Marvel Studios' Thor: Love And Thunder, OUT NOW! SPOILERS now inside!

[DoctorAction]

Liked it. Made me laugh. Liked Natalie Portman in it v much.

Feeling some Marvel burnout now, generally.

[jammindude]

Not sure how I feel about this one yet. I’m definitely getting the mixed feelings that a lot of other people seem to be feeling. Parts of it I loved, and parts I thought felt unfinished.

In fact, I think that’s probably the only thing that’s wrong with the movie. It felt like it wanted to be a little bit longer and slightly more epic.

[lonestar]

Totally agree.

[Adami]

I know I've argued against him before, but I'm getting more in Bosk's camp. I loved No Way Home, but outside of that, I've enjoyed the phase 4 films, but they have largely just become light entertainment, which Marvel didn't used to be.

I think part of it is just how saturated we have been with MCU in recent years. You just get one after the other after the other. Didn't like one thing? No worries, the next thing should be here shortly.

So it's a mixture of three basic problems.

1) Having no clue where any of this is going right now. Maybe we'll look back and it'll all make sense, but it just seems they're introducing SO many new characters and then just moving on.
2) The writing is really suffering. Plots are making less sense, character arcs are being completely ignored, and sometimes even reversed. The Thor of this film is more like a dumb version of him from the first movie. All of those lessons and all of that growth he had seems to have disappeared in this last film. And the film itself had virtually no character arc for him. It was just Thor has to stop a bad guy whose entire premise was relegated to a few lines of dialogue and then he became Gorr the Child Kidnapper. It was just silly plot with no character depth what so ever.
3) They're no longer events. It's feeling more like a production line. While they're in the beginning phases of one movie, the higher ups seems they've already moved on to the next 20 releases happening and each one gets ignored as the next 20 things need to start.

[King Postwhore]

I think it's coming off a euphoric rush of Infinty War & Endgame. It was such a high that these feel flat because we were emotionally spent after those 2 movies.

[bosk1]

Yes, Infinity War and Endgame are an incredibly high bar to clear.  But it isn't that these new ones are suffering by comparison to that.  It's that, as Adami and I have both said, the new ones just aren't very good.

[King Postwhore]

I won't say not very good. Just not at that level.  Let's be honest though, neither were the early movies in Phase 1 either. It wasn't until the 1st Avengers movie that the hype hit.

This phase is like coming off an amazing vacation back yo work.  Lol

[bosk1]

Let's be honest though, neither were the early movies in Phase 1 either.

Two things:

1.  For the most part, yes they were.
2.  Assuming you are right, to the extent they weren't, we are 20+ movies down the road from phase 1.  There is no reason for the vast majority of films to have "regressed" so far in terms of quality.

[King Postwhore]

They weren't mind blowing.   The Incredible Hulk?  Iron Man 2?  Thor?  Most look at them as not as good as what came out later. 

[DoctorAction]

And the film itself had virtually no character arc for him. It was just Thor has to stop a bad guy whose entire premise was relegated to a few lines of dialogue and then he became Gorr the Child Kidnapper. It was just silly plot with no character depth what so ever.

I agree with much of what you said there, Adami, but not this.

There was an arc for Thor. In this one you learn that he got himself back in physical shape after previously giving up on himself, put the work in to find mental peace but still found himself lost and his existence fairly meaninglessness alone. He ran into Jane again, who challenged his identity further by reviving Mjolnir and he then relearned that love gives meaning to existence, even if temporary,. He then lost Jane to mortality and agreed to look after his enemy's blameless offspring.

Disenchantment to understanding.

And Gorr's loss of faith due to the crushing nature of mortality was very relatable, I thought.

As I say, I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said, but I loved the mortality angle in this one.

[Adami]

The first part of what you said about Thor happened in the first 5 minutes. That’s not an arc. The rest isn’t character development, it’s just stuff happening. He found a kid but as a character, he wasn’t terribly different.

And I agree that Gorr had relatable motivation. I just wish they focused on that. But he lost his kid, killed a god, then kidnapped kids. On screen, he did no other god killing and when you go from losing your kid to kidnapping and scaring a bunch of kids, it undermines your relatablity a bit. He had a ton of potential and Bale killed it as an actor, but the writing was just so damn lazy.

[Zantera]

They weren't mind blowing.   The Incredible Hulk?  Iron Man 2?  Thor?  Most look at them as not as good as what came out later.

I think part of my problem with Phase 4 is that it feels so aimless and the obligatory sequels is kinda what's throwing things off. I do agree in terms of individual quality, Phase 1 wasn't amazing and aside from the first Iron Man, many of the other ones kinda fall in that 'yeah it was fine' category. But they were still introducing these characters so even if the movies weren't top level, we were still getting some build up to the eventual greatness. Shang Chi was pretty fun and I enjoyed getting some new characters in Eternals but for me the Black Widow/Dr Strange 2/Thor 4 are the movies that sort of throw off the balance a bit. I think I would have enjoyed Ph4 more so far if you had another original in there and maybe used Shang Chi or some of the Eternals in another movie as well - integrating them more into the universe.

We're now heading towards a Black Panther without the Black Panther movie, then Ant Man 3 and then Guardians 3 and it feels like Shang Chi and Eternals will be forgotten by the time they come around again.

[DoctorAction]

The first part of what you said about Thor happened in the first 5 minutes. That’s not an arc. The rest isn’t character development, it’s just stuff happening. He found a kid but as a character, he wasn’t terribly different.

We're not talking about The Godfather here. And relative to other characters in the MCU? It's not like Cap changed at all over the course of all of the movies. Tony Stark? A fair bit, actually.

But the death of the love of your life and taking on the child of your enemy feels like development enough to me.

[The Letter M]

They weren't mind blowing.   The Incredible Hulk?  Iron Man 2?  Thor?  Most look at them as not as good as what came out later.

I think part of my problem with Phase 4 is that it feels so aimless and the obligatory sequels is kinda what's throwing things off. I do agree in terms of individual quality, Phase 1 wasn't amazing and aside from the first Iron Man, many of the other ones kinda fall in that 'yeah it was fine' category. But they were still introducing these characters so even if the movies weren't top level, we were still getting some build up to the eventual greatness. Shang Chi was pretty fun and I enjoyed getting some new characters in Eternals but for me the Black Widow/Dr Strange 2/Thor 4 are the movies that sort of throw off the balance a bit. I think I would have enjoyed Ph4 more so far if you had another original in there and maybe used Shang Chi or some of the Eternals in another movie as well - integrating them more into the universe.

We're now heading towards a Black Panther without the Black Panther movie, then Ant Man 3 and then Guardians 3 and it feels like Shang Chi and Eternals will be forgotten by the time they come around again.

I think a lot of the lack of new characters in the films comes down to them putting them in the Disney+ TV shows, which, so far, have done a good job of introducing new and important characters in the MCU. WandaVision gave us (an adult version of) Monica Rambeau; TFATWS gave us John Walker/USAgent and possibly Eli Bradley/Patriot from the Young Avengers; Loki brought in Sylvie and Mobius; Hawkeye saw Kate Bishop come into her own, another important Young Avenger; Moon Knight was pretty much entirely new characters in the MCU; and the same could be said for Ms. Marvel and her whole community. With She-Hulk coming up, we're probably getting the most reference-heavy MCU Disney+ show with her (with appearances by Hulk, Abomination, Wong, and who knows who else), but still introducing a new character with more than 2.5 hours of screen time.

This is why Shang-Chi is my 2nd favorite Phase 4 film so far because it gives us a whole new hero and world to get into, something a bit fresh compared to all of the sequels are have been and will be getting. Eternals was fine, but I felt like it should've been a 6-episode show rather than a film, especially with all of the characters in it. As you said, BW, Strange, and Thor have all felt a bit lacking in some places, and I feel like for the latter two, they're sequels for the sake of setting the up for another crossover event (incursions and dealing with cosmic deities). Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is going to have to pull off some miracles if it wants to stand above this year's other two sequel films, especially without T'Challa (as they've said they won't recast him, despite many fans thinking they should have recast him).

Then next year sees three more sequels and one mystery film in November (which will hopefully be announced this weekend at SDCC). It's definitely a sequel-heavy Phase on film, but the TV shows are where it's at for new characters and stories, and even things like Secret Invasion and Armor Wars, which will featuring returning characters, will give us more time with them and hopefully more time to bring in fresh blood in the MCU.

-Marc.

[ErHaO]

Thor 2 and Iron Man 2 weren't good films, but they added to the characters and I was invested in their arcs, which paid off in the subsequent films. I am not feeling this in the phase 4 films (emphasis on films) for the most part (Spidey is a notable exception). I feel like Thor had a lot of potential, but it seems like they trimmed away too much character moments for it to really hit home. And Dr Strange 2 tried to do too much making it feel messy.

[lordxizor]

Finally got to see this last night. I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone else. Generally a fun and enjoyable movie. Many of the jokes didn't land, but most did. It could have stood to be longer. Etc.

Thor 5 has to be Thor ending up with Jane in Valhalla, right? And the retirement of the character? As enjoyable as Thor has gotten, I don't think he's the one original Avenger worthy of 5 films, much less more.

I agree with the feeling that MCU movies are now just fun popcorn flicks rather than event movies. But you know... for me, they didn't become events and must see in the theater movies until phase 3. So maybe by phase 5 or 6 we'll have built back up to that point. There is definitely a level of MCU fatigue with all the D+ shows and films, but I'll keep watching.

[Stadler]

Honest question: do you think they can be both?   I sort of saw the movies as being different things, but then again, I didn't see ANY of them in the theater.   "Endgame" struck me as an "EVENT MOVIE", but I can't say Ant-man did.  Or even Guardians of the Galaxy.   

[lordxizor]

Honest question: do you think they can be both?   I sort of saw the movies as being different things, but then again, I didn't see ANY of them in the theater.   "Endgame" struck me as an "EVENT MOVIE", but I can't say Ant-man did.  Or even Guardians of the Galaxy.   

The Avengers movies all felt like events to me, but I agree some of the lesser character movies didn't.

[Orbert]

We saw it today.  I thought it was pretty good, very entertaining.  Sometimes the tone was a bit weird for me -- too melodramatic, too silly, etc. -- but then the film itself would remind me that we're watching events played out as stories told by one of the characters (Korg, Thor himself) and by contrast the scenes set "in reality" were more grounded.

Overall I agree with most of the criticisms but almost most of the defense.  They did try to do too much and/or cut out too much, resulting in gaps.  But overall it was a great switch-off-your-brain-and-just-enjoy-it summer blockbuster, which we needed.

[Zook]

This movie would have been better if they ditched the comedy aspect altogether. I think I laughed a couple times at the goats when they crashed into stuff, but overall I was bored. It really did feel like a parody (the bad kinds like the "we only watched the trailers of the movies we're trying to spoof" Movies) and certain scenes were acted just like the reenactment scenes. Gorr was the best of the movie, as were the actual serious fight scenes. 4/10

I'm fine with funny Thor. Ragnarok was great, and rewatchable. I'll never watch this one again. Maybe the Russo's should direct Thor movies from now on.

[DoctorAction]

Started re-watching this on D+ tonight. Generally not digging it as much as I did at the cinema. Still digging the main themes and characters.

One point though:

Fucking G'n'R. Ugh... Doesn't fit as the soundtrack, imo, and is overused, and too product-placed. Irritating poser band. They can kiss my left nut. 🤬😬💥

[bosk1]

I had a lot of problems with this film, AND I have a lot of problems with GnR, but I thought the use of GnR songs in this film worked pretty well, actually.  I was definitely one of the things I put in the plus column.

[lonestar]

I had a lot of problems with this film, AND I have a lot of problems with GnR, but I thought the use of GnR songs in this film worked pretty well, actually.  I was definitely one of the things I put in the plus column.

Mostly agreed, except for Heimdal's kid renaming himself Axl...that was cringe overload.

[Adami]

I dunno. It didn't bug me, but it felt a bit like diminishing returns from the last film. Immigrant Song is well known to rock fans but to the majority of people, it's more obscure and tends to stand out a bit more. A bunch of GnR songs, specifically Sweet Child, is just so well known and popular that it felt a bit less interesting.

Again, I was fine, but I definitely didn't feel excited when I heard them. And I really love those first three GnR albums.

Also disliking this film the more I think about it. At some point I'll rewatch it and maybe my opinion will change, but I just remember thinking the writing was very poor and the movie played more as a satire of the MCU and comic book movies rather than a legit entry into the MCU.

[bosk1]

Also disliking this film the more I think about it. At some point I'll rewatch it and maybe my opinion will change, but I just remember thinking the writing was very poor and the movie played more as a satire of the MCU and comic book movies rather than a legit entry into the MCU.

Yeah, felt like the bones of a really good film were there, and they just whiffed on a lot of opportunities in favor of going for things (mostly humor) that missed the mark. 

[lonestar]

Also disliking this film the more I think about it. At some point I'll rewatch it and maybe my opinion will change, but I just remember thinking the writing was very poor and the movie played more as a satire of the MCU and comic book movies rather than a legit entry into the MCU.

Yeah, felt like the bones of a really good film were there, and they just whiffed on a lot of opportunities in favor of going for things (mostly humor) that missed the mark.

Totally agree

[DoctorAction]

Also disliking this film the more I think about it. At some point I'll rewatch it and maybe my opinion will change, but I just remember thinking the writing was very poor and the movie played more as a satire of the MCU and comic book movies rather than a legit entry into the MCU.

Yeah, felt like the bones of a really good film were there, and they just whiffed on a lot of opportunities in favor of going for things (mostly humor) that missed the mark.

Totally agree

It's definitely a weird one. The god killer character stuff is really dark and well played. Jane's arc too. Maybe they thought it was too much without going very light to generate some balance.

I enjoyed it at the cinema but the second viewing is generating a lot of bemusement.

[hefdaddy42]

I agree with the general consensus.  There's a framework for greatness there, but it missed the mark.

[Skeever]

I haven't kept up with much MCU since Endgame as I felt like things were "complete", or at least as complete as I wanted them to be.

Now it's tough to find footing - I thought about watching this over the weekend, but I realized that I don't even know where things stand anymore. Do I need to watch Shang Chi, and the Eternals, first? What about Doctor Strange 2? She Hulk? Falcon? Oh and let's not forget about Loki, which I assume to be in the "Yes" column.

Other than Endgame, I haven't watched much aside from a bit of Falcon, and then also Wandavision. Both were good, but not great. But it just seems like there is too much going on. 4-5 films leading into Avengers seemed reasonable. Now we're already there (and then some) with Phase 4, plus there are 3-4 10ish hour TV shows that would take even longer to catch-up on. And no sign of what it's building toward. Just feels like we're in the middle of a weird transition, leading to nowhere in particular.

[Dream Team]

Doctor Strange 2 has a lot going for it, even if it's not generally considered a top-tier MCU film. Lizzie's performance is the best thing about it but there are a ton of cool visuals and a good arc for Strange.

[Adami]

I haven't kept up with much MCU since Endgame as I felt like things were "complete", or at least as complete as I wanted them to be.

Now it's tough to find footing - I thought about watching this over the weekend, but I realized that I don't even know where things stand anymore. Do I need to watch Shang Chi, and the Eternals, first? What about Doctor Strange 2? She Hulk? Falcon? Oh and let's not forget about Loki, which I assume to be in the "Yes" column.

Other than Endgame, I haven't watched much aside from a bit of Falcon, and then also Wandavision. Both were good, but not great. But it just seems like there is too much going on. 4-5 films leading into Avengers seemed reasonable. Now we're already there (and then some) with Phase 4, plus there are 3-4 10ish hour TV shows that would take even longer to catch-up on. And no sign of what it's building toward. Just feels like we're in the middle of a weird transition, leading to nowhere in particular.

No. You honestly can have skipped everything after endgame and it won’t impact this movie.

[The Letter M]

I haven't kept up with much MCU since Endgame as I felt like things were "complete", or at least as complete as I wanted them to be.

Now it's tough to find footing - I thought about watching this over the weekend, but I realized that I don't even know where things stand anymore. Do I need to watch Shang Chi, and the Eternals, first? What about Doctor Strange 2? She Hulk? Falcon? Oh and let's not forget about Loki, which I assume to be in the "Yes" column.

Other than Endgame, I haven't watched much aside from a bit of Falcon, and then also Wandavision. Both were good, but not great. But it just seems like there is too much going on. 4-5 films leading into Avengers seemed reasonable. Now we're already there (and then some) with Phase 4, plus there are 3-4 10ish hour TV shows that would take even longer to catch-up on. And no sign of what it's building toward. Just feels like we're in the middle of a weird transition, leading to nowhere in particular.

No. You honestly can have skipped everything after endgame and it won’t impact this movie.

If you haven't kept up since Endgame, here's what I think should be watched if you want to catch up on something in particular:
-If you want to watch Spider-Man: No Way Home, you need to watch Far From Home (obviously).
-If you want to watch Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness, definitely watch WandaVision on Disney+.
-If you want to watch Thor: Love & Thunder, you're good. It pretty much picks up with Thor from Endgame.
-If you plan to watch Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, you're good as well.
-If you plan on seeing Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantumania next February, definitely watch Loki on Disney+.
-If you plan to watch The Marvels next summer, definitely watch WandaVision and Ms. Marvel.
-If you want to watch anything else, they're all pretty stand-alone. Shang-Chi doesn't need any prior viewing of anything previously released, same with Eternals, The Falcon & The Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, Moon Knight, and Ms. Marvel. For now, these are fairly stand-alone affairs, but future installments of the MCU through Phases 5 and 6 (of the Multiverse Saga) will incorporate all of these characters and their stories.
-Black Widow is a stand-alone story that takes place between Civil War and Infinity War, but if you want to watch the Hawkeye series on Disney+, definitely watch Black Widow first.

-Marc.

[ZirconBlue]

I haven't kept up with much MCU since Endgame as I felt like things were "complete", or at least as complete as I wanted them to be.

Now it's tough to find footing - I thought about watching this over the weekend, but I realized that I don't even know where things stand anymore. Do I need to watch Shang Chi, and the Eternals, first? What about Doctor Strange 2? She Hulk? Falcon? Oh and let's not forget about Loki, which I assume to be in the "Yes" column.

Other than Endgame, I haven't watched much aside from a bit of Falcon, and then also Wandavision. Both were good, but not great. But it just seems like there is too much going on. 4-5 films leading into Avengers seemed reasonable. Now we're already there (and then some) with Phase 4, plus there are 3-4 10ish hour TV shows that would take even longer to catch-up on. And no sign of what it's building toward. Just feels like we're in the middle of a weird transition, leading to nowhere in particular.

No. You honestly can have skipped everything after endgame and it won’t impact this movie.

If you haven't kept up since Endgame, here's what I think should be watched if you want to catch up on something in particular:
-If you want to watch Spider-Man: No Way Home, you need to watch Far From Home (obviously).
-If you want to watch Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness, definitely watch WandaVision on Disney+.
-If you want to watch Thor: Love & Thunder, you're good. It pretty much picks up with Thor from Endgame.
-If you plan to watch Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, you're good as well.
-If you plan on seeing Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantumania next February, definitely watch Loki on Disney+.
-If you plan to watch The Marvels next summer, definitely watch WandaVision and Ms. Marvel.
-If you want to watch anything else, they're all pretty stand-alone. Shang-Chi doesn't need any prior viewing of anything previously released, same with Eternals, The Falcon & The Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, Moon Knight, and Ms. Marvel. For now, these are fairly stand-alone affairs, but future installments of the MCU through Phases 5 and 6 (of the Multiverse Saga) will incorporate all of these characters and their stories.
-Black Widow is a stand-alone story that takes place between Civil War and Infinity War, but if you want to watch the Hawkeye series on Disney+, definitely watch Black Widow first.

-Marc.

Good summary!

[Skeever]

I haven't kept up with much MCU since Endgame as I felt like things were "complete", or at least as complete as I wanted them to be.

Now it's tough to find footing - I thought about watching this over the weekend, but I realized that I don't even know where things stand anymore. Do I need to watch Shang Chi, and the Eternals, first? What about Doctor Strange 2? She Hulk? Falcon? Oh and let's not forget about Loki, which I assume to be in the "Yes" column.

Other than Endgame, I haven't watched much aside from a bit of Falcon, and then also Wandavision. Both were good, but not great. But it just seems like there is too much going on. 4-5 films leading into Avengers seemed reasonable. Now we're already there (and then some) with Phase 4, plus there are 3-4 10ish hour TV shows that would take even longer to catch-up on. And no sign of what it's building toward. Just feels like we're in the middle of a weird transition, leading to nowhere in particular.

No. You honestly can have skipped everything after endgame and it won’t impact this movie.

If you haven't kept up since Endgame, here's what I think should be watched if you want to catch up on something in particular:
-If you want to watch Spider-Man: No Way Home, you need to watch Far From Home (obviously).
-If you want to watch Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness, definitely watch WandaVision on Disney+.
-If you want to watch Thor: Love & Thunder, you're good. It pretty much picks up with Thor from Endgame.
-If you plan to watch Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, you're good as well.
-If you plan on seeing Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantumania next February, definitely watch Loki on Disney+.
-If you plan to watch The Marvels next summer, definitely watch WandaVision and Ms. Marvel.
-If you want to watch anything else, they're all pretty stand-alone. Shang-Chi doesn't need any prior viewing of anything previously released, same with Eternals, The Falcon & The Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, Moon Knight, and Ms. Marvel. For now, these are fairly stand-alone affairs, but future installments of the MCU through Phases 5 and 6 (of the Multiverse Saga) will incorporate all of these characters and their stories.
-Black Widow is a stand-alone story that takes place between Civil War and Infinity War, but if you want to watch the Hawkeye series on Disney+, definitely watch Black Widow first.

-Marc.

This is excellent, thanks. I've watched WandaVision, and liked it, so I think I will catch-up as follows:

+Shang Chi (I love Tony Leung, and a big fan of HK movies in general)
+Dr. Strange (liked WandaVision)
+Thor (liked them all so far)
+Probably see Black Panther in Theaters

Then... IDK? Nothing else on that list really speaks to me. Maybe I'll dive deeper if the next "ensemble" movie piques my interest in any of the characters I don't know too well.

[jammindude]

It’s becoming more and more apparent that Loki at least is 100% essential viewing moving forward. In fact, I will most likely be rewatching that before Quantumania, and then probably again before the new two Avengers films.