, I do enjoy seeing Ironheart here. This film definitely had a Herculean task of continuing the legacy of the Black Panther, while also trying to introduce Namor and Talokan, but also setting up other things down the line with the MCU, such as Ironheart herself, and whatever Val has cooking with the CIA and the Vibranium race (that will likely be continued with Captain America: New World Order and The Thunderbolts next year).

It's funny that a lot of complaints about MCU Phase 4 were that they didn't have a lot of connective tissue or that it didn't move the overarching MCU plot along, so when BPWF comes along and tries to do a bit of that, some fans see it as bloating a film that didn't try hard enough to focus on the Black Panther but tried to do way too much to connect itself to the over-all MCU plot. I personally enjoyed it and I think that once we are further along in to Phases 5 and 6, this film will make more sense when we get more of these characters down the line.

-Marc.
ATTENTION - YES FANS! The YES SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!