Live album bullshit thread!!!

[The Letter M]

What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.

Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?

-Marc.

[Glasser]

I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.

Doesn't this happen a lot anyway?

Yes. All I'm saying is that instead of re-recording parts,  find another version from the tour.

[El Barto]

What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.

Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?

-Marc.

How a band copes with such a thing is a part of the show. Steven Wilson breaking a string in Trains makes that rendition unique. I won't necessarily fault a band if they want to fix it, depending on the severity, but I'd more than likely find the flawed version more interesting. Not to mention that often times that context makes a performance far better.

[Glasser]

What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.

Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?

-Marc.

How a band copes with such a thing is a part of the show. Steven Wilson breaking a string in Trains makes that rendition unique. I won't necessarily fault a band if they want to fix it, depending on the severity, but I'd more than likely find the flawed version more interesting. Not to mention that often times that context makes a performance far better.

Exactly! That’s what captures the live essence, energy, and human element, mistakes, malfunctions. If we want to hear perfect versions, put the album on.

[Adami]

I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.

I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.

[wolfking]

I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.

Doesn't this happen a lot anyway?

Yes. All I'm saying is that instead of re-recording parts,  find another version from the tour.

I can get on board with that.

[hefdaddy42]

I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.

I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.

You're a weird motherfucker.

I love you so much.

[The Letter M]

I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.

Doesn't this happen a lot anyway?

Yes. All I'm saying is that instead of re-recording parts,  find another version from the tour.

I can get on board with that.

The thing with the live compilation format is that, for the most part, it ruins the illusion of being a single concert, especially when you shootouts to multiple cities on the tour in a single album.

I'm sure that doesn't bother some folks, but there are definitely fans who would prefer a live album come from a single show, to capture a singular performance from one night. I guess that's the difference between something like Rush's Exit...Stage Left and Rush In Rio, wherein the former was compiled from two tours with some of the best takes of those songs from those tours, while the latter is from the last night of their Vapor Traila tour, and the album captures the whole show as a representation of that tour, warts and all. I don't think RIR has (m)any overdubs, and it's infamous for keeping as much crowd noise and audience participation as possible, sometimes almost as equal to the band's levels! For some this may be the optimal way a live album should sound, with the audience in the mix, because what else sets it apart from a studio recording?

I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.

I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.

Isn't that how most studio albums are recorded these days? One instrument at a time?

-Marc.

[jammindude]

Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.

In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.

[The Letter M]

Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.

In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.

Fair enough. I just recall it being from two separate tours and at least two separate shows. It's definitely how a lot of prog live albums were done back then, like Yessongs, Seconds Out, Two For The Show  etc. Nowadays they all tend to be from single shows, and I'm not sure if that's better or worse when it comes to needing/wanting to do overdubs in post to make the concert a marketable live album.

-Marc.

[darkshade]

Also, more annoying to me than overdubs that I can't even discern is piped in crowd noise.

The mics recording what's happening on stage doesn't pick up a lot of audience noise. Straight sound board recordings often sound like the band is playing to an empty venue until the song is over, and then you only hear some faint hollering and whistling. If a band is recording for a live album, they'll have mics facing the audience, recording them to be mixed in later. It's up to the producers to not over do it and not have the noise overpower the music.

[Lowdz]

As a huge fan of those classic 70s “live” albums, I don’t have any strong thoughts on touching them up. They all sounded far better and more alive than the studio albums ever did.

Now, live albums just don’t sound live.

My biggest bugbear is live DVDs, which I’m more likely to reach for now than a live album, when the action and sound don’t match up. Absolutely kills it for me.

[pg1067]

while the latter is from the last night of their Vapor Traila tour, and the album captures the whole show as a representation of that tour, warts and all. I don't think RIR has (m)any overdubs, and it's infamous for keeping as much crowd noise and audience participation as possible, sometimes almost as equal to the band's levels!

I gotta say that the audience "singing" YYZ might have been my favorite moment from any live album/DVD in the last 30 years.

Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.

In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.

That's what makes it seem so mish-mashed, as I noted this morning, with a song from the middle of the set leading off the album and then jumping around in the set.  At least LVS was, in fact, the last song.

As far as Live After Death, it's REALLY hard to tell that the audio came from different shows (and the video from two of the four shows).  Also, sides 1-3 represent the complete set list (except for the Murray/Smith guitar solo and the last encore, Sanctuary, the latter of which shows up on the re-release).  Glad you mentioned this one because I need to make sure I bought one of the re-releases at some point because the original CD only included sides 1-3.

[bosk1]

Klaus Meine naming 4 or 5 different cities on World Wide Live never took me out of the moment at all.    But kidding aside, that album is an interesting one where it is clearly a compilation of different nights on the tour, and you are even told in the album sleeve which song is from where.  But it is mixed as if it were one show.  And, honestly, it feels like a single show.  It is really well done, IMO.  The fact that there is a mixing of different shows, there is obviously fake crowd noise to make the crowd noise levels sound the same, and there is obvious post-production doesn't bother me one bit.

And that brings me to my general take on the topic, which is:  As long as it sounds good, I really don't care. 

[KevShmev]

As a huge fan of those classic 70s “live” albums, I don’t have any strong thoughts on touching them up. They all sounded far better and more alive than the studio albums ever did.

Now, live albums just don’t sound live.

My biggest bugbear is live DVDs, which I’m more likely to reach for now than a live album, when the action and sound don’t match up. Absolutely kills it for me.

Along these lines, while there are exceptions, it feels like a lot of newer live albums are mixed to make the crowd noise as low as possible.  I could name a few where you wouldn't even know it was live if not for the clapping at the beginning and/or end of the song.  Not saying I want the crowd noise to overpower the music, but hearing none (or almost none) just zaps it of that live feel.

What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.

Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?

Well, an artist who can do whatever they want with it, as it it their live release and their music, so of course they are "allowed" to do it, but it's not really a live performance if they fix too much of it.  It's just not.  As has been said before, if we want perfect versions, that is what the studio albums are for. 

[Setlist Scotty]

Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.

The problem is that not only does it sound horrible, but it appears to be a mish-mash because of all the silly (and completely unnecessary) fade ins and fade outs and rearranging of the tracks. Had they made it sound like one complete performance and had it not been so doctored up in post-production to suck all the life out of it, I'm sure I would have loved it much more. After all, even AtWaS is compiled from their 3-night stand at Massey Hall, and that is one of my favorite live Rush albums. And the first 2 CDs from Different Stages are from all over, although you wouldn't really know it unless you looked at the credits. My only bone to pick with DS is that I am not a fan of mixing tracks from multiple tours.
 
 

In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.

Sure, but LAD is comparable to AtWaS - it comes off as sounding like it's one performance.
 
 

It's definitely how a lot of prog live albums were done back then, like Yessongs, Seconds Out, Two For The Show  etc. Nowadays they all tend to be from single shows, and I'm not sure if that's better or worse when it comes to needing/wanting to do overdubs in post to make the concert a marketable live album.

I like what Rush did for (I believe) both ASoH and DS: if they felt the need to fix a part, they flew in that instrument from another performance at another live show, thereby still keeping it live, just like what Glasser has suggested in one of his posts.
 
 

while the latter is from the last night of their Vapor Traila tour, and the album captures the whole show as a representation of that tour, warts and all. I don't think RIR has (m)any overdubs, and it's infamous for keeping as much crowd noise and audience participation as possible, sometimes almost as equal to the band's levels!

I gotta say that the audience "singing" YYZ might have been my favorite moment from any live album/DVD in the last 30 years.

Amen! That is definitely an example where keeping the audience noise higher works in favor of the live album.

While I'm guessing I'm in the minority, I will always have a soft spot for Grace Under Pressure Live. The audience noise is higher in the mix, but that all performance to me feels sooooo alive. Part of it may be because it was the first time I ever saw my (then) favorite band on TV before I ever started seeing concerts.

[TAC]

As a huge fan of those classic 70s “live” albums, I don’t have any strong thoughts on touching them up. They all sounded far better and more alive than the studio albums ever did.

I think mixing had a lot to do with it. Ron Nevison did a great job on Strangers In The Night as he very neatly mixed in two songs that weren't even played on that tour.

I compare that to the god awful drop in of Southbound from Thin Lizzy's Live And Dangerous, or Hard Luck Woman (and to a lesser extent Tomorrow And Tonight) on KISS Alive II.

Klaus Meine naming 4 or 5 different cities on World Wide Live never took me out of the moment at all.    But kidding aside, that album is an interesting one where it is clearly a compilation of different nights on the tour, and you are even told in the album sleeve which song is from where.  But it is mixed as if it were one show.  And, honestly, it feels like a single show.  It is really well done, IMO.  The fact that there is a mixing of different shows, there is obviously fake crowd noise to make the crowd noise levels sound the same, and there is obvious post-production doesn't bother me one bit.

And that brings me to my general take on the topic, which is:  As long as it sounds good, I really don't care. 

I agree with the bolded. That's why I really still love KISS Alive or Unleashed In The East. They still have a sound that at least leans live.

I must say though that I think Worldwide Live is....oof. I really don't like how it sounds. It's been a while, but the last time I listened to it, I couldn't finish it. I muchly prefer Tokyo Tapes.

[KevShmev]

I agree about fade ins and fade outs on live albums...a big no-no.  I still love Styx's Return to Paradise, but why they felt the need to fade in and fade out every single song is totally baffling.

[Glasser]

If you have ever heard DT bootleg Lost In The Sky? During Only A Matter Of Time the audio seamlessly goes from soundboard to audience recording at the solo section. Not sure why.

[jammindude]

I also think the fade in/outs bring things down a bit, but there are certain performances on ESL that give it a pass.

Side 3 is a continuous piece of music…and possibly one of the greatest “sides” of a prog live album in music history. That particular version of YYZ remains the Professor’s most recognized drum solo of his entire career. And Jacob’s Ladder and La Villa particularly shine. So ya, that’s why that album remains a favorite in spite of its mixing flaws.

[MirrorMask]

I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.

I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.

Blind Guardian actually did that for their "Live" album. (No, I'm not implying the album wasn't live, Live is the actual title of the live album. Glad they didn't name the following studio record "Studio Album"  )

[Setlist Scotty]

If you have ever heard DT bootleg Lost In The Sky? During Only A Matter Of Time the audio seamlessly goes from soundboard to audience recording at the solo section. Not sure why.

That always bummed me out about that bootleg - especially during *that* part of the show. I don't know the reason why, but I would assume it was because something happened to the soundboard recording at that point, and so they patched in an audience source instead of having an incomplete show.

[Setlist Scotty]

BTW, I just came across an interview with JL from 1999, and at the end the interviewer asked JL to give his thoughts about each DT release up until that time. His comments for OiaL give us a little more idea of how much touching up there was:

Well, I thought it was an exciting evening. I had a lot of fun with it. We did three hours of music in one night. An hour and a half, then a 15 minute intermission, then back on for another hour and a half. There were technical problems, but I usually don't have to deal with them unless my microphone cuts out (laughs). I know there were problems with the keyboards, and the guitar was cacking here, there, and everywhere and some of those things had to be mended or fixed because it was just unacceptable. But I think what I really like about that album is it really is a face-value double live album. There is no doctoring here, there, and everywhere, unlike what you hear a lot in today's musical environment. Because if you ever see any of those bands and then hear the live album, you go "uh-uh, there's no way."

Here's the link:
https://www.hardradio.com/hr3.html?https://www.hardradio.com/views/dt1.php3
(located on page 7)

[ZirconBlue]

OK, but what about fake live albums, like Type O Negative's Origin of the Feces?

The liner note said this album was recorded in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn on Halloween of 1991, but it contradicts the fuller title The Origin Of The Feces (Not Live At Brighton Beach). The album was actually recorded in Systems Two Recording Studio a few miles from Brighton Beach, but produced to sound as if it had been recorded at a live show by adding crowd noises, banter with the fictitious audience, and even a song stopping because the venue supposedly had received a bomb threat. This was done to simulate some controversy the band had during the Slow, Deep and Hard tour in Europe.

[The Letter M]

OK, but what about fake live albums, like Type O Negative's Origin of the Feces?

The liner note said this album was recorded in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn on Halloween of 1991, but it contradicts the fuller title The Origin Of The Feces (Not Live At Brighton Beach). The album was actually recorded in Systems Two Recording Studio a few miles from Brighton Beach, but produced to sound as if it had been recorded at a live show by adding crowd noises, banter with the fictitious audience, and even a song stopping because the venue supposedly had received a bomb threat. This was done to simulate some controversy the band had during the Slow, Deep and Hard tour in Europe.

That sounds like it's more of a concept album than a live album. 

-Marc.

[Dream Team]

Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour. Seen many bands do it judging from YouTube footage. Be spontaneous for crying out loud.

As far as the “live” topic, the less editing the better for me with JLB on a bad night being the exception, I can stomach almost any other singer’s bad night. As long as you have a killer guitar tone and the drums are punchy it should be good enough.

[hefdaddy42]

Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour. Seen many bands do it judging from YouTube footage. Be spontaneous for crying out loud.

Seems like an odd criticism of how someone does their job.  Try fronting a hundred shows and see how different you make it.

I know it's art, but it's also their job.  Time to clock in and make the donuts. 

[pg1067]

I also think the fade in/outs bring things down a bit, but there are certain performances on ESL that give it a pass.

Side 3 is a continuous piece of music…and possibly one of the greatest “sides” of a prog live album in music history. That particular version of YYZ remains the Professor’s most recognized drum solo of his entire career. And Jacob’s Ladder and La Villa particularly shine. So ya, that’s why that album remains a favorite in spite of its mixing flaws.

Yes, yes, and more yes.

OK, but what about fake live albums

Not quite the same thing, but I always thought Dio's presentation of King of Rock and Roll as if it were a live track was pretty cool.

Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour.

What Hef said, but also, who gives a rip unless you're attending at least a half dozen shows on a tour?

[wolfking]

Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour. Seen many bands do it judging from YouTube footage. Be spontaneous for crying out loud.

As far as the “live” topic, the less editing the better for me with JLB on a bad night being the exception, I can stomach almost any other singer’s bad night. As long as you have a killer guitar tone and the drums are punchy it should be good enough.

I guess they would be more focused on the performance than the between song banter.

[Glasser]

Want a laugh? I was at the DT gig in Long Island, NY, when halfway through the instrumental show they introduced Steven Michael Stone as their new vocalist who ran out on stage with MC Hammer pants and a mullet. Sadly he was so awful that I literally felt embarrassed for him. I was watching the show with Charlie Dominici and he looked at me and said "this is what they kicked me out for?" The funny part was between songs Stone looked at crowd and yelled "scream for me long beach!!!" I guess he was listening to Live After Death that day!!!!   That should have been a live album. Complete trainwreck!

[KevShmev]

The real question is, did Long Beach scream for him?

[pg1067]

In fairness, Bayshore is less than 40 miles from Long Beach.

The real question is, did Long Beach scream for him?

Judge for yourself:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cW0TYJN7tc (and yeah, it's virtually unlistenable).

[TAC]

BTW, I just came across an interview with JL from 1999, and at the end the interviewer asked JL to give his thoughts about each DT release up until that time. His comments for OiaL give us a little more idea of how much touching up there was:

Well, I thought it was an exciting evening. I had a lot of fun with it. We did three hours of music in one night. An hour and a half, then a 15 minute intermission, then back on for another hour and a half. There were technical problems, but I usually don't have to deal with them unless my microphone cuts out (laughs). I know there were problems with the keyboards, and the guitar was cacking here, there, and everywhere and some of those things had to be mended or fixed because it was just unacceptable. But I think what I really like about that album is it really is a face-value double live album. There is no doctoring here, there, and everywhere, unlike what you hear a lot in today's musical environment. Because if you ever see any of those bands and then hear the live album, you go "uh-uh, there's no way."

I'll be listening to both the official release and the boot for the show next week. FII Era time.

[jammindude]

Want a laugh? I was at the DT gig in Long Island, NY, when halfway through the instrumental show they introduced Steven Michael Stone as their new vocalist who ran out on stage with MC Hammer pants and a mullet. Sadly he was so awful that I literally felt embarrassed for him. I was watching the show with Charlie Dominici and he looked at me and said "this is what they kicked me out for?" The funny part was between songs Stone looked at crowd and yelled "scream for me long beach!!!" I guess he was listening to Live After Death that day!!!!   That should have been a live album. Complete trainwreck!

Mike has talked about that night.

Apparently it was Mike who gave Steve a copy of LAD and said something along the lines of “we want to sound like this” (MP has always done this. “Inspiration corner”, “James, sing this part like Doug Pinnick”, “James, sing this part like Dave Mustaine” etc…etc…)

It sounds like Steve just took it WAAAY too literally.

[Glasser]

Want a laugh? I was at the DT gig in Long Island, NY, when halfway through the instrumental show they introduced Steven Michael Stone as their new vocalist who ran out on stage with MC Hammer pants and a mullet. Sadly he was so awful that I literally felt embarrassed for him. I was watching the show with Charlie Dominici and he looked at me and said "this is what they kicked me out for?" The funny part was between songs Stone looked at crowd and yelled "scream for me long beach!!!" I guess he was listening to Live After Death that day!!!!   That should have been a live album. Complete trainwreck!

Mike has talked about that night.

Apparently it was Mike who gave Steve a copy of LAD and said something along the lines of “we want to sound like this” (MP has always done this. “Inspiration corner”, “James, sing this part like Doug Pinnick”, “James, sing this part like Dave Mustaine” etc…etc…)

It sounds like Steve just took it WAAAY too literally.

Brother, it was a nightmare. He couldn't sing live. I felt awful for the band, they looked humiliated after the show. I know I spoke to them after and I remember Rena saying " Aww come on, it was only his first show". She was always very very cool and optimistic. I will never forget that show.