2022 NFL Thread (Chiefs win Super Bowl 57)

[King Postwhore]

He will be.  They all do.  Look at Marino at the end of their careers.  They become impatient with players, coached and refs because they see the game that many others don't. 

Add that it's easier to get a call these days so make a fuss and the refs crumble.

[Stadler]

Mahomes hit after the pass and pushed hard to the ground.  No flag.

BUT ALL SUPERSTARS GET PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT.

Don't start; I watched about six minutes of that game and saw TWO gimme penalties against the Raiders, including one after a missed field goal that gave them first down and led to Kelce's fourth TD.  (Though there was one against them too; Carr got brought down and while I didn't see the play, Scott Van Pelt was complaining about the flag on that one too). 

From what I saw, the Raiders LOST that game as much as the Chiefs won it.  Adams has to make that catch.  That two point conversion looked closer than the refs made it out to be.   The Raiders have the right idea, they just aren't executing to the level of a NFL-level team college-level team Pop Warner-level team.  I'm no McDaniels fan, but I think their point differential is what, negative five points? 

[El Barto]

Why someone gave Hoodie Jr another shot at being a head coach is beyond me. He'll be back on the Pats sidelines next year, most likely.

Feel bad for the team, they deserve a real head coach.

Not sure he'll be welcome in New England next time. Partly because I think Bill wants O'Brien back as OC, and mostly because JMD poached several of NE's assistants when he left, and that's the sort of thing Bill will hold a grudge over. Also not sure he won't turn out to be alright in LV.

[Stadler]

But he wins.  I'll take "Whiny Bitch for seven rings, Alex" all day long.  That call against Brady wasn't the only really questionable roughing the passer call even just this week.  This is a league problem, not a Brady problem. 

[Stadler]

He will be.  They all do.  Look at Marino at the end of their careers.  They become impatient with players, coached and refs because they see the game that many others don't. 

Add that it's easier to get a call these days so make a fuss and the refs crumble.

Honestly, if I was a Chiefs fan - and I'm not really, though I've come to respect Reid as a coach - I'd actually want him trying harder for the edge.  I want guys on my team that will do just about anything to win, short of seriously hurting another player or themselves. 

[Stadler]

Why someone gave Hoodie Jr another shot at being a head coach is beyond me. He'll be back on the Pats sidelines next year, most likely.

Feel bad for the team, they deserve a real head coach.

Not sure he'll be welcome in New England next time. Partly because I think Bill wants O'Brien back as OC, and mostly because JMD poached several of NE's assistants when he left, and that's the sort of thing Bill will hold a grudge over. Also not sure he won't turn out to be alright in LV.

The team is bought in to his system, and he has decent players.  The execution problem is fixable; if he fixes it, he will get the last laugh.  I agree with you; I think Bill wants O'Brien in there.  That's the next step, not Josh McDaniels. 

[Dublagent66]

Yeah, that bad call almost cost KC the game.  Loved it when the two Raiders receivers ran into each other on that last play.  I think I remember that happening to the Raiders several years ago. 

[King Postwhore]

31 other fan bases:  Tom Brady gets all the roughing the passer calls!

Facts:

[Dublagent66]

Here's my take on it.  Going back to the Tua incident when he was slammed to the ground last week.  They didn't call that when I think they should've.  How is hitting a QB in the head and neck area an obvious penalty but unnecessarily slamming him to the ground isn't a penalty until it happens to TB a week later?  Oh no!  We can't have a concussed TB now can we?  The tackles of Tua and Brady happened the exact same way.  I think the refs try way too hard to compensate for previous mistakes.  It was pretty damn obvious last night after the Derek Carr incident which was a perfectly executed sack/fumble recovery by KC and the penalty almost cost them the game.

[KevShmev]

Mahomes hit after the pass and pushed hard to the ground.  No flag.

BUT ALL SUPERSTARS GET PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT.

Don't start; I watched about six minutes of that game and saw TWO gimme penalties against the Raiders, including one after a missed field goal that gave them first down and led to Kelce's fourth TD.  (Though there was one against them too; Carr got brought down and while I didn't see the play, Scott Van Pelt was complaining about the flag on that one too). 

From what I saw, the Raiders LOST that game as much as the Chiefs won it.  Adams has to make that catch.  That two point conversion looked closer than the refs made it out to be.   The Raiders have the right idea, they just aren't executing to the level of a NFL-level team college-level team Pop Warner-level team.  I'm no McDaniels fan, but I think their point differential is what, negative five points?

No, I am gonna start.  The play I referenced in the quote above was a nothing-burger just like the one on BBB Sunday.  Later in the game, Mahomes was flung to the ground way worse than BBB...no flag.  Consistency is the issue, yes, but not every QB is wearing diapers and going to cry to the officials every time he gets touched.  You can dress it up as BB and BBB doing whatever it takes to win, and I get that most athletes and coaches at the level will do it, but it's about the optics.  I think it's annoying as hell when a receiver throws his arms up in the arm for a flag every time a DB makes a good play on a pass, and it's just as annoying when QBs beg for calls.  Do we really want (American) football to turn into soccer where everyone is flopping and begging for calls?

[King Postwhore]

It's annoying in any sport.

[El Barto]

31 other fan bases:  Tom Brady gets all the roughing the passer calls!

Facts:

Nothing like longevity to make the law of averages really work out for you. 

Also, roughing the passer calls are way down this year. Relative to the last 5 years it's kind of been open season on QBs as far as the zebras are concerned.

As was suggested, it's just the inconsistency of it. And in something like RtP that is necessarily subjective you're not going to get steady, predictable calls. The Brady chart shows just that. The problem is that you get into a trough like this and people demand change. As Stadler the Lawyer would say, great cases make terrible laws. Look no further than the Saints no-call in the NFC championship game for the best example. That saddled us with a worthless review system for a year because something, anything, needed to be done. A few shitty calls this year combined with the public's appetite for delicious, satisfying outrage now have the NFL second guessing itself, and that never turns out well. And if the NFL is foolish enough to try and come up with some procedural remedy, advising the refs differently, the vultures will eat them alive. There's nothing really that can be done.

And truthfully, that's fine. That outrage is just as compelling as the product they're selling. Kev can lament the death of the NFL and how silly it's become, but he'll still watch it, in part because of how silly it's become.

[bosk1]

31 other fan bases:  Tom Brady gets all the roughing the passer calls!

Facts:

Those may be facts, but they don't prove what you think they prove.  The relevant fact is not how many RtP penalties were called against either side, but how many were called that shouldn't have been called.  A game can be called perfectly fairly and 100% consistent with the rules, and you still wouldn't expect the penalties to necessarily be equal because some teams just commit more penalties.  There isn't really a stat to measure what you are trying to show.

[King Postwhore]

It proves that people that scream that Brady gets all the calls are wrong. It proves that in his career, the other QB's got roughing the passer calls 10 more times in the games he has played.

That is a fact.

[King Postwhore]

El Barto, wouldn't you say the real problem is the Rules Committee?  The more they add, the more convoluted it is for referees? 

Too many rules left for interpretation. 

[TAC]

31 other fan bases:  Tom Brady gets all the roughing the passer calls!

Facts:

Those may be facts, but they don't prove what you think they prove.  The relevant fact is not how many RtP penalties were called against either side, but how many were called that shouldn't have been called. A game can be called perfectly fairly and 100% consistent with the rules, and you still wouldn't expect the penalties to necessarily be equal because some teams just commit more penalties.  There isn't really a stat to measure what you are trying to show.

This is really nerd territory isn't it? I mean, all the nerd stats in sports are things like "Expected Hits", Expected Catch Rate", etc..

Do we start rating teams on "Expected Super Bowls"?


My post isn't to support anything Brady, but what Joe posted are actual results.

I feel like over time, sure Brady got some questionable calls, but you'd have to assume that the Pats D were whistled for some questionable ones as well. Those things even out, unless blind Brady hatred just won't accept it.

[KevShmev]

As was suggested, it's just the inconsistency of it. And in something like RtP that is necessarily subjective you're not going to get steady, predictable calls. The Brady chart shows just that. The problem is that you get into a trough like this and people demand change. As Stadler the Lawyer would say, great cases make terrible laws. Look no further than the Saints no-call in the NFC championship game for the best example. That saddled us with a worthless review system for a year because something, anything, needed to be done. A few shitty calls this year combined with the public's appetite for delicious, satisfying outrage now have the NFL second guessing itself, and that never turns out well. And if the NFL is foolish enough to try and come up with some procedural remedy, advising the refs differently, the vultures will eat them alive. There's nothing really that can be done.

And truthfully, that's fine. That outrage is just as compelling as the product they're selling. Kev can lament the death of the NFL and how silly it's become, but he'll still watch it, in part because of how silly it's become.

Habit is why I will still watch, to be honest, but I'd think a lot more of the NFL if they just came out and said, "Football is a brutal sport and injuries happen," but they can't do that because they are scared of lawsuits now because of CTE and all that comes with it, so they have to pretend like they care when it's obvious that they don't.  I mean, if they really did, RBs wouldn't still be allowed to put their heads down and crash into defenders helmets first when running through the gap, but QBs sell tickets and get ratings, so they get protected and everyone else is fair game to get knocked the fuck out.

Not that I root for injuries, but I'd almost like to see a defender absolutely drill a QB this weekend with a late hit and then after the game say, "Well, you are going to throw a flag on me if I breathe on the QB, so I might as get my pound of flesh."  It won't happen, because I don't believe most defenders want to head hunt, not to mention the league would hammer them with a fine and suspension, but it would send a message that defenders are tired of getting shit on.

[axeman90210]

It proves that people that scream that Brady gets all the calls are wrong. It proves that in his career, the other QB's got roughing the passer calls 10 more times in the games he has played.

That is a fact.

Yeah, but like bosk said, the totals don't necessarily prove everything. It's not about how many times roughing the passer was called, but how many times it was called when it shouldn't have been. Let's take a fictional game between the Jets and Patriots (and you know it's fictional because I'm going to say the Jets won this game handily ). If the Patriots get flagged for roughing the passer 5 times, but all were legitimate penalties and the Jets were flagged three times, but only two should have been called, then Brady get the benefit of the doubt even though the Patriots got more total roughing the passer flags.

[KevShmev]

This is really nerd territory isn't it? I mean, all the nerd stats in sports are things like "Expected Hits", Expected Catch Rate", etc..

Do we start rating teams on "Expected Super Bowls"?


My post isn't to support anything Brady, but what Joe posted are actual results.

I feel like over time, sure Brady got some questionable calls, but you'd have to assume that the Pats D were whistled for some questionable ones as well. Those things even out, unless blind Brady hatred just won't accept it.

Well, facts without context are fun, especially when they come from a Twitter (always reliable when it comes to facts  ) handle whose entire account is dedicated to slurping BBB.

[Stadler]

31 other fan bases:  Tom Brady gets all the roughing the passer calls!

Facts:

Those may be facts, but they don't prove what you think they prove.  The relevant fact is not how many RtP penalties were called against either side, but how many were called that shouldn't have been called. A game can be called perfectly fairly and 100% consistent with the rules, and you still wouldn't expect the penalties to necessarily be equal because some teams just commit more penalties.  There isn't really a stat to measure what you are trying to show.

This is really nerd territory isn't it? I mean, all the nerd stats in sports are things like "Expected Hits", Expected Catch Rate", etc..

Do we start rating teams on "Expected Super Bowls"?


My post isn't to support anything Brady, but what Joe posted are actual results.

I feel like over time, sure Brady got some questionable calls, but you'd have to assume that the Pats D were whistled for some questionable ones as well. Those things even out, unless blind Brady hatred just won't accept it.

That's where my money is riding.   There is literally no fact in the world that will slake the hate.  And again I have to ask:  why is it that  in a country that professes to be the "greatest in the world", is "greatness" so readily mocked and shunned? 

[Stadler]

This is really nerd territory isn't it? I mean, all the nerd stats in sports are things like "Expected Hits", Expected Catch Rate", etc..

Do we start rating teams on "Expected Super Bowls"?


My post isn't to support anything Brady, but what Joe posted are actual results.

I feel like over time, sure Brady got some questionable calls, but you'd have to assume that the Pats D were whistled for some questionable ones as well. Those things even out, unless blind Brady hatred just won't accept it.

Well, facts without context are fun, especially when they come from a Twitter (always reliable when it comes to facts  ) handle whose entire account is dedicated to slurping BBB.

What's the "BBB" reference?  Who is that?

[King Postwhore]

Tim, that's my point.  People are blinded by there ties to the teams they love and the hate they have. I put one fact out.  Brady gets less roughing the passer calls then the other QB's he's face off against.  People will twist themselves to dismiss hard data because of their hate of a player they are tired of him dominating.  Does he bitch more than the past?  100%  Is he getting more rouging the passer calls?  Doesn't seem so.

Using the last 3 regular seasons for this example, he had 5 called for him while the other QB's have received 11 of those calls. That is a fact.

[hunnus2000]

I heard a stat this morning where roughing penalties are down by around 40% compared to this time last year. I also think we're seeing an over correction from the refs because of the Tua debacle.

I will concede though, Brady knows how to work the refs......

[TAC]

I will concede though, Brady knows how to work the refs......

I'm sure there's truth to this. But what does that mean exactly?



Not directing this at Hunnus...

If Joe's stats are correct, RtP calls on Brady are significantly less than against his opponent.
You don't have to be a Brady Bobo to see that. A quick glance tells me that they are less in 13 of the 20 years.

Are some of those calls iffy? Sure. But are some of the calls against the Pats D iffy then? Only a fool would say no and that they are 100% legit.

[El Barto]

El Barto, wouldn't you say the real problem is the Rules Committee?  The more they add, the more convoluted it is for referees? 

Too many rules left for interpretation.

No, I think the problem is with the fans. Fans egged on by talking heads (and in this case disembodied voices) who trade in uproar. Application of some rules will necessarily be subjective. Them's just the breaks. Subjective calls will neither be consistent nor predictable, and sometimes they'll seem ridiculous. As I've always said, it all evens out in the end. It's shitty when it happens at a point where there's no time left for it to work itself out, but that's typically the exception.

The trick here will be for the league to ignore all of the bitching and moaning and not overreact.

[King Postwhore]

I get that too.  The advent of HD instant replay has added ten fold to what you're talking about.

[El Barto]

I get that too.  The advent of HD instant replay has added ten fold to what you're talking about.

And it's the same conversation we've been having for decades. Mostly PI calls, but also bad spots, and that whole thing about what actually is a catch. As soon as a delay of game non-call costs a team a game we'll see the same thing. I'm pretty sure that'll be the next uproar.

[KevShmev]

That's where my money is riding.   There is literally no fact in the world that will slake the hate.  And again I have to ask:  why is it that  in a country that professes to be the "greatest in the world", is "greatness" so readily mocked and shunned?

I will remember this the next time you question the greatness of Mahomes, who, by the standards set in this thread this week, is clearly in your head.

What's the "BBB" reference?  Who is that?

Bitch Boy Brady.  It saves me keystrokes.

[hunnus2000]

I will concede though, Brady knows how to work the refs......

I'm sure there's truth to this. But what does that mean exactly?



Not directing this at Hunnus...

If Joe's stats are correct, RtP calls on Brady are significantly less than against his opponent.
You don't have to be a Brady Bobo to see that. A quick glance tells me that they are less in 13 of the 20 years.

Are some of those calls iffy? Sure. But are some of the calls against the Pats D iffy then? Only a fool would say no and that they are 100% legit.

What I mean is that Brady has been around for eons and has developed a rapport or even friendships with the refs. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a ref or two asked him for an autographed jersey or football or whatever. Do you think he's going to get a favorable call or spot of the football?1

[Stadler]

I heard a stat this morning where roughing penalties are down by around 40% compared to this time last year. I also think we're seeing an over correction from the refs because of the Tua debacle.

I will concede though, Brady knows how to work the refs......

And I'll say again: as a fan, I want my players to be doing everything they can within the rules (and maybe even without) to win, including lobbying the refs. If Mahomes isn't doing that, and I'm a Chiefs fan, I'm wondering why he's not giving that little extra.  None of this is a character flaw or an indication of their moral fibre, and it's ridiculous that so many people want to make it so. 

I'm the nicest guy on the planet in real life.  I haven't been in a real fight in over three decades.   I think that - except for TAC, because we weren't drinking, and except for Adami who doesn't drink - I think I've bought a beer for every person on this board that I've met in real life.  But when I was playing hockey?  Come into the crease and you're getting the butt end of my stick in your balls. It's just what happens when you're scrapping in front of the net in hockey.  I want that other player thinking twice before they come into the crease when I'm on the ice.   Playing softball; am I faking that the throw is going to another base so you stand up into third instead of sliding?  Of course I am.  Am I pointing to the mark on the ground where the ball landed (out of the strike zone) after the ump called a strike?  Of course I am.  I want every one of my teammates to know that I will do anything in my power to help the team win.  I'm not really interested in what the girlfriend of the other team's player has to say about what I'm doing.

[TAC]

What I mean is that Brady has been around for eons and has developed a rapport or even friendships with the refs. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a ref or two asked him for an autographed jersey or football or whatever. Do you think he's going to get a favorable call or spot of the football?1

That's certainly a reasonable deduction. So I have never said it wouldn't or hasn't happened, but I think people tend to overstate it, that's all.

[Stadler]

That's where my money is riding.   There is literally no fact in the world that will slake the hate.  And again I have to ask:  why is it that  in a country that professes to be the "greatest in the world", is "greatness" so readily mocked and shunned?

I will remember this the next time you question the greatness of Mahomes, who, by the standards set in this thread this week, is clearly in your head.

I'll say again: I have no beef with Mahomes.  He is a great player; right this second, he's probably the best active QB in the league right now.  I don't have pet names for him; he's not "my bitch boy".  My SOLE BEEF with anything to do with Patrick Mahomes is the anointing.   My SOLE BEEF with him is putting him in the echelon of greats based on what he MIGHT do, not what he's done (and that includes not just A great season, but a run of a DECADE OR MORE of great seasons). 

VERY VERY VERY different than the very personal hatred for Brady the MAN, where not only are his amazing on-field exploits down-played and minimized, but also his character and personality are judged as if they matter in terms of playing football. 

[El Barto]

I will concede though, Brady knows how to work the refs......

I'm sure there's truth to this. But what does that mean exactly?



Not directing this at Hunnus...

If Joe's stats are correct, RtP calls on Brady are significantly less than against his opponent.
You don't have to be a Brady Bobo to see that. A quick glance tells me that they are less in 13 of the 20 years.

Are some of those calls iffy? Sure. But are some of the calls against the Pats D iffy then? Only a fool would say no and that they are 100% legit.

What I mean is that Brady has been around for eons and has developed a rapport or even friendships with the refs. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a ref or two asked him for an autographed jersey or football or whatever. Do you think he's going to get a favorable call or spot of the football?1

I count fairness as one of my stronger qualities. To that end, I'm more likely to err on the side of "you're wrong!" with my friends, and give my "enemies" the benefit of the doubt. BBB has worked with these refs for a long time, and I'm sure they do know him. I also think these guys are capable of calling him out when need be, and in a judgement call, those same guys that know him will probably go the opposite direction. Partly for appearance, and partly because they can.

Something that I've always assumed is that refs are football fans. I couldn't be a side judge and not appreciate a spectacular sideline catch, or a player tiptoeing along the sideline without stepping out. Their job doesn't allow them to shout "holy shit, what a catch!" They've got work to do. During a lull in the action a few minutes later I suspect they probably will sneak over to tell him "that was a hell of a catch." I know I certainly would. "Helluva throw, Tommy" probably comes up a lot. Shouldn't really effect anything.

[El Barto]

Overlooked this week in lieu of roughing calls was Davante Adams shoving a cameraman down when leaving the field. He's now been charged with assault in the matter. This certainly ups the odds of the league suspending him. More interesting to me is JMD's stance on this. Seems like it would have been a good opportunity to assert some authority, and a team first attitude. And it would have been a freebee. Announce immediately afterward that it was unacceptable and suspend him for a game, knowing that the league is going to suspend him anyway. Essentially saying "yeah, not our problem, let the league sort it out" isn't a very good look.

[Stadler]

Overlooked this week in lieu of roughing calls was Davante Adams shoving a cameraman down when leaving the field. He's now been charged with assault in the matter. This certainly ups the odds of the league suspending him. More interesting to me is JMD's stance on this. Seems like it would have been a good opportunity to assert some authority, and a team first attitude. And it would have been a freebee. Announce immediately afterward that it was unacceptable and suspend him for a game, knowing that the league is going to suspend him anyway. Essentially saying "yeah, not our problem, let the league sort it out" isn't a very good look.

Don't disagree.   Adams apologized in the post-game interview, so he's taking responsibility, but that only goes so far.