Sportsball rant

[El Barto]

I think one of the things that really separates sporting teams from bands is that the latter is always a thing. Even when they're between tour and recording you've still got their music, and they're still the same band you like, responsible for music you like. Sports are seasonal. You get one shot a year, and then it's over for six months. I think that adds a great deal to the type of popularity teams get. It's actually kind of refreshing when the season ends and football stops being a thing for six months. And since it's a competition, it adds another unique element. I suspect if Dream Theater's sole ambition was to win a Grammy every year we'd see a very different sort of fan base much more akin to those scumbag Eagles fans.

That said, and I've said this many times before, it's the hometown loyalty thing that I've never really gotten. I think everybody starts there, the Cowboys were the only team that mattered to me for most of my life. People move away and they still root for the team they grew up with, based on nothing but traditional familiarity. And it's not even the players. I've got far more in common with Matt Stafford than I do probably anybody on the Cowboy's roster. When the Cowboys truly offended me I jumped ship and decided to follow a team that I actually respected. A team that behaved the way I think I would, and it's made a huge difference.

[Stadler]

I don't get the comparison between rabid sports fans and rabid music fans. It's apples and oranges. The thing about sports (as opposed to music) is that the idea is to win at all costs, while concurrently beating your opponent to a pulp. Which can bring out the worst in people... a sense of misplaced pride, provincialism or tribalism. The worst is watching these idiots beating each other up in the stands, spitting and throwing beer at each other, etc... which seems to be happening on an increasing basis. Soccer fans killing a referee... baseball or hockey fans rioting and vandalizing after losing a playoffs... this to me is unfathomable.

Now don't get me wrong, I cheer hard for my Mets, Islanders and Giants to win, while cursing out the Braves, Bruins and Eagles. But sportsball games are purely a diversion, not quite the soul-transcending thing that music is to me.

It's not always that extreme on the sports side, and the music side isn't always that passive.  I always sort of chuckle to myself when I hear people like Eddie Trunk making it a competition.  'Oh, those awards shows, all lip-synched, they have no talent, 18 writers for every song, blah blah blah, metal rules, I'm cool!"   I've actually seen more fights at music events than sporting events, frankly*.


* If you exclude the year I was a security guard for the Hartford Whalers; when the Bruins or Rangers came to town we had a different protocol, and our bosses wouldn't let any individuals go into the upper sections, you had to go in pairs.   It was unofficial, but the woman who gave out the assignments each event did her damnedest to make sure that the upper sections were only staffed by men.

While I wasn't there for all the fights you witnessed at music events, I would bet money the argument wasn't that X artist is better than Y artist, at least not the majority of it, which is the issue with sports being talked about here.

I witnessed fights at music shows and it usually comes from being too rough at a mosh-pit or acting like a (insert insult). I've seen far more fights at Yankees, Nets, Knicks or Mets games just because someone cheering for the road team was sitting nearby.

No, you're right about that.  Too much to drink, too much pushing, but not the jersey you're wearing.


I've written this before, but when I was a kid - I think I was 10 or so - my dad had been sick for a couple years and we went to Boston for some deep-dive testing at the Mayo Clinic.  As a kid - oblivious! - it was a cool trip; hotel, and dad scored four tickets to the Red Sox at Fenway.   Now, I grew up a Yankees fan - I can still recite the starting lineup and batting order for the '76, '77 Yankees - and worshipped Thurman Munson.  I wore my "15" Yankees jersey to the game.   I don't remember it much, but in later years my dad related getting beer spilled on him because of the jersey.   

I later came to love Fenway, and I used to go frequently to games.  I have as many Red Sox shirts as I do Yankee ones and I still have friends and family that cannot fathom how I could do such a thing. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I don't get the comparison between rabid sports fans and rabid music fans. It's apples and oranges. The thing about sports (as opposed to music) is that the idea is to win at all costs, while concurrently beating your opponent to a pulp. Which can bring out the worst in people... a sense of misplaced pride, provincialism or tribalism. The worst is watching these idiots beating each other up in the stands, spitting and throwing beer at each other, etc... which seems to be happening on an increasing basis. Soccer fans killing a referee... baseball or hockey fans rioting and vandalizing after losing a playoffs... this to me is unfathomable.

Now don't get me wrong, I cheer hard for my Mets, Islanders and Giants to win, while cursing out the Braves, Bruins and Eagles. But sportsball games are purely a diversion, not quite the soul-transcending thing that music is to me.

Well first off, Music is not a competition. It can be a competition, such as award shows, or music shows like The Voice, American Idol, and No Cover.

Sports is a competition, and it's had much more of an impact than Music has. Sports includes politics and always has. There was a moment when workers weren't allowed to play sports during their breaks, and when they were allowed to play some past time sports during their lunch breaks, their production values were higher.

But it is also hilarious that how people treat Cowboys fans and make fun of them, is the same as how some fans of music treat Nickelback.

Also though, you have to include just how much alcohol is involved in causing people's excitement and emotions to run high and be acted upon. It's why I say that Country concerts and Rap concerts are very different from Metal and Reggae shows. Just because of the alcohol involved.

There is more community in the metal genre than there is on the other genres. Which also plays a role.

But I will also say. Sports is just as soul-transcending to people, just as music is to you. Just because you don't experience it that way, doesn't mean others do.

I found it hilarious when seeing the Cannibal Corpse show and the music that was playing. I really feel the bands were trolling the audience by playing some interesting music in between sets. It's also hilarious hearing people cheer at the sound of the tech, checking the guitar.

In the end, there's a lot involved with Sports that make it a passionate, political, game that can have some fascinating consequences for the turnout of the game and who I determined the winner. There's a reason why Jesse Owens winning the Olympics in the Nazi Germany was such a huge middle finger to Hitler's Aryan race agenda.

[Lonk]

Sports is a competition, and it's had much more of an impact than Music has.

Debatable.

[King Postwhore]

I've always said, sports and music are my mistresses.

[Ben_Jamin]

Sports is a competition, and it's had much more of an impact than Music has.

Debatable.

Of course it can be debatable.

Music and Sports are two very different things that are essential for humans.

All cultures utilize Games, Sports, and Music within their cultural customs.

Music is utilized within Sports, Queen's "We Will Rock You" is known because of the way it's utilized in Sports to pep up the players and to give the fans a sense of inclusion in the sports game being played. It's the same sense of inclusion like when bands have vocal moments that can be sung by the audience. The end of TCOT, or Iron Maiden and their Woah's.

But, Since sports is dealing with more physicality and shows the strength of the human body, that is why it is seen as more impactful than music. Because of that dominance a human has over another human.

It's like saying...Are you playing for the love of the game and the sport, or are you playing for the competition to be known as the best human who plays the game, the GOAT. Same with music, are you playing for the love of music, or are you playing to be known as the best musician known to man, the GOAT.

With this, I attribute and relate it to Fandom. In are you a fan due to the love of the game and the sport, a fan due to the love of music, or are you a fan because the person/band is the GOAT.

Such as how most Metalheads view Metal as the greatest thing to ever grace music while shunning other forms of music. The same way fans of one team shun the other teams, yet they are both part of the same game and sport. Yet, the one who is a fan due to the love of the game/music, you would enjoy the way each team plays the sport, how each genre plays it's part in music. 

In the end, it's about fun, but also there is such a thing as serious fun. And humans can take that fun too seriously where it becomes more than a game and turns into a sport such as Kumate', a game played for one's life. Or in the terms of Crossroads, battling the devil in a guitar duel to win one's soul.

In other words, Fans are the worst sometimes when it comes to appreciating music or the game, and fans do tend to take it too far. That is what I consider to be Idolism and not beneficial at all, it's detrimental as that Idolism blends the line between fun and seriousness of the game and/or music. An example in music could be the Classical Music Enthusiasts and their sense of Elitism. When understanding music and those composers, I guarantee that Mozart and the like would be down to throw in some Trap Beats and go hard with the Double Bass.

It's a very fascinating topic....

[Stadler]

To me they are separate but equal. 

Sports taught me invaluable lessons about leadership, teamwork, cameraderie, discipline, drive, role playing, dealing with pressure... not all of them were positive lessons, though thankfully most were, and in some cases the lessons came a LOT later when I had more perspective, but lessons nonetheless.

Music didn't "teach" me much per se, but it was and is a pathway to spiritual release that I don't know I would have found any other way.  For me, and I know this sounds a little weird, but music would sometimes/often put me in the mindset to either perform or be open to the lessons that sports would teach me.  I can remember playing intramural soccer in college, and my routine would invariably involve a dose of Ritchie Blackmore's instrumental music.  I used to use "Awaken" as a sort of centering agent before playing softball (not anymore but I was a very good softball player in my day).  Not as much, but I still use music to put myself in a good place if need be.

[Ben_Jamin]

To me they are separate but equal. 

Sports taught me invaluable lessons about leadership, teamwork, cameraderie, discipline, drive, role playing, dealing with pressure... not all of them were positive lessons, though thankfully most were, and in some cases the lessons came a LOT later when I had more perspective, but lessons nonetheless.

Music didn't "teach" me much per se, but it was and is a pathway to spiritual release that I don't know I would have found any other way.  For me, and I know this sounds a little weird, but music would sometimes/often put me in the mindset to either perform or be open to the lessons that sports would teach me.  I can remember playing intramural soccer in college, and my routine would invariably involve a dose of Ritchie Blackmore's instrumental music.  I used to use "Awaken" as a sort of centering agent before playing softball (not anymore but I was a very good softball player in my day).  Not as much, but I still use music to put myself in a good place if need be.

I've been fortunate enough to experience both Music and Sports, in terms of the experience of "Play". Both have taught me various things, and also showed myself what I am capable of. What it also comes down to in both is that, if you want to strive to be the best, you have to basically live it. You have to make it, your number one priority in life. Your only limit is your mental self and your physical self. Not all people are formed the same, so that is why there will always be someone better than you at certain things, and why one person can not do everything.

I view listening to music the same as watching a sports game being played. And there is a difference of perspectives of the Spectator and the Player. Each has it's own understanding of what constitutes the Game.

It is also fascinating how the players of the Sports Teams utilize Music, such as how you were describing with yourself, for the player to prep them mentally for the physical Game. And musicians will sometimes utilize Sports techniques like Stretching, Exercising, warming-up physically before playing the music. 

[Cool Chris]

That said, and I've said this many times before, it's the hometown loyalty thing that I've never really gotten.

Same here. And some people go as far to say you must cheer for your local team. I don't get that at all. No one should be beholden to a team by virtue of their family or life circumstances.

[Lonk]

To me they are separate but equal. 

Sports taught me invaluable lessons about leadership, teamwork, cameraderie, discipline, drive, role playing, dealing with pressure... not all of them were positive lessons, though thankfully most were, and in some cases the lessons came a LOT later when I had more perspective, but lessons nonetheless.

Music didn't "teach" me much per se, but it was and is a pathway to spiritual release that I don't know I would have found any other way.  For me, and I know this sounds a little weird, but music would sometimes/often put me in the mindset to either perform or be open to the lessons that sports would teach me.  I can remember playing intramural soccer in college, and my routine would invariably involve a dose of Ritchie Blackmore's instrumental music.  I used to use "Awaken" as a sort of centering agent before playing softball (not anymore but I was a very good softball player in my day).  Not as much, but I still use music to put myself in a good place if need be.

Ben, I am responding to you but using Stadler's post to highlight something.

The bolded alone makes music (In my view) a lot more influential than sports when it comes to history. You cannot look at religion/spirituality in history without associating it with music. Some of the earliest musical instruments (note that this is instruments, not music itself) are as old as 30K-40K years old. Of course I have no evidence that sports were not around at that time so I am just speculating here. Even if you take the spiritual side of music out of it, there is still so much more that music affected in history and where we are today. Heck, just go back a little over 100 years in New Orleans.

And Stadler, those lessons you learned from sports are also present in music. I usually joke at work how musicians are the laziest workers, because they have all the skills needed to succeed (Detail oriented, being able to focus on short term and long term goals, team player, etc.) but don't know how to apply them to real life situations  (Just a joke, don't take me seriously here)

[Stadler]

You're right, Victor, about the sports analogy; the best moments I've ever had playing music have ALL been - zero exceptions - when multiple people are playing and the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Just like a sports team. I don't know if you've ever experienced that before, but I've had it happen like three times in my life; we're playing and there's a "zone" or a "vibe" and it's like you're vibrating, or there's a resonance.  It literally FEELS different.  (I know this sounds weird).   

And it requires little talent in my experience; I'm not that good a player, but I can remember jamming with some friends on the Nirvana version of "The Man Who Sold The World"; there was a drummer, two guitars and me on bass and when we were playing the solo section, it just "elevated" for lack of a better word and we ended up playing for like 10 minutes and I can still remember/recall that feeling, over 20 years later.  It's an amazing feeling.

[Ben_Jamin]

To me they are separate but equal. 

Sports taught me invaluable lessons about leadership, teamwork, cameraderie, discipline, drive, role playing, dealing with pressure... not all of them were positive lessons, though thankfully most were, and in some cases the lessons came a LOT later when I had more perspective, but lessons nonetheless.

Music didn't "teach" me much per se, but it was and is a pathway to spiritual release that I don't know I would have found any other way.  For me, and I know this sounds a little weird, but music would sometimes/often put me in the mindset to either perform or be open to the lessons that sports would teach me.  I can remember playing intramural soccer in college, and my routine would invariably involve a dose of Ritchie Blackmore's instrumental music.  I used to use "Awaken" as a sort of centering agent before playing softball (not anymore but I was a very good softball player in my day).  Not as much, but I still use music to put myself in a good place if need be.

Ben, I am responding to you but using Stadler's post to highlight something.

The bolded alone makes music (In my view) a lot more influential than sports when it comes to history. You cannot look at religion/spirituality in history without associating it with music. Some of the earliest musical instruments (note that this is instruments, not music itself) are as old as 30K-40K years old. Of course I have no evidence that sports were not around at that time so I am just speculating here. Even if you take the spiritual side of music out of it, there is still so much more that music affected in history and where we are today. Heck, just go back a little over 100 years in New Orleans.

And Stadler, those lessons you learned from sports are also present in music. I usually joke at work how musicians are the laziest workers, because they have all the skills needed to succeed (Detail oriented, being able to focus on short term and long term goals, team player, etc.) but don't know how to apply them to real life situations  (Just a joke, don't take me seriously here)

Of course I understand music is a big part of culture, it is vital to my culture. Sports is also vital, because we utilize sports in some of our cultural ceremonies. Although, it's not used as a competition. It sort of is, but that competition is not the main purpose of utilizing the sport culturally.

I am saying that in the course of History, Sports has been way vital and has had more of a world impact, than music has. But I also agree that Music is very important and vital throughout history.

The thing is too, most cultures don't utilize music for fun. Its utilized for important rituals within that culture. It can be utilized for fun though, meaning outside of that cultural ritual. Its utilized during day to day life, or in my cultures case, it used to be utilized, we would/do sing to our crops in our field.

In a sense, they are both vital aspects within history. One just has more prominence in the overall aspect of the world. We don't see many nations holding major events for music, and have a big world-wide viewership of a musical Olympic event. I do wish there was though, and that more people cared about music just as much as they care about sports.

[LudwigVan]

This is indefensible.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/rangers-fan-arrested-for-brutal-sucker-punch-of-tampa-fan-after-game-5-loss/3729041/?amp

[TAC]

I read about it, but that's my first time seeing it. Holy shit! He knocked that dude out cold.

[jingle.boy]

Sucker punches usually do when they land flush like that.

[lonestar]

Sucker punches usually do when they land flush like that.

Yup, and the dude was drunk and completely unexpected of it... That's basically hitting an off switch

[Ben_Jamin]

The guy was in his moment of glory for his team winning when that guy sucker punched him. Poor Sportsmanship, and glad someone else went after him.

I am not the least bit surprised that happened though. It could've escalated way worse too. Imagine if the fans had a strong bond, where they mob after their fallen comrade.

[Cool Chris]

Poor sportsmanship? How about poor humanship?

[TAC]

That actually happened to me at a Black Sabbath concert in 1992, although I did not go unconscious.

[Ben_Jamin]

Poor sportsmanship? How about poor humanship?

Sportsmanship because he is a sore loser that can't accept losing a game. Guaranteed he's the type that would knock over the board in a game of monopoly. 

[King Postwhore]

This is indefensible.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/rangers-fan-arrested-for-brutal-sucker-punch-of-tampa-fan-after-game-5-loss/3729041/?amp

The worst kind of people.

[hefdaddy42]

This is indefensible.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/rangers-fan-arrested-for-brutal-sucker-punch-of-tampa-fan-after-game-5-loss/3729041/?amp

What a piece of shit.

[cramx3]

Shit like that makes me a bit ashamed to be a Rangers fan.  Sick and disturbing.

[ErHaO]

I like sports and can get really into it if I watch a tense game.

Buuuut the fanatics are terrible. And it is legitimately a big burden on society. Over here it is for football/soccer, the hooligans are the worst. It is very common that special units of the police need to wipe the big cities with large amounts of damage to the cities. This is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some altercations at a concert or other events. Those don't cost our country tens of millions of euros on a yearly basis.

As a recent example there was a match between Feyenoord (Rotterdam) and AS Roma for the Europe league. They weren't even playing in Rotterdam/The Netherlands and the "fans" trashed Rotterdam once again after Feyenoord lost. Fireworks and torches were thrown around. This happens way too often. And this was a "minor" instance where the team wasn't even playing in the town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_O3jqwLJs

Not sure what it is, for other sports this does not really apply, over here at least.

[Lonk]

I like sports and can get really into it if I watch a tense game.

Buuuut the fanatics are terrible. And it is legitimately a big burden on society. Over here it is for football/soccer, the hooligans are the worst. It is very common that special units of the police need to wipe the big cities with large amounts of damage to the cities. This is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some altercations at a concert or other events. Those don't cost our country tens of millions of euros on a yearly basis.

As a recent example there was a match between Feyenoord (Rotterdam) and AS Roma for the Europe league. They weren't even playing in Rotterdam/The Netherlands and the "fans" trashed Rotterdam once again after Feyenoord lost. Fireworks and torches were thrown around. This happens way too often. And this was a "minor" instance where the team wasn't even playing in the town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_O3jqwLJs

Not sure what it is, for other sports this does not really apply, over here at least.

I don't think it happens very often here in the US, but when the Philadelphia Eagles won the super bowl a few years ago, they trashed the city pretty badly.

[ReaperKK]

I like sports and can get really into it if I watch a tense game.

Buuuut the fanatics are terrible. And it is legitimately a big burden on society. Over here it is for football/soccer, the hooligans are the worst. It is very common that special units of the police need to wipe the big cities with large amounts of damage to the cities. This is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some altercations at a concert or other events. Those don't cost our country tens of millions of euros on a yearly basis.

As a recent example there was a match between Feyenoord (Rotterdam) and AS Roma for the Europe league. They weren't even playing in Rotterdam/The Netherlands and the "fans" trashed Rotterdam once again after Feyenoord lost. Fireworks and torches were thrown around. This happens way too often. And this was a "minor" instance where the team wasn't even playing in the town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_O3jqwLJs

Not sure what it is, for other sports this does not really apply, over here at least.

I don't think it happens very often here in the US, but when the Philadelphia Eagles won the super bowl a few years ago, they trashed the city pretty badly.

My wife's first job out of college was in Philadelphia, she lived there for 8 years and she told me some crazy stories about sports fans after a game. Philly loses a game, riot; Philly wins a game, riot

[Skeever]

I like sports and can get really into it if I watch a tense game.

Buuuut the fanatics are terrible. And it is legitimately a big burden on society. Over here it is for football/soccer, the hooligans are the worst. It is very common that special units of the police need to wipe the big cities with large amounts of damage to the cities. This is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some altercations at a concert or other events. Those don't cost our country tens of millions of euros on a yearly basis.

As a recent example there was a match between Feyenoord (Rotterdam) and AS Roma for the Europe league. They weren't even playing in Rotterdam/The Netherlands and the "fans" trashed Rotterdam once again after Feyenoord lost. Fireworks and torches were thrown around. This happens way too often. And this was a "minor" instance where the team wasn't even playing in the town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_O3jqwLJs

Not sure what it is, for other sports this does not really apply, over here at least.

I don't think it happens very often here in the US, but when the Philadelphia Eagles won the super bowl a few years ago, they trashed the city pretty badly.

They did not, you're thinking of when the Phillies won the world series. Eagles celebration was actually pretty tame.

[King Postwhore]

I like sports and can get really into it if I watch a tense game.

Buuuut the fanatics are terrible. And it is legitimately a big burden on society. Over here it is for football/soccer, the hooligans are the worst. It is very common that special units of the police need to wipe the big cities with large amounts of damage to the cities. This is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some altercations at a concert or other events. Those don't cost our country tens of millions of euros on a yearly basis.

As a recent example there was a match between Feyenoord (Rotterdam) and AS Roma for the Europe league. They weren't even playing in Rotterdam/The Netherlands and the "fans" trashed Rotterdam once again after Feyenoord lost. Fireworks and torches were thrown around. This happens way too often. And this was a "minor" instance where the team wasn't even playing in the town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_O3jqwLJs

Not sure what it is, for other sports this does not really apply, over here at least.

I don't think it happens very often here in the US, but when the Philadelphia Eagles won the super bowl a few years ago, they trashed the city pretty badly.

They did not, you're thinking of when the Phillies won the world series. Eagles celebration was actually pretty tame.

Except for the fan eating the dog shit. 

[Stadler]

Yeah; they had to grease the light poles so fans wouldn't climb them. As easily, apparently, since they still climbed them. 

On one of the Ridiculousness episodes with Kevin Hart, they had a whole segment on Philly fans acting like jackasses. 

I will say this, having lived there, and knowing the people (especially in South Philly), it's not quite as distasteful when you're in the middle of it.  I mean, yeah, the horse shit is/was well over the line, but if you've ever been in the Mummer after-parade on 2 Street, a lot of it is, ultimately, in good fun even if it's fairly hard core.  I don't know; it's hard to describe.

[Skeever]

Doing stupid things =/= being a shitty fan.
Hurting people and destroying their property is being a shitty fan.

No one got hurt at the Eagles parade.
That's the difference between the Eagles and Phillies' celebrations.

[King Postwhore]

Vancouver was worse when they lost to the B's in 2011.  Same with Montreal.  All the damage and looting.

[cramx3]

I like sports and can get really into it if I watch a tense game.

Buuuut the fanatics are terrible. And it is legitimately a big burden on society. Over here it is for football/soccer, the hooligans are the worst. It is very common that special units of the police need to wipe the big cities with large amounts of damage to the cities. This is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some altercations at a concert or other events. Those don't cost our country tens of millions of euros on a yearly basis.

As a recent example there was a match between Feyenoord (Rotterdam) and AS Roma for the Europe league. They weren't even playing in Rotterdam/The Netherlands and the "fans" trashed Rotterdam once again after Feyenoord lost. Fireworks and torches were thrown around. This happens way too often. And this was a "minor" instance where the team wasn't even playing in the town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_O3jqwLJs

Not sure what it is, for other sports this does not really apply, over here at least.

I don't think it happens very often here in the US, but when the Philadelphia Eagles won the super bowl a few years ago, they trashed the city pretty badly.

They did not, you're thinking of when the Phillies won the world series. Eagles celebration was actually pretty tame.

Except for the fan eating the dog shit. 

[Lonk]

I don't think it happens very often here in the US, but when the Philadelphia Eagles won the super bowl a few years ago, they trashed the city pretty badly.

They did not, you're thinking of when the Phillies won the world series. Eagles celebration was actually pretty tame.

Maybe pretty badly was the wrong word choice, but there was property damage, things burned, cars flipped over, and certainly some people got hurt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J9yBi1i0-Y

[Cool Chris]

So is was fiery but mostly peaceful?

[Anguyen92]

Shit like that makes me a bit ashamed to be a Rangers fan.  Sick and disturbing.

This is a totally late response, but if it helps, when the incident happened, a lot of Rangers fans immediately went to the Lightning fan and checked if the guy is ok.