Vocal Phrasing on WDADU

[svisser]

So I have an interesting question for all the old school DT fans.

I was never an avid fan of their first album but decided to give it some time in my car's stereo the past week. My opinion has not really changed a whole lot, but I noticed something interesting.

I realized that only one of the songs have lyrics written by Charlie. That surprised me because way back when I first became a DT fan, I remember hearing from multiple sources that the vocal phrasing sounded so different on the first album because of Charlie. But, considering he only wrote lyrics for one song, I doubt that now.

Does anyone have insight on this? Did Charlie influence the lyrical phrasing that much? How many of those songs were even written before he was in the band?

[bosk1]

I think that, no matter who writes the lyrics for a singer, the singer is still going to have an influence on the phrasing of how the lyrics are sung, just due to his own style.  Some of that can be somewhat "standardized" if the band, producer, or others direct the singer to sing certain lines a certain way.  I don't know how proactive the members of DT were back then in terms of directing the vocal phrasing.  But I do know a couple of general facts that would have absolutely influenced the change in vocal phrasing from the time Charlie was the singer to the time James took over:

1.  Charlie and James are very different kinds of singers.  And while it may sound obvious, that would have a big impact on why vocal phrasing is different between them.

2.  In their earlier years, the band was still learning how to write for a vocalist.  Some of the songs on WDADU are obviously not written well in terms of having a vocalist sing the lyrics that are written for them.  Kevin's contributions on LFAGA and OAMOT are poster children for this.  It was better by I&W, and even better by Awake as the band continued to grow in that area.

[pg1067]

I realized that only one of the songs have lyrics written by Charlie. That surprised me because way back when I first became a DT fan, I remember hearing from multiple sources that the vocal phrasing sounded so different on the first album because of Charlie. But, considering he only wrote lyrics for one song, I doubt that now.

Why are you linking "vocal phrasing" so tightly to who wrote the lyrics for the album?  The lyricist will certainly have some input into "vocal phrasing," but, in most cases, the singer will have much more control over that aspect of a song.*  One thing to keep in mind is that WDADU was recorded at a time when the four members of DT other than Charlie were all 21 years old.  By contrast, Charlie was 37 years old.  On top of that, you had a relatively experienced producer who was more than a decade older than JM, JP, KM and MP (but more than four years younger than Charlie).  I very much doubt that JP and KM (the two primary lyricists on the album) were giving Charlie a ton of direction about "vocal phrasing."  And, in that regard, I suspect that Terry Date has a lot to do with the issue along with Charlie.

* - Obviously, a much different dynamic existed toward the last years of MP's tenure with the band and the direction he gave JLB about phrasing (not just the songs for which MP wrote lyrics).

[YngVai]

In their earlier years, the band was still learning how to write for a vocalist.  Some of the songs on WDADU are obviously not written well in terms of having a vocalist sing the lyrics that are written for them.  Kevin's contributions on LFAGA and OAMOT are poster children for this.  It was better by I&W, and even better by Awake as the band continued to grow in that area.

OAMAOT is such a mouthful, haha. I remember reading a cool KM interview years ago where he dove into his songwriting approach. By the time he was working on OSI, he would start out singing/mumbling nonsense/unrelated words, just to get the phrasing and feel natural, then hang the lyrics on the overall shape of the melody.

Really interesting insight into how musicians make adjustments to the process to correct shortcomings in previous work.

[bosk1]

In their earlier years, the band was still learning how to write for a vocalist.  Some of the songs on WDADU are obviously not written well in terms of having a vocalist sing the lyrics that are written for them.  Kevin's contributions on LFAGA and OAMOT are poster children for this.  It was better by I&W, and even better by Awake as the band continued to grow in that area.

OAMAOT is such a mouthful, haha. I remember reading a cool KM interview years ago where he dove into his songwriting approach. By the time he was working on OSI, he would start out singing/mumbling nonsense/unrelated words, just to get the phrasing and feel natural, then hang the lyrics on the overall shape of the melody.

Really interesting insight into how musicians make adjustments to the process to correct shortcomings in previous work.

Yeah, for sure.  And I'm not even saying that maybe KM didn't do that same thing when he was writing lyrics to those earlier songs.  Maybe he did.  But it's one thing to hum the line to see whether the phrasing works the way the lyricist intends.  It's another to take the time to appreciate whether or not a vocalist can actually deliver the lines powerfully in the context of belting the entire song in a live setting.  Sometimes, passages may be more difficult in practice for the vocalist than the lyric/melody writer may realize. 

To take some examples from my own personal experience, I have sung covers of Metropolis, Neon Knights (Sabbath), and Peace of Mind (Boston).  Those all have some REALLY challenging passages that may not sound all that challenging to the casual listener, but are really difficult to sing in context of powerfully singing the entire songs.  I had to learn that there are VERY specific places to breath in a VERY specific way, or else I really had trouble with those songs.  And that is because of the way the lyrics and vocal melodies are written.

In general, I think DT's vocal passages were written more and more to play to James' strengths and to not fall into those traps as DT progressed.  That was something they learned over time.  There is a moment that sticks out in my mind from one of the "making of" videos.  I can't remember now whether it was for This Dying Soul or The Dark Eternal Night, but it was when James was working on some of the vocal passages, and either Mike alone or Mike and JP together were asking James whether he could pull it off live, and whether they should change anything.  I think that in that clip, they were talking mostly about vocal effects.  But it still fits my overall point in that they were working with James to come up with something he could deliver live, rather than just writing something and saying "well, this sounds cool" without any regard for whether it could be convincingly sung.

[hefdaddy42]

I remember hearing from multiple sources that the vocal phrasing sounded so different on the first album because of Charlie.

Because he's a different vocalist, and in fact person, than James.

Who wrote the lyrics has much less to do with it than who is singing the lyrics.

[Herrick]

In general, I think DT's vocal passages were written more and more to play to James' strengths and to not fall into those traps as DT progressed.  That was something they learned over time.  There is a moment that sticks out in my mind from one of the "making of" videos.  I can't remember now whether it was for This Dying Soul or The Dark Eternal Night, but it was when James was working on some of the vocal passages, and either Mike alone or Mike and JP together were asking James whether he could pull it off live, and whether they should change anything.  I think that in that clip, they were talking mostly about vocal effects.  But it still fits my overall point in that they were working with James to come up with something he could deliver live, rather than just writing something and saying "well, this sounds cool" without any regard for whether it could be convincingly sung.

I'd really like to see that Train of Thought documentary. The one for Systematic Chaos is around 1 hour and 30 minutes and it was a lot of fun to watch. I've seen that one a few times but I don't remember anyone asking LaBrie if he could sing a certain part live.

[KevShmev]

I know some disagree with this, but I feel that they ought to do their best in the studio and if it cannot be performed exactly the same way live, who cares?  The studio albums and versions are largely what most remember, so might as make those as great as possible. 

[TheCountOfNYC]

I know some disagree with this, but I feel that they ought to do their best in the studio and if it cannot be performed exactly the same way live, who cares?  The studio albums and versions are largely what most remember, so might as make those as great as possible.

Normally I would agree, but with all of the crap that James is given for his live performances, a little thought going into how consistently he can sing the vocal lines goes a long way. He’s actually fairly consistent live with the newer songs, and it’s the older ones with the tougher melodies that he struggles with.

[gzarruk]

I know some disagree with this, but I feel that they ought to do their best in the studio and if it cannot be performed exactly the same way live, who cares?  The studio albums and versions are largely what most remember, so might as make those as great as possible.

Normally I would agree, but with all of the crap that James is given for his live performances, a little thought going into how consistently he can sing the vocal lines goes a long way. He’s actually fairly consistent live with the newer songs, and it’s the older ones with the tougher melodies that he struggles with.

I also agree with Kev on the studio vs live thing, but then the song Lord Nafaryus comes to mind and I remember how James couldn't really sing that high part (I've heard the whispering of revolution) live and it was a really rough performance (from what I've seen online)

[Ben_Jamin]

Studio versions are a work of art. They're a product. There's sounds that are used to present a certain atmosphere, setting, or to describe a sort of feeling for the listener. Whatever the song is about, the musician will try their best to present that product in their recordings.

If you watch Peter Orullians The Astonishing track-by-track, he relates these sounds and sound/instrument choices to provide more atmosphere, scene setting, and tone to the listener.

What I found with The Astonishing and the crying of Lord Nefaryus is that those are genuine cries. Crying is very similar to Laughter, in one makes you cry tears of sadness and one you cru tears of joy. Both can sound similar and I have heard many people cry where they sound like they're laughing. So I was not put off by that.

Now we go into the vocals and why singers or musicians choose to go for these harder sections in the studio, because that's what the song calls for. It's a reason to be aware of your  fellow musicians and vocalists capabilities. Which is where the creative differences excuse comes into play where musicians leave bands, which this reason is they're not capable of doing what the songwriter needs for the song. Which then leads to solo albums or other projects.

Charlie was not capable of doing these high notes, which Dream Theater songs call for. It's why I find it sort of odd that they went with Dominici, and makes me think they just went with what they could at the time to keep that momentum consistent.

Then you get a great vocalist and then later on decide to write music that this vocalist is not capable of doing consistently. Pushing him to the limits live, expecting him to be perfectly in tune live is a pretty complicated and harsh expectation, if you ask me.

[KevShmev]

I know some disagree with this, but I feel that they ought to do their best in the studio and if it cannot be performed exactly the same way live, who cares?  The studio albums and versions are largely what most remember, so might as make those as great as possible.

Normally I would agree, but with all of the crap that James is given for his live performances, a little thought going into how consistently he can sing the vocal lines goes a long way. He’s actually fairly consistent live with the newer songs, and it’s the older ones with the tougher melodies that he struggles with.

I get what you are saying, but James could easily adjust a little better with some of those harder-to-sing melodies.  I feel like he only hurts himself when trying to do too much live.  Feels like far too often his reach exceeds his grasp, and it has been that way for a while.  And that is when he hits those "ouch, what was he trying to do there??" notes.  I saw the band on The Astonishing tour and he was really good for practically the entire show, but there were a few instances where he tried to take it up a notch or two higher than he should have (higher than what was even on the record) and it was a mess.  In that regard, he is sometimes his own worst enemy when it comes to criticism of his live performances.

[Ben_Jamin]

I listened to the many versions of A Fortune in Lies and when I got to Live at Luna Park I noticed how good JLB's vocals were

[Dream Team]

I know some disagree with this, but I feel that they ought to do their best in the studio and if it cannot be performed exactly the same way live, who cares?  The studio albums and versions are largely what most remember, so might as make those as great as possible.

Pretty much. Would we really have wanted tamed-down versions of awesome Priest and Maiden songs from 35+ years ago because the singer was worried about future live performances? No.