Father dies for spraying windshield fluid on another car

[dparrott]

Wow.  I'm not going to start a guns vs. no guns argument, but this kinda speaks for itself.

https://nypost.com/2022/07/21/dad-shot-dead-after-splashing-windshield-fluid-on-bmw/

[ProfessorPeart]

Sadly, I think this is only the beginning. With permitless concealed carry passing all over, this is how disagreements/arguments will be handled in this country. Not by everyone, obviously, but by many.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'll reiterate...

Why was that person so angry that he resorted to shoot someone. Why does that person not perceive the other as another person that deserves a chance to live and to settle it like humans.

Why does one resort to killing someone rather than dealing with the situation?

[Skeever]

I tell people this all the time - when you're out on the roads you really have to act like everyone around you is an unhinged maniac. Don't flip people the bird, don't honk, don't shout anything at anyone. Just drive, both hands on the wheel, relaxing music or an intriguing podcast on your stereo, and differ to virtually every act of aggression with total deference. I only commute 3 days per week and I still see total nutjob roadrage incidents on my way at least once per week. It's just best practice to just do as Zhuangzi suggests and be the Ying, especially in this screwed up violent world with these nutjobs packing heat these days.

[Chino]

Yep. I've tabled every bit of road reactions that I used to have. Too many nutjobs out there.

[El Barto]

The great irony here is that carrying a gun on me is what keeps my hostile reactions in check. I can't afford to create situations that might escalate.

[emtee]

The root cause for all this anger and hostility is an interesting topic. My inclination is that people feel such a sense of entitlement that anything less than subservience is considered an act of disrespect and punishable by death.

My wife and I had a very scary scenario unfold a couple days ago. We were waiting at a red light in line with many others. There was an entrance into a gas station and two thugs in a car who determined that we were supposed to inch forward or inch backward in order for them to try to squeeze out before the line of traffic at the red light cleared out after turning green. Their hostility began with rolling the windows down and yelling obscenities and honking the horn. Then they began throwing things at my truck. My wife was getting very nervous. Thank God the light turned green and we moved forward.  The assholes cut in front of the car behind us and continued yelling and throwing crap at my vehicle. I thought they were going to follow me but they turned left and I turned right. I wished that I would have been carrying because I thought we were going to be assaulted. All of this because the line of traffic at the red light wouldn't collectively move to let them out. They felt entitled and all of us disrespected their entitlement. Scary times. I honestly felt like they would have killed us in another few seconds and thought nothing of it, despite 20 witnesses. Their anger was frickin scary.

[KevShmev]

How awful. People are just crazy these days, I swear.

And I guess I will be the first to say it: as someone who would assume the worst from anyone trying to cut me off or run me off the road, why did the couple stop their car to call 911? That basically made themselves a stationary target for the nutjob in the BMW to go after.  Not like continuing to drive was a much better option, as you are then still at risk to get run into or off the road, but stopping altogether just seems like a tragic decision. The passenger couldn't call 911 while still moving?

[Stadler]

The root cause for all this anger and hostility is an interesting topic. My inclination is that people feel such a sense of entitlement that anything less than subservience is considered an act of disrespect and punishable by death.

It's probably my most favorite societal/cultural topic today.  I find it far more interesting than 95% of the socio-political discussions that are normally had.  I've tried to get my arms around it; I've posted some of the articles that have informed my thinking on this subject. 

[El Barto]

The root cause for all this anger and hostility is an interesting topic. My inclination is that people feel such a sense of entitlement that anything less than subservience is considered an act of disrespect and punishable by death.

It's probably my most favorite societal/cultural topic today.  I find it far more interesting than 95% of the socio-political discussions that are normally had.  I've tried to get my arms around it; I've posted some of the articles that have informed my thinking on this subject.

The way he describes the entitlement is hitting on exactly the point I made in the pissed off thread. It's a weird line connecting entitlement, which I don't think necessarily needs to be a pejorative word, and the disillusionment that leads to these sorts of things. How do we separate thinking you're entitled to something more than your worth and thinking you're entitled to the bare minimum that everybody should receive in a functional society? The latter being derived from what plenty of other societies are able to provide.

[King Postwhore]

It's happened to me before and I laughed thanking the person for the free windshield washer fluid.  We talk about entitlement, but I think we live in a world where people believe what they do and what they say are more important to anyone else and it's bordering on manic self-importance.

[Elite]

Killed for absolutely no reason by a complete lunatic with a gun. Nobody needs guns, crazy people least of all.

[Skeever]

The root cause for all this anger and hostility is an interesting topic. My inclination is that people feel such a sense of entitlement that anything less than subservience is considered an act of disrespect and punishable by death.

It's probably my most favorite societal/cultural topic today.  I find it far more interesting than 95% of the socio-political discussions that are normally had.  I've tried to get my arms around it; I've posted some of the articles that have informed my thinking on this subject.

The way he describes the entitlement is hitting on exactly the point I made in the pissed off thread. It's a weird line connecting entitlement, which I don't think necessarily needs to be a pejorative word, and the disillusionment that leads to these sorts of things. How do we separate thinking you're entitled to something more than your worth and thinking you're entitled to the bare minimum that everybody should receive in a functional society? The latter being derived from what plenty of other societies are able to provide.

When I saw the suspect was a 20 year old with a BMW. The entitlement alarm definitely went off

[Stadler]

The root cause for all this anger and hostility is an interesting topic. My inclination is that people feel such a sense of entitlement that anything less than subservience is considered an act of disrespect and punishable by death.

It's probably my most favorite societal/cultural topic today.  I find it far more interesting than 95% of the socio-political discussions that are normally had.  I've tried to get my arms around it; I've posted some of the articles that have informed my thinking on this subject.

The way he describes the entitlement is hitting on exactly the point I made in the pissed off thread. It's a weird line connecting entitlement, which I don't think necessarily needs to be a pejorative word, and the disillusionment that leads to these sorts of things. How do we separate thinking you're entitled to something more than your worth and thinking you're entitled to the bare minimum that everybody should receive in a functional society? The latter being derived from what plenty of other societies are able to provide.

I want to think about this a little bit; it's an interesting point.   Certainly the word is not pejorative when referring to the bare minimum, but my initial reaction is, that's not where the problems arise.  It's not the homeless that are shooting at cars on the highway; this guy here was tooling around in a BMW, which suggests a certain level of the pejorative entitlement.

[El Barto]

The root cause for all this anger and hostility is an interesting topic. My inclination is that people feel such a sense of entitlement that anything less than subservience is considered an act of disrespect and punishable by death.

It's probably my most favorite societal/cultural topic today.  I find it far more interesting than 95% of the socio-political discussions that are normally had.  I've tried to get my arms around it; I've posted some of the articles that have informed my thinking on this subject.

The way he describes the entitlement is hitting on exactly the point I made in the pissed off thread. It's a weird line connecting entitlement, which I don't think necessarily needs to be a pejorative word, and the disillusionment that leads to these sorts of things. How do we separate thinking you're entitled to something more than your worth and thinking you're entitled to the bare minimum that everybody should receive in a functional society? The latter being derived from what plenty of other societies are able to provide.

I want to think about this a little bit; it's an interesting point.   Certainly the word is not pejorative when referring to the bare minimum, but my initial reaction is, that's not where the problems arise.  It's not the homeless that are shooting at cars on the highway; this guy here was tooling around in a BMW, which suggests a certain level of the pejorative entitlement.

Fair point. At the same time I think we can safely assume that he/they are gangbangers. That seems to be a different variety of entitlement. There's certainly some of the pejorative variety in there, but also a fair amount disillusionment, as well.

Also, and to be clear this is all just spitballing on my point, as you said it's an interesting point, but I don't think disillusionment is a phenomenon pertinent to the homeless. They've already dropped out. Not to mention a focus on survival rather than self-improvement. The angry disillusioned seem to come from the group who've learned that the world they thought they were living in is not what's reflected in real life.

[lonestar]

I had an incident a while back where a dude in a truck was riding my bumper hard for no reason, it was fairly busy traffic in SF, so the road was clipping along but busy. He wouldn't back off, and I gave him the finger. He proceeded to stalk me for the next 15 miles, zooming past me, brake checking me, the whole nine yards. I had a plan to drive to my town, and straight to the police station about a mile from my house and park there, but managed to lose him at a freeway split.

I've never fucked around again, that scared the shit out of me. I am the chillest of drivers now, probably get better gas mileage for it too.

[TAC]

I had an incident a while back where a dude in a truck was riding my bumper hard for no reason, it was fairly busy traffic in SF, so the road was clipping along but busy. He wouldn't back off, and I gave him the finger. He proceeded to stalk me for the next 15 miles, zooming past me, brake checking me, the whole nine yards. I had a plan to drive to my town, and straight to the police station about a mile from my house and park there, but managed to lose him at a freeway split.

This is what I've told my son. If you think you are being followed or harassed, drive right to the police station.

Yep. I've tabled every bit of road reactions that I used to have. Too many nutjobs out there.

Yup.

[wolfking]

Yeah, there comes a time where you just have to calm your reactions down on the road to others.  I try and do that, and it's a good tool and test not to react and let it ruin your day, just forgot about them and turn the music up.

This story is fucking terrible and hopefully they find this piece of shit.

[Ben_Jamin]

I was driving down the freeway one time and this happened to me. I just said, in my own car to myself, "Thanks, car." Turned my wipers on and drove on. I then thought about it and laughed because of the cars I, more than likely, have done this to. It's also simple physics of going fast, spraying water, and being the recipient of the aftermath.

Driving itself can contribute to one's escalation of their anger and frustration. Driving involving human reactions to situations is fascinating. How the entire hassle of driving within a city, especially if the population is high density and there are not enough lanes for all the cars, is part of that fascination for me.

There was an incident here where a child was killed due to someone's road rage. The parents instigated the other driver, and he reacted by shooting at their car.

There's something there to consider about why people are frustrated, angry, and can't seem to keep cool enough to handle themselves when faced with sudden situations or circumstances they do not FEEL like dealing with at the moment. It's as if they would rather decide to go to the quick-fix solution so they can go about whatever they were trying to do before the obstacle came in and disrupted their life.

I try my best to aware of my surroundings while driving, which is looking ahead 5 cars down and behind as far as my mirror can see. If I see some wack-ass driver coming down the left lane twice as fast as the rest of traffic, I will move over if I see them quick enough and let them pass. There's lots of people that drive past the speed limit here on one freeway, it's to the point where it's become normal traffic that is driving at those speeds. It's interesting watching some of those fast drivers slow down because someone switches lanes, causing them to slow-down in the the process.

I do my best to avoid those situations that can end up being with those angry, frustrated people. There's many reasons as to why they are that angry or frustrated, so I don't try and find a reason why. They're obviously angry or frustrated enough for them to act on those emotions, and that's perfectly fine, everyone is entitled to feel those emotions. It's how you handle those situations where it gets even more interesting to me.

Or you get a guy getting upset because his precious BMW got sprayed by unholy water. It's like, why would you get that upset to shoot someone over it? How messed up has your day been to even react with a quick solution response?

Honestly, I think their big mistake was stopping. If someone is following you, why would you stop?

[Stadler]

JUst move over and let them go. I'm well-documented here as being a "get the hell out of the left hand lane" guy, but I find myself more and more just pulling over and letting people go. 

Here's another one (and how I would have handled it):
https://news.yahoo.com/disney-world-descends-chaos-2-123205091.html

"You won't let her back in line? How about this; you let her in, so we don't have to start from scratch, and you and your family go first, so there's no delay for you. Deal?"

There's an element to all of this; everyone now feels like it's personal.  Like someone is always trying to get one over on you.  It's got to stop; I'm trying to teach my 14-year-old this, that the world doesn't really give a rat's ass about you.  The world isn't out to get you; it's better/worse than that: it just doesn't care.  But YooToob, TikTok, whatever are FILLED with examples of people personalizing these events.   Yahoo News - a relatively mainstream, high-circulation source - has two or three stories a day about how "So-and-so (usually a representative for some special interest group) has four words for So-and-so (usually, these days, someone who either leads right politically, or has taken a less-than-fully-subservient role towards the first so-and-so)!" 

I think this is the evidence of the massive insecurity I write about.  In that Disney example, there is literally NO harm to the challenging party. NONE.   The person isn't NEW, she was there before.  They apparently weren't at the entrance, so the wait was not a second longer.  In fact, the confrontation actually HARMED them; they now didn't get the ride, they had to (potentially) deal with the injuries incurred, and (potentially) deal with the criminal aspect of the incident. You can't even argue there's a BENEFIT from keeping the woman from the line, since these are families; I'm going to assume (yes, ass, u, me) that the ONE person isn't significant enough to allow the ENTIRE second family to get in any faster.  This is pure vindictiveness, and purely about the self-worth, perception of the offensive family.

I know those that think our violence is all about "guns" will disagree, but I see ZERO difference between these two events.  This is about lashing out, this is about responding to "slights", whether real or perceived, in a way that preserves some artificial sense of self-worth. Obviously the outcome is perhaps different, but from an irrationality standpoint, a utility standpoint and a risk-reward standpoint, these are identical issues.

We need to find a way to ratchet this down, universally.

[Stadler]

The root cause for all this anger and hostility is an interesting topic. My inclination is that people feel such a sense of entitlement that anything less than subservience is considered an act of disrespect and punishable by death.

It's probably my most favorite societal/cultural topic today.  I find it far more interesting than 95% of the socio-political discussions that are normally had.  I've tried to get my arms around it; I've posted some of the articles that have informed my thinking on this subject.

The way he describes the entitlement is hitting on exactly the point I made in the pissed off thread. It's a weird line connecting entitlement, which I don't think necessarily needs to be a pejorative word, and the disillusionment that leads to these sorts of things. How do we separate thinking you're entitled to something more than your worth and thinking you're entitled to the bare minimum that everybody should receive in a functional society? The latter being derived from what plenty of other societies are able to provide.

I want to think about this a little bit; it's an interesting point.   Certainly the word is not pejorative when referring to the bare minimum, but my initial reaction is, that's not where the problems arise.  It's not the homeless that are shooting at cars on the highway; this guy here was tooling around in a BMW, which suggests a certain level of the pejorative entitlement.

Fair point. At the same time I think we can safely assume that he/they are gangbangers. That seems to be a different variety of entitlement. There's certainly some of the pejorative variety in there, but also a fair amount disillusionment, as well.

Also, and to be clear this is all just spitballing on my point, as you said it's an interesting point, but I don't think disillusionment is a phenomenon pertinent to the homeless. They've already dropped out. Not to mention a focus on survival rather than self-improvement. The angry disillusioned seem to come from the group who've learned that the world they thought they were living in is not what's reflected in real life.

I missed this yesterday; we're in agreement.  I don't think this is about the people who have dropped out. It's about entitlement, but it's also about EXPECTATION.  The bigger the expectation, the bigger the gap, the bigger the harm, when the entitlement doesn't pan out. 

I'm repeating myself from the above post, of course, but it bears repeating: this is a fundamental part of my position on this violence.  And it explains a lot of phenomenon:  racism, bigotry, road rage, mass killings...  it's easier to think that racism is just a "character flaw" and we can beat it out of people with harsh words, cancellation, etc., but how's that working for us?  (Hint: it's not).  It might be unfair, it might be irrational, it might be illogical, but from the purveyors' point of view, in many cases the hate arises from that gap in expectation versus entitlement.  We're qualified for that job, or that house, and we don't get it. Why?  Because of some arbitrary standard we can't understand; we're ENTITLED.  It must've been because they are a special interest group and are getting special treatment - a handout - at my expense.  I wrote about this over five years ago; nine million Obama voters voted for Trump because they didn't believe in the change anymore.  The change seemed overly concerned with trivialities (to them) like what bathroom to use and so on, while more and more of their jobs were, either real or perceived, shipped to Mexico. (I'm speaking in generalities here and not suggesting any of this is TRUE, or that I believe it - I don't - I'm just saying that it's the PERCEPTION that leads to a particular mindset.)

None of this is made up in my head; I've cited numerous articles from the field of psychology documenting this. We KNOW this is one of the mechanisms.   Yet, we seemingly ignore the science in favor of our gut instincts.  In politics, it's that the other side is DEPLORABLE or are LIBTARDS.  We've got examples above on the highway and at the theme parks.  In schools, it's opening fire, apparently.

[WilliamMunny]

JUst move over and let them go. I'm well-documented here as being a "get the hell out of the left hand lane" guy, but I find myself more and more just pulling over and letting people go. 

Here's another one (and how I would have handled it):
https://news.yahoo.com/disney-world-descends-chaos-2-123205091.html

"You won't let her back in line? How about this; you let her in, so we don't have to start from scratch, and you and your family go first, so there's no delay for you. Deal?"

There's an element to all of this; everyone now feels like it's personal.  Like someone is always trying to get one over on you.  It's got to stop; I'm trying to teach my 14-year-old this, that the world doesn't really give a rat's ass about you.  The world isn't out to get you; it's better/worse than that: it just doesn't care.  But YooToob, TikTok, whatever are FILLED with examples of people personalizing these events.   Yahoo News - a relatively mainstream, high-circulation source - has two or three stories a day about how "So-and-so (usually a representative for some special interest group) has four words for So-and-so (usually, these days, someone who either leads right politically, or has taken a less-than-fully-subservient role towards the first so-and-so)!" 

I think this is the evidence of the massive insecurity I write about.  In that Disney example, there is literally NO harm to the challenging party. NONE.   The person isn't NEW, she was there before.  They apparently weren't at the entrance, so the wait was not a second longer.  In fact, the confrontation actually HARMED them; they now didn't get the ride, they had to (potentially) deal with the injuries incurred, and (potentially) deal with the criminal aspect of the incident. You can't even argue there's a BENEFIT from keeping the woman from the line, since these are families; I'm going to assume (yes, ass, u, me) that the ONE person isn't significant enough to allow the ENTIRE second family to get in any faster.  This is pure vindictiveness, and purely about the self-worth, perception of the offensive family.

I know those that think our violence is all about "guns" will disagree, but I see ZERO difference between these two events.  This is about lashing out, this is about responding to "slights", whether real or perceived, in a way that preserves some artificial sense of self-worth. Obviously the outcome is perhaps different, but from an irrationality standpoint, a utility standpoint and a risk-reward standpoint, these are identical issues.

We need to find a way to ratchet this down, universally.

Learn something new every day–had no idea you had a teen at home.

I have a 14-year-old son as well, and this has become the primary focus of nearly every conversation over the past six months. Due (I suspect) in large part to social media, our son has become preoccupied with the reactions of others, or the lack there-of. It's literally gotten to the point where when he posts something and there aren't enough 'likes' (or whatever the hell they call it) it's affecting his mood and demeanor.

Obviously, there's an element of this that has always gone hand in hand with adolescence, but EVERYTHING is so amplified these days, including the emotional reactions that interactions inspire.

To Stad's point, we live in a cold, unforgiving universe that has no concern for the trivial pursuits of man. We, as a species, would do well to keep that in mind–I fear it will be our undoing.

[TAC]

We weren't at the Magic Kingdom yesterday, but we've seen this kind of thing before here. People are just fucking stupid. Why is it so difficult to be courteous?

[SwedishGoose]

The difference between USA and other countries is that you have easy access to guns.

I have been the victim of road rage here in Sweden but I have never ever feared that I would get shot for it.

I know the mantra is it's not guns but take away the gun from the driver of the BMW and what do you get? Most probably the father who died would have survived that day...

The easy acces to guns in the USA gets a lot of people killed. Sure, a few of them might get killed by other means but those other means are not as effective at killing people and will take more determination and effort leading to fewer people getting killed.

[Stadler]

The difference between USA and other countries is that you have easy access to guns.

I have been the victim of road rage here in Sweden but I have never ever feared that I would get shot for it.

I know the mantra is it's not guns but take away the gun from the driver of the BMW and what do you get? Most probably the father who died would have survived that day...

The easy acces to guns in the USA gets a lot of people killed. Sure, a few of them might get killed by other means but those other means are not as effective at killing people and will take more determination and effort leading to fewer people getting killed.

Have your opinion, I can't stop you, but at least use ACCURATE INFORMATION.  Your correlation is not substantiated by the data. 

Based on gun manufacturing, the number of guns has been increasing since the early 90's.

BUT, on a household-by-household basis, gun ownership is going DOWN since the mid-70's.  So LESS PEOPLE have guns.  In other words, if you run across a random person on the street, they are LESS likely to have a gun now than, say, 20 or 40 years ago. There are more total guns, so fewer individuals are owning more guns each (we're up to an average of about 120 guns per person owing a gun, and even that's misleading, since 22% of people only own one gun).

BUT, and here's where your assessment goes right out the window, pre-pandemic, the HOMICIDE/MURDER rate has been steadily dropping since the 90's.   DROPPING.  LESS PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

MORE GUNS LESS KILLING.   That's not causation.   If anything, MORE GUNS are KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE. (I'm not making that argument, but if you are going to be fair and fact-based, that's a far more likely conclusion than the false equivalency of "ready access to guns".)  What we're seeing, of course, is a FOCUS on those killings that are caused by guns.  We're seeing more "event" type killings, which again, aren't about guns, they are about the notoriety of the event, driven by people that are frustrated, desperate and feeling unheard and unappreciated.

I get that there are studies that purport to say that "ready access to guns is the cause".  I'm patently saying that those studies are incorrect, and are likely an answer (a preconceived notion) looking for data.  They almost always gloss over the over-all trends, and they almost always use very targeted data.  For example, homicides when UP dramatically during the first year of the pandemic.  You can't ignore the fact that almost the entire nation went through some version of shutdown, a level of anxiety we haven't seen since at least 2001 and maybe longer, and simply jump right to trying to pin that on guns.

What's changing here, is that there's an increasing frustration among people.  You can FEEL it sometimes.  We were at an outside concert a couple weeks ago, watching some local bands, and my friend Jim says "there's a weird vibe here. There's going to be a fight, or someone's going to open fire".  We left.  Nothing happened, but the feeling was REAL.

As for road rage, it's almost a daily occurrence now if you drive; for every incident of road rage involving a gun, there are countless more that DON'T involve a gun.  I was coming home from Keith Urban last night (a 90 minute drive) and at 1:30 in the morning I have two assholes behind me, swerving like they're Kyle Busch in a NASCAR race.  First straightaway, I pulled over and let them go.  I waited a good 20 seconds before I pulled out again, and kept my distance until they turned off. 

Here's a fascinating excerpt from an article on road rage:
The psychology behind road rage

As it turns out, there may be a psychological reason why road rage is on the rise. According to research discussed in Psychology Today, road rage involves both the emotions of the drivers involved and the ability to regulate those emotions. While some people can deal with anger on the road more constructively, for others it leads to aggression or aggressive driving.

Other observations include:

- Road rage occurs due to multiple factors, including the environment (crowded highways), psychological factors (stress and displaced anger) as well as factors such as youth.
- Road rage is found to continue throughout the day, not simply during driving. For example, drivers with shorter fuses tend to be more impulsive and anxious in general.
- Angry drivers take more risks on the road, including speeding 10-20 miles per hour over the speed limit, rapidly switching lanes, tailgating and running red lights.

I don't see "guns" mentioned anywhere.  I DO see increased anxiety, anger and frustration, as well as a decrease in impulse control, and I also see that the factors that go into road rage are not limited to the road.  These are anxieties, angriness and frustration that are permeating our lives, and coupled with the fact that we are spending more and more time on the road, in high anxiety situations.  THIS IS the American situation, not guns, even if guns are an exacerbator for some.

[Elite]

It’s great that less people are getting killed. Without people owning guns, it would be even less. You basically sidestepped the most important part of SwedishGoose’s argument - the presence of guns - to show data that might support different claims, but that data always assumes the presence of guns. Take guns conpletely outof the picture, as SwedishGoose suggests, and you’ll have different - I bet less killings - results.

But this is taking it into P&R territory. Yes I do see people behaving like idiots on the road here too, road rage really is a thing. I’m glad I don’t have to fear getting shot for doing something small that another person would get triggered (wow, a pun!) by.

[TAC]

It’s great that less people are getting killed. Without people owning guns, it would be even less. You basically sidestepped the most important part of SwedishGoose’s argument - the presence of guns - to show data that might support different claims, but that data always assumes the presence of guns. Take guns conpletely outof the picture, as SwedishGoose suggests, and you’ll have different - I bet less killings - results.

Well, sure, but (I'm making an assumption here) but my guess is that this murderer did not have a legal weapon to begin with. This guy is a criminal and now a murderer. I still believe in responsibly and rightly owning a gun, but I'm all for going after the flow of illegal guns what contributed to this.



Also, @ Stads, I don't know if this was mentioned in the study, but driving in your car is basically the only time in your life/day where you can yell fuck you at someone. It's like all of the frustration built up during your day...you can't yell fuck you to your boss, or to your wife, or to your mother... but if someone accidentally creeps into your lane on the highway, you can unload on them with usually no consequence.

I gotta be honest, whenever my windshields gets sprayed by the car in front of me, it's usually followed by me uttering "You motherfucker.".

[SwedishGoose]

The difference between USA and other countries is that you have easy access to guns.

I have been the victim of road rage here in Sweden but I have never ever feared that I would get shot for it.

I know the mantra is it's not guns but take away the gun from the driver of the BMW and what do you get? Most probably the father who died would have survived that day...

The easy acces to guns in the USA gets a lot of people killed. Sure, a few of them might get killed by other means but those other means are not as effective at killing people and will take more determination and effort leading to fewer people getting killed.

Have your opinion, I can't stop you, but at least use ACCURATE INFORMATION.  Your correlation is not substantiated by the data. 

Based on gun manufacturing, the number of guns has been increasing since the early 90's.

BUT, on a household-by-household basis, gun ownership is going DOWN since the mid-70's.  So LESS PEOPLE have guns.  In other words, if you run across a random person on the street, they are LESS likely to have a gun now than, say, 20 or 40 years ago. There are more total guns, so fewer individuals are owning more guns each (we're up to an average of about 120 guns per person owing a gun, and even that's misleading, since 22% of people only own one gun).

BUT, and here's where your assessment goes right out the window, pre-pandemic, the HOMICIDE/MURDER rate has been steadily dropping since the 90's.   DROPPING.  LESS PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

MORE GUNS LESS KILLING.   That's not causation.   If anything, MORE GUNS are KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE. (I'm not making that argument, but if you are going to be fair and fact-based, that's a far more likely conclusion than the false equivalency of "ready access to guns".)  What we're seeing, of course, is a FOCUS on those killings that are caused by guns.  We're seeing more "event" type killings, which again, aren't about guns, they are about the notoriety of the event, driven by people that are frustrated, desperate and feeling unheard and unappreciated.

I get that there are studies that purport to say that "ready access to guns is the cause".  I'm patently saying that those studies are incorrect, and are likely an answer (a preconceived notion) looking for data.  They almost always gloss over the over-all trends, and they almost always use very targeted data.  For example, homicides when UP dramatically during the first year of the pandemic.  You can't ignore the fact that almost the entire nation went through some version of shutdown, a level of anxiety we haven't seen since at least 2001 and maybe longer, and simply jump right to trying to pin that on guns.

What's changing here, is that there's an increasing frustration among people.  You can FEEL it sometimes.  We were at an outside concert a couple weeks ago, watching some local bands, and my friend Jim says "there's a weird vibe here. There's going to be a fight, or someone's going to open fire".  We left.  Nothing happened, but the feeling was REAL.

As for road rage, it's almost a daily occurrence now if you drive; for every incident of road rage involving a gun, there are countless more that DON'T involve a gun.  I was coming home from Keith Urban last night (a 90 minute drive) and at 1:30 in the morning I have two assholes behind me, swerving like they're Kyle Busch in a NASCAR race.  First straightaway, I pulled over and let them go.  I waited a good 20 seconds before I pulled out again, and kept my distance until they turned off. 

Here's a fascinating excerpt from an article on road rage:
The psychology behind road rage

As it turns out, there may be a psychological reason why road rage is on the rise. According to research discussed in Psychology Today, road rage involves both the emotions of the drivers involved and the ability to regulate those emotions. While some people can deal with anger on the road more constructively, for others it leads to aggression or aggressive driving.

Other observations include:

- Road rage occurs due to multiple factors, including the environment (crowded highways), psychological factors (stress and displaced anger) as well as factors such as youth.
- Road rage is found to continue throughout the day, not simply during driving. For example, drivers with shorter fuses tend to be more impulsive and anxious in general.
- Angry drivers take more risks on the road, including speeding 10-20 miles per hour over the speed limit, rapidly switching lanes, tailgating and running red lights.

I don't see "guns" mentioned anywhere.  I DO see increased anxiety, anger and frustration, as well as a decrease in impulse control, and I also see that the factors that go into road rage are not limited to the road.  These are anxieties, angriness and frustration that are permeating our lives, and coupled with the fact that we are spending more and more time on the road, in high anxiety situations.  THIS IS the American situation, not guns, even if guns are an exacerbator for some.

You can cite any studies you like that shows more guns equals less killed but the major studies around the world showing that the USA is an outlier in both guns per capita and murders per capita will not go away.

There is data all around that shows contry per country that guns per capita and murders per capita follow each other quite well across a line where most other countries are low on murders and low on guns.... and then you have the USA with high number of guns per capita and high number of murders per capita.

I can't change your mind and I don't want to...

The only thing I want you to do is answer this:

What do you think would have happened if the driver of the BMW did not have a gun?

[Ben_Jamin]

The difference between USA and other countries is that you have easy access to guns.

I have been the victim of road rage here in Sweden but I have never ever feared that I would get shot for it.

I know the mantra is it's not guns but take away the gun from the driver of the BMW and what do you get? Most probably the father who died would have survived that day...

The easy acces to guns in the USA gets a lot of people killed. Sure, a few of them might get killed by other means but those other means are not as effective at killing people and will take more determination and effort leading to fewer people getting killed.

Have your opinion, I can't stop you, but at least use ACCURATE INFORMATION.  Your correlation is not substantiated by the data. 

Based on gun manufacturing, the number of guns has been increasing since the early 90's.

BUT, on a household-by-household basis, gun ownership is going DOWN since the mid-70's.  So LESS PEOPLE have guns.  In other words, if you run across a random person on the street, they are LESS likely to have a gun now than, say, 20 or 40 years ago. There are more total guns, so fewer individuals are owning more guns each (we're up to an average of about 120 guns per person owing a gun, and even that's misleading, since 22% of people only own one gun).

BUT, and here's where your assessment goes right out the window, pre-pandemic, the HOMICIDE/MURDER rate has been steadily dropping since the 90's.   DROPPING.  LESS PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

MORE GUNS LESS KILLING.   That's not causation.   If anything, MORE GUNS are KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE. (I'm not making that argument, but if you are going to be fair and fact-based, that's a far more likely conclusion than the false equivalency of "ready access to guns".)  What we're seeing, of course, is a FOCUS on those killings that are caused by guns.  We're seeing more "event" type killings, which again, aren't about guns, they are about the notoriety of the event, driven by people that are frustrated, desperate and feeling unheard and unappreciated.

I get that there are studies that purport to say that "ready access to guns is the cause".  I'm patently saying that those studies are incorrect, and are likely an answer (a preconceived notion) looking for data.  They almost always gloss over the over-all trends, and they almost always use very targeted data.  For example, homicides when UP dramatically during the first year of the pandemic.  You can't ignore the fact that almost the entire nation went through some version of shutdown, a level of anxiety we haven't seen since at least 2001 and maybe longer, and simply jump right to trying to pin that on guns.

What's changing here, is that there's an increasing frustration among people.  You can FEEL it sometimes.  We were at an outside concert a couple weeks ago, watching some local bands, and my friend Jim says "there's a weird vibe here. There's going to be a fight, or someone's going to open fire".  We left.  Nothing happened, but the feeling was REAL.

As for road rage, it's almost a daily occurrence now if you drive; for every incident of road rage involving a gun, there are countless more that DON'T involve a gun.  I was coming home from Keith Urban last night (a 90 minute drive) and at 1:30 in the morning I have two assholes behind me, swerving like they're Kyle Busch in a NASCAR race.  First straightaway, I pulled over and let them go.  I waited a good 20 seconds before I pulled out again, and kept my distance until they turned off. 

Here's a fascinating excerpt from an article on road rage:
The psychology behind road rage

As it turns out, there may be a psychological reason why road rage is on the rise. According to research discussed in Psychology Today, road rage involves both the emotions of the drivers involved and the ability to regulate those emotions. While some people can deal with anger on the road more constructively, for others it leads to aggression or aggressive driving.

Other observations include:

- Road rage occurs due to multiple factors, including the environment (crowded highways), psychological factors (stress and displaced anger) as well as factors such as youth.
- Road rage is found to continue throughout the day, not simply during driving. For example, drivers with shorter fuses tend to be more impulsive and anxious in general.
- Angry drivers take more risks on the road, including speeding 10-20 miles per hour over the speed limit, rapidly switching lanes, tailgating and running red lights.

I don't see "guns" mentioned anywhere.  I DO see increased anxiety, anger and frustration, as well as a decrease in impulse control, and I also see that the factors that go into road rage are not limited to the road.  These are anxieties, angriness and frustration that are permeating our lives, and coupled with the fact that we are spending more and more time on the road, in high anxiety situations.  THIS IS the American situation, not guns, even if guns are an exacerbator for some.

You can cite any studies you like that shows more guns equals less killed but the major studies around the world showing that the USA is an outlier in both guns per capita and murders per capita will not go away.

There is data all around that shows contry per country that guns per capita and murders per capita follow each other quite well across a line where most other countries are low on murders and low on guns.... and then you have the USA with high number of guns per capita and high number of murders per capita.

I can't change your mind and I don't want to...

The only thing I want you to do is answer this:

What do you think would have happened if the driver of the BMW did not have a gun?

Well, there's many outcomes to that situation. The driver could've ran them off the road. But, in this instance, the more likely scenario would be the driver of the BMW would've rammed them with his car when they stopped. Or, the driver would've grabbed an object in their ride and bludgeoned them to death. They could've even used their bare fists to fight the husband (This is the situation the guy would've survived).

When your frustrated in anger that bad, there's nothing that won't stop you from unleashing that fury.

[Elite]

The ease of shooting a gun vs stopping and hitting someone to death is incomparable. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that taking guns out of the equation would literally make all scenarios different? I know it’s not realistic to wish all guns away, but sinply acknowledging that guns are in fact the problem would make this a whole lot easier.

[lonestar]

But.. Would the absence of the gun, the fact that you have to be so hands on and personal with your violence, subdue your reaction. Does the presence of the gun itself make the act of murder a more dispassionate and detached one?

Ninja'd by other Rich, but I'll let my comment stand

[SwedishGoose]

The difference between USA and other countries is that you have easy access to guns.

I have been the victim of road rage here in Sweden but I have never ever feared that I would get shot for it.

I know the mantra is it's not guns but take away the gun from the driver of the BMW and what do you get? Most probably the father who died would have survived that day...

The easy acces to guns in the USA gets a lot of people killed. Sure, a few of them might get killed by other means but those other means are not as effective at killing people and will take more determination and effort leading to fewer people getting killed.

Have your opinion, I can't stop you, but at least use ACCURATE INFORMATION.  Your correlation is not substantiated by the data. 

Based on gun manufacturing, the number of guns has been increasing since the early 90's.

BUT, on a household-by-household basis, gun ownership is going DOWN since the mid-70's.  So LESS PEOPLE have guns.  In other words, if you run across a random person on the street, they are LESS likely to have a gun now than, say, 20 or 40 years ago. There are more total guns, so fewer individuals are owning more guns each (we're up to an average of about 120 guns per person owing a gun, and even that's misleading, since 22% of people only own one gun).

BUT, and here's where your assessment goes right out the window, pre-pandemic, the HOMICIDE/MURDER rate has been steadily dropping since the 90's.   DROPPING.  LESS PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

MORE GUNS LESS KILLING.   That's not causation.   If anything, MORE GUNS are KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE. (I'm not making that argument, but if you are going to be fair and fact-based, that's a far more likely conclusion than the false equivalency of "ready access to guns".)  What we're seeing, of course, is a FOCUS on those killings that are caused by guns.  We're seeing more "event" type killings, which again, aren't about guns, they are about the notoriety of the event, driven by people that are frustrated, desperate and feeling unheard and unappreciated.

I get that there are studies that purport to say that "ready access to guns is the cause".  I'm patently saying that those studies are incorrect, and are likely an answer (a preconceived notion) looking for data.  They almost always gloss over the over-all trends, and they almost always use very targeted data.  For example, homicides when UP dramatically during the first year of the pandemic.  You can't ignore the fact that almost the entire nation went through some version of shutdown, a level of anxiety we haven't seen since at least 2001 and maybe longer, and simply jump right to trying to pin that on guns.

What's changing here, is that there's an increasing frustration among people.  You can FEEL it sometimes.  We were at an outside concert a couple weeks ago, watching some local bands, and my friend Jim says "there's a weird vibe here. There's going to be a fight, or someone's going to open fire".  We left.  Nothing happened, but the feeling was REAL.

As for road rage, it's almost a daily occurrence now if you drive; for every incident of road rage involving a gun, there are countless more that DON'T involve a gun.  I was coming home from Keith Urban last night (a 90 minute drive) and at 1:30 in the morning I have two assholes behind me, swerving like they're Kyle Busch in a NASCAR race.  First straightaway, I pulled over and let them go.  I waited a good 20 seconds before I pulled out again, and kept my distance until they turned off. 

Here's a fascinating excerpt from an article on road rage:
The psychology behind road rage

As it turns out, there may be a psychological reason why road rage is on the rise. According to research discussed in Psychology Today, road rage involves both the emotions of the drivers involved and the ability to regulate those emotions. While some people can deal with anger on the road more constructively, for others it leads to aggression or aggressive driving.

Other observations include:

- Road rage occurs due to multiple factors, including the environment (crowded highways), psychological factors (stress and displaced anger) as well as factors such as youth.
- Road rage is found to continue throughout the day, not simply during driving. For example, drivers with shorter fuses tend to be more impulsive and anxious in general.
- Angry drivers take more risks on the road, including speeding 10-20 miles per hour over the speed limit, rapidly switching lanes, tailgating and running red lights.

I don't see "guns" mentioned anywhere.  I DO see increased anxiety, anger and frustration, as well as a decrease in impulse control, and I also see that the factors that go into road rage are not limited to the road.  These are anxieties, angriness and frustration that are permeating our lives, and coupled with the fact that we are spending more and more time on the road, in high anxiety situations.  THIS IS the American situation, not guns, even if guns are an exacerbator for some.

You can cite any studies you like that shows more guns equals less killed but the major studies around the world showing that the USA is an outlier in both guns per capita and murders per capita will not go away.

There is data all around that shows contry per country that guns per capita and murders per capita follow each other quite well across a line where most other countries are low on murders and low on guns.... and then you have the USA with high number of guns per capita and high number of murders per capita.

I can't change your mind and I don't want to...

The only thing I want you to do is answer this:

What do you think would have happened if the driver of the BMW did not have a gun?

Well, there's many outcomes to that situation. The driver could've ran them off the road. But, in this instance, the more likely scenario would be the driver of the BMW would've rammed them with his car when they stopped. Or, the driver would've grabbed an object in their ride and bludgeoned them to death. They could've even used their bare fists to fight the husband (This is the situation the guy would've survived).

When your frustrated in anger that bad, there's nothing that won't stop you from unleashing that fury.

Of course he could but if he used his car it would have endagered his precious car. I am not sure he would have wanted to risk that.

And using fists or something else would have forced  him to get closer and risk more for himself.

No in my view the likeley scenario would have been him threatening violence with his voice but no more.

Still you could be right he could have used his precious car but as he had a gun the effort it took for him was soo much less that we will never know.

I'm just glad that in Sweden and other countries that I have driven in I do not have to worry about  guns.

[Ben_Jamin]

@SwedishGoose: I read the story again and the BMW drivers first reaction actually wasn't pulling out a gun. His first reaction was trying to ram the couple off the road. He was unsuccessful. It was when they stopped and he got outside the car where the driver parked by their vehicle and shot him.

That's unlike the road rage shooting murders that have happened here. People shot from their vehicles while driving on the road and freeways.

We even had one incident where some teens mistook a van for being the vehicle of someone who beat up their friend, they followed them to a gas station and opened fire.

I do agree the regulations to obtain a gun need to be more stricter. That would at least help ease that access. Banning guns outright isn't possible. It's the regulations that need to be addressed. It's telling one side, "No. They're not banning guns and abolishing your 2nd amendment right." While telling the other that Yes, regulations need to be stricter so guns won't be easily accessible to those people who would utilize the weapon as a first choice when dealing with confrontational situations.

[soupytwist]

Maybe time to make another amendment to your Constitution about the right to drive tanks, to make things safer on the roads....as long as you ignore the fact there would be far more shelling deaths compared to countries that don't have tanks.

[SwedishGoose]

Maybe time to make another amendment to your Constitution about the right to drive tanks, to make things safer on the roads....as long as you ignore the fact there would be far more shelling deaths compared to countries that don't have tanks.

That should not be needed if the 2nd was implemenred as it was intended.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/02/22/what-the-second-amendment-really-meant-to-the-founders/

As long as you are part of the militia you should be able to have any weapons, right. Tanks and artillery would be useful....