Author Topic: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---  (Read 2137 times)

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Offline Zook

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2022, 10:17:03 AM »
Did everyone miss the post credit scene in the Wandavision finale? She was already using the Darkhold and searching other universes for her children. She was corrupted way before MoM. Unless they say the movie takes place a few days later, but that's still time for an evil book to warp her mind.

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #141 on: May 13, 2022, 10:32:21 AM »
Did everyone miss the post credit scene in the Wandavision finale? She was already using the Darkhold and searching other universes for her children. She was corrupted way before MoM. Unless they say the movie takes place a few days later, but that's still time for an evil book to warp her mind.
I agree with this. I don't think they needed to show her slowly being corrupted. Maybe a mention of the amount of time she'd been using the Darkhold would have been helpful. I didn't have as big of a problem with her seemingly abrupt slide into evil as most seem to have.

Offline Vmadera00

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #142 on: May 13, 2022, 10:44:42 AM »
As I mentioned in one of my posts, is not because it was all off screen (we got a hint at the end of Wandavision), but because that was established so early in the movie with no warning. They could've extended the wedding scene a little more, show his struggle with the same dreams (Which I guess it cannot be the same every night?), or even given Wanda a bit of time to establish her motives, but all of that happened in the first 20 minutes of the movie, or so. I guess that's in part due to how short the movie is, in comparison to other marvel films.

I liked the movie, just had some issues here and there (for me).

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #143 on: May 13, 2022, 11:13:45 AM »
The biggest disappointment for me was the lack of more cameos. My expectations were a little too high. The ones we got were great, and I understand it can't be Fan Service the Movie, but I feel they didn't use the multiverse as much as they should have. I was really hoping for a Deadpool cameo, but I guess Ryan Reynolds was actually telling the truth when he said he wasn't in it.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #144 on: May 13, 2022, 12:00:00 PM »
The bulk of WandaVision takes place only 3-4 weeks after Endgame, around October/November of 2023. Doctor Strange ITMOM takes place at least after Christmas 2024, so almost 13-14 months after WandaVision. That's plenty of time for Wanda to become fully corrupted by the Darkhold, I'd think.

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Offline Melphina

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2022, 04:10:42 PM »
If that time between the show and the film is true then yes it makes sense but that is never communicated at all in the film, so unless you already know that trivia it very much feels like Wanda is going from 0 to 60 even if the show showed 5 seconds of her with the Darkhold at the end of the show. Just my two cents. Having the logic is one thing, but you need to communicate that to the audience in the presentation.

Offline Adami

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #146 on: May 13, 2022, 04:58:24 PM »
Just to clarify, and this will be my last time doing so, it's not that Wanda's turn made no sense. I didn't say "WHAT?!? HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?!?!"

Her heel turn is perfectly logical and I knew it was coming, but it was still handled very poorly. They spent multiple movies building her as a hero. And I mean building her as one, since she did not start off as one. Multiple movies cementing a character on a journey that would, we assume, eventually go dark. But they skipped to the end. They missed a few chapters of that story and jumped to her not only being a villain, but then killing her off (I know, I know, she's probably not dead, but the story beat included her dying, so I'm counting it here). It was poorly executed, that's my complaint. It made it difficult for me (and apparently a lot of other people) to have much of an emotional investment in her arc in this movie. But again, that's not the biggest issue. Here are my main issues.

1) Dr. Strange has almost no arc, and almost no active role in this story. He's just kind of having things happen to him or around him or he's responding to things. I didn't walk away from this movie knowing more about him than I did before it began. The movie could've had Wong doing all of it and it wouldn't have made any difference since the CHARACTER of Strange isn't necessary to what happens other than it happening to have him in the beginning. They started the movie with some real potential with him. The idea of if he's happy is good. And it bookended on that as well, but there was nothing in the middle really touching it other than that one scene of his memory, which didn't really impact anything. It had potential, but was just dropped. Also the idea of "Couldn't you have made another play with Thanos?" Is a really cool idea to get inside his head, but they just very quickly dropped it. There were elements of potential Strange story arcs that were sprinkled (or jimmied) in, but none of them were developed at all. So I didn't really end up connecting with the titular hero.

2) The Illuminati scene. I walked in, like I assume many other people, kind of waiting for that scene to happen. We knew Captain Carter would be there, and Professor X and some firey flying thing, and then there's a ton of rumors. I knew Tom Cruise wasn't in it and I didn't expect him. I was LEGIT shocked (in a good way) when we saw Anson Mount as Black Bolt, as despite hating the show, I love that actor as that character, and loved that he got a second go at it. I was (less) shocked to see Reed Richards. And seeing the other Captain Marvel was very very cool. But they handled it the exact way I was scared they'd handle it in Spider-Man. Show up to get some applause and nothing else. They added NOTHING to the story at all but to get applause. They came, talked a little (one of them even less so) and then pretty quickly died. We didn't need to see that to know how powerful Wanda was as we already knew. It just made them all seem really dumb. Especially Reed Richards, the smartest man in the world. So you ended up with some VERY exciting cameos being reduced to meaningless applause moments and then quickly killing them off. You could literally remove the entire Illuminati scene and the movie would be no different what so ever. That's not a good sign. I didn't have a single emotional reaction with Black Bolt died, or Reed Richards, or Captain Marvel, or whomever. It just felt empty, and that is such a god damn shame.

3) What happened to all the MADNESS?!?! It's in the title. In the end, we get a 20-30 second shot of some legit multiversal madness. Then we get a lot of time on an earth I'd rather the MCU takes place on (where they have Avengers, Inhumans, and X-Men) and a few minutes on a dying world. That was it, right? Did I forget the madness? It was just so tame. As cool as it would have been, I didn't need 50 more cameos from Logan, and Deadpool, and Superman, and Willy Wonka or whatever.

4) The story just didn't take enough time to have any emotional impact. A lot of stuff happened that I'm supposed to care about. Strange having an existential crisis? Meh, barely in there, barely enough to notice or care about. America, while a VERY cool performance by a fantastic actress that I am excited to see more of, had little emotional impact because we spent maybe 20 seconds on her experiences. Wong? Just there. Dozens, if not more, scorerers are murdered? Move right along to the next scene. The entire Wanda arc as well. Lizzie did a god damn wonderful job with it. Bravo! But it was just so damn fast and empty that I never really connected.

And I say all of this, knowing it's my own experiences and not necessarily anyone elses, but after watching and reading a lot of other reviews, I am clearly not alone. This got one of Marvel's lowest cinema scores in history and it should have EASILY been a A or an A+.

I don't fully blame the writer/Marvel for this, cause I know COVID changed so  much about this movie from conception to completion, that it might have been impossible to save.

That said, I still rank this movie in the top half of Marvel, and I had a REALLY good time watching most of it.

1) The acting is great, and I love the personality that Raimi was able to put in the movie as a director.
2) The movie is FILLED with absolutely brilliant scenes that I just wish were part of an overall better movie. The multiverse fall? Amazing. The Illuminati planet? Noice. The music fight? BRILLIANT! A cape made of demon ghost things? Genius. And even more I can't recall off the top of my head.
3) I loved America Chavez. I would love to spend more time with that character and give her some time to shine.


So yea, movie was filled with brilliant ideas and hints at a brilliant movie, but somehow, somewhere, it all got lost and we ended up with a big mess. Lots of cool and virtually no substance. I don't want Marvel to be like Transformers where it's just a ton of cool visuals and who cares what else. I have, and want to continue to care about what is happening and to whom it is happening.

That's all.
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Online soupytwist

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #147 on: May 14, 2022, 12:25:47 AM »
Good sensible write up Adami.  We very rarely agree on anything, but I always enjoy reading your takes.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 04:05:36 AM by soupytwist »

Online lordxizor

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2022, 11:54:36 AM »
If that still ranked in your top half of MCU movies, I'd hate to see your brutal reviews of the lower ones. 😂

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #149 on: May 14, 2022, 12:07:04 PM »
If that time between the show and the film is true then yes it makes sense but that is never communicated at all in the film, so unless you already know that trivia it very much feels like Wanda is going from 0 to 60 even if the show showed 5 seconds of her with the Darkhold at the end of the show. Just my two cents. Having the logic is one thing, but you need to communicate that to the audience in the presentation.

This has been an "issue" with phase 4 so far - after Endgame and Far From Home, no films or shows have given concrete dates or time-periods, and fans have just tried to figure things out with context clues, creator and cast interviews, and just relative time between stories. I think we only "know" WandaVision is a few weeks after Endgame is because the show featured Halloween, and Endgame was around fall of 2023. Following that, we also know that Far From Home is early summer of 2024 because they are going on summer vacation after the school year ends (so around June 2024). As for other shows like The Falcon And The Winter Soldier, some clues in that show pointed it to spring 2024, around March or April. Eternals also takes place post-Endgame due to the inclusion of the GRC (Global Repatriation Council), first seen in TFATWS. Likewise, both Hawkeye and No Way Home take place during the Christmastime of 2024, and until Doctor Strange 2, was the furtherest we've gotten into the MCU timeline, although the placement of Moon Knight is still up in the air (though it is definitely post-Endgame, due to another GRC spot on a London bus). Black Widow is a prequel to Infinity War/sequel to Civil War, and Shang-Chi's placement in the timeline is also a bit muddled.

I think going forward, they're going to keep solid dates and time periods vague just so they can retcon the placement of things if they need to. So far, only relative time periods have been given, mostly based on seasons or holidays, but we've got a year and a half of events that are all just kind of floating about right now (Endgame in Sept/Oct 2023, up to MOM in early 2025).

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Offline Adami

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2022, 12:43:02 PM »
If that still ranked in your top half of MCU movies, I'd hate to see your brutal reviews of the lower ones. 😂

I think I felt more strongly because it had so much potential. And I have no idea if the movie is actually in my top half, since I hate doing rankings, but it didn't feel wrong to say it, so it might not be exact but it's close.

The lower movies? They just made me feel....little. Like they didn't have the potential to live up to in the first place. But keep in mind, I really like all of the MCU movies. Even Hulk. So there are no MCU movies that I hate or strongly dislike. Eternals comes close to having little feeling for though.
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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #151 on: May 14, 2022, 04:38:17 PM »
Just saw it a second time, and it was pretty good.

Re: one of the continuity/timeline slip ups: Didnít I hear that this movie was supposed to come out before NWH and thatís why they know who Spider Man is?
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Offline Adami

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #152 on: May 14, 2022, 04:39:47 PM »
Just saw it a second time, and it was pretty good.

Re: one of the continuity/timeline slip ups: Didnít I hear that this movie was supposed to come out before NWH and thatís why they know who Spider Man is?

So yea it was supposed to come out before NWH but the movie is changed to reflect that. They know SPIDER-MAN but not Parker. So he knows he helped spidey but doesnít remember who he is under the mask.
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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #153 on: May 14, 2022, 04:41:00 PM »
Ah!  :tup
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2022, 05:33:54 PM »
I completely agree with Adami.  The movie had incredible potential, but had serious writing problems that killed the potential of this film to be excellent, which it well could have been.  Some of my issues:

1.  Wanda going full-on.  Adami already covered this very well.  As my oldest son put it, there's no way that Wanda at the end of WandaVision acts the way Wanda in this film acts or does the things Wanda in this film does.  Yeah, we know the Darkhold corrupts.  But we don't know to what degree, and we didn't see the process with Wanda, so there is no emotional engagement.  And, yes, we saw her using the Darkhold in the end credits scene at the end of WandaVision.  But there was little, if any, indication in that scene that she was being corrupted by it.  It all happened offscreen and we were just supposed to say, "oh, okay."  And that's fine, but it is far less than great and, contrary to what we saw in most of the phase 1 - phase 3 films, we didn't get to buy into it emotionally.  And I completely reject JD's premise that we saw the Darkhold easily corrupt in Agents of SHIELD.  That's all well and good, but Marvel (MCU) pretty much disavowed that show being cannon, so Marvel doesn't get to have it both ways.  Sorry, but, again, just not good writing.  Her turn back toward the end also seemed too abrupt and not earned.  But on that, maybe I was just too frustrated by the initial lack of proper on-screen buildup for her going evil that I wasn't willing to buy into anything by the end of the film.

2.  Wong.  As Adami said, he was "just there."  Didn't really contribute much.  But more egregiously, he just did some things that were out of character, and done seemingly just to move the plot where Raimi wanted it to go.  Biggest example is him giving up the location of Wundagore.  Wong was a stickler for rules, and if Strange would make bold proclamations in Infinity War about letting Stark or Parker die to protect the timestone, there's no way that Wong, who was even more of a stickler, gives up such dangerous, multiverse impacting information to Wanda just because some other sorcerors were being tortured.  That is inconsistent with his character.  Earlier MCU would not have done something like that.

3.  The battle of Wundagore.  I initially wasn't too taken out of the moment by the fact that powerful magic users aren't overly impacted by the elements and being out on an extremely high mountain.  It's kinda dumb, but that kind of thing is standard superhero fare.  But here's the thing:  We already established in the first film when Strange got stranded on Everest that cold exposure and oxygen deprivation actually are a thing, even in the MCU.  And you have Wong, who had no protection from extreme elements whatsoever, unconscious on a frozen ledge for who knows how long.  Again, Raimi just wasn't paying attention to reality or in-universe rules, and I just feel like there was much more care in earlier phases that didn't let similar issues happen.

4.  The battle of Kamar Taj.  In the grand scheme of things, relatively minor.  But there were a few dumb moments that took me out of the action.  First of all, when did Kamar Taj magically (haha) transport itself from the middle of the city to a hill overlooking the city?  My son said that he got the impression in the first film that the doorway in the city might just be a portal to a bigger compound somewhere else.  I guess I can buy that.  But it again seemed like Raimi was just making things up rather than following what came before.  A bit more egregious though was the whole wizard forcefield sequence.  I just thought it was dumb.  There should have been a different way of initially thwarting Wanda and holding her back before she cut loose with her power.  And a lot of the dialog was just silly.  The surprised shouts of "she's breaking through" and "fall back!" make it seem like nobody even listened to Strange saying that they wouldn't be able to hold her in the first place.  Once she broke through, all the ensuing chaos was dark, and pretty cool, and well shot.  But the opening to the battle left me cold and felt dumbed down and out of place. 
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Offline Dream Team

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2022, 05:55:29 PM »
^ Good post. Marvel had previously established such a high consistent level of quality that they have earned tougher critiquing. Shove Covid, if the movie isn't good enough (looking at you Feige) then keep it in the oven until it's ready.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2022, 08:14:23 PM »
https://www.buzzfeed.com/noradominick/elizabeth-olsen-doctor-strange-multiverse-of-madness

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Offline The Realm

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Re: Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---
« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2022, 09:34:41 PM »
I completely agree with Adami.  The movie had incredible potential, but had serious writing problems that killed the potential of this film to be excellent, which it well could have been.  Some of my issues:

1.  Wanda going full-on.  Adami already covered this very well.  As my oldest son put it, there's no way that Wanda at the end of WandaVision acts the way Wanda in this film acts or does the things Wanda in this film does.  Yeah, we know the Darkhold corrupts.  But we don't know to what degree, and we didn't see the process with Wanda, so there is no emotional engagement.  And, yes, we saw her using the Darkhold in the end credits scene at the end of WandaVision.  But there was little, if any, indication in that scene that she was being corrupted by it.  It all happened offscreen and we were just supposed to say, "oh, okay."  And that's fine, but it is far less than great and, contrary to what we saw in most of the phase 1 - phase 3 films, we didn't get to buy into it emotionally.  And I completely reject JD's premise that we saw the Darkhold easily corrupt in Agents of SHIELD.  That's all well and good, but Marvel (MCU) pretty much disavowed that show being cannon, so Marvel doesn't get to have it both ways.  Sorry, but, again, just not good writing.  Her turn back toward the end also seemed too abrupt and not earned.  But on that, maybe I was just too frustrated by the initial lack of proper on-screen buildup for her going evil that I wasn't willing to buy into anything by the end of the film.

2.  Wong.  As Adami said, he was "just there."  Didn't really contribute much.  But more egregiously, he just did some things that were out of character, and done seemingly just to move the plot where Raimi wanted it to go.  Biggest example is him giving up the location of Wundagore.  Wong was a stickler for rules, and if Strange would make bold proclamations in Infinity War about letting Stark or Parker die to protect the timestone, there's no way that Wong, who was even more of a stickler, gives up such dangerous, multiverse impacting information to Wanda just because some other sorcerors were being tortured.  That is inconsistent with his character.  Earlier MCU would not have done something like that.

3.  The battle of Wundagore.  I initially wasn't too taken out of the moment by the fact that powerful magic users aren't overly impacted by the elements and being out on an extremely high mountain.  It's kinda dumb, but that kind of thing is standard superhero fare.  But here's the thing:  We already established in the first film when Strange got stranded on Everest that cold exposure and oxygen deprivation actually are a thing, even in the MCU.  And you have Wong, who had no protection from extreme elements whatsoever, unconscious on a frozen ledge for who knows how long.  Again, Raimi just wasn't paying attention to reality or in-universe rules, and I just feel like there was much more care in earlier phases that didn't let similar issues happen.

4.  The battle of Kamar Taj.  In the grand scheme of things, relatively minor.  But there were a few dumb moments that took me out of the action.  First of all, when did Kamar Taj magically (haha) transport itself from the middle of the city to a hill overlooking the city?  My son said that he got the impression in the first film that the doorway in the city might just be a portal to a bigger compound somewhere else.  I guess I can buy that.  But it again seemed like Raimi was just making things up rather than following what came before.  A bit more egregious though was the whole wizard forcefield sequence.  I just thought it was dumb.  There should have been a different way of initially thwarting Wanda and holding her back before she cut loose with her power.  And a lot of the dialog was just silly.  The surprised shouts of "she's breaking through" and "fall back!" make it seem like nobody even listened to Strange saying that they wouldn't be able to hold her in the first place.  Once she broke through, all the ensuing chaos was dark, and pretty cool, and well shot.  But the opening to the battle left me cold and felt dumbed down and out of place.

This is a great post. Point 1 especially, Wanda going full on evil 'out of nowhere' makes this movie very weak emotionally, totally agree (and I am a big fan of Wanda/Vision - loved it). The connection just isn't there.

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2.  Wong.  As Adami said, he was "just there."  Didn't really contribute much.  But more egregiously, he just did some things that were out of character, and done seemingly just to move the plot where Raimi wanted it to go.  Biggest example is him giving up the location of Wundagore.  Wong was a stickler for rules, and if Strange would make bold proclamations in Infinity War about letting Stark or Parker die to protect the timestone, there's no way that Wong, who was even more of a stickler, gives up such dangerous, multiverse impacting information to Wanda just because some other sorcerors were being tortured.  That is inconsistent with his character.  Earlier MCU would not have done something like that.

Based on the info Wanda unlike some Marvel villains wasn't a massive threat to humanity, in essence she just wanted to take America's powers and go live in another universe with her kids.  And while it started with Sorcerors being tortured and murdered, if Wong doesn't give up the information - what is Wanda capable of doing next to break Wong?  Suddenly she is a threat to humanity. 

I don't really get the Wanda suddenly going evil bit.  Grief and loss from Endgame turned her heel in Wandavision!  The odd bit about the film for me is she didn't seem to be interested in finding a reality that had both her kids and Vision!