Author Topic: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time  (Read 1288 times)

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Offline emtee

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Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« on: September 14, 2022, 11:24:23 AM »
Not sure if this is a phase for me or something more permanent. I'm having a hard time staying focused and engaged during epics. Just wondered if any of my fellow old timers feel similarly. Lately, a rousing 4-6 minute song feels about perfect and when it's over I'm ready for a new song.

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2022, 11:42:53 AM »
Not really. I think it depends on how good the "epic" really is.

Long songs ended up becoming fashion for a lot of bands in the broad "progressive" genre. To me, a long song should always be an exciting journey and leave me astounded, no matter how old they are. I only usually tire of a long tune if it isn't that good.

And part of it is general mood, too. I mean, if I'm doing work around the house, I generally like to listen to stuff I can just casually hear in the background and know pretty well. Long songs, for me, are better when I'm working or specifically devoted to listening.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2022, 12:12:27 PM »
Yeah, I don't know if it's "changed" or not, but I'm not thrilled with length anymore (that's what she said).  I see some people look at the song times and go "awesome, nine minutes, this is going to be GREAT!" Yeah, well I found out there's a lot of shitty songs nine minutes long.  :)

I have morphed in general, though; a song for me is now about connection.   Is there something I can connect with there?  If yes, it's got a shot, if no, no can do. I'm less thrilled with gymnastics, just whether that song is communicating SOMETHING.


Offline emtee

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2022, 12:15:04 PM »
Yeah, I don't know if it's "changed" or not, but I'm not thrilled with length anymore (that's what she said).  I see some people look at the song times and go "awesome, nine minutes, this is going to be GREAT!" Yeah, well I found out there's a lot of shitty songs nine minutes long.  :)

I have morphed in general, though; a song for me is now about connection.   Is there something I can connect with there?  If yes, it's got a shot, if no, no can do. I'm less thrilled with gymnastics, just whether that song is communicating SOMETHING.

Amen to this.

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2022, 12:19:30 PM »
Yeah there used to be a time when a long song on an album made me hyped but to Stadler's point, there's a lot of disappointing long songs and my dad usually says that a long song will make or break the album and I kinda agree. It still happens though that I see a tracklist before I hear an album and I get disappointed or hyped based on the lengths. For example - the new Mars Volta album being only short songs feels very lackluster to me, but if the album is great then that's a early negative that will be washed away quite fast.

In terms of focus in long songs it really depends on the song. If it's a good long song then you stay engaged but if it's a mediocre one and you zone out then it's probably a sign.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2022, 12:29:24 PM »
Yes. I used to really enjoy them but now I absolutely love them.
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2022, 12:37:41 PM »
Yeah, I don't know if it's "changed" or not, but I'm not thrilled with length anymore (that's what she said).  I see some people look at the song times and go "awesome, nine minutes, this is going to be GREAT!" Yeah, well I found out there's a lot of shitty songs nine minutes long.  :)

I have morphed in general, though; a song for me is now about connection.   Is there something I can connect with there?  If yes, it's got a shot, if no, no can do. I'm less thrilled with gymnastics, just whether that song is communicating SOMETHING.

Amen to this.

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2022, 12:55:31 PM »
I’d say it has. My first DT album was Octavarium, which got me hooked on longer songs. That got me into bands like Yes and ELP and especially Transatlantic. I loved the idea of an album-long song(if you’re one of those people that considers the Whirlwind to be one song). As I’ve gotten older and my tastes have changed, I’m more wary of longer songs. You have to make it worth my while if you want me to sit through a 20+ song. Just making it long for the sake of long doesn’t do it for me anymore. And oftentimes I find that “epic” songs follow the A Day in the Life method. You have 2 or more unfinished songs and you stitch em together loosely and call it an epic.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 01:11:41 PM by Metropolaris »

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2022, 01:17:54 PM »
I love me a good epic, but Epic doesn't not equal length, nor does length equal Epic.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2022, 01:18:32 PM »
Not really. I think it depends on how good the "epic" really is.
This exactly.

I see some people look at the song times and go "awesome, nine minutes, this is going to be GREAT!" Yeah, well I found out there's a lot of shitty songs nine minutes long.  :)
Exactly.  When I see a song length like that, especially from an artist that isn't prog/prog metal, I think, "Wow, this has a chance to be interesting!"  I no longer just expect greatness in long songs, especially from prog bands. Which is not to say that such greatness never happens anymore.
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2022, 01:18:55 PM »
my favorite song length has settled somewhere around the 6-9 minute range (nice  :hat) but longer songs can work in some context... a lot of the time they end up being confused, directionless slogs tho

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2022, 01:31:24 PM »
Yeah, I don't know if it's "changed" or not, but I'm not thrilled with length anymore (that's what she said).  I see some people look at the song times and go "awesome, nine minutes, this is going to be GREAT!" Yeah, well I found out there's a lot of shitty songs nine minutes long.  :)

I have morphed in general, though; a song for me is now about connection.   Is there something I can connect with there?  If yes, it's got a shot, if no, no can do. I'm less thrilled with gymnastics, just whether that song is communicating SOMETHING.

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Offline Samsara

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2022, 01:33:47 PM »
I love me a good epic, but Epic doesn't not equal length, nor does length equal Epic.

Sounds like you're making excuses Tim...wait.  :o

But yes, agreed. There are plenty of "epic" songs that aren't long in the tooth. "Wasteland" from 10 Years comes to mind (ironic considering the thread I just started).
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2022, 01:36:15 PM »
I love me a good epic, but Epic doesn't not equal length, nor does length equal Epic.

Sounds like you're making excuses Tim...wait.  :o


Wasn't it Dave Mustaine that said, "It's not how big your pencil is, it's how you write your name."?  :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2022, 01:39:30 PM »
 :lol

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2022, 01:45:17 PM »
If the song is good, length is good. If the song is bad, length is bad.
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2022, 02:03:37 PM »
If the song is good, length is good. If the song is bad, length is bad.

Basically.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2022, 02:11:14 PM »
I guess my feeling has changed slightly, but not much, and the specific reasons for that are pretty basic.  I guess the shorter version goes something like this:  I'm with Stadler that the whole "the new album has a song that will be 20 minutes, it's going to be so awesome!" thing is just silly.  Song length doesn't necessarily mean song quality.  With some bands, that's different.  DT has both a proven track record of mostly writing really good long songs, as well as being a band that my tastes align really well with.  So when I see a long running time on a song, my thought process is along the lines of, "oh, they're doing another mega-epic; they do these well, so I'm interested in hearing this."  That isn't really too different from how I felt back when I was new to DT, and despite that they wrote long songs as a matter of course, the REALLY long ones were an anomaly.  ACOS was one of a kind.  With Six Degrees, the thought of a 43-minute song in and of itself blew people's minds.  With Octavarium, we were going to be 8 albums and an EP in, and this was the third time they were going over 20 minutes.  Now, it is less rare, so that excitement of getting something unusual is lessened.  So that's the main difference.  But otherwise, I feel largely the same, at least as it applies to DT.

The second thing is that, because we have gotten more of them, they are less a "special event."  Since the three I mentioned above, we have gotten several more of what I call the "mega-epics"--those that approach or exceed 20 minutes.  ITPOE, TCOT, IT, and View.  I still get excited about checking out "the new epic" when we are starting a new album cycle and track lengths are revealed.  But as with anything, that enthusiasm isn't as high as it once was just because we've been down that road several times now, so it isn't as rare and unexpected.

With other bands, it's a little different.  It just depends on the band.  Neal Morse's various projects, including Transatlantic, have done so many epics.  Many are truly amazing.  Many others leave me feeling like, "I enjoy this while I'm listening, but it also isn't something I feel like I really need in my life."  For a band with a track record like that, seeing a track time doesn't necessarily get me excited.  I'm pretty much in just as much a "wait-and-see" mode as I am seeing a running time that is more "traditional."  But for a band that typically does NOT write longer songs, I might be much more hyped.

So basically, that's a long-winded way of saying:
If the song is good, length is good. If the song is bad, length is bad.
That's pretty much how I've always viewed it, and still do.
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2022, 02:35:39 PM »
Yeah, there are good and bad epics just like there are good and bad short songs. I don’t think my feelings towards the epics I enjoy have changed much over time, though I think I generally have less time to dedicate to the kind of listening needed to always enjoy an epic. But if I’m in the right time, place, and mood, I still enjoys a good epic track.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2022, 02:48:37 PM »
Not really.  I enjoy them if they are good songs and there's no guarantee that they will be just because of length. 

I will admit, as others have also stated, when I was younger I was probably more excited to see a long song on an album announcement and these days I'm a bit more cautiously optimistic.

I just was listening to the 17 minute Anesthetize by Porcupine Tree earlier, for the first time, and I loved it so that's proof right there that epic songs can still be pretty damn good.  It's just my approach to them has probably changed.

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2022, 03:19:25 PM »
Nope. Still love em. Still the greatest that prog has to offer.

While there might be some people who are like "the song is going to be good" because it's long, that's only because epics have such a great track record (no pun intended) in often *being* an album's best song. Or at the very least, even the most ardent detractors of that theory cannot deny that an epic would be the most eagerly anticipated song prior to an album's release.

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2022, 03:19:54 PM »
I dunno.  People.just don't have the time for music anymore..  Ok, somebody had to say it.. 😁
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Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2022, 04:05:13 PM »
when a song is longer, and is good, it totally seems greater in a lot of ways.

But for every longer song by an artist, prog or even otherwise, there's many if not a lot more longer songs by artists that are not good.

I suppose there are also the cases where a song is long, and it has 1 or 2 sections that are great, but listening to it is almost entirely focused on to just get to that amazing part. Some Post Rock has that.

Sometimes the length and wait for that part makes that part greater, more fulfilling, etc.

But in other cases, the rest of the song kind of feels like a waste of time, it ends up hurting the reason to listen to the whole epic repeatedly.

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2022, 04:49:49 PM »
I dunno.  People.just don't have the time for music anymore.. 

Wow, that’s just astonishing.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2022, 04:59:09 PM »
Yeah, I don't know if it's "changed" or not, but I'm not thrilled with length anymore (that's what she said).  I see some people look at the song times and go "awesome, nine minutes, this is going to be GREAT!" Yeah, well I found out there's a lot of shitty songs nine minutes long.  :)

I have morphed in general, though; a song for me is now about connection.   Is there something I can connect with there?  If yes, it's got a shot, if no, no can do. I'm less thrilled with gymnastics, just whether that song is communicating SOMETHING.

Good post.

Not sure if this is a phase for me or something more permanent. I'm having a hard time staying focused and engaged during epics. Just wondered if any of my fellow old timers feel similarly. Lately, a rousing 4-6 minute song feels about perfect and when it's over I'm ready for a new song.

Although, I think going through phases like this is kinda normal. Can't pinpoint anything but I think I've related in the past.  It will normally be one song in particular that will get me interested in longer pieces again.
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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2022, 05:38:33 PM »
If its a quality Epic then I love them just as much as i ever did.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2022, 05:42:42 PM »
I think I still love epics just as much as I used to, but I simply do not listen to them as much as before.  2112 is still my favorite song ever, but I can't tell you the last time I listened to it from start to finish in an engaged manner (vs having it playing while working or playing on the 'net).  A big part of it is that I listen to a lot more music than I used to, so I am always moving from this artist to that artist, many of whom do not do epics often at all or ever in many cases. 

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2022, 07:17:06 PM »
Epics are a fickle thing, them and me... when I was a fledgling progger in my late teens/early twenties, I used to be amazed at albums that had one (or sometimes two or three...or four, looking at you Yes...). They felt like musical marathons, an excuse to show off their performing and writing skills, an exercise in self-indulgence and musical masturbation, and when I discovered prog, the idea that rock and metal music could stretch beyond 4-8 minute songs felt exciting to me, no matter how good or bad the song really was.

Between the few that Rush did, one by Genesis, several by Yes, I definitely garnered an appreciation towards epics, and as I discovered more and more bands, I always gravitated towards listening to those side-length masterpieces first. In the case of The Flower Kings, I heard "Stardust We Are" the song before the rest of the album, despite that title track being the album closer. With Spock's Beard, I'm pretty sure I listened to "The Great Nothing" before any of their other songs. Now, in hindsight, these are definitely benchmark songs by these respective bands, and discography highlights for many fans, but had I gone in blind (without research of fan-recommendations) and listened to something like "Love Supreme" by TFK or "The Healing Colors Of Sound" by SB first, my opinions on them might have been different. When it came to discovering new bands and epics, I definitely did my research, found what was most well-liked and beloved, and started from there.

In the case of my second favorite band ever, Dream Theater, I came into them before Octavarium, so hearing that title track epic blew me away, and it definitely set a precedent for how I would perceive future epics by DT (and other bands). I would wrestle between picking ACOS or 8VM as my favorite of the two, but as I discovered SDOIT, that song definitely took the top spot for me.

So needless to say, I began my prog journey absolutely LOVING epics, even the mediocre ones, simply because they were so unlike most of the music I had ever heard before in my life. Now fast forward about twenty years, several dozen bands and hundreds of albums later, I think the idea of epics as exciting pieces of music has begun to wane on me. I still enjoy them a lot, and if they're written well, I'd say I even love them, but with people like Neal Morse, the album epic has slowly become less unique, especially as some bands in the 2010s have really dug into the 70s and 80s prog sounds and a lot of modern prog borrows from the masters of the heyday. That isn't to say there aren't bands writing NEW epics that don't instantly remind me of "2112" or "Supper's Ready" or "Tarkus", but for the most part, I'll listen to new epics and they tend to bring to mind a lot of older epics, even by the same artist! Neal was VERY criticized for self-plagiarism in the 2000s but has since made his epics a bit more varied (no more expected Spanish guitar/Flamenco section, or Gentle Giant Vocal breaks, etc.), but he still very much has his own style of crafting epics, especially with Mike Portnoy around to arrange them.

So, the TL:DR of it all is - Yeah, I guess my feelings have changed slightly. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the way the music just doesn't feel as fresh or exciting anymore, but for the most part, I still love a good epic, and heck, I may even still enjoy a bad one, too (looking at you "Monsters & Men" from TFK's Paradox Hotel).

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2022, 06:31:55 AM »
Not sure I would assume that Portnoy always arrange Neal's epics.  Neal is obviously awesome at arranging his own epics (see: the early Spock's years), so even if Portnoy helps, it's not really needed.

Also, no way is Monsters and Men a "bad" epic.  It is not one of their best, but the first 3/4 of the song is good and then that ending is nothing short of spectacular.

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2022, 08:18:39 AM »
Nope. Still love em. Still the greatest that prog has to offer.

While there might be some people who are like "the song is going to be good" because it's long, that's only because epics have such a great track record (no pun intended) in often *being* an album's best song. Or at the very least, even the most ardent detractors of that theory cannot deny that an epic would be the most eagerly anticipated song prior to an album's release.

Not to argue with you, but no.  That's my point.  SOMETIMES it's the albums best song, but other times - maybe even MOST times - it's not.  Rush has three album-side epics:  Fountain Of Lamneth, 2112, and Hemispheres. Only Fountain is the best song on that album and that's only because it's "Caress Of Steel".   Neither of the other two are, IMO, the best on those albums (Passage To Bangkok or Something For Nothing, and La Villa Strangiato).   Supper's Ready is, I'll give you that.  In the Yes catalogue, Close To The Edge is not (And You And I), Topographic Oceans is a mess with all four sides being epic but the sum not being greater than it's parts, though I suppose Gates is the best on Relayer.  Awaken - not an album side, but surely an "epic" - is on my favorite album of all time, and isn't even in the top THREE best songs on that record (the title track, Turn Of The Century and Wondrous Stories).   The two epics done for Keys are... lackluster at best.  ELP; Tarkus is, but Memoirs Of An Officer And A Gentleman (from Love Beach) is an ungodly mess.  Karn Evil 9 is tough, because the Second Impression is so famous, but is it the best song?  Not in it's totality (Still You Turn Me On or Jerusalem).


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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2022, 09:44:10 AM »
epics have such a great track record (no pun intended) in often *being* an album's best song

Maybe they have that track record with you personally, but I know for a fact that this is not a universally accepted truth.

Now that said, if you're in the mood for it, it can be good, but to answer the question the OP was asking; Yes. I guess my feeling about epics has changed. I don't really care whether the song is 4 or 26 minutes long, but in my opinion (and this is what has changed over time, since my tastes have changed) a lot of prog epics lack coherence, structure and memorability. Since this is a forum dedicated to Dream Theater, let's take the last few epics as an example; I think Illumniation Theory is a complete disjointed mess and one of the worst songs they have written in their entire career, and A View contains some cool stuff, but at the same time manages to also contain too much stuff that it structurally doesn't make sense. Now, the irony here is that objectively looking, A Change of Seasons and Octavarium kind of do the same thing (and Six Degrees is actually just six songs with an instrumental intro and crossfades, so that one doesn't even count), but since I heard those before I hold them in higher regard. I also feel like A Change of Seasons is actually meaningful; it tells a story, it's emotional as well, whereas the lyrics to Illumination Theory and A View are so obviously tacked on because they needed to have lyrics somewhere. They don't seem heartfelt or meaningful in the slightest.

When I was 15, the thought of having a ~20+ minute song (A Change of Seasons, The Divine Wings of Tragedy, Octavarium, The Odyssey, Close to the Edge, Dogs, etc.) was amazing to me, probably because it was different from what I was used to. Now I also know there's a lot more songs even that don't nearly live up to their runtime. Epics can be fun closers to albums if they actually serve a purpose, but the obligatory 'epic' as being the centerpiece, or the closing track of an album is a progressive (where's the progress?) rock/metal cliché that I wouldn't mind to lose.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Squ
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Offline emtee

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2022, 09:51:10 AM »
I think it's as much an age vs. time left metric for me. I turned the big six-O in April. As many have said, if it's a good and engaging epic from beginning to end then I most certainly will enjoy the ride. Awaken comes to mind, as does Dogs. But if there are sections that lose me, I'm not willing any more to wait until an engaging part begins. I have limited time...why waste it on something I don't want to hear.

Thanks for the replies.

Online Architeuthis

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Re: Has Your Feeling About Epics Changed Over Time
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2022, 11:27:54 AM »
I love epics if they tell a cool story and the music itself lends itself to tell the story even better.  Symphony X "The Odyssey" is epic in every way.
You can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast, you can make the most of the distance, first you need endurance first you've got to last....... NP