Coping with mental health conditions (either yours or others)

[Phoenix87x]

So here goes a thread to either discuss the challenges of dealing with mental health issues, or to work on strategies to overcome them if possible. Either stuff you are dealing with yourself or regarding other people that you encounter/interact with. 

My questions is, has anyone every had to dealt with a narcissist?

Since from the get go they don't think anything is wrong with them, and therefore will never make any attempt to change can they ever really be helped?

[WilliamMunny]

So here goes a thread to either discuss the challenges of dealing with mental health issues, or to work on strategies to overcome them if possible. Either stuff you are dealing with yourself or regarding other people that you encounter/interact with. 

My questions is, has anyone every had to dealt with a narcissist?

Since from the get go they don't think anything is wrong with them, and therefore will never make any attempt to change can they ever really be helped?

Unfortunately, in my experience (dealing with a deranged, narcissistic father-in-law), the answer is 'no.'

Obviously, every situation is different, but I feel like a traditional narcissist is hard-wired to be resistant to the idea of help.

[hunnus2000]

I have to deal with a father-in-law whom we all think is a narcissist but of course it's undiagnosed. When I first met him he would tell me stories of all his accomplishments and how he was a leader of the Boy Scouts and took them on many adventures. He was also a history buff and loved to read about Louis and Clark and bragged about how he gave lectures to college students when he wasn't a professor.

He also has a wife that tends to his every little needs and puts meals on the table 3 times a day while he sits his chair reading. He EXPECTS this.

Fast forward 24 years and we are pretty sure he has dementia (undiagnosed) and he can turn mean on a dime.

As far as his suspected narcissism, his entire life was all about him and what he wanted to do, never what his wife wanted and now that he is 90 and incontinent, all she does is take care of his messes. Now he was never a mean guy and was never a difficult person to deal, but lately.......

[Harmony]

My limited understanding of personality disorders (narcissism being one of them) is that they are typically the most difficult to treat.  The major mental health disorders - schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, anxiety and the like - are at least somewhat treatable with medication.  There is no medication for personality disorders that I am aware of.

And of course, you hit on the main reason why therapy typically doesn't work because the patient doesn't believe there is anything in need of treatment.

My way to deal with narcissists is to avoid them.

[KevShmev]

As a general rule, I am opposed to anyone taking meds for depression, anxiety, etc., as a girlfriend I had years ago was on Paxil for a bit and it f'd her up like you wouldn't believe.  It took her forever to ween herself off of it completely, as that kind of drug you just cannot stop taking cold turkey.  The medical community will of course swear by them because the docs and the pharm companies both make fat stacks off of getting humans everywhere addicted to those evil little pills, but you can flush them all down the toilet, as far as I am concerned.  Rant over...

[crazy climber dude]

Definitely hitting home for me. Two different people I am close to. Both female. One in my family. One dealing with periodic depression/suicidal thoughts.  The other suffering from seemingly constant depression/anxiety/child of narcissistic parent. She also has terrible allergies and multi day debilitating migraines. She hates any kind of medication, and so just powers through all of it. She's getting therapy, but it's hard to say how much it is helping her at this point.

 What's so interesting is how....if you didn't know them well, you would never suspect they are coping with those issues. Particularly the latter I described. She has a blue collar job, works her ass off, and maintains very high standards for herself. My respect for her is off the charts. When she is happy, she is an absolute delight. But those times are fewer and farther between it seems.

I feel powerless to help either with their specific issues, though I offer as much support as I can.

I'll tell what else it does...it makes your own petty little complaints seem that much more petty. So I try not to.

[jingle.boy]

Posting to come back to this later

Me - depression
Mrs.jingle - anxiety, panic attacks (rare), symptoms of BPD (undiagnosed), depression (the last 3 years)
Jingle.son - anxiety and panic attacks (few times a year)
Jingle.mom - mild/medium narcissism

Happy happy, joy joy. 

[Cool Chris]

Kev, I feel bad your ex had such a bad experience. For me when I was on my meds, it made a positive difference for many years. I should have done more and not relied on them solely for as long as I did, but I was eventually able to make enough changes in my life that allowed me to stop the medication. My mental health is not perfect and sound by any means, but that medication allowed me to get through some bad years and allow me to be where I am today.

[KevShmev]

Kev, I feel bad your ex had such a bad experience. For me when I was on my meds, it made a positive difference for many years. I should have done more and not relied on them solely for as long as I did, but I was eventually able to make enough changes in my life that allowed me to stop the medication. My mental health is not perfect and sound by any means, but that medication allowed me to get through some bad years and allow me to be where I am today.

I am glad they worked for you, seriously. 

Not like I am going to change my mind on this any time soon (or ever), but I don't doubt that they help some.  I have just seen and heard of too many instances when they did not (not just the one involving my ex).

[Stadler]

I always sort of cringe when I hear "narcissist"; it's like anything else.  It's not BAD, in and of itself, but has the potential to be bad.   There's a study, I posted it in one of the P/R threads a couple days ago, where almost ALL U.S. Presidents show some signs, to varying degrees, of narcissism. 

I don't want to go too deep, it's not fair to them, but someone who was a big part of my life for a long time has narcissistic traits, but is an extremely successful person, well-liked, and in many cases, fun to be around.  In many ways, including as a partner and a parent, they are accomplished; yet, in many other ways, they are shit.   It's not JUST the narcissism; it's the narcissism coupled with a crippling insecurity, and an intense fear of failure.  "Borderline personality disorder" is I think the proper term. 

And while yes, it's sometimes hard to break through this, but I find that once you get to the real root of the problem, AND (hopefully) find the things that DO matter to them, that it is possible for these people to get help.   And further, it depends on the therapist.  They are not miracle workers, but they are skilled, and if the therapist can identify the real root of the problem, there are often ways of getting to a point that they can be a more positive influence on the people around them.  The person I mentioned above got to that point when it became clear that they were hurting their kid.

On the other points:  I don't know of too many people for whom meds were the only answer and the complete answer.  I know a couple people for whom it was a help, but just as many for whom it was an impossible game to stay on top of. I think it depends on the person and the doctor.

And as for me, I am a therapy advocate.  I go, weekly, and am a better person for it.  Still have work to do, but it's like going to the gym for me (which I don't do).  I recommend it to anyone, with the caveat that a) you can't go into it looking for affirmation, and b) you can't just assume that "all therapists are the same".  Like any doctor, it does sometimes take time to find a good fit. But for me, mental wellbeing is one of the biggest problems facing our country, and I believe many of our more obvious problems - violence, our divisiveness - are directly tied to our (collective) mental health.  We are an EXCEEDINGLY insecure nation.  We seem to crave affirmation and acceptance in a way that has proven, imo, to be unhealthy.

[WilliamMunny]

I always sort of cringe when I hear "narcissist"; it's like anything else.  It's not BAD, in and of itself, but has the potential to be bad.   There's a study, I posted it in one of the P/R threads a couple days ago, where almost ALL U.S. Presidents show some signs, to varying degrees, of narcissism. 

I don't want to go too deep, it's not fair to them, but someone who was a big part of my life for a long time has narcissistic traits, but is an extremely successful person, well-liked, and in many cases, fun to be around.  In many ways, including as a partner and a parent, they are accomplished; yet, in many other ways, they are shit.   It's not JUST the narcissism; it's the narcissism coupled with a crippling insecurity, and an intense fear of failure.  "Borderline personality disorder" is I think the proper term. 

And while yes, it's sometimes hard to break through this, but I find that once you get to the real root of the problem, AND (hopefully) find the things that DO matter to them, that it is possible for these people to get help.   And further, it depends on the therapist.  They are not miracle workers, but they are skilled, and if the therapist can identify the real root of the problem, there are often ways of getting to a point that they can be a more positive influence on the people around them.  The person I mentioned above got to that point when it became clear that they were hurting their kid.

I think the biggest issue for most of us (including the OP) is not about getting through to someone, but rather, motivating them to 'want' to change.

It's a catch-22—a true narcissist couples a lack of empathy with an inflated sense of self-importance, which essentially makes them allergic to the idea that they need to change anything about thier behavior. After all, it's the key to their success!

In you example, Stadler, the fact that the person in question recognized that they were hurting their child is a big step that the narcissist in my life has yet to take. And even if he does eventually realize that he is hurting those around him, I truly don't think he will care, as he has little regard for the emotions of others.

[Stadler]

But all those things in your last paragraph were still true in my example.  Losing their partner, some of their family, and many of their friends was not enough to elicit change.  Substance abuse was not enough to elicit change.   Multiple affairs, and the fallout from same, was not enough to elicit change.   I'm not suggesting it's easy, but it does require sometimes Herculean reserves of patience and empathy.

[hefdaddy42]

I married into it.  Lots of people in my wife's family with all kinds of issues, ranging from anxiety (my wife) to bipolar disorder (her dad and one brother).  And my oldest daughter is also bipolar, among other things.

We've been through a lot over the years.  It's something that never goes away.

Of course medication isn't the only answer, but none of the members of our family that are on medication could be productive members of society, or have any kind of life whatsoever, without the medications they are on. 

[hunnus2000]

The thing about narcissists like Harmony said, is that that they don't think or even know there is a problem. They also have enablers, just look at the last psychopath president or even Putin.

My own F-In-Law has had and still has his share of enablers. We fear there is a dark secret that will go to his grave with him. We bite our tongues when relatives heap praises on him.

I think that mental health issues are THE most underdiagnosed along with over prescribed illness in the world today.

I also wonder if it has to do with our diet.....

[Stadler]

The thing about narcissists like Harmony said, is that that they don't think or even know there is a problem. They also have enablers, just look at the last psychopath president or even Putin.

My own F-In-Law has had and still has his share of enablers. We fear there is a dark secret that will go to his grave with him. We bite our tongues when relatives heap praises on him.

I think that mental health issues are THE most underdiagnosed along with over prescribed illness in the world today.

I also wonder if it has to do with our diet.....

But I want to repeat what I said; we need to be clear in our terminology and our definitions.  I'm not singling you out, but this seems to - SEEMS TO - make this mistake.  Being a narcissist in and of itself is not a problem. There's a fine line between being an "enabler" and a willing participant.  If I want to subsume my existence, my feelings, my needs to those of my partner, that's on me and stay the hell out of my life.  In my experience, it's when that narcissism is colored by something else that makes it detrimental if not dangerous for others to be around them.  Borderline personality disorder is that; the behavior transitions from "selfish" to abusive.

[jingle.boy]

Having/displaying narcissistic behaviours from time to time, I could agree*. That’s different than Narcissistic personality disorder, which is a problem - for the individual, and the people around them.

*- though I think there’s a difference between extreme confidence and a strong sense of self, capabilities, skills etc ... and narcissism.

[Adami]

I'm not gonna add much to this thread unless someone has any questions, but I will say that, from my experience as a psychologist, it's amazing how many ex's, in laws, bosses, and parents are borderline or narcissistic.

[jingle.boy]

I'm not gonna add much to this thread unless someone has any questions, but I will say that, from my experience as a psychologist, it's amazing how many ex's, in laws, bosses, and parents are borderline or narcissistic.

I diagnose too, probably. 

That’s why I always say that Mrs.jingle exhibits some of the symptoms of BPD. 

[Stadler]

I'm not gonna add much to this thread unless someone has any questions, but I will say that, from my experience as a psychologist, it's amazing how many ex's, in laws, bosses, and parents are borderline or narcissistic.

This is not far from what I was going for in my comments, you just put it a lot better than I did.  This time.    I see a lot of anecdotal evidence that people in general have a sort of tendency to view anyone that isn't agreeing with us or compromising with us as "selfish" or "narcissistic". Maybe I'm a more tolerant guy than most, but I don't see a problem with narcissism in and of itself.  Some of my heroes exhibit strong traits of narcissism.  It's that next level, like I said, where it moves from just selfish to "abusive". I know the person I was writing about above was well captured in the book "Walking On Eggshells", a book their kid was given by a therapist.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I'm not gonna add much to this thread unless someone has any questions

I've been thinking about something lately (somewhat related to Stadler's point): how important would you say the diagnosis is when working with someone? I've been of the assumption that it's more of a loose guideline with the main focus being on the person's individual thought patterns and behaviours, but I'd be interested in hearing a professional perspective.

[Skeever]

I have mild depression and general anxiety. My wife does too.
I coped with it more or less great until becoming a parent a few years ago. That,  and COVID, were a viscous one-two punch that just left me feeling more miserable than I'd ever felt in my life before. I've never seriously considered suicide, but there were many days where I felt it would not be so bad if that were my last, and many more days where I just was an awful person to be around due to anger and a quick fuse that seemed to always be getting quicker.

Finally I found a talk therapist, and things have gotten better and better. Slowly, but surely, I feel like the person I used to be again.

As a general rule, I am opposed to anyone taking meds for depression, anxiety, etc., as a girlfriend I had years ago was on Paxil for a bit and it f'd her up like you wouldn't believe.  It took her forever to ween herself off of it completely, as that kind of drug you just cannot stop taking cold turkey.  The medical community will of course swear by them because the docs and the pharm companies both make fat stacks off of getting humans everywhere addicted to those evil little pills, but you can flush them all down the toilet, as far as I am concerned.  Rant over...

This was honestly one of the reasons it took me so long to go to therapy. I didn't want to just be put on anti-depressants. Everyone I've ever known growing who deals with mental illness of some kind takes pills, with the results of this line of treatment not really being readily apparent to anyone who knew them.  However, I was surprised to learn that there are a large range of mental health services out there, in addition to psychiatry. The counselor I speak to now is more like a social worker, not even licensed to prescribe medication.

I think medication is more popular than counseling, though, for reasons that run contrary to this. A lot of people don't want to talk, and share their feelings. When I started talking to a friend about talk therapy, he called it "emotional daycare". It's not "manly" to go to talk therapy. But taking a pill is ingrained in our thinking as normal. "I've got something wrong with me; I take a pill and it goes away" is a much more clear cut answer for people than what a psychologist or social worker might suggest. 

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure that there are many who benefit from medication. But I feel as you do - I want to exhaust all other options before going to that.

[Harmony]

I'm not gonna add much to this thread unless someone has any questions

I've been thinking about something lately (somewhat related to Stadler's point): how important would you say the diagnosis is when working with someone? I've been of the assumption that it's more of a loose guideline with the main focus being on the person's individual thought patterns and behaviours, but I'd be interested in hearing a professional perspective.

I know you aren't asking me but I think it is extremely important to get an accurate diagnosis.  I have seen so many people, including some in my own family, be misdiagnosed and then wind up losing years of time on the wrong medication and focusing on the wrong treatment plan.  The problem is that many people are not offered or even if they are, don't take the time to get fully and correctly evaluated.  This process can take hours - many sessions - to move through, but IMO is well worth the time.  Because once a diagnosis - even a wrong diagnosis - gets placed into your medical record it stays with you forever.

A good friend of mine still carries a diagnosis of "somatization disorder."  She's had that in her medical record for YEARS.  Just recently she was diagnosed with a condition called Ehlers Danlos Syndrome which is a connective tissue disease that causes extreme pain and limited mobility.  For years she went to doctor after doctor who saw the "somatization disorder" in her chart and dismissed her very real pain and physical limitations as psychological based.  And she cannot get that diagnosis removed from her chart now that she has a "legitimate" disease causing her symptoms.  It is INFURIATING.

Another reason for proper diagnosis is - to be blunt - the ability for providers to bill insurance.  In the US private insurance is less likely to agree to pay to deal with someone's "thought and behavior patterns" but slap a diagnosis on them and they will cover it.

[Stadler]

I have mild depression and general anxiety. My wife does too.
I coped with it more or less great until becoming a parent a few years ago. That,  and COVID, were a viscous one-two punch that just left me feeling more miserable than I'd ever felt in my life before. I've never seriously considered suicide, but there were many days where I felt it would not be so bad if that were my last, and many more days where I just was an awful person to be around due to anger and a quick fuse that seemed to always be getting quicker.

Finally I found a talk therapist, and things have gotten better and better. Slowly, but surely, I feel like the person I used to be again.

As a general rule, I am opposed to anyone taking meds for depression, anxiety, etc., as a girlfriend I had years ago was on Paxil for a bit and it f'd her up like you wouldn't believe.  It took her forever to ween herself off of it completely, as that kind of drug you just cannot stop taking cold turkey.  The medical community will of course swear by them because the docs and the pharm companies both make fat stacks off of getting humans everywhere addicted to those evil little pills, but you can flush them all down the toilet, as far as I am concerned.  Rant over...

This was honestly one of the reasons it took me so long to go to therapy. I didn't want to just be put on anti-depressants. Everyone I've ever known growing who deals with mental illness of some kind takes pills, with the results of this line of treatment not really being readily apparent to anyone who knew them.  However, I was surprised to learn that there are a large range of mental health services out there, in addition to psychiatry. The counselor I speak to now is more like a social worker, not even licensed to prescribe medication.

I think medication is more popular than counseling, though, for reasons that run contrary to this. A lot of people don't want to talk, and share their feelings. When I started talking to a friend about talk therapy, he called it "emotional daycare". It's not "manly" to go to talk therapy. But taking a pill is ingrained in our thinking as normal. "I've got something wrong with me; I take a pill and it goes away" is a much more clear cut answer for people than what a psychologist or social worker might suggest. 

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure that there are many who benefit from medication. But I feel as you do - I want to exhaust all other options before going to that.

I write a lot here about mental wellness and therapy, and I'm very upfront about my dedication to what you call "talk" therapy.  And in a peaceful, be well sort of way, I tell your friend to fuck right off and stop talking about something he doesn't know the first thing about.   I'll give you daycare. Haha.   Look, the brain is an organ.  Your heart - another organ - hurts, you go to the doctor.   Your lungs - another organ - don't feel right, you go to the doctor.   In the 2020's, we're on a wellness kick, so we go to the doctor for our hearts and lungs BEFORE we have pain.  Same with your brain.    My life isn't perfect by any stretch, but I'm in a LOT better shape now than I was or I would be if I wasn't in therapy. 

I've never taken a psychopharmaceutical in my life, and I feel like a commitment to psychotherapy is a big part of that.  To your point, Skeever, it takes work, and it takes a level of honesty and humility that not a lot of people have (there's no place in effective psychotherapy for the sort of "It's my opinion, it's my truth and nothing you can do can make me change my mind" attitude that is so prevalent in society today).  But once you can get beyond that, these are (largely) people that are well-schooled, well-trained, and dedicated to your mental wellbeing. 

[Adami]

I'm not gonna add much to this thread unless someone has any questions

I've been thinking about something lately (somewhat related to Stadler's point): how important would you say the diagnosis is when working with someone? I've been of the assumption that it's more of a loose guideline with the main focus being on the person's individual thought patterns and behaviours, but I'd be interested in hearing a professional perspective.

Fantastic question, and the answer is that it totally depends on the context and the diagnosis.

Some diagnoses are EXTREMELY important to get right. You need to know the difference between schizophrenia and schizoaffective. You need to know the difference between bipolar II and major depression. You know to know which anxiety you're dealing with, or if it's OCD, or something else. Often because HOW you're treating them changes pretty drastically. There are tons of more examples, but those just a few off the top of my head. Lots of things can look very similar, and if you just focus on the symptoms, you might miss the point. Like someone seeming distracted. Is it ADHD? Is it an anxiety disorder? Is it OCD? Is it Bipolar? Is it ASD? I often compare it to like having a cough. A cough can mean you swallowed something wrong, or you have a dry throat, or you have a flu, or you have covid, or you have cancer, etc etc. You can't just see a cough and treat it in isolation. So the overall diagnosis can be very very important. And as Harmony said, insurance requires it. They won't pay money for you to work through existential problems. They won't pay money to talk about how your parents made you feel unloved. But they will pay money to help you deal with major depressive disorder, or generalized anxiety disorder, or PTSD, or even adjustment disorder. Because insurance likes things to be quantifiable (even if we therapists hate that). They want to know you have a specific problem that is readily defined and can be treated in a methodical way and that has an end goal that is attainable.

On the other hand, sometimes the diagnosis is meaningless. If someone comes to me because they are getting over a break up and need to work through some stuff, I don't really care if they have a specific diagnosis unless that diagnosis is crucial to informing what is happening. If your parents instilled a sense of feeling unwanted in you, there's not really a diagnosis for that, but it's VERY important to work through in therapy. Diagnoses are fantastic in some ways, but do not apply to a lot of reasons people need to come to therapy.

Hope that made sense. Happy to elaborate or answer whatever else.

Edit: And to address what happened to Harmony's friend, I always make sure that a physical cause is ruled out. If I even suspect for a second that the problem might have a medical cause, I need that person to deal with an MD and have it ruled out before I even try to deal with it psychologically. To not do so is unethical and harmful to the client. That said, sometimes we get it wrong. We're only human and sometimes we screw up. It sucks and we can try to do better but we'll never totally avoid it. Being misdiagnosed can be deadly and traumatizing but is not always avoidable.

[Skeever]

I write a lot here about mental wellness and therapy, and I'm very upfront about my dedication to what you call "talk" therapy.  And in a peaceful, be well sort of way, I tell your friend to fuck right off and stop talking about something he doesn't know the first thing about.

I would, but the results speak for themselves. He should be in therapy himself, with all the issues he has. No need for me to rub it in further 

[IDontNotDoThings]

Hope that made sense. Happy to elaborate or answer whatever else.

Thank you for the explanation.

[splent]

So here goes a thread to either discuss the challenges of dealing with mental health issues, or to work on strategies to overcome them if possible. Either stuff you are dealing with yourself or regarding other people that you encounter/interact with. 

My questions is, has anyone every had to dealt with a narcissist?

Since from the get go they don't think anything is wrong with them, and therefore will never make any attempt to change can they ever really be helped?

Yes. My mom is a full blown narcissist. People in my family shrug it off as “That’s just how she is” but that doesn’t change the fact that she says a LOT of hurtful things. I made a blanket for her for Christmas. Instead of saying “OMG THANK YOU” she pointed out immediately “I think you made a mistake” at a point where a thread was sticking out where I switched between yarn. It’s really out a strain on our relationship to the point where I don’t even want to talk to her but I can’t completely cut her out because the rest of my family will blame me and not her because they’re so enabling.

[Phoenix87x]

Yes. My mom is a full blown narcissist. People in my family shrug it off as “That’s just how she is” but that doesn’t change the fact that she says a LOT of hurtful things. I made a blanket for her for Christmas. Instead of saying “OMG THANK YOU” she pointed out immediately “I think you made a mistake” at a point where a thread was sticking out where I switched between yarn. It’s really out a strain on our relationship to the point where I don’t even want to talk to her but I can’t completely cut her out because the rest of my family will blame me and not her because they’re so enabling.

Sorry to hear that. I understand 100%.

My mom is also a narcissist and never showed me any love either as an infant, child or teenager. Being there for anyone else besides herself means nothing to her.

When we would meet new people, she would say to them "this is phoenix, he's going to be a rich Doctor and then I can retire and live at the beach house that he's going to buy me" and the people would look at me like "is she for real". Keep in mind, I had no interest in being a doctor at the time, but it didn't matter what I wanted to be. I existed only as a utility for her needs, not as a son.

When It got to the point where I got in trouble because she heard me say "I love you" to my grandmother when I could never say it to her and when she prevented me from seeing or talking to my uncle or Grandparents because they didn't bow down to her, that's when I said I was done.

Haven't spoken to her since the day I graduated high school and the next day I walked out of the house never looking back. I struggled with severe mental issues my entire adult life which I think I've finally been able to make peace with, but it all routes back to how she acted.

[King Postwhore]

Spence, that's just horrible.  My wife Lisa was verbally abused by her mom for so long that she stopped seeing her parents for 10 years.  She now controls what goes on with them and is more assertive.  She went to counseling and heard all the same things I was saying to her from a therapist but sometimes the person in this case, my wife, thought I was saying this to her to be supportive. It took someone out of the family and a professional to say the same things to help her get the courage to not take the toxic talk from her mom. 

I took the blame from her family but I was ok with it, because I was ok with battling people who were in the wrong.

[soupytwist]

Look, the brain is an organ.  Your heart - another organ - hurts, you go to the doctor.   Your lungs - another organ - don't feel right, you go to the doctor.

The heart, lungs are organs with a basic function that is understood and can be diagnosed when faulty.  There is no real way to know what’s is going on in another persons brain.

[chknptpie]

Mother in law is a narcissist with victim mentality. We have no contact with her anymore.
Sister is undiagnosed/untreated bipolar. We have no contact with her anymore.
Mom is medicated bipolar. It has taken me 37 years to work on a relationship with her and its currently in a good place.
I have anxiety
Husband deals with anxiety and depression and PTSD shit from work.

[Stadler]

Look, the brain is an organ.  Your heart - another organ - hurts, you go to the doctor.   Your lungs - another organ - don't feel right, you go to the doctor.

The heart, lungs are organs with a basic function that is understood and can be diagnosed when faulty.  There is no real way to know what’s is going on in another persons brain.

You and I don't, because we're idiots (and I say that with love).   For someone who is trained, and has the experience to deal with matters of the brain, it's still somewhat inexact, but there IS science there.  I've written this before (here) so I'm not responding to any one person here, but throughout this thread we've been sort of throwing around the word "narcissist" like it's some specific thing that we catch from a virus, but it's not necessarily bad, and it's not necessarily the root cause of things.   Someone in my life is a narcissist, but that's just the manifestation of something deeper.  She's still a narcissist in the strictest sense of the word, but she's gone through therapy and I give her credit for fixing some of the worst parts of her psyche, so the "bad stuff" isn't nearly as prevalent as it was.  A professional can wade through that, separate the wheat from the chaff, and start the road to healing.  That's what a doctor does, no?

[soupytwist]

Look, the brain is an organ.  Your heart - another organ - hurts, you go to the doctor.   Your lungs - another organ - don't feel right, you go to the doctor.

The heart, lungs are organs with a basic function that is understood and can be diagnosed when faulty.  There is no real way to know what’s is going on in another persons brain.

You and I don't, because we're idiots (and I say that with love).   For someone who is trained, and has the experience to deal with matters of the brain, it's still somewhat inexact, but there IS science there.  I've written this before (here) so I'm not responding to any one person here, but throughout this thread we've been sort of throwing around the word "narcissist" like it's some specific thing that we catch from a virus, but it's not necessarily bad, and it's not necessarily the root cause of things.   Someone in my life is a narcissist, but that's just the manifestation of something deeper.  She's still a narcissist in the strictest sense of the word, but she's gone through therapy and I give her credit for fixing some of the worst parts of her psyche, so the "bad stuff" isn't nearly as prevalent as it was.  A professional can wade through that, separate the wheat from the chaff, and start the road to healing.  That's what a doctor does, no?

I wrote a big reply to you,  but to be honest I not comfortable with what I wrote so I'm removing it - I'm not articulate enough to get my point across without it maybe causing offense, which is certainly not what I intend on such a delicate subject.

[Stadler]

Fair enough; send a PM if you like, and if you don't so be it.  I'm not attacking you or arguing with you, just having a conversation.  I do, though, want (for everyone else's benefit) to reinforce the complexity of many of these issues. In this day and age of social media, and the (relatively) recent trend of amateurs (not you) psychoanalyzing others (I'm thinking of all the various tweets psychoanalyzing Trump like he's spent time on their couch) we've become very lax in our treatment of other people's mental wellness situations.

[Phoenix87x]

Alrighty, so here goes a new one.

Anybody ever have to deal with anyone with Borderline personality disorder, aka BPD?

I don't think I know anyone personally, but after reading the symptoms I'm really starting to think I might have it     and all I can say is that I really feel bad for anyone that has had to put up with it or is rubbed the wrong way by it. I honest to god didn't even realize anything was out of the ordinary until like my late 20's and am now starting to zero in on these issues for what they actually are.

 And despite being aware of it, it can be very difficult to keep under control unfortunately. But one day at a time I guess.