Author Topic: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists  (Read 2255 times)

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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« on: December 11, 2021, 03:20:51 PM »
This is funny and simultaneously not funny. I am not a music streamer and the way Spotify screws artists is a main reason I want nothing to do with it.

https://www.theonion.com/spotify-celebrates-100th-dollar-given-to-artists-1844943985

NEW YORK—Proudly declaring that they never thought they’d see the day their vision would finally be realized, streaming service Spotify reportedly celebrated Thursday the platform’s 100th dollar given to artists. “When we launched Spotify in 2008, our mission was to reward artists when customers listened to music, and today, we finally reached three figures in artist payouts,” said Spotify CEO Daniel Ek, posing with a giant check for a $0.00000029 payout to Dua Lipa for her song “Break My Heart” that propelled the world’s musicians past a collective $100 in earnings. “This is an absolute milestone for a musician-oriented platform like Spotify, and confirms what we believed when we started, which is that music-streaming platforms can be a reliable way to help bands and artists earn pennies or even nickels for their work. But this achievement is really about the artists on our platform. Spotify couldn’t have done it without you.” To celebrate the occasion, Spotify also reportedly unveiled a new commemorative playlist of its highest-earning artists, with all proceeds from plays going to Spotify.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2021, 03:52:24 PM »
Amen to your sentiment. Spotify can burn in hell. 

And what is sad is that it is so widely used now that I have had a few people react with shock when I mention that I do not use it. 

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2021, 03:55:53 PM »
Saw this article on Facebook and found it very funny.

However, I'm a little bored of the claim that Spotify screws artists over (at least, any more than they've always been screwed over). Artists, as a collective, make as much as they ever did.

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2021, 04:46:00 PM »
Saw this article on Facebook and found it very funny.

However, I'm a little bored of the claim that Spotify screws artists over (at least, any more than they've always been screwed over). Artists, as a collective, make as much as they ever did.
In reality, it's just another platform for the big artists to make even more money.

The only streaming platform I use anymore is Tidal and that's only for the albums I can't buy directly from Bandcamp or HD Tracks or something similar.
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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2021, 04:52:33 PM »
Saw this article on Facebook and found it very funny.

However, I'm a little bored of the claim that Spotify screws artists over (at least, any more than they've always been screwed over). Artists, as a collective, make as much as they ever did.

I'm bored of that claim, as well. Especially since artists can typically choose not to be on Spotify if they don't like the deal it's offering. And because I doubt a lot of the people who make that claim are walking the walk and buying the music they listen to. And I say this as a very light Spotify user (I have an account, but I probably use it one or twice every couple of months).
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2021, 05:03:40 PM »
However, I'm a little bored of the claim that Spotify screws artists over (at least, any more than they've always been screwed over). Artists, as a collective, make as much as they ever did.
If this is true, and I don't know that it is, then it is largely due to them going on tour and charging a lot more for tickets than before. Before streaming companies came into the picture, bands and artists would make money off of album sales, even if it wasn't the greatest amount (courtesy of the record labels). These days, I imagine it's far less because of the streaming companies not giving people except the diehard fans any real motivation to actually purchase their music and therefore why you have many artists saying it's not worth recording new music any more and just becoming legacy touring acts instead.

Not only that, but you say "as a collective" - correct me if I'm wrong, but by that I assume you mean lumping in all the Metallicas, Kanye Wests and Taylor Swifts in with the thousands of bands (new and old) that are barely clinging to life, right? If yes, then I'd say the divide between those mega-stars and those lowly barely-known bands is far larger than before.
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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2021, 05:05:29 PM »
Actually, in the recent wave of 'fuck Spotify' posts that accompany the year end recap posts, I've seen more that a few small musicians defending Spotify, grateful for the platform to get their music out to more people. It's all a matter of perspective, and as someone said above, every artist can just opt out if they don't like it.

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2021, 05:12:28 PM »
Fuck Facebook! ;D
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Offline LithoJazzoSphere

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2021, 05:12:55 PM »
It's popular to hate on Spotify these days, but I think the picture is a bit more complicated than people typically think about.  For one, payments per listen may seem abysmally low, but you have to account for the fact that Spotify, depending upon what the legal contractual agreements are, could potentially be obligated to pay into perpetuity, or at least more likely years, possibly decades, and this adds up over time.  This is a seemingly small, but constant stream of future income, whereas say a CD purchase, is a one and done deal.  The artists aren't getting any more money out of you for a CD you purchased 30 years ago, and haven't been since you bought it. 

Also, if it were really as dire as people like to paint it, it's strange that so many artists are on it, and more enterprising individuals and groups haven't broken off to create more competitors that would pay more, and the artists would flock to those instead.  Maybe this will still happen at some point, but short of some infrastructural obstacles I'm not aware of, the status quo might be evidence that it's not economically feasible to pay much more than they already are, or someone would have already swooped in to poach many artists from Spotify.  I mean, just look at what Atomic Fire Records did to Nuclear Blast recently.  So if there's a way to pay more and still run a profitable business, someone is sure leaving a big portion of the market open. 

I just think it's too easy to assume the worst by looking at superficial stats and headlines and not look at the logistics of what would actually need to change.  There are a lot of factors that people aren't usually considering, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.  I agree that corporations tend to get away with too much, but I think the key is allowing others the chance to better serve the needs of consumers, that's the best check on one company monopolizing the industry. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 05:18:49 PM by LithoJazzoSphere »

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2021, 11:14:30 PM »
I think many artists wouldn't deny having their music on Spotify can and has led to more sales of their music, merch, concert tickets, than if they weren't.

So it's sort of a necessary evil to many of them, much like many, especially smaller/independent artists viewed downloading at 1 point. I.e., many people who know of, or know 1 or 2 songs from an artist, are not willing to blindly buy an album (or go to a show and/or buy merch), without being able to hear more music from that artist. So in many cases, without the ability to initially hear their music on Spotify, they would never pay for anything from that artist. But, with Spotify, they at least may buy an album or go to a concert, etc.

That being said, it's a dramatically different business model that many artists are not used to and haven't been able to earn the income levels they expect or used to have.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2021, 07:33:46 AM »
Some good and interesting points of views here, from both sides.  I view Spotify similar to Ticketmaster in that they are a necessary evil. If you are an artist trying to make a name, sure, it is great because it is an easy way to get your music out there for anyone to here since anyone can happen across it and listen, vs the old days where they were at the mercy of FM radio stations playing their songs even if they submitted any as singles.  FM radio back in the day could make or break a song or an artist.   Even though Spotify compensates artists very little, choosing to not be on that platform, for most, would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Neal Morse can get away with it because he has such a rabid and dedicated fanbase, a big portion of which will still buy his physical product and/or pay for his own Waterfall streaming service, but he is an exception to the rule.

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2021, 08:25:56 AM »
Some good and interesting points of views here, from both sides.  I view Spotify similar to Ticketmaster in that they are a necessary evil. If you are an artist trying to make a name, sure, it is great because it is an easy way to get your music out there for anyone to here since anyone can happen across it and listen, vs the old days where they were at the mercy of FM radio stations playing their songs even if they submitted any as singles.  FM radio back in the day could make or break a song or an artist.   Even though Spotify compensates artists very little, choosing to not be on that platform, for most, would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Neal Morse can get away with it because he has such a rabid and dedicated fanbase, a big portion of which will still buy his physical product and/or pay for his own Waterfall streaming service, but he is an exception to the rule.

It could be related to the rise of world human interaction the internet allows. With regards to touring, many bands are finding popularity in other countries more so than their own countries of origin. It has allowed many bands to be heard in far off lands. I really enjoy how the internet has made music accessibility vastly easier to find what you enjoy. I have discovered lots of amazing music by bands I would never even have heard if not for the internet.

The internet has also changed how businesses are ran. Lots of businesses models changed or shifted due to the internet. The news is a huge example as it continues to shift from Newspapers/TV news broadcasts to Articles on News Websites, News Social Media pages, and broadcasted onto YouTube. That business is on the verge of a generational shift as the new generation does not watch TV much at all. Only utilizing the TV screen for Netflix, Youtube, and Video Games.

This is the Technological Revolution. And spotify is the next step of Radio. Just like Satellite is the evolution of FM radio and it slowly turned into it, I remember when Satellite radio had no commercials, hosts, and played more obscure songs.

As much as we don't want to admit, music is still in the end a product. A product needs to sell, and when it does not sell, you get no funds for your business. It's why musicians are investing heavily on Deluxe Box Sets because the people want more, and demand more, for paying that much for these unique items within the box sets. These musicians also invest heavily in the live shows as that is the main money maker and Ticketmasters' greedy business knows this. I feel they realized this after Woodstock happened. How much is made for festivals such as Download or Waken? And how much does each band make for playing those festivals? I am guessing not that much.

These bands are also utilizing marketing to market different products other than music. Anything that can be branded can be marketable and it's hilarious how music fans laughed at Kiss for realizing this and actually selling their brand, and yet these same music fans are now buying these holiday sweaters, blankets, clocks, and other seasonal regalia marketed by Metal Bands today.

That's the entire point of The Future Bites as Steven Wilson sees what the business of Music has become. He sees how it is a business and the need to balance the love of music with the business of your brand/band. It's also why I love that album. That album is what I would consider "True Art". The art he presents in that album is the commentary of the consumerism of humans, and he uses music as his example. Which makes Elton John's contribution that much more hilarious because people will listen to the song just because of the Brand, in this case Elton John, and will hear him only reading off a grocery list of items. :rollin  Could also be a reason why He decided to reform Porcupine Tree, as he likely lost a lot of funding with the cancellation of the Future Bites tour. I am sure he had already invested in the shows immense production. And what will generate him more funds...The reforming of his most sellable brand, Porcupine Tree.



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Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2021, 01:03:46 PM »
The thing is, most people don't want to pay a lot of money for music. We here, on a forum for a niche band in a niche genre may be different, but even I cannot buy every record I want to listen to.

So people look for cheap alternatives, first it was copying it with tapes and later cdrs, then it was filesharing, now it is streaming. Sure sucks for the artist but I don't see how it could be changed.

And it's not that spotify makes millions of dollars for themselves that they could use to pay the artists better. So it's either ditch the free membership and do without revenue from advertisements, or raise the membership fee and lose (probably) a lot of paying customers. Either way the artist is most certainly not getting more money.
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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2021, 01:07:14 PM »
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline HOF

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2021, 01:13:09 PM »
My take continues to be that streaming is probably the best thing to happen to small label and independent bands, and the worst thing to happen to bands who were at one time signed to a major label.  Basically, the type of acts you never would have heard of previously now have some means for exposure. I definitely get why artists who don’t have any control over how their music is distributed being upset that their music is almost being given away. But at the same time, I don’t think those bands are losing out on much since nobody is going to be buying their music anyway (outside whatever dedicated fans base might already exist).

I also came to the conclusion the last time we talked about this that if an artist has their music on a streaming service, the best thing I can do for them in addition to buying whatever physical product is to stream them as often as possible. That way they keep getting whatever small royalties every time I listen. At least that’s more useful to them than me refusing to stream music.

Offline ariich

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2021, 01:18:24 PM »
Before I start, just to explain that I'm replying to your post Scotty but I'm not picking on you at all, it was just the first one that responded to mine and covered the points I wanted to make.

However, I'm a little bored of the claim that Spotify screws artists over (at least, any more than they've always been screwed over). Artists, as a collective, make as much as they ever did.
If this is true, and I don't know that it is, then it is largely due to them going on tour and charging a lot more for tickets than before. Before streaming companies came into the picture, bands and artists would make money off of album sales, even if it wasn't the greatest amount (courtesy of the record labels). These days, I imagine it's far less because of the streaming companies not giving people except the diehard fans any real motivation to actually purchase their music and therefore why you have many artists saying it's not worth recording new music any more and just becoming legacy touring acts instead.
The problem is, these claims seem to be based on the experiences of some individual bands, but don't stack up when looking in totality. To an extent touring and merch have indeed had an impact, but I can't see any reason that would be a bad thing. It's also not the only factor.

I posted a fair bit about this in a thread a year or two ago, which you can see starting from here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55590.msg2689436#msg2689436

Some choice bits and pieces based on the US (probably broadly representative of the wider global picture). The first two graphs are from an interesting bit of 2018 research by Citi called Putting the Band Back Together, the third is RIAA data.



Two important features in this graph:
  • Artists' total revenue has consistently increased over time. It stagnated between 2000 and 2009 with widespread use of the internet, I'd guess due to piracy, but since subscription services rolled out in the 2010s it has shot up again and is at its highest ever level.
  • Artists' share of total revenue was consistently decreasing until 2000, but has steadily risen since and is at its highest level since at least 1984. You can absolutely argue they're getting a bad deal, but the evidence does not support the claim that they're getting any worse a deal than they were before.



Interesting features from this graph:
  • Crucially it does indeed confirm how dominant concert revenues have become, which has been the key driver of artists making more money. So in the context of COVID and minimal touring, this is a massive problem currently.
  • Music sales have indeed declined, while income from music platforms (now dominated by streaming services but also including radio) has continued to rise. In total, income from music platforms is more than music sales ever made even at its peak around 2000.



This RIAA graph is really important (if it looks small, click it to make it bigger). It's adjusted for inflation so it's in real terms, and it only considers recorded music, so we can discount touring, merch etc. And we find that, contrary to popular belief, subscription services have in the past 6 years or so actually pushed up total revenue from recorded music to reach the same historic levels from the 70s and 80s. Revenues increased massively in the 90s once CDs became popular as they sold so much, but we also know from the Citi graphs above that artists made a smaller share in that period, so won't actually have seen all of that increase.


Most of the commentary on how evil Spotify is seems to be based on the experiences of individual artists, but this relates to your final comment:

Quote
Not only that, but you say "as a collective" - correct me if I'm wrong, but by that I assume you mean lumping in all the Metallicas, Kanye Wests and Taylor Swifts in with the thousands of bands (new and old) that are barely clinging to life, right? If yes, then I'd say the divide between those mega-stars and those lowly barely-known bands is far larger than before.
I'm not sure what your evidence is for these but I'm not following. The mega-stars have always been massive. If anything, in the old world they could get away with everyone buying their albums to be "in" even if they didn't actually like or listen to them. Streaming services pay out based on what people actually listen to.

I think the main difference is among the medium and small bands, and it's not just about streaming services. It's about technology more generally. It is now, relatively speaking, incredibly cheap and easy to write, record, produce and distribute music, and it's in distribution that streaming services have created a particular benefit for smaller bands. In the old world, the medium bands could still get picked up by a record label and make some money from their music. The small bands? Nothing. Couldn't make money and barely existed. Whereas now anyone can create and sell music, and what that means is that the total money the industry is making is shared between a greater number of artists. That makes it harder for the medium bands and some of the bigger ones, but it's amazing for the smaller ones who wouldn't have had a chance in the old world. They can't make a full-time job of it if they stay small, but they can do it successfully alongside other work, whereas before the up-front costs were too high without label backing. And there's a much greater chance of them getting bigger if they build up a following.

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Offline ariich

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2021, 01:19:52 PM »
My take continues to be that streaming is probably the best thing to happen to small label and independent bands, and the worst thing to happen to bands who were at one time signed to a major label.  Basically, the type of acts you never would have heard of previously now have some means for exposure. I definitely get why artists who don’t have any control over how their music is distributed being upset that their music is almost being given away. But at the same time, I don’t think those bands are losing out on much since nobody is going to be buying their music anyway (outside whatever dedicated fans base might already exist).

I also came to the conclusion the last time we talked about this that if an artist has their music on a streaming service, the best thing I can do for them in addition to buying whatever physical product is to stream them as often as possible. That way they keep getting whatever small royalties every time I listen. At least that’s more useful to them than me refusing to stream music.
As happened last time this got discussed here (link in my post above), I think you and I are basically in agreement on pretty much everything.

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Offline Pettor

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2021, 01:24:53 PM »
I think this video pretty much sums up my take on it as well (except the overly angry tone 😅). I honestly just think Spotify is an easy target and I don't see why artists like Mike Portnoy etc. looks at the distribution and starts hitting on the label instead. Well well, easy target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szSff7TUkv8

Offline HOF

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2021, 01:35:38 PM »
My take continues to be that streaming is probably the best thing to happen to small label and independent bands, and the worst thing to happen to bands who were at one time signed to a major label.  Basically, the type of acts you never would have heard of previously now have some means for exposure. I definitely get why artists who don’t have any control over how their music is distributed being upset that their music is almost being given away. But at the same time, I don’t think those bands are losing out on much since nobody is going to be buying their music anyway (outside whatever dedicated fans base might already exist).

I also came to the conclusion the last time we talked about this that if an artist has their music on a streaming service, the best thing I can do for them in addition to buying whatever physical product is to stream them as often as possible. That way they keep getting whatever small royalties every time I listen. At least that’s more useful to them than me refusing to stream music.
As happened last time this got discussed here (link in my post above), I think you and I are basically in agreement on pretty much everything.

One thing that I do think is problematic, and has been worsened if maybe not caused by streaming, is that labels no longer bother to invest in and develop artists. Rick Beato was talking recently about how they don’t even need to scout or do A&R anymore. They essentially just take their cues from the algorithms. They can both discover new artists and push out new stuff via streaming without having to really invest in anyone.

Offline ariich

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2021, 01:56:47 PM »
I think this video pretty much sums up my take on it as well (except the overly angry tone ). I honestly just think Spotify is an easy target and I don't see why artists like Mike Portnoy etc. looks at the distribution and starts hitting on the label instead. Well well, easy target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szSff7TUkv8
While the angry swearing isn't exactly to my taste (:lol) his points are pretty spot on. Generally consistent with what I've gathered from the Citi research and RIAA data, but actually provides more robust evidence on some points which is great.


My take continues to be that streaming is probably the best thing to happen to small label and independent bands, and the worst thing to happen to bands who were at one time signed to a major label.  Basically, the type of acts you never would have heard of previously now have some means for exposure. I definitely get why artists who don’t have any control over how their music is distributed being upset that their music is almost being given away. But at the same time, I don’t think those bands are losing out on much since nobody is going to be buying their music anyway (outside whatever dedicated fans base might already exist).

I also came to the conclusion the last time we talked about this that if an artist has their music on a streaming service, the best thing I can do for them in addition to buying whatever physical product is to stream them as often as possible. That way they keep getting whatever small royalties every time I listen. At least that’s more useful to them than me refusing to stream music.
As happened last time this got discussed here (link in my post above), I think you and I are basically in agreement on pretty much everything.

One thing that I do think is problematic, and has been worsened if maybe not caused by streaming, is that labels no longer bother to invest in and develop artists. Rick Beato was talking recently about how they don’t even need to scout or do A&R anymore. They essentially just take their cues from the algorithms. They can both discover new artists and push out new stuff via streaming without having to really invest in anyone.
I don't know that this is a problem in and of itself. Labels, management teams and producers certainly do work with artists to help them develop but I agree it's almost certainly much less active now. But then, is it needed as much given technological developments and greater connectivity?

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2021, 02:45:34 PM »
I think it may actually come down to..."People just don't have the time for music anymore".

It makes sense as the people are not consuming or investing in music as much as they were before. Even with all the free ways to listen to music, that investment into the industry is not there. Oddly, this resulted in finding different ways for bands to make profits besides merchandise, such as VIP packages, meeting at merch booths during festivals, and now Twitch/Youtube podcast subscriptions.

I wouldn't blame Spotify more so than the consumer. The way I pay back and invest is go to the shows. I try my best to attend whenever I can, and even that is getting difficult. I honestly think that streaming live shows is beneficial for bands to utilize. If tickets sell out, you could offer streaming tickets to generate even more revenue in the live shows, and possibly even offer everyone who attends the live show (both physical and streaming) to re-watch the show for a couple of days, or weeks or an audible download of the show.

It's weird because music as a business is losing the primary focus on the music to being focused more on it being utilized as a product, performance, and entertainment. The interests of the consumer are on the product, showmanship of the performers, and the entertainment of dancing in the clubs, background noise, or travel comfort. The focus and interest in the music itself is what I feel is being lost in both the business and the consumer. Within the consumer, the focus on the live shows isn't on seeing or hearing the music, it's being there at that place having a good time away from the harshness of the current lifestyle of society, music is secondary to that enjoyment of being surrounded by like-minded people also there to enjoy the environment.

We could also look at Iron Maiden and their consumer base here in the US and elsewhere in the world. The reaction to them playing A Matter of Life And Death, a brand new album, in it's entirety says a lot about the consumer more so than the band. The US consumers of Iron Maiden are more invested in their well-known material and are content with that than their new outputs. I wouldn't say Iron Maiden are playing nostalgia tours, I would say they know and understand their market, especially in the US. They actually are now balancing their sets that does draw in good sized crowds.

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Offline HOF

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2021, 03:06:31 PM »
Another positive of streaming services is they are essentially a public archive of music history. Lots of stuff is out of print or at least really hard to find in physical format, and over time that’s going to be a bigger issue.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2021, 05:00:48 PM »
Another positive of streaming services is they are essentially a public archive of music history. Lots of stuff is out of print or at least really hard to find in physical format, and over time that’s going to be a bigger issue.

There should be a public library that houses a copy of every album available. That would be awesome. But then for most releases, all you'd need is the master files or tape to reprint more cd's and offer downloads. Actually, subscription services would be beneficial for public libraries in general.

The issue for me is the technology to playback these recordings becoming obsolete. As long as there are devices to playback these recordings, they will stay, just like books.

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Offline Pettor

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2021, 01:21:27 AM »
I think it may actually come down to..."People just don't have the time for music anymore".

It makes sense as the people are not consuming or investing in music as much as they were before. Even with all the free ways to listen to music, that investment into the industry is not there. Oddly, this resulted in finding different ways for bands to make profits besides merchandise, such as VIP packages, meeting at merch booths during festivals, and now Twitch/Youtube podcast subscriptions.

I wouldn't blame Spotify more so than the consumer. The way I pay back and invest is go to the shows. I try my best to attend whenever I can, and even that is getting difficult. I honestly think that streaming live shows is beneficial for bands to utilize. If tickets sell out, you could offer streaming tickets to generate even more revenue in the live shows, and possibly even offer everyone who attends the live show (both physical and streaming) to re-watch the show for a couple of days, or weeks or an audible download of the show.

I don't think consuming music has gone down tbh. It just changed. Where I live there's so much live music now and it just keeps on increasing. Everyone can make music, distribute it and there's  people coming to most of the shows as well even if the band is quite unknown. I guess the biggest impact has been on artists from the "older days" in a way since the distribution channels look different. Honestly people seem to invest more time on music than ever before, since it's more available, but in a different way than the old times. Remember that we as humans usually have an internal "gps", meaning that we use this gps to measure the world against and when it doesn't show the same result as before we think something is broken. Usually the problem is that the gps needs a recalibration to see the correct results. Sometimes there's even more than one gps available to calibrate against. Spotify is kind of a beast likt that. Comparing it to radio or cd sales just doesn't fit.

I do also think we tend to calibrate against the most visible i.e. Tiktok, social media etc. But behind all that there's tooooooonns of young musicians doing classic music, pop music, long music, short music, innovative music etc. and getting attention. Today anyone can create fantastic sounding music in any way they want and distribute it totally different from before. You can even distribute music free without a label. Quite mind blowing.

Also look at the streams in Spotify or Youtube. The old bands doesn't stand a chance in number of plays against new modern artists. I think Queen is the only one that really still have a huge number of plays on Spotify. Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, Billie Eilish etc. easily get the more than double (most likely quadruple) the amount of plays each month compared to Beatles, Zeppelin etc.. So people def are investing time in music. I think Weeknd Blinding Lights have like 2 billion listens every month. The closest I saw from the old era was Bohemian Rhapsody still getting over a billion plays.

Music industry has always been extremely hard imo. It has always changed rapidly and few artists can consider themselves so lucky that they have a stable income.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2021, 07:21:16 AM »
None of these - except maybe Ariich's - really account for ALL the variables.   I agree the Spotify hate is getting tired, since it ignores that the nature of the product is changing as well.   There is just SO MUCH product out there, it's ridiculous; I've written about this before.   Being a Kiss fan in the late '70s got you an album for $6.98 in January, and an album for $6.98 in October-ish.  Assuming you were old enough to see the show, that was a $11 ticket twice a year, and maybe a t-shirt for $20.  (All that is about $240 per year).   And what was coming out at the same time?  You had AC/DC, Rush, and Sabbath releasing at the same time. Van Halen just came out...  But each Tuesday - remember when albums were all released on the same day each week? - there was MAYBE one release that catered to a particular niche.

Now?  Granted the cycles are different, but for most releases, you've got standard, deluxe, and super deluxe versions.  You've got remasters and remixes and re-releases.  Touring is such that I could - non-COVID - easily see two bands a week, and the CHEAPEST ticket is $45 or so. 

So not only are things more expensive, but there's more of them.   

And with Ticketmaster; I don't like them much, but most of that is not their problem. I used to love going to the box office, giving cash money and getting a paper ticket.  But scalpers have killed that.  And speaking of scalpers, it's basic economics that concert tickets are UNDERPRICED.  There wouldn't be the resale market we see if they weren't.   In one of the lawsuits (I don't know if it was the Pearl Jam incident or not) but the settlement called for "transparency".  Now we have that, and people bitch about the "service fees" and "processing fees".   Is it really better if that wasn't there? Do you honestly think the ticket itself would be any less?  It's not all direct product, and you're seeing the Ticketmasters and LiveNations of the world contributing more on the promotion side of things, so their expenses are higher, expenses you WERE paying anyway, and weren't going to the artists in any event.   It's a false boogeyman.   (Though the complaints about ticket access are real; I live in CT and I have seen easily 25 or 30 shows at the two casinos here, and I have YET to be able to buy a ticket on the day of sale from the ticket agents.   The waits are interminable, and usually about 2, 2.5 hours in, it seems the tickets seem to switch from direct to "aftermarket", and that makes no sense to me.

Some of this is about the artist.  Recognize that you are a smaller piece of a much larger pie.   The marketplace has materially changed.   Throwing a 30 minute documentary on a "bonus DVD" doesn't justify a $25 price point for an album.  I refuse to pay that, myself, and will wait until a release is on eBay or Discogs before I buy.  I can't afford $25 per for every release I buy. 

Offline ganpondorodf

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2021, 08:01:12 AM »
Streaming services generally make me uneasy, as they can just take whatever they want away from you at any time. I would always, assuming I have the space and the money, prefer to have physical products. Not a fan of what essentially amounts to a glorified rental service, but I don't really have suggestions for an alternative in this day and age. The convenience outweighs all other factors for most people including, reluctantly, myself (I still buy physical versions of my absolute favorite movies and music releases though).

Offline ariich

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2021, 08:20:18 AM »
Streaming services generally make me uneasy, as they can just take whatever they want away from you at any time. I would always, assuming I have the space and the money, prefer to have physical products.
This is why I use both. My favourite albums, I buy. I try to find cheap deals as much as possible, sometimes I'll buy a disc second hand as you can get them insanely cheap occasionally. The rest, it's good to have them available on streaming but I won't be too distraught if they're later taken away.

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2021, 08:31:29 AM »
None of these - except maybe Ariich's - really account for ALL the variables.   I agree the Spotify hate is getting tired, since it ignores that the nature of the product is changing as well.   There is just SO MUCH product out there, it's ridiculous; I've written about this before.   Being a Kiss fan in the late '70s got you an album for $6.98 in January, and an album for $6.98 in October-ish.  Assuming you were old enough to see the show, that was a $11 ticket twice a year, and maybe a t-shirt for $20.  (All that is about $240 per year).   And what was coming out at the same time?  You had AC/DC, Rush, and Sabbath releasing at the same time. Van Halen just came out...  But each Tuesday - remember when albums were all released on the same day each week? - there was MAYBE one release that catered to a particular niche.

Now?  Granted the cycles are different, but for most releases, you've got standard, deluxe, and super deluxe versions.  You've got remasters and remixes and re-releases.  Touring is such that I could - non-COVID - easily see two bands a week, and the CHEAPEST ticket is $45 or so. 

So not only are things more expensive, but there's more of them.   

And with Ticketmaster; I don't like them much, but most of that is not their problem. I used to love going to the box office, giving cash money and getting a paper ticket.  But scalpers have killed that.  And speaking of scalpers, it's basic economics that concert tickets are UNDERPRICED.  There wouldn't be the resale market we see if they weren't.   In one of the lawsuits (I don't know if it was the Pearl Jam incident or not) but the settlement called for "transparency".  Now we have that, and people bitch about the "service fees" and "processing fees".   Is it really better if that wasn't there? Do you honestly think the ticket itself would be any less?  It's not all direct product, and you're seeing the Ticketmasters and LiveNations of the world contributing more on the promotion side of things, so their expenses are higher, expenses you WERE paying anyway, and weren't going to the artists in any event.   It's a false boogeyman.   (Though the complaints about ticket access are real; I live in CT and I have seen easily 25 or 30 shows at the two casinos here, and I have YET to be able to buy a ticket on the day of sale from the ticket agents.   The waits are interminable, and usually about 2, 2.5 hours in, it seems the tickets seem to switch from direct to "aftermarket", and that makes no sense to me.

Some of this is about the artist.  Recognize that you are a smaller piece of a much larger pie.   The marketplace has materially changed.   Throwing a 30 minute documentary on a "bonus DVD" doesn't justify a $25 price point for an album.  I refuse to pay that, myself, and will wait until a release is on eBay or Discogs before I buy.  I can't afford $25 per for every release I buy.

You made a great example of money being an issue.

Music and live music is starting to become a luxury or a privilege that only the middle class and elite can attend. Especially those big bands.

Also, there's locality and it's market base. There's plenty of places these big named musicians don't even bother to play at all. Because that market is not there and there is no infrastructure to be able to accomodate the musicians performance stage set up. Here in New Mexico we don't have a big and small enough structure for bands to easily come here, they would either have to downsize their stage production or bill with another big band to utilize the bigger amphitheatre. New Mexico is not a big music market, especially for progressive metal. It's a rap, pop, country, mainstream market. Dark Tranquility when they come here plays to a crowd of about 100 -200 people as a headliner.

If you have the funds you can hire the musicians to play a private show. It's how the Navajo Nation gets bands to play for their Navajo Nation Fair, they got Korn, Mushroomhead, and Nelly to play at their fairs.

Money is another factor as people do not have the funds to spend on the expensive price of music and seeing concerts. Which the poor have no interest in seeing live music or buying music because they can't afford the luxury of listening to music. All they know is the noise machines.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 08:45:10 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2021, 08:41:24 AM »
The thing is, most people don't want to pay a lot of money for music. We here, on a forum for a niche band in a niche genre may be different, but even I cannot buy every record I want to listen to.

So people look for cheap alternatives, first it was copying it with tapes and later cdrs, then it was filesharing, now it is streaming. Sure sucks for the artist but I don't see how it could be changed.

And it's not that spotify makes millions of dollars for themselves that they could use to pay the artists better. So it's either ditch the free membership and do without revenue from advertisements, or raise the membership fee and lose (probably) a lot of paying customers. Either way the artist is most certainly not getting more money.

Music is a part of the societies culture. Every society participates in music. However they decide to utilize music is the question. And then within the societies, who got to participate in the listening and the making of music. It wasn't the poor that's for sure. It was those that could afford to pay to see Mozart and buy those fancy brass and ivory musical instruments.

There are bands that are blending their traditional cultural music with modernized genres...such as The Hu. By utilizing their Traditional music and instruments. They break that barrier for anyone to be able to create music and are showing their cultural sovereignty over the western civilization society.

African bands are having to create their own music because no bands ever go to Africa. Same with middle east for with metal music, and even at that, in their cultural societies, music is breaking taboos.

Hell, it hasn't even been a hundred years since people in this country thought dancing and jiving makes people wild and crazy and chaotic with the jazz. Well, people still think this with Twerking.

People lose themselves in music and dance with the beat and I find it hilarious how a lot of caucasian people can not keep a beat. My brother's music teacher even told him this, because he could easily keep a beat while they had to teach the class how to keep a simple 4/4 beat.  :biggrin:

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Offline HOF

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2021, 09:36:35 AM »
Streaming services generally make me uneasy, as they can just take whatever they want away from you at any time. I would always, assuming I have the space and the money, prefer to have physical products. Not a fan of what essentially amounts to a glorified rental service, but I don't really have suggestions for an alternative in this day and age. The convenience outweighs all other factors for most people including, reluctantly, myself (I still buy physical versions of my absolute favorite movies and music releases though).

I think streaming allows for the best of both worlds if people are willing to go the extra mile to support the artists they like the most. It has allowed access to the market for all levels of artists, and you as the consumer have access to everything at your fingertips. The ability to discover new stuff is amazing. But you have to make sure that you are still financially supporting the artists you enjoy in some other way if you want them to stay afloat and continue to make music. Either buying the physical product or going to a show or doing the patreon type thing, there are lots of ways you can support artists and also use streaming services.

Offline emtee

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2021, 10:23:39 AM »
What I've never understood is how Youtube gets away with millions of full albums being posted on their site.

Offline HOF

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2021, 10:30:33 AM »
What I've never understood is how Youtube gets away with millions of full albums being posted on their site.

I’m sure not all of them are monetized, but I believe if you are the actual rights holder you can collect the add revenue from them even if some average Joe is the one who uploads it (or block it at least).

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2021, 07:02:45 PM »
Before I start, just to explain that I'm replying to your post Scotty but I'm not picking on you at all, it was just the first one that responded to mine and covered the points I wanted to make.
No offense taken at all ariich - I appreciate your explanation. That along with that video that Pettor posted have really given me pause to rethink my view of streaming companies. Still not really my thing - I prefer to buy physical product and have it ripped to my computer/phone for listening - but I'm starting to see that maybe it's not the evil that I've thought it was.
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Offline ariich

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2021, 12:05:20 AM »
Before I start, just to explain that I'm replying to your post Scotty but I'm not picking on you at all, it was just the first one that responded to mine and covered the points I wanted to make.
No offense taken at all ariich - I appreciate your explanation. That along with that video that Pettor posted have really given me pause to rethink my view of streaming companies. Still not really my thing - I prefer to buy physical product and have it ripped to my computer/phone for listening - but I'm starting to see that maybe it's not the evil that I've thought it was.
Completely understandable, and you're not alone as a consumer in preferring to own things yourself (and for me it's a mix of the two).

Another thing I think contributes to the misunderstanding is the fact that, at first, streaming services genuinely weren't contributing much financially. Not because of their model which I don't think has changed much, but because they weren't actually being used that widely at first. So we had this situation where this new type of service was coming in and was understandably seen alongside illegal downloads as contributing to the collapse in CD sales, but wasn't contributing much revenue of its own. So 10 years ago that was a very valid and meaningful concern, and I think most people just haven't really paid attention to what's happened since.

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Offline ytserush

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Re: Spotify Celebrates 100th Dollar Given To Artists
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2021, 09:32:11 PM »
This is funny and simultaneously not funny. I am not a music streamer and the way Spotify screws artists is a main reason I want nothing to do with it.

https://www.theonion.com/spotify-celebrates-100th-dollar-given-to-artists-1844943985

NEW YORK—Proudly declaring that they never thought they’d see the day their vision would finally be realized, streaming service Spotify reportedly celebrated Thursday the platform’s 100th dollar given to artists. “When we launched Spotify in 2008, our mission was to reward artists when customers listened to music, and today, we finally reached three figures in artist payouts,” said Spotify CEO Daniel Ek, posing with a giant check for a $0.00000029 payout to Dua Lipa for her song “Break My Heart” that propelled the world’s musicians past a collective $100 in earnings. “This is an absolute milestone for a musician-oriented platform like Spotify, and confirms what we believed when we started, which is that music-streaming platforms can be a reliable way to help bands and artists earn pennies or even nickels for their work. But this achievement is really about the artists on our platform. Spotify couldn’t have done it without you.” To celebrate the occasion, Spotify also reportedly unveiled a new commemorative playlist of its highest-earning artists, with all proceeds from plays going to Spotify.

Subject screamed Onion. Thanks for the simultaneous laugh/cry.