Dr Strange in The Multiverse of Madness --- SPOILERS ALLOWED ---

[jingle.boy]

Finally saw it on Tuesday, and for the most part enjoyed it very much.  Upper 1/2 MCU move afaic.  Olsen stole the performance naturally.  Couple of thoughts on the commentary here.

re: Adami's Illuminati rant.  I see what you're saying, but still think you're full of shit  .  I think it was absolutely necessary to see just how fucking powerful Wanda was.  Sure, she'd taken out Kamar Taj with relative ease, but those aren't warriors meant for battle, and very basic in their powers.  She'd been bested by Thanos, nearly bested by Agatha, so her domination of the Illuminati - particularly out-mindfucking Prof X was important.  to show just how big of a threat she is/was. The fact that it also gave a bit of fan-service in the process was appreciated by this movie-goer.  Now, Reed Richards giving away Black Bolt's power so that Wanda could give him the old Wade Wilson treatment - that wasn't very smart.

re: Bosk's rant about Wong giving up the location of the carvings.  I also see that point, and think that it might have been better for Wanda just to go into his head to pull out the information.  The fact she tortured a few good Sorcerers, and that alone was enough for Wong to give up the goods was kinda grating (much like Gamorra giving up Voromir just cuz Maw was stretching out Nebula - I hated that).

Would've liked to have seen more Multi-verse, but the scene of Strange and Chavez going thru about a dozen multi-verses was pretty cool.

Wanda's heel turn - totally fine with it.  No issues.  And yes, Wanda at the end of W/V would fall back into her evil ways.  Hell, she up and ran away from the months of torture she put those people without much more than a "sorry, my bad.  We cool now?" and flew off.  If anything the "remorse" she showed on screen was as brief as her turning back to evil was fast.  Not exactly sure how anyone can say her fall back to the dark side wasn't well written, and not feel the same way about how she absolved herself from all that was done to Westview. Would it have been nice for it (the heel-turn) to be drawn out a little more?  Sure, but sometimes it's ok just to get to the point.  We've all lamented some aspects of movies that get drawn out for no apparent reason, so I took no issue of turning her heel right out of the gate.  Her abrupt un-heel turn was also understandable - she saw herself thru Billy and Tommy's eyes, and realized she was the monster that could never be a mother.  I wasn't terribly stuffed about that.

Zombie Strange was great.  The musical battle with Strange Supreme was excellent.  American Chavez was great.  Charlize as Clea is a great casting choice - can't wait to see them together in the Dark Dimension.

Overall, a solid B++

[bosk1]

If I were grading it, I'd probably put it in the B-/C+ range (probably B-, but I need to see it again to figure out how much those points actually bother me, or if I'm just stewing over them a little too hard and perhaps blowing the context out of proportion).

[Adami]

@Chad being super wrong 


Gonna disagree with you there big guy. I will maybe grant you how she handled Professor X. However, seeing her that powerful, at least enough to kill Captain Marvel with a statue (dumb), change Blackbolts face to not have a mouth, and turn Reed into a bunch of Strings..........didn't pay off. Yes, you set her as VERY powerful in that scene, but then what did she do with it? She slowly chased them for a while and knocked over some doors. Then she threw magic bolts or whatever at Strange at the end. The powers they set her up to have in the Illuminati scene almost immediately went away. She literally warped reality twice and then just forgot she could do it? So no, it wasn't helpful or meaningful because the end battle featured NONE of the power they set up. She was exactly as powerful at the end as they set her up to be at the battle of Katmandu or whatever.

[soupytwist]

@Chad being super wrong 


Gonna disagree with you there big guy. I will maybe grant you how she handled Professor X. However, seeing her that powerful, at least enough to kill Captain Marvel with a statue (dumb), change Blackbolts face to not have a mouth, and turn Reed into a bunch of Strings..........didn't pay off. Yes, you set her as VERY powerful in that scene, but then what did she do with it? She slowly chased them for a while and knocked over some doors. Then she threw magic bolts or whatever at Strange at the end. The powers they set her up to have in the Illuminati scene almost immediately went away. She literally warped reality twice and then just forgot she could do it? So no, it wasn't helpful or meaningful because the end battle featured NONE of the power they set up. She was exactly as powerful at the end as they set her up to be at the battle of Katmandu or whatever.

That's the problem with magic powers.  Even Strange vs the Eye monster at the start.   So he can make magic disks that slice clean though the monsters tenticles....why not just create more and slice the body to pieces?

[Dream Team]

It’s been a problem with Superhero movies for decades, they only use the powers needed for that particular scene. Same thing as Godzilla waiting forever to use his nuclear breath vs the MUTOs. Stuff is never consistent.

[jingle.boy]

@Chad being super wrong 


Gonna disagree with you there big guy. I will maybe grant you how she handled Professor X. However, seeing her that powerful, at least enough to kill Captain Marvel with a statue (dumb), change Blackbolts face to not have a mouth, and turn Reed into a bunch of Strings..........didn't pay off. Yes, you set her as VERY powerful in that scene, but then what did she do with it? She slowly chased them for a while and knocked over some doors. Then she threw magic bolts or whatever at Strange at the end. The powers they set her up to have in the Illuminati scene almost immediately went away. She literally warped reality twice and then just forgot she could do it? So no, it wasn't helpful or meaningful because the end battle featured NONE of the power they set up. She was exactly as powerful at the end as they set her up to be at the battle of Katmandu or whatever.

With this as the premise, then movies would be about 7 seconds.  Like, why doesn't Strange just pull the Loki-treatment on everyone .... send them through a portal and have them "falling"... not just for 30 minutes, but for eternity?  Throw a sliding portal to send them to the bottom of the Atlantic?  Or the moon?

We could do this all day.

[Melphina]

I was thinking about this... Captain Carter, Captain Marvel, and Black Bolt could arguably at least fight with Wanda. What the hell was Reed Richards going to do anyway? Bind around her like a snake? What exactly can Stretch McGillicuddi DO? I never read Fantastic 4 and don't really remember him doing anything cool in the cartoon I briefly watched as a kid.

I wonder if they'll ever introduce his son into the MCU. He can basically think of universes into existence.

[Adami]

@ Captain Canada

You're arguing against specific aspects of my criticism without addressing the entire criticism. It's not the what, but the how. The Illuminati scene, even by your admittance, served two major purposes. 1) Show how powerful Wanda was, and 2) Get audience applause. Since showing how powerful Wanda was had NO impact on the story what so ever, then it only served one purpose, getting applause, and I think that's cheap and cynical. Yes, sometimes they show people using one power and then never again or only when it's convenient, but usually those scenes serve a purpose other than showing the power. This didn't. It show that Wanda could turn zombie strange, or Wong, or America, or whomever, into ANYTHING via reality warping. She could turn zombie Strange into a dog, or simply dust, but chose instead to throw witch lightning at him the entire time. So showing that she HAD the power to turn him into a dog or whatever serves no purpose at all. It didn't make her a bigger threat or give Strange anything to overcome. As I said, if you completely remove the Illuminati scene, it changes the story 0%. That's not a good thing. I think it COULD have been cool, but it just wasn't. It was applause and nothing more. If you're going to bring back Stewart and Mount and introduce a new Captain Britain and Reed Richards, then make them have significance. They just didn't, sadly. If you loved it, cool. A ton of people did. I don't want to take that way, but it's still a pretty poorly written scene. Don't get me wrong, I like bad stuff too now and then. Doesn't make it great simply because I had fun. I'd have a good time an airport Sbarro. But I won't call it well made pizza, you know? Spider-Man No Way Home had a lot of flaws as well, but because I was so invested in the story, the characters, etc., then I was able to largely not be bothered. But because I was not terribly invested in the story/characters in this movie (at least not nearly as much), then the flaws stop being so forgivable. A well constructed plot, character arcs, emotional buy in, etc., would have gone a long way for me.


@Kattle, I agree about Reed. He's a good fighter, but not against someone like Wanda. I'd imagine he was there to talk her down, somehow? But....yea, being the dude right in front of her isn't in character for him. He'd be in a lab or something trying to devise a way to take her down, not standing in front of her telling her how to defeat their secret weapon. It's a situation of a writer writing a character MUCH smarter than the writer is. It doesn't usually work out.

[lonestar]

I disagree that showing how powerful Wanda is has no purpose or impact on the story. It makes her sacrifice in the end that much more meaningful...nobody can beat her, we thoroughly know that because she fucking mowed through the Illuminati without breaking a sweat. It's crystal clear that she, in the end, can have what she wants. But she sees also what she has become when America puts her in that scene with her kids, and she knows that's not who she is. The good in her wins out, it defines her in the end.

[Adami]

I disagree that showing how powerful Wanda is has no purpose or impact on the story. It makes her sacrifice in the end that much more meaningful...nobody can beat her, we thoroughly know that because she fucking mowed through the Illuminati without breaking a sweat. It's crystal clear that she, in the end, can have what she wants. But she sees also what she has become when America puts her in that scene with her kids, and she knows that's not who she is. The good in her wins out, it defines her in the end.

I can see that. I think that had the potential to be powerful, but I disagree that it mattered much. She destroyed magic mountain, defeated Wong, and Strange without much of a problem. I think they COULD have used something like the illuminati scene to make her sacrifice powerful, as I agree that was supposed to be a powerful moment. I just don't think it was done well enough to have that impact, at least for me. Her sacrifice didn't mean more to me because she turned Richards into twizzler's pull and peel. So for me, and maybe me alone, it just didn't have any impact. AND it cheapened characters we have all been waiting for. I want to care when Reed Richards does something, or Black Bolt, or Captain Brittan, or even their Cap Marvel. But I just didn't. The only reason I cared at all about Charles was because there's 22 years of history behind that. I just wish they had executed their idea differently. The idea was sound, but the execution (no pun intended) was lacking.

[lonestar]

I disagree that showing how powerful Wanda is has no purpose or impact on the story. It makes her sacrifice in the end that much more meaningful...nobody can beat her, we thoroughly know that because she fucking mowed through the Illuminati without breaking a sweat. It's crystal clear that she, in the end, can have what she wants. But she sees also what she has become when America puts her in that scene with her kids, and she knows that's not who she is. The good in her wins out, it defines her in the end.

I can see that. I think that had the potential to be powerful, but I disagree that it mattered much. She destroyed magic mountain, defeated Wong, and Strange without much of a problem. I think they COULD have used something like the illuminati scene to make her sacrifice powerful, as I agree that was supposed to be a powerful moment. I just don't think it was done well enough to have that impact, at least for me. Her sacrifice didn't mean more to me because she turned Richards into twizzler's pull and peel. So for me, and maybe me alone, it just didn't have any impact. AND it cheapened characters we have all been waiting for. I want to care when Reed Richards does something, or Black Bolt, or Captain Brittan, or even their Cap Marvel. But I just didn't. The only reason I cared at all about Charles was because there's 22 years of history behind that. I just wish they had executed their idea differently. The idea was sound, but the execution (no pun intended) was lacking.

Funny, in talking to my kid about it, she (being a massive Xmen comic fan) was kind of bummed when it became clear Stewart's version of Xavier was going to be used. She wanted an xmen unique to the MCU, not a rehash of the old series, so maybe by doing this, and to a lesser extent the brief use of Pietro in Wandavision, is solely fan service, and a way of saying 'yes, we are going away from the old xmen' by literally snapping his neck.

Just spitballing here man.

[jingle.boy]

@ Captain Canada

You're arguing against specific aspects of my criticism without addressing the entire criticism. It's not the what, but the how. The Illuminati scene, even by your admittance, served two major purposes. 1) Show how powerful Wanda was, and 2) Get audience applause. Since showing how powerful Wanda was had NO impact on the story what so ever,

We'll agree to disagree.

I think it COULD have been cool, but it just wasn't. It was applause and nothing more. If you're going to bring back Stewart and Mount and introduce a new Captain Britain and Reed Richards, then make them have significance. They just didn't, sadly.

On this, we can agree.  It most certainly COULD have been better - that can easily be said for 90% of movie/TV scenes in the history of ever. 

@Kattle, I agree about Reed. He's a good fighter, but not against someone like Wanda. I'd imagine he was there to talk her down, somehow? But....yea, being the dude right in front of her isn't in character for him. He'd be in a lab or something trying to devise a way to take her down, not standing in front of her telling her how to defeat their secret weapon. It's a situation of a writer writing a character MUCH smarter than the writer is. It doesn't usually work out.

And we agree on this as well.  All part of the "it could've been better"

[Adami]

I disagree that showing how powerful Wanda is has no purpose or impact on the story. It makes her sacrifice in the end that much more meaningful...nobody can beat her, we thoroughly know that because she fucking mowed through the Illuminati without breaking a sweat. It's crystal clear that she, in the end, can have what she wants. But she sees also what she has become when America puts her in that scene with her kids, and she knows that's not who she is. The good in her wins out, it defines her in the end.

I can see that. I think that had the potential to be powerful, but I disagree that it mattered much. She destroyed magic mountain, defeated Wong, and Strange without much of a problem. I think they COULD have used something like the illuminati scene to make her sacrifice powerful, as I agree that was supposed to be a powerful moment. I just don't think it was done well enough to have that impact, at least for me. Her sacrifice didn't mean more to me because she turned Richards into twizzler's pull and peel. So for me, and maybe me alone, it just didn't have any impact. AND it cheapened characters we have all been waiting for. I want to care when Reed Richards does something, or Black Bolt, or Captain Brittan, or even their Cap Marvel. But I just didn't. The only reason I cared at all about Charles was because there's 22 years of history behind that. I just wish they had executed their idea differently. The idea was sound, but the execution (no pun intended) was lacking.

Funny, in talking to my kid about it, she (being a massive Xmen comic fan) was kind of bummed when it became clear Stewart's version of Xavier was going to be used. She wanted an xmen unique to the MCU, not a rehash of the old series, so maybe by doing this, and to a lesser extent the brief use of Pietro in Wandavision, is solely fan service, and a way of saying 'yes, we are going away from the old xmen' by literally snapping his neck.

Just spitballing here man.

Oh I agree with your kiddo. I love the old X-Men movies (well...most of them at least), but I want fresh takes in this MCU. That's actually one reason I think Ion or whatever from the 2000's FF would have been a cooler Reed Richards, since it would be in line with bringing back people who previously played the character.

I'd be happy if the MCU introduces X-Men, FF, and maybe even Inhumans that are not at all related to what we saw in the Illuminati.

[Adami]

@ Captain Canada

You're arguing against specific aspects of my criticism without addressing the entire criticism. It's not the what, but the how. The Illuminati scene, even by your admittance, served two major purposes. 1) Show how powerful Wanda was, and 2) Get audience applause. Since showing how powerful Wanda was had NO impact on the story what so ever,

We'll agree to disagree.

I think it COULD have been cool, but it just wasn't. It was applause and nothing more. If you're going to bring back Stewart and Mount and introduce a new Captain Britain and Reed Richards, then make them have significance. They just didn't, sadly.

On this, we can agree.  It most certainly COULD have been better - that can easily be said for 90% of movie/TV scenes in the history of ever. 

@Kattle, I agree about Reed. He's a good fighter, but not against someone like Wanda. I'd imagine he was there to talk her down, somehow? But....yea, being the dude right in front of her isn't in character for him. He'd be in a lab or something trying to devise a way to take her down, not standing in front of her telling her how to defeat their secret weapon. It's a situation of a writer writing a character MUCH smarter than the writer is. It doesn't usually work out.

And we agree on this as well.  All part of the "it could've been better"

It's cool.

I'll change my wedding tie to "Stadler and Jingle are wrong" 

[lonestar]

I disagree that showing how powerful Wanda is has no purpose or impact on the story. It makes her sacrifice in the end that much more meaningful...nobody can beat her, we thoroughly know that because she fucking mowed through the Illuminati without breaking a sweat. It's crystal clear that she, in the end, can have what she wants. But she sees also what she has become when America puts her in that scene with her kids, and she knows that's not who she is. The good in her wins out, it defines her in the end.

I can see that. I think that had the potential to be powerful, but I disagree that it mattered much. She destroyed magic mountain, defeated Wong, and Strange without much of a problem. I think they COULD have used something like the illuminati scene to make her sacrifice powerful, as I agree that was supposed to be a powerful moment. I just don't think it was done well enough to have that impact, at least for me. Her sacrifice didn't mean more to me because she turned Richards into twizzler's pull and peel. So for me, and maybe me alone, it just didn't have any impact. AND it cheapened characters we have all been waiting for. I want to care when Reed Richards does something, or Black Bolt, or Captain Brittan, or even their Cap Marvel. But I just didn't. The only reason I cared at all about Charles was because there's 22 years of history behind that. I just wish they had executed their idea differently. The idea was sound, but the execution (no pun intended) was lacking.

Funny, in talking to my kid about it, she (being a massive Xmen comic fan) was kind of bummed when it became clear Stewart's version of Xavier was going to be used. She wanted an xmen unique to the MCU, not a rehash of the old series, so maybe by doing this, and to a lesser extent the brief use of Pietro in Wandavision, is solely fan service, and a way of saying 'yes, we are going away from the old xmen' by literally snapping his neck.

Just spitballing here man.

Oh I agree with your kiddo. I love the old X-Men movies (well...most of them at least), but I want fresh takes in this MCU. That's actually one reason I think Ion or whatever from the 2000's FF would have been a cooler Reed Richards, since it would be in line with bringing back people who previously played the character.

I'd be happy if the MCU introduces X-Men, FF, and maybe even Inhumans that are not at all related to what we saw in the Illuminati.

I think we're all in agreement on that one..

[soupytwist]

Ioan Gruffudd is a pretty weak actor and wasn't a great Reed, no need to bring him back.

[bosk1]

As is usually the case (except when he is disagreeing with Stadler), Adami is correct on just about everything.

[jingle.boy]

Ioan Gruffudd is a pretty weak actor and wasn't a great Reed, no need to bring him back.

Hence the thought of bringing him back just to instantly waste him.

[Lonk]

Saw the movie again today, and some of the things that bothered me on first watch I thought were fine this time around. In fact, besides some awkward dialogue here and there, I thought the movie was great up to, and including, the illuminati stuff. After their death is when things got a little...strange for me.

The whole scene with Wanda chasing them through the tunnel was simply not good. You have three people supposedly running full speed and unable to outrun a limping woman, which even though she can fly, for some reason was just limping her way around.

The whole Zombie strange while cool, parts of it felt cheesy. Also, it reminds me of Edgar the Bug from Men in Black.

But overall, much better than the first watch. Illuminati stuff was fine. Seeing it after reading all the criticism gave me a different perspective and I think that scene while not very important for the plot, it serves a purpose which is to get Strange to the book of Vishanti, and even if he didn't get to use it, it serves the purpose to move the plot forward to strange using the Darkhold.

One thing I thought was that we didn't see Mordo from the 616. Wonder what he was up to?

[MinistroRaven]

Saw the movie again today, and some of the things that bothered me on first watch I thought were fine this time around. In fact, besides some awkward dialogue here and there, I thought the movie was great up to, and including, the illuminati stuff. After their death is when things got a little...strange for me.

The whole scene with Wanda chasing them through the tunnel was simply not good. You have three people supposedly running full speed and unable to outrun a limping woman, which even though she can fly, for some reason was just limping her way around.

The whole Zombie strange while cool, parts of it felt cheesy. Also, it reminds me of Edgar the Bug from Men in Black.

But overall, much better than the first watch. Illuminati stuff was fine. Seeing it after reading all the criticism gave me a different perspective and I think that scene while not very important for the plot, it serves a purpose which is to get Strange to the book of Vishanti, and even if he didn't get to use it, it serves the purpose to move the plot forward to strange using the Darkhold.

One thing I thought was that we didn't see Mordo from the 616. Wonder what he was up to?

I read that 616 Mordo is in the 40+ minutes that were cut from the movie. Apparently Mordo was on the opening scene of the movie fighting Wanda for using the Darkhold. In one of the posters we see Mordo in the twin where Wanda was hiding.

[Orbert]

Lizzie has an interview where she explains why she’s not looking for Vision.

Cool, but it still should have at least been addressed in the movie.  WandaVision was all about Wanda's grief over losing Vision.  Was he even mentioned in this movie?

[The Letter M]

Lizzie has an interview where she explains why she’s not looking for Vision.

Cool, but it still should have at least been addressed in the movie.  WandaVision was all about Wanda's grief over losing Vision.  Was he even mentioned in this movie?

Twice, I believe, albeit very briefly. The one I remember is when Strange asks Wanda what she knows about the multiverse and she respond that "Viz had his theories. He said it was dangerous." or something along those lines. I think there was another mention of him later on but I cannot remember.

-Marc.

[Orbert]

Ah, I remember that now.  Still, if she's willing to do everything she did in the movie to get her kids back (or more accurately, take over the life of some variant of herself that still has her kids), why not find a 'verse with Vision as well?

[bosk1]

Because "poor writing" is probably the correct answer. 

[Dream Team]

Because "poor writing" is probably the correct answer.

Either that, or they didn't want to squeeze in another character to complicate the plot. Maybe after she got the kids she would have set out trying to find Viz too.

[hefdaddy42]

I finally saw it.

My only really big issues were that Wanda was hell-bent on her kids and didn't care about Vision, the Illuminati were under-utilized, and that Strange didn't really have much of an arc.  But it was definitely fun to watch, and I was especially glad that they let Raimi be Raimi.

[Adami]

So I've been thinking about it, and I realized I'm not totally sure I have a sense of who Strange is as a character. I know WHAT he does, but I'm not sure why he does it, you know? I got the overall character and motivation for the other MCU people (minus Eternals, I guess) but I just have no sense of who Strange is as a character. He seems more of a function than a person at this point.

[jingle.boy]

He protects our reality, douchebag.

[Adami]

He protects our reality, douchebag.

Haven't seen him do squat for Canada.

[jingle.boy]

He protects our reality, douchebag.

Haven't seen him do squat for Canada.

Since we're about 12% of the US by many measurements, he's done 12% of squat for us.

[Adami]

He protects our reality, douchebag.

Haven't seen him do squat for Canada.

Since we're about 12% of the US by many measurements, he's done 12% of squat for us.

I think we call that collateral damage.

[DoctorAction]

So I've been thinking about it, and I realized I'm not totally sure I have a sense of who Strange is as a character. I know WHAT he does, but I'm not sure why he does it, you know? I got the overall character and motivation for the other MCU people (minus Eternals, I guess) but I just have no sense of who Strange is as a character. He seems more of a function than a person at this point.

I don't really feel anything for him, tbh. The stuff he does is, you know, really powerful, but there's no attachment from me. If they'd have killed him off in that movie I wouldn't have given a toss.

[soupytwist]

So I've been thinking about it, and I realized I'm not totally sure I have a sense of who Strange is as a character. I know WHAT he does, but I'm not sure why he does it, you know? I got the overall character and motivation for the other MCU people (minus Eternals, I guess) but I just have no sense of who Strange is as a character. He seems more of a function than a person at this point.

Similar to Stark.  Intelligence and arrogance....but where as Stark was more of an extrovert (money, fast cars, hot women) and loves being social where he can be the centre of attention. Strange is an introvert, generally a loner seeking knowledge, being round other people generally annoys him, because he thinks himself above them.

[lordxizor]

So I've been thinking about it, and I realized I'm not totally sure I have a sense of who Strange is as a character. I know WHAT he does, but I'm not sure why he does it, you know? I got the overall character and motivation for the other MCU people (minus Eternals, I guess) but I just have no sense of who Strange is as a character. He seems more of a function than a person at this point.

I don't really feel anything for him, tbh. The stuff he does is, you know, really powerful, but there's no attachment from me. If they'd have killed him off in that movie I wouldn't have given a toss.

I feel the same way about Strange. Interesting character, but I'm not invested in him at all for someone who's been around for several movies at this point.

[Adami]

So I've been thinking about it, and I realized I'm not totally sure I have a sense of who Strange is as a character. I know WHAT he does, but I'm not sure why he does it, you know? I got the overall character and motivation for the other MCU people (minus Eternals, I guess) but I just have no sense of who Strange is as a character. He seems more of a function than a person at this point.

Similar to Stark.  Intelligence and arrogance....but where as Stark was more of an extrovert (money, fast cars, hot women) and loves being social where he can be the centre of attention. Strange is an introvert, generally a loner seeking knowledge, being round other people generally annoys him, because he thinks himself above them.

But that’s not his character or arc. That’s his flaws. Or some of them.

I know why Stark, and Rogers, and Thor, and Banner do what they do. I have no clue why Strange does. Other than he’s a hero and stuff.