Ms. Marvel Spoiler Thread - S1E6 No Normal

[bosk1]

Kamala was initially on board with helping them.  She began to hesitate a bit when Bruno told her it could be dangerous, but they didn't know that she had become hesitant

Yes, they did, because Najma read Kamala's texts to Kamran.

OK, I'll give you that (even though I must have missed it and don't recall that happening).  But still, Najma reads those and goes from 0 to 100 just because the texts indicate that Kamala might be a bit hesitant?  She's been stuck in this world a long time.  You don't get stuck somewhere and manage to stay in the shadows that entire time if your M.O. is to fly off the handle and go into "let's kill everybody" mode so easily and irrationally.

I think MCU villains in general don't seem to be that well written. They start with intriguing mystery but then just fall into the generic trap of being bad for the sake of being bad.

I disagree.  I know it is a common criticism, but I have never bought into it.  For the most part, I think the majority of the phase 1 - phase 3 villains were pretty well written (and, up to this point, the D+ phase 4 villains as well).  Many were "generic," but only in the sense that they, like the heroes, are villains based in comic books and are written to be a certain "type."  But I didn't find them generic in the sense of "bad for the sake of being bad" at all, for the most part.  They mostly all had motivations that were developed and grounded. 

[faizoff]

I mean if you compare bad guys like Zeemo, that's one of the best written villain in the MCU movies, he has excellent motivations and isn't bad for the sake of being bad. I get what you're saying but often the villains become forgettable past a point of intrigue. I mean most of the times there really isn't anything wrong with that in relation to the story but other times I wished they followed like what they did with Zeemo. I think Killmonger and Warmonger were really great too, their progression reached a crescendo and felt in line with the character.

[The Letter M]

Re: MCU Villains, I think they've gotten better with time. The Phase 1 villains were hit-or-miss given they were all largely there to develop their opposites' origins, and Loki seemed to be the best of them all.

Phase 2 is what I'd call the "Wasted Potential" villains, like Ronan The Accuser, Ultron, Yellowjacket, and the divisive "Mandarin" twist. It was a real mixed bag, and like with Loki and Phase 1, the best villain ended up being a character that would come back - The Winter Soldier.

Phase 3 focused a bit more, like the aforementioned Zemo was probably one of the best villains up to that point, and then we got the fairly intimidating Vulture (that car scene is forever a stand-out MCU moment), Hela, Killmonger, and of course Thanos. They've gotten better at crafting these sympathetic villains who make you want to see their side but are just misunderstood or led astray, and for the most part, they're not just the evil counterpart of the hero (like Iron Monger, Abomination, Yellowjacket, Kaecilius).

As we move into Phase 4, the villains are definitely more diverse and varied, and in the case of Ms. Marvel, I'd say they're fairly weak. Not a bad motivation but I'd say they're underwritten and undercooked. The best part of Najma has been how her villainous actions have affected her family across generations.

Kamala was initially on board with helping them.  She began to hesitate a bit when Bruno told her it could be dangerous, but they didn't know that she had become hesitant

Yes, they did, because Najma read Kamala's texts to Kamran.

OK, I'll give you that (even though I must have missed it and don't recall that happening).  But still, Najma reads those and goes from 0 to 100 just because the texts indicate that Kamala might be a bit hesitant?  She's been stuck in this world a long time.  You don't get stuck somewhere and manage to stay in the shadows that entire time if your M.O. is to fly off the handle and go into "let's kill everybody" mode so easily and irrationally.

Well if you haven't seen the bangle for over 80 years and it suddenly reappears in the same state/country you're in, you'd probably jump at the chance to get it at any cost. The length of their exile has probably increased their impatience and eagerness to want to go home, so they couldn't wait. Najma grew impatient in 1947 with Aisha, she wasn't going to give her great-granddaughter any more time. That's just how I see it.

-Marc.

[lonestar]

I'd say they peaked with the Netflix villains, Kingpin and Killgrave were leaps beyond any other output in my eyes.

[jammindude]

I'd say they peaked with the Netflix villains, Kingpin and Killgrave were leaps beyond any other output in my eyes.

Spot on.

I’m glad they’re bringing back the shows….but it’s the WRITERS who really need to be brought on board.

[bosk1]

Here's my brief take on most of the "main" villains, by film:
-Iron Man
   -Obadiah:  Not great.  Kind of standard "comic book" villain type.  But it was the very first MCU film, and he set up the Iron Man origin just fine.
   -10 Rings cell leader (don't know his name):  More of a generic "type" of villain, but still worked well.
-Hulk:  Blonsky was meh.  One of the lower tier villains for sure.
-Iron Man 2:  Whiplash was fine.  He had an understandable motivation and played the role well.  The problems with this film are not the villain.
-Thor:  Loki was good in this, but not as good as he would become.
-Captain America: the First Avenger:  Red Skull was pretty good.  The source material had problems in the modern age, but I thought they executed him well enough.
-Avengers:  Loki was really good.  Not going to mention Thanos since he wasn't really in it.
-Iron Man 3:  Trevor's Mandarin was FANTASTIC.  The "real" Mandarin was decent.  His motivation and who he became were actually pretty good.  It's just that he became kinda cartoonish by the end.
-The Dark World:  As I understand it, Malekith's motivation was the survival of his people, combined with an eon's old grudge against Asgard.  I get it.  The bones are there for a good villain.  Just not executed particularly well.
-Civil War:  Bucky and Hydra as a whole were great.
-Guardians:  Ronan was great.  Kind of one-dimensional as a zealot, but it worked.  Nebula was good as the henchwoman. 
-Age of Ultron:  LOVED Ultron. 
-Ant Man:  Put this in the small pile that didn't quite measure up.  But then again, Cross did fit the tone and scope of the film, so there's that.
-Civil War:  Zeemo was pretty solid. 
-Doctor Strange:  Dormammu was pretty generic, but I thought was fine in context of this film.  Kaecilius wasn't bad either as the zealot deceived.  He was underdeveloped for sure.  But given that the focus was on Strange, and there was a lot of ground to cover there, I get it.
-Guardians 2:  Yeah, Ego didn't work for me.
-Spiderman: Homecoming:  Vulture is one of the best, which surprised me.
-Ragnarok:  Hela was surprisingly disappointing for me.  I get that conquering is just part of her nature, but...I dunno.  She just fell flat.  And how ridiculously overpowered she was made her seem too cartoony.  This was a great film despite Hela, not because of her.
-Black Panther:  Killmonger was okay.  I thought Klaw as the "b" villain was great though.
-Infinity War:  Do I even need to say?
-Ant Man and Wasp:  Probably better villains than the first Ant Man, and they worked in context, but ultimately aren't that great.  They just kinda moved the story along.
-Captain Marvel:  Eh...
-Endgame:  Both versions of Thanos were great.
-Far from Home:  Mysterio was pretty good, overall.
-Black Widow:  Drakov was pretty good.  I agree with most that Taskmaster was a disappointment and huge missed opportunity.  (As a side note, it's interesting that Marvel seems so in love with Taskmaster as a property and then made such a mess of her in the film.  The Marvel edition of Villainous, for example, has Taskmaster as one of its 5 villains in the game.  And the Disney parks feature Taskmaster in their Avengers showdown show in Avengers Campus.)
-Shang Chi:  The Mandarin was a hot mess.  This entire film was a big missed opportunity that set up a huge payoff in terms of the dynamics of family, and instead focused on a big CGI battle with dragons. 
-Eternals:  Who was the villain again?  Meh.  Don't care.
-No Way Home:  No comment.  They were good.  But this film is somewhat unique in the MCU in many respects, and the villain lore and development is another such area where it stands alone.
-Multiverse of Madness:  Another where it is hard to comment.  Wanda as a villain was good, both because of the tone of the film, and because of the huge arc she has developed in other MCU properties.  But the film was such a stupid mess that I feel the best parts of her get lost.  Parts of her were written well, while other key aspects were just put out there and taken for granted that the audience would overlook/accept without giving any thought.

EDIT:  Love and Thunder:  Gorr was done pretty well overall, although I feel there was still missed potential that was likely left on the cutting room floor.  Perhaps best villain of the phase 4 films.

[lordxizor]

I wish I were enjoying this show more. It's fine, but I struggle to get myself to pay full attention to it. Just isn't drawing me in.

[Adami]

I'm really really digging this show. I'm glad it's more about family/culture than punching bad guys.

On the note of bad guys, I'm glad they made the main one kind of turn and sacrifice herself (assuming that's what she did after all). My issue is with the others. With her, she sold the desperation of wanting to get back home at any cost. She also sold how difficult it was for her to do what she did. But the others? They just came off as football hooligans that get hard at the idea of hurting people. Glad they didn't have much to do, but they were awful.

As far as the inhumans thing goes.....I see what people are saying. But Terragensis doesn't turn people to skeletons, especially inhumans. I know Agents of Shield had its weird thing, but as far as I know in the comics, it either turns you into a powered inhuman or it just ignores you. So there was some similarities in the look, but that's it. But who knows?

[jammindude]

I agree with most people here. The approach has changed DRASTICALLY from the first show to the 5th. But I really like the journey and character development. More story, less action works for me. It started off as teenage-y, almost Hanna Montana-esque…and by episode 5 I’d learned more about the history of India and its culture than I ever knew.

Reminds me of when Iron Maiden convinced me to read a book. 

[lonestar]

I agree with most people here. The approach has changed DRASTICALLY from the first show to the 5th. But I really like the journey and character development. More story, less action works for me. It started off as teenage-y, almost Hanna Montana-esque…and by episode 5 I’d learned more about the history of India and its culture than I ever knew.

Reminds me of when Iron Maiden convinced me to read a book. 

Right? It's like getting into Sabaton, you come for the cheesy power metal, next thing you know you're reading about female Russian flying aces from WWII 

[The Letter M]

What a finale! Probably one of my favorite MCU Disney+ Finales so far. It had the right balance of tones, action and drama, a bit of comedy tossed in to balance the seriousness and stakes.

SPOILERS:
I *looooove* that Kamala gets her hero identity from her parents, with her mom making the suit and her dad giving her the name. It helps drive home the family-theme of the show and really makes her a more personal hero in the MCU, where the heroes are largely loners, and even if they HAVE families, they're not necessarily sharing in that joy of the hero. The closest we've seen to that might be Hawkeye, and very slightly Shang-Chi. I also liked that they left Kamran alive so we may see him again, hopefully in a second season. Also, that X-Men Animated Theme song motif when Bruno said "Mutation" sent shivers down my spine! What a revelation! I don't mind the change, and it's neat that Kamala just shrugged it off saying it would just be "another label", but now we've got the set-up for humans (DODC) hunting down mutants (enhanced individuals), setting up some familiar X-Men stories for the future of the MCU

Over-all, a great show. I know it's not for everyone, but if you can open your mind and heart to view a hero through a different cultural and generational lens, there's a heart-warming and wholesome coming-of-age story about a budding hero trying to find her place in the world, and figure out who she is. It's a shame we've got to wait over a year for The Marvels!

-Marc.

[faizoff]

Indeed that was a fantastic finale. Probably my favorite tied with Hawkeye in the MCU shows so far. I think apart from a few kinks the whole show was extremely enjoyable. I think the best part was that the chemistry between the cast felt very natural esp with the whole family dynamic.

I wonder what that post credit scene means.

[lonestar]

Outstanding finale. Just outstanding.


As said above, just a great blend of everything, wrapped up really nicely. Some seriously solid action blended with genuine, heartfelt emotional payoff that's been building since the first episode.

I'll wait a bit to discuss the big bomb dropped at the end.

[Lonk]

Yeah, agree that it was a great finale. Thoroughly enjoyed the show and I'm kicking myself for not realizing the that revelation at the end, all the signs were there.

[lordxizor]

I thought that was a nice finale. I'm typically thrilled with anything that isn't a big CGI battle royale and it delivered that. I wish I enjoyed this as much as most of you seemed to. It was good, but it never really fully clicked with me, which has been the case with much of Phase 4 I guess. I did enjoy the family dynamic and the close bonds with their community. I thought that was long overdue. I suppose there just isn't time for that kind of stuff in a 2 hour movie, but that's part of the humanity that been lacking from most of the other MCU characters.

[Adami]

Really enjoyed the finale, also glad it wasn't just good guy beat up bad guy, but even had redemption arcs. Won't repeat much more, but that girl is a god damn treasure and I'm glad Marvel found her.

Not sure I needed the mutant twist, AND the negaband twist. One or the other would've been cool. Actually, just the mutant twist. Didn't need the negaband twist at all.

[MinistroRaven]

This show was complete MEH for me, I only watched it to be in the loop of what’s going on in Marvel camp. Finale was horrible.
Weapons are being shot and cars are flying around and people stay as spectators. Last time I watched a real mass shoot in the news people were desperately running to save their lives. I know is the same thing in all movies, or most of them, but come on.
Another thing I had issues with, DDOC is outside and coming in, and these 6 kids had the chance to make barricades, install electric artifacts, collect softballs, and all the things they did aside for planning and the DDOC didn’t come in earlier? They broke in the mosque and seek for the boys in there, while there was a lot of people in it, and couldn’t do the same in a Saturday night in the school? That’s poor writing to me.

[ZirconBlue]

Another thing I had issues with, DDOC is outside and coming in, and these 6 kids had the chance to make barricades, install electric artifacts, collect softballs, and all the things they did aside for planning and the DDOC didn’t come in earlier?

Obviously, a significant amount of time passed as Damage Control summoned "all available units", and a large crowd had time to travel and assemble after viewing a TikTok video.

[lordxizor]

This show was complete MEH for me, I only watched it to be in the loop of what’s going on in Marvel camp. Finale was horrible.
Weapons are being shot and cars are flying around and people stay as spectators. Last time I watched a real mass shoot in the news people were desperately running to save their lives. I know is the same thing in all movies, or most of them, but come on.
Another thing I had issues with, DDOC is outside and coming in, and these 6 kids had the chance to make barricades, install electric artifacts, collect softballs, and all the things they did aside for planning and the DDOC didn’t come in earlier? They broke in the mosque and seek for the boys in there, while there was a lot of people in it, and couldn’t do the same in a Saturday night in the school? That’s poor writing to me.

Yeah there were definitely issues with the writing. But I didn't think it distracted too much. My biggest issue was the high school kid doing a genetic analyses and determining she's a mutant. What high school kid has the knowledge and equipment to do that kind of thing in his spare time?

[MinistroRaven]

Another thing I had issues with, DDOC is outside and coming in, and these 6 kids had the chance to make barricades, install electric artifacts, collect softballs, and all the things they did aside for planning and the DDOC didn’t come in earlier?

Obviously, a significant amount of time passed as Damage Control summoned "all available units", and a large crowd had time to travel and assemble after viewing a TikTok video.

Looks like a more than enough team to get 2 kids.
The team that got the mother of Kamran and the others was smallest compared to this one.

PLUS, they were ALREADY outside the school and yet these 6 characters did all they did to scape. And armed force against kids in bycicles inside a school? really?

And the woman of damage control, my gosh! She gave an order to kill two teenagers in front of a huge crowd and she was just OK, with that, I don't understand it seriously.

[lordxizor]

I also thought one of the most unrealistic things were a bunch of older adults coming running because of a TikTok video. Who over the age of 40 is on TikTok?

[King Postwhore]

I also thought one of the most unrealistic things were a bunch of older adults coming running because of a TikTok video. Who over the age of 40 is on TikTok?

Parents who keep track of what their kids post on TikTok.

[bosk1]

^winner

Also, given that the narrative is from the point of view of a teenager, there are one of two approaches that are guaranteed.  Either present it from the point of view of: (1) "this is what teens do, so obviously this must be what everybody does"; or (2) "this is what teens do, and old people NEVER do that and only use 'old people social media' like Facebook, so let's show all the old people just doing that."  Either one makes sense from a narrative point of view, even though neither is completely realistic.  They went with #1.  It may not be completely realistic.  But neither is building graffiti magically transforming into social media posts, or super powers, or mutants, or aliens, or a myriad of other things in this show.  But it all fits the narrative style and works within that context.  To take a style that is tangentially related, in Bollywood films and shows, people frequently break out into choreographed song-and-dance numbers at random.  That isn't realistic either.  But it is stylistically appropriate.  A lot of things in this show that I might find objectionable in other settings felt very stylistically appropriate here.  They aren't necessarily going to resonate (or make sense) with some people, but that's okay.  That doesn't necessarily equate to bad writing as much as being deliberate and fitting the style of the show.

[lordxizor]

^winner

Also, given that the narrative is from the point of view of a teenager, there are one of two approaches that are guaranteed.  Either present it from the point of view of: (1) "this is what teens do, so obviously this must be what everybody does"; or (2) "this is what teens do, and old people NEVER do that and only use 'old people social media' like Facebook, so let's show all the old people just doing that."  Either one makes sense from a narrative point of view, even though neither is completely realistic.  They went with #1.  It may not be completely realistic.  But neither is building graffiti magically transforming into social media posts, or super powers, or mutants, or aliens, or a myriad of other things in this show.  But it all fits the narrative style and works within that context.  To take a style that is tangentially related, in Bollywood films and shows, people frequently break out into choreographed song-and-dance numbers at random.  That isn't realistic either.  But it is stylistically appropriate. 

It didn't really bother me, just a funny observation I noticed. Some girl from my kid's school is posting live on a social media primarily used by people under 20? Drop everything and watch!

[MinistroRaven]

I also thought one of the most unrealistic things were a bunch of older adults coming running because of a TikTok video. Who over the age of 40 is on TikTok?

Also, if Kamala ran over the light plates she creates after Kamram went through the whole in the ground, why they didn't do that instead of going to the school, why trap themselves inside the school? Why not going to the harbor right after the red dagger kid told Kamala to go there so save Kamram? I know he said to go there by midnight, but when Kamala appears with his suit and Bruno and Kamran ask her what is she wearing it appears to be like 5 pm, next scene it is like 8pm so apparently they were able to hide for at least 3 hours, or the school is really far away, LOL, in any case they were able to get there without much trouble in an apparently long period of time.

Ugh, I could go on, but I am tired and my English is not that grandiloquent to explain or to get out of my chest how much I hated the show.

[lonestar]

As I said with some Black Widow criticism a while back, if you dissect any MCU product for realism, you're bound to have a bad time.

[ZirconBlue]

As I said with some Black Widow criticism a while back, if you dissect any MCU product for realism, you're bound to have a bad time.

This is true for almost every movie.  Different genres may sometimes have different conventions, but, all of them are "unrealistic" in some way.  There's a lot of narrative shorthand just to keep things moving.  TikTok videos can be shared on other social media, and Kamala's father says someone sent him the video to watch.  Maybe Zoe's followers shared them with their parents, and then they spread through the adult community?  Is it really worth taking five minutes to show that?


Also, I'd say if you don't actually like a show, continuing to watch the whole season out of some feeling of obligation is bound to make you look for every little thing to criticize. 

[ProfessorPeart]

My biggest issue was the high school kid doing a genetic analyses and determining she's a mutant. What high school kid has the knowledge and equipment to do that kind of thing in his spare time?

It may not be completely realistic.  But neither is building graffiti magically transforming into social media posts, or super powers, or mutants, or aliens, or a myriad of other things in this show.  But it all fits the narrative style and works within that context.

I wanted to answer the top quote but was unsure how to go about without sounding like a prick. bosk nailed the answer much better than I would have.

When it comes to shows in this realm, I don't even attempt to micro-inspect everything for realism. It is already completely unreal. I just enjoy it for what it is.

[Adami]

I just ask it to be internally consistent. They set up Bruno to be able to do what he does, so I buy that he can do it.

As for the other stuff, yea, definitely some weak moments, but I've found (in general) that those kinds of things are easy to ignore if you're engaged in the story and characters. I was. It seems you (Ministro and others) were not. All good.

[lordxizor]

I just ask it to be internally consistent.

Yeah, that's really it for me. The MCU is full of unrealistically smart people, so what's one more I guess. I'm usually able to internally scoff at something I think is dumb and then immediately move on. But threads like this tend to make me remember the momentarily unbelievable moments that I had forgotten about.

[jingle.boy]

When it comes to shows in this realm, I don't even attempt to micro-inspect everything for realism. It is already completely unreal. I just enjoy it for what it is.

My struggles come when show-runners do things to intentionally keep the viewer in our actual reality (eg, TikTok and other *real-world* realities), all while expecting us to park our brain on basic logic and reason (eg, a lot of what Jorge pointed out).  I get that we have to park our brain for 'powers', and tech, and aliens, and all that comes along with that.  But then to park my brain for stuff like what is pointed out above.  I give a hearty  .

That said, it didn't bug me nearly as much as it did Señor Raven.  I enjoyed it plenty.

[bosk1]

Also, if Kamala ran over the light plates she creates after Kamram went through the whole in the ground, why they didn't do that instead of going to the school, why trap themselves inside the school? Why not going to the harbor right after the red dagger kid told Kamala to go there so save Kamram?

1.  Too early to go to the harbor.  The harbor is likely a VERY rough neighborhood, not very safe for kids, especially after dark.  Although Kamala was powered and could probably defend herself against common thugs, any altercation would likely draw attention.  Best to get there when their contact would actually be there, not hours earlier just waiting around for something bad to happen.
2.  It was already established that the school would be abandoned on a Saturday night, and it was incredibly unlikely that the DODC would expect them to go there (I wasn't clear on how the DODC actually found them, but I'll have to go back and figure that out).
3.  School was closer.  Kamala is not a long distance runner, as far as we know.  Jumping from light disk to light disk would be exhausting for any sustained distance. 

[bosk1]

Now that this one is done, if I had to put the shows into tiers on a 1-5 basis (5=outstanding, 4=very good, 3=good, 2=fair, 1=bad), I would put all the live action shows in the high 4 or 5 range with this one last (but still a high 4).  What If...? is the only one that would be a low 2. 

Ranked:
1.  WandaVision:  Just brilliant on so many levels.  It took awhile for me to feel like this had much re-watch potential, but it absolutely does.  Incredibly novel and emotional, really moved the ball down the MCU field, and the humor worked.
2.  Moon Knight:  Leave it to Marvel to take a character I know nothing about and probably wouldn't care much about, and do something that is just brilliant.  It had some misfires along the way, but really goes on a satisfying journey with a great ending.  Lots of emotional gut punches and payoffs that really make it a lot deeper than a lot of comic fare.
3.  Hawkeye:  Fairly frivolous, but really fun.  I loved this series even though it lacked the depth of my #1 and #2 entries.
4.  Loki:  I kind of felt like this one meandered all over the place and lost its way before the big reveal at the end.  Sometimes it was great.  Other times, it seemed like it was trying to figure out how to get where it wanted to go.  But still solid overall.
5.  The Falcon and the Winter Soldier:  This series most directly addressed where these established characters have been, the consequences of that, and where we go from here, and I think it did a good job.  This was the most "standard" super hero type of story, but it worked well. 
6.  Ms. Marvel:  Liked it a lot.  In some ways, somewhat similar in overall tone to Hawkeye, and I liked that.  But it had an endearing originality as well as a smarts to not get too big for itself that I think really worked.
-Everything above is really solid.  I liked it all quite a bit.  But then there's...
7.  What If...?:  I see what they were going for, and I actually think it's kinda neat that they tried to tie it together as something meaningful rather than just being a bunch of random hypothetical situations.  But therein lies the problem as well.  The multiverse concept is so ridiculous and pointless that I find it hard to get invested.  That and just poor overall execution leaves this a WAY distant last place at the absolute bottom of the barrel.

[King Postwhore]

1.  Wandavision
2.  Hawkeye
3.  The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
4.  Moon Knight
5.  Ms. Marvel
6.  Loki
7.  What If?

[lonestar]

Hmmm...

1- Wandavision
2- Ms Marvel
3- Hawkeye
3- Loki
3- Moon Knight
3- Falcon and Winter Soldier
7- What If?

I really can't scale those middle 4, they all have their own positive qualities, and none really had any glaring issues for me. Ms Marvel was a bit above them solely because of Iman as the lead, and Wandavision is for me on top of the MCU with Infinity War.