Spotify

[Harmony]

So many of you probably have heard that Neil Young has pulled his music from Spotify to ?protest? their platforming of Joe Rogan and his covid misinformation.  Then Barry Manilow and now Joni Mitchell are now following suit.  I'm sure they will not miss the $5 a month or so they get from Spotify and will be ok economically speaking. 

Boomers leaving Spotify will likely not change their business practices, I realize.  That said, I have always thought Spotify was a shite company who ripped off its musicians and never paid them fairly for their art.  I have never given them a penny.  I also realize Spotify isn't the only streaming company guilty of this practice.

So what happens IF younger, more popular musicians begin to pull their music as well?  Do we see this as a possibility?  Would it alter your use of that platform if you use it?

Leaving the Rogan aspect aside, would you consider leaving Spotify (if you could...many are reporting they cannot cancel their accounts without pulling their credit card info) if you thought about how terrible they are at paying the musicians and artists we all know and love a fair price for their music?

[TAC]

We've had this discussion before..

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55590.msg2689322#msg2689322

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=57091.msg2840689#msg2840689

...where who gets paid what, and how much, through different eras and resources. It's pretty interesting.

[Harmony]

I actually did do a search before I posted and didn't see anything about artists leaving the platform.  Apologies if I missed it.

[Stadler]

I think for me the issue with all of this is the blurriness of the issues.  And at that point, it becomes moot for me.  Do do business with Spotify, or don't.  That's each artists call.   No, Taylor Swift or Neil Young are not likely sweating the loss of income, but others might.   This - the general issue, not this thread - seems an awful lot like it's really just an open forum for Spotify hate.  There's a thread here where we talked about streaming services not long ago, and I thought I understood from that that they - and those like them - are not the devils that many make them out to be; that the public won't pay Neil Young what he thinks he's entitled to is not Spotify's fault.  The reality is that despite our romantic notions, music is a commodity.  Nothing Neil Young or Spotify will do will change that. 

I have about 35,000 songs on my iPod, and I'd guess about 34,750 are legit, official versions released by the artist or a record company (the remainder are either bootlegs that don't have an official release, or things I ripped from official releases).  With my current buying patterns, I'd guess about 20% of my purchases actually put money in the artists' hands at this point.  I buy from Neal Morse, I buy from Mike Portnoy, I buy from Marillion and Fish, I buy from the Grateful Dead.  The rest of my purchases are used, through eBay or Discogs or pawn shops, and to my reckoning, those artists aren't seeing dime one from my transactions, yet everything I am doing is perfectly legal and above board.  I just refuse to pay $15 or $20 for something I can get for anywhere from $1 to $10 depending.  I don't do that because of Spotify.  I do that because artists have repeatedly failed to deliver what I'm looking for as a consumer.  I don't need $200 box sets with three formats and a bunch of key chains and glossy photos.  SELL ME THE MUSIC.  Neal and Mike seem to get it, and seem to have found a sweet spot.  Rush lost me with the deluxe box sets. 

As for Joe Rogan, Neil can bleat all he wants about "I'm not against free speech, and I'm not for censorship", but that's what this is, IF the reasoning is as he claims.  Neil doesn't like the message Rogan is sending and is using his leverage to (try to) silence him.  Sorry, there is room in a free democracy for all points of view, even when those points of view are predicated on false information.  It's the burden of the rest of us to make the effort to prove Rogan wrong, not bully him into silence (and, as a presumably unintended consequence, thus embolden those that happen to agree with him).  There is no exception to free speech to "protect the stupid".  It's part of the uneasy give and take that freedom requires.

[TAC]

I actually did do a search before I posted and didn't see anything about artists leaving the platform.  Apologies if I missed it.

No, nothing about artists leaving the platform, but you had mentioned how much (or little) they were paid, and there is a lot of talk about it in those threads. Ariich even had graphs!


As far as artists leaving out of protest, I saw the Neil Young thing. I didn't get too chuffed about it. He's doing it out of what he feels is principled, so good for him.

Is Covid misinformation the wall where  Neil Young wants to mark his spot? I hardly think that's the worst thing being broadcast on Spotify. But apparently it's personal to him I guess.

[Harmony]

I think for me the issue with all of this is the blurriness of the issues.  And at that point, it becomes moot for me.  Do do business with Spotify, or don't.  That's each artists call.   No, Taylor Swift or Neil Young are not likely sweating the loss of income, but others might.   This - the general issue, not this thread - seems an awful lot like it's really just an open forum for Spotify hate.  There's a thread here where we talked about streaming services not long ago, and I thought I understood from that that they - and those like them - are not the devils that many make them out to be; that the public won't pay Neil Young what he thinks he's entitled to is not Spotify's fault.  The reality is that despite our romantic notions, music is a commodity.  Nothing Neil Young or Spotify will do will change that. 

I have about 35,000 songs on my iPod, and I'd guess about 34,750 are legit, official versions released by the artist or a record company (the remainder are either bootlegs that don't have an official release, or things I ripped from official releases).  With my current buying patterns, I'd guess about 20% of my purchases actually put money in the artists' hands at this point.  I buy from Neal Morse, I buy from Mike Portnoy, I buy from Marillion and Fish, I buy from the Grateful Dead.  The rest of my purchases are used, through eBay or Discogs or pawn shops, and to my reckoning, those artists aren't seeing dime one from my transactions, yet everything I am doing is perfectly legal and above board.  I just refuse to pay $15 or $20 for something I can get for anywhere from $1 to $10 depending.  I don't do that because of Spotify.  I do that because artists have repeatedly failed to deliver what I'm looking for as a consumer.  I don't need $200 box sets with three formats and a bunch of key chains and glossy photos.  SELL ME THE MUSIC.  Neal and Mike seem to get it, and seem to have found a sweet spot.  Rush lost me with the deluxe box sets. 

As for Joe Rogan, Neil can bleat all he wants about "I'm not against free speech, and I'm not for censorship", but that's what this is, IF the reasoning is as he claims.  Neil doesn't like the message Rogan is sending and is using his leverage to (try to) silence him. Sorry, there is room in a free democracy for all points of view, even when those points of view are predicated on false information.  It's the burden of the rest of us to make the effort to prove Rogan wrong, not bully him into silence (and, as a presumably unintended consequence, thus embolden those that happen to agree with him).  There is no exception to free speech to "protect the stupid".  It's part of the uneasy give and take that freedom requires.

I can see why you (and others) say that (bolded above) but Neil has to be aware that ultimately he has no control over Spotify and so took what action he could by taking his music off the site.  Which is his prerogative to do.  Just as it is Spotify's prerogative to keep Rogan on.

I don't really see this as a "free speech" issue when all parties are free to take whatever action they feel is best for their business.

[Harmony]

I actually did do a search before I posted and didn't see anything about artists leaving the platform.  Apologies if I missed it.

No, nothing about artists leaving the platform, but you had mentioned how much (or little) they were paid, and there is a lot of talk about it in those threads. Ariich even had graphs!


As far as artists leaving out of protest, I saw the Neil Young thing. I didn't get too chuffed about it. He's doing it out of what he feels is principled, so good for him.

Is Covid misinformation the wall where  Neil Young wants to mark his spot? I hardly think that's the worst thing being broadcast on Spotify. But apparently it's personal to him I guess.

No I appreciate the links to other threads.  And who doesn't like graphs!  I will look those threads over for sure - thanks.

And yes, it is a personal thing for Neil (and Joni) as they both as children had polio before vaccines were available.

[KevShmev]

Barry Manilow already refuted the report that he was pulling his music from Spotify, but the Neil Young and Joni Mitchell ones are legit.

I am not fan of Spotify (never been on there, never will) or Rogan, but I suspect it would take one of the big dogs of the current musical landscape to get on board with this for them to really take notice, or for a lot more artists to follow suit, which is very possible given the "monkey see, monkey do" grandstanding of artists/celebs when it comes to this kind of thing.

[Stadler]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but the message is mixed.  I have no real beef with Neil Young; I was a fan before, and will still be a fan (his new album is stellar).   I just see a lot of chatter - including from him - around his actions that, as I said above, blur the issues.   

He initially said that Spotify could "have Rogan or Young.  Not both." which clearly seems to indicate that he's trying to force Spotify to make a decision.  Further, he said it was about COVID/misinformation/vacccines:  “I am doing this because Spotify is spreading fake information about vaccines — potentially causing death to those who believe the disinformation being spread by them".

But then he pulled that letter and later said he was "strongly opposed to censorship and that "private companies have the right to choose what they profit from, just as I can choose not to have my music support a platform that disseminates harmful information.”"  Seems to be more middle ground, and more in line with what you're saying.  This is a point of view I wholeheartedly agree with and support.  You do you, I'll do me, and we can both coexist. 

He THEN said it was in part about the sound.  Now, Neil is famous for this; he even "started" (in quotes because I don't know the full extent of his involvement) a lossless music "system" (in quotes for lack of a better word) called PONO, that has had a mixed success rate.  But he's long advocated against these cheaper sounding music delivery systems.  I'm pretty sure his Archive box sets aren't even available on CD, only DVD and Blu-ray, for quality purposes (I think they were initially released on DVD/Blu-ray and later made available on CD, I'm not sure).  He said "Amazon, Apple Music, and Qobuz deliver up to 100 percent of the music [quality] today and it sounds a lot better [than] the shitty degraded and neutered sound of Spotify,” he says, adding that “if you support Spotify, you are destroying an art form.” Young implores his fans to “go to a new place that truly cares about music quality.” (Same source as above).

I mean, Neil's rebellious nature is well-established over 50 years of being on the fringe of the establishment.  He's an artist that has more UNRELEASED SCRAPPED records than many others have RELEASED.   So I get it.  But it's hard sometimes to keep the arguments straight. It's no doubt all of those, because things aren't always simple; but I would have hoped Neil would have a better understanding of human nature at this point, that only soundbites and snippets would be latched onto.  Then again, maybe he doesn't care.

[Stadler]

Barry Manilow already refuted the report that he was pulling his music from Spotify, but the Neil Young and Joni Mitchell ones are legit.

I am not fan of Spotify (never been on there, never will) or Rogan, but I suspect it would take one of the big dogs of the current musical landscape to get on board with this for them to really take notice, or for a lot more artists to follow suit, which is very possible given the "monkey see, monkey do" grandstanding of artists/celebs when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'm not a fan either; I use Spotify for one reason and one reason only:  sending playlists for roulettes.  But honestly, as much of a Neil Young fan as I am (and I am; you should all check out his interview with Dan Rather on "The Big Interview") if Spotify removes Rogan over this I'm probably just as likely to never use them again.  Yes, they can make their own decisions, but I don't like the bullying.   There's room in this world for all points of view, and if you think Rogan's is wrong, prove it, don't silence it.

[KevShmev]

Barry Manilow already refuted the report that he was pulling his music from Spotify, but the Neil Young and Joni Mitchell ones are legit.

I am not fan of Spotify (never been on there, never will) or Rogan, but I suspect it would take one of the big dogs of the current musical landscape to get on board with this for them to really take notice, or for a lot more artists to follow suit, which is very possible given the "monkey see, monkey do" grandstanding of artists/celebs when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'm not a fan either; I use Spotify for one reason and one reason only:  sending playlists for roulettes.  But honestly, as much of a Neil Young fan as I am (and I am; you should all check out his interview with Dan Rather on "The Big Interview") if Spotify removes Rogan over this I'm probably just as likely to never use them again.  Yes, they can make their own decisions, but I don't like the bullying.   There's room in this world for all points of view, and if you think Rogan's is wrong, prove it, don't silence it.

Never been a big fan of Young, but I do like some of his songs quite a bit.

Honestly, this feels like grandstanding on his part as well simply because I cannot imagine he makes that much off of Spotify, so he is taking this "moral" stance when he has very little to lose.  Contrast that to our fellow favorite Taylor Swift who, arguably at the height of her popularity, pulled her material off Spotify for like two years until they caved to her wishes that artists be paid more by Spotify.  She used her power for the greater good.  Young doing this now to try and get them to remove someone who with whom he disagrees feels like him using his power to, like you said, bully Spotify into silencing someone.

[Ben_Jamin]

I for one find it damn hilarious because Spotify called Neil Young's bluff.

There's also plenty of artists who do not have their music on Spotify for various reasons. Neal Morse has his own Waterfall service for crying out loud.

If Neil really wanted to take a stand against Spotify, why not start your own service like Neal.

Rogans podcasts are excellent, and the conversations are very dependent on the guests. For one, the Carrot Top episode was fantastic, especially when he talked about the shit he gets and stuff like that.

[Harmony]

I do also find it a tad ironic that NY is seen by so many others as championing science in his decision here.  He is notoriously anti GMO and yet covid vaccines use a genetically-engineered virus.  Young is also diabetic and insulin also uses genetic engineering.

Down is up and up is down.   

[Kwyjibo]

My problem is, that spotify pays Joe Rogan a shitload of money to spread his shit. Reportedly he has a 100 million dollar deal. So they not only tolerate his podcast, they actively support it.

And in this light, I can see some merit to Youngs actions.

And another question is, why can they pay him so much and other artists get only a couple of cents?

[Ben_Jamin]

My problem is, that spotify pays Joe Rogan a shitload of money to spread his shit. Reportedly he has a 100 million dollar deal. So they not only tolerate his podcast, they actively support it.

And in this light, I can see some merit to Youngs actions.

And another question is, why can they pay him so much and other artists get only a couple of cents?

Contracts. He more than likely signed a deal with Spotify for that much so he can broadcast his podcast on their service for a set amount of time. His podcast is also a video podcast. If you use Spotify on your computer, you can see the video of the podcasts.

I found this article...https://www.imore.com/joe-rogan-experience-leaving-apple-podcasts-spotify

Spotify has been aggressively expanding into the Podcast industry. Between a redesign of its app and its acquisition of popular podcast creation software Anchor, the company has solidified itself as a major player in the space.

Today, the company announced that it has signed an exclusive deal with one of the podcasting community's longest-running shows: The Joe Rogan Experience. In a blog post on the company's website, Spotify says that they have signed a "multi-year exclusive licensing deal" with the popular interviewer/commentator.

[KevShmev]

My problem is, that spotify pays Joe Rogan a shitload of money to spread his shit. Reportedly he has a 100 million dollar deal. So they not only tolerate his podcast, they actively support it.

And in this light, I can see some merit to Youngs actions.

And another question is, why can they pay him so much and other artists get only a couple of cents?

I am sure others can break it down on a more micro level than I can, but the old adage is, you are worth what someone is willing to pay you.  I am not a podcast guy, but they are all the rage now, and if you have a hugely popular one, which Rogan apparently does, then someone is going to pay you a lot of money.

Right or wrong, artists just get paid very little now by streaming sites for their work, which is why we are seeing many artists struggling since the pandemic started (and some bands go belly up), as it is hard to maintain when you cannot tour and you get very little from streaming and the tiny amount of CD and vinyl sales you manage to muster (for 99.999% of the artists out there).

[Setlist Scotty]

I've found this whole thing to be a bit amusing, but quite frankly I don't care one way or the other.

Speaking of grandstanding, something that I saw brought up by a friend on Facebook is the question of whether NY might be doing this to raise his profile and draw attention to himself. I don't know much about him, and he does seem to strike me as someone who stands up for the principles that he believes in, but could it be that part of this is merely to make headlines and draw attention, too?

[Ben_Jamin]

My problem is, that spotify pays Joe Rogan a shitload of money to spread his shit. Reportedly he has a 100 million dollar deal. So they not only tolerate his podcast, they actively support it.

And in this light, I can see some merit to Youngs actions.

And another question is, why can they pay him so much and other artists get only a couple of cents?

I am sure others can break it down on a more micro level than I can, but the old adage is, you are worth what someone is willing to pay you.  I am not a podcast guy, but they are all the rage now, and if you have a hugely popular one, which Rogan apparently does, then someone is going to pay you a lot of money.

Right or wrong, artists just get paid very little now by streaming sites for their work, which is why we are seeing many artists struggling since the pandemic started (and some bands go belly up), as it is hard to maintain when you cannot tour and you get very little from streaming and the tiny amount of CD and vinyl sales you manage to muster (for 99.999% of the artists out there).

That issue is not entirely Spotify's fault. The issue is the music business is very reliant on the consumer purchasing their product which is Music. It's an issue when the consumer base doesn't want to spend money on your product, and would rather get it for free. Hence, enter the Metallica and Napster situation.

Streaming platforms are a way for the artists to get more known so the consumer can go out and possibly buy the cd, merch, or better yet go see a live show.

Even at that, you got people not even wanting to go see the band because the setlist sucks, or they are not playing their favorite song. Why not just go support the band and enjoy them regardless of which songs they play from their catalog.

This is also why Musicians are releasing these box set packages to attract consumers to buy their product, even by including various limited items.

This reason is why I personally love Steven Wilson's The Future Bites album. Perfect satire about this consumerism, and it's relationship within the music world. Which is a big reason I find the inclusion of Elton John and his contribution damn hilarious. 

[Architeuthis]

I've never listened to anything from spotify at all.  I listen to physical media only.  If I hear about a good band that I don't know about, I might check them out on YouTube.  If I really like the music, I'll order the cd or record or perhaps a live dvd.   

[TAC]

I've never listened to anything from spotify at all.  I listen to physical media only.  If I hear about a good band that I don't know about, I might check them out on YouTube.  If I really like the music, I'll order the cd or record or perhaps a live dvd.

What's the difference between checking out a band on youtube or checking out a band on Spotify?

[lonestar]

Eh, Neil tried to make a stand, and Spotify called him on it. Hard to complain about the end results of the free market. I like the service, I'll continue to use it. (pretty much vested in it now since I've ditched my physical collection aside from signed and rare stuff, I don't even have a cd player anymore)

[Grappler]

https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/music/spotify-loses-4-billion-in-market-value-following-neil-young-controversy

This is the goal - Spotify is losing stock value (just read a minute ago, they are down 25% in January 2022 alone).

The article also mentions that Rogan has 11 million listeners while Neil Young has 6 million, which is why they haven't dropped Rogan.   

Finally, this seems to be very personal for Neil Young, as he had polio years before a vaccine was available.  He is very pro-vaccine as a result and his issues with Spotify do not seem to be based on the politicization of covid, but the true effect of the propagation of misinformation.

[lonestar]

https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/music/spotify-loses-4-billion-in-market-value-following-neil-young-controversy

This is the goal - Spotify is losing stock value (just read a minute ago, they are down 25% in January 2022 alone).

The article also mentions that Rogan has 11 million listeners while Neil Young has 6 million, which is why they haven't dropped Rogan.   

Finally, this seems to be very personal for Neil Young, as he had polio years before a vaccine was available.  He is very pro-vaccine as a result and his issues with Spotify do not seem to be based on the politicization of covid, but the true effect of the propagation of misinformation.

Makes you wonder what the hit would've been if they'd dumped Rogan instead.

[TAC]

https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/music/spotify-loses-4-billion-in-market-value-following-neil-young-controversy

This is the goal - Spotify is losing stock value (just read a minute ago, they are down 25% in January 2022 alone).

My 401K is down this month too, and I don't invest in Spotify. Consider the source on this. The San Fransisco Chronicle. I didn't realize CNN printed a newspaper.

[gazinwales]

I've never listened to anything from spotify at all.  I listen to physical media only.  If I hear about a good band that I don't know about, I might check them out on YouTube.  If I really like the music, I'll order the cd or record or perhaps a live dvd.

What's the difference between checking out a band on youtube or checking out a band on Spotify?

Spotify is a viable substitute for buying physical product, while YT is just for checking out something before buy a CD/LP.
All the kids I work with use Spotify (free version) and think I'm nuts for paying for music.

[TAC]

Spotify is a viable substitute for buying physical product, while YT is just for checking out something before buy a CD/LP.

Spotify can serve both purposes, as can youtube. I really don't see a difference.

[Ben_Jamin]

Spotify is a viable substitute for buying physical product, while YT is just for checking out something before buy a CD/LP.

Spotify can serve both purposes, as can youtube. I really don't see a difference.

With Youtube, whether the band sees any ad revenue is up to if the consumer views the song on the bands official Youtube page. There are many other profiles that upload the songs and many people click those. Especially now that Youtube decided to place their ads smack dab in the middle of a song, which is the dumbest thing ever, as people will search for the other non-official pages for one that doesn't play ads in the middle of an epic solo.

But I honestly do not see a difference either.

I actually use Spotify to listen to famous bands albums that are not that popular such as Kiss - The Elder, or the various Black Sabbath albums such as the Tony Martin era.

[Cool Chris]

KInda off topic... but who the hell is Joe Rogan that makes him so popular? I have no idea who he is, other that a dude who has an apparently popular podcast.

[Harmony]

KInda off topic... but who the hell is Joe Rogan that makes him so popular? I have no idea who he is, other that a dude who has an apparently popular podcast.

Interestingly, I'm seeing posts on Twitter asking who the hell Neil Young is.   

[Cool Chris]

 

I saw NY in the thread a couple times and wondered why people were talking about New York.

[HOF]

KInda off topic... but who the hell is Joe Rogan that makes him so popular? I have no idea who he is, other that a dude who has an apparently popular podcast.

If you ever saw the 90s sitcom News Radio, Joe Rogan played the station's tech guy. His character was a grade A moron. He wasn't acting though. 

[Ben_Jamin]

KInda off topic... but who the hell is Joe Rogan that makes him so popular? I have no idea who he is, other that a dude who has an apparently popular podcast.

You answered your own question. Apparently, his podcast is good enough to draw in enough views to become one of the most popular podcasts, to the point that Spotify gave him a deal.

Here's a clip from his episode with Carrot Top...

https://youtu.be/PbS9nSH3mqM

[Harmony]

Look, I know it's difficult but can we put the Covid conspiracy theories and Nazi comparisons in the P&R section please?  There is an entire thread devoted to that topic there.  Or at least use the one in the general forum (if the mods tolerate it)?

K-thx

[jingle.boy]

https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/music/spotify-loses-4-billion-in-market-value-following-neil-young-controversy

This is the goal - Spotify is losing stock value (just read a minute ago, they are down 25% in January 2022 alone).

The article also mentions that Rogan has 11 million listeners while Neil Young has 6 million, which is why they haven't dropped Rogan.   

My sense is there's a big difference between these two kinds of listeners - a good portion of Rogan's would likely leave Spotify if he left Spotify for another platform (ie, the primary reason they are Spotify users is because of the JRE - *that's* the reason Spotify pays him $100M - these are Rogan's customers ... not Spotify's.  Spotify is just a platform for Rogan).  On the other hand, I suspect the 6M NY listeners listen to a lot of shit, and most will remain Spotify users even without Young.  Those listeners are Spotify customers, not NY customers.

[ariich]

I've deleted all the derailing nonsense about COVID conspiracy theories. There is plenty of room for that in the political & religious board.

The subject of this thread could not be clearer from the OP.

If certain individuals try to derail this thread again they can look forward to a week off.