Author Topic: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga  (Read 1202 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« on: November 02, 2023, 11:29:13 AM »
This is a touchy subject, so if you want to post about it, if there is anything remotely controversial about your post, PLEASE take a deep breath, count to ten, and think BEFORE you hit the "post" button.  This thread is not intended to get too political, or to cause strife.  Just to respectfully air thoughts and grapple with the issues, for those who care to discuss them.  Hopefully, we can do so without this becoming a thread that has to either be locked or sent to P/R.  Maybe that's inevitable, but I hope not.

With that out of the way, I'm struggling to decide how I feel about the whole thing as far as what Marvel should do.  My personal feeling is, at present: nothing.  The trial has not happened yet.  He has not been convicted of anything and all the evidence is not out there yet.  I don't want to rush to judgment one way or the other without knowing the whole story, and in situations like these, it is FAR too common to hear one side's story without yet having the full story from the other side and think there is only one correct conclusion, only to then hear the other side's case and then have serious doubts about the earlier position, if not flip positions entirely.

But that all changes once the evidence comes out.  Maybe he is convicted and maybe he isn't.  But if he isn't, maybe there wasn't enough evidence to convict, but still more than enough for the court of public opinion to rightly conclude that he did a lot of despicable stuff.  So the real question is, what should Marvel do then?

I've seen this quote pop up in a couple of articles now, and I just don't think it's a helpful take:  "'Marvel is truly f**ked with the whole Kang angle,' one source said. 'And they haven’t had an opportunity to rewrite until very recently [because of the WGA strike]. But I don’t see a path to how they move forward with him.'"

Personally, my thought process is complicated, and I'm not sure.  If he truly is a bad dude, what is or should be the outcome on his career?  I mean, if he sexually assaulted someone in connection with a Marvel project, he's fired, obviously.  They have jurisdiction over that as his employer.  But that isn't what we're talking about, so the issue is, should they take action for something he may have done outside of Marvel (again, assuming there is sufficient evidence--if there ultimately isn't, I personally feel that "canceling" someone over just public perception is wrong), what should they do?  I'm not saying he should get a "pass" and that's it's all "hey, *wink, wink*--he's a good actor, and it's not our problem."  But to me, it's really not their problem.  And I have a hard time feeling that it's justifiable to punish someone for something they do that has nothing to do with you.  But I also acknowledge that it's hard to separate the two when your business is all about public perception, as is the case in the entertainment industry.  And if someone's conduct tarnishes your brand image, you get to do what you need to do to fix that.  I get that too.  I struggle with how I would personally feel if, again, it comes out that he likely did some bad stuff.  If that happens and Marvel still uses him as Kang going forward (and from a storytelling perspective, I hope it does work out such that he can continue in that role, because I feel like he is KILLING IT), how will I feel about that?  Would I feel compelled to stop watching?  Maybe.  I'm not sure.  In similar situations where a band, or a sports team, or an entertainment franchise has someone who does despicable things, it's a "case-by-case" basis for me in terms of my threshold.  It depends on a lot of factors, like what the specific conduct was, how long ago it happened (not that there is a statute of limitations on being despicable, but time changes a person, and maybe they have grown and aren't quite that person anymore if it happened a long time ago), whether they are remorseful, etc.  I just don't know how I feel, but thought this is as good a place as any to try to hash it out, where we have enough folks that are thoughtful and level headed enough to try.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 11:34:35 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline Lonk

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2023, 11:38:23 AM »
I honestly don't know either.

I think he's doing a great job with the roles he has been given. It would be a shame to change direction so far into it. But at the same time, even if he is not convicted, Marvel is running a risk since as you mentioned, public opinion matters, and using him could have a financial impact after all. From a business stand point, I would say Marvel should just wait and see. I get that this thing has been dragging a bit but I guess that's how the system works. If it comes out that he is innocent, keep using him and maybe have some marketing campaign to restore his image a bit.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2023, 11:46:24 AM »
I personally am at the opposite end of your opinion that he's 'killing it' as Kang.....I see him as a really weak actor. He's done nothing in that role that doesn't feel robotic or fake and amateurish and it's tough to engage in any scene he's in. But....that's neither here nor there on your main point.

I think you have to see how the trial goes and even 'if' he's found innocent.....Marvel has to decide how much the attention and allegations (true or not) and perception of him is going to affect the movies/shows he would be in? If it's not fiscally responsible to keep him employed, you recast and/or write him out in a creative manner and move on.  They also may face instances of other actors not wanting to be involved with him due to all this...again....no matter the eventual outcome. That role isn't really all that important anyway despite it trying to be pimped and touted a such. It's been a pretty weak and haphazard storyline .....but Marvel has committed to telling it so a recast may be best because he's dropped the ball in that role.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2023, 11:55:46 AM »
They also may face instances of other actors not wanting to be involved with him due to all this...again....no matter the eventual outcome.

Yeah, that's actually a great point that I hadn't thought of.  And that's very real too.  But at the same time, I also feel like that's a complicated issue as well.  Not from a business standpoint, as "Marvel The Business" will take whatever steps it needs to in that regard.  But I mean it's complicated in terms of the personal dynamics of that.  On one hand, it's somewhat hypocritical in that entertainers often get on a soapbox and take ill-informed moral positions on issues that ultimately don't make sense, only to dispense with those moral convictions and circle the wagons when convenient.  Or they may draw their line in the sand over one type of despicable conduct while winking and overlooking things that are equally reprehensible.  On the other hand, that's not everybody, and I can respect someone taking a stand for something they feel strongly about as long as they are consistent, whether I disagree with them or not. 

That role isn't really all that important anyway despite it trying to be pimped and touted a such.

I'm not following you here.  How is it not important?  It's central to the overall main plotline of phases 4-6, culminating in the next two Avengers films.  Can you elaborate?
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2023, 11:59:17 AM »
I'm in the same "I don't know" group as you all. I'm fine with the wait and see approach (as I would be in all situations like this without rock solid public evidence), but if I were Marvel, I'd start using different actors as Kang variants. It would make the transition to a potential recast Kang feel less obvious and weird. While Majors' performances have been mostly good (I'm on the fence about Timely in Loki), I don't think he's been so mid-blowingly awesome that they need to stick with him. I also think they'll be in a awkward spot if Majors is acquitted on the charges, but the trial exposed some less than flattering stuff about him.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2023, 12:10:52 PM »

That role isn't really all that important anyway despite it trying to be pimped and touted a such.

I'm not following you here.  How is it not important?  It's central to the overall main plotline of phases 4-6, culminating in the next two Avengers films.  Can you elaborate?

Maybe 'important' is the wrong word. Actually, it is the wrong word. Let me rephrase and explain where I'm coming from.

I've admitted that I'm not nearly as versed a Marvel connoisseur as several of you on the forum are....so maybe that is the immediate disconnect between me and a few of you when viewing/consuming this Marvel content. That being said, Marvel did a great job in that whole first phase or whatever you call it in making that Thanos/Infinity stone saga compelling and something I really wanted to watch unfold. It was told in a really cool way with some great acting that produced endearing characters.

So...I'll replace the word 'important' with 'compelling'. Because to me....the average Marvel viewer....all of these second phase characters and the underlying storyline is just not compelling. On any level. The characters aren't as compelling, the actors in the roles don't invoke any real emotion.....and the underlying storyline is pretty weak. That's all in the fact of what it's trying to follow and I think Marvel is suffering from doing the first phase stuff too good. It's impossible to follow.

 It's like S2 of 'True Detective'  Had it been S1 everyone would probably say what a great job Vince Vaughn and Colin Farrell did and what a cool story it was. BUT....they had to follow the incredible awesomeness of S1's story and acting of Woody and Matthew so it was weaker just for that factor.

I just haven't seen ANY of the post Infinity War Marvel content as very good. It's all been average....across the board....writing, acting and story.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2023, 12:41:36 PM »
OK, I follow you.  And we can probably more appropriately discuss that in the main Marvel thread, but briefly:  I agree that it's impossible to follow phases 1-3 due to how well done that all was, on so many unprecedented levels.  I think there are a lot of fans who can be objective enough to fully admit that and still enjoy whatever comes next, knowing it will never rise to those heights.  A lot of us, myself included, just wanted something that was consistent, and had the same level of quality as the earlier work, even if the storyline wasn't ever going to be as compelling.  And I think what they are building toward in terms of the Kang saga could be very satisfying in that regard.  But the three biggest problems I see are:  (1) there are too many disparate story threads going in too many different directions for it to feel connected (and some of them really aren't--e.g., the Wakanda/Talokan thread in Wakanda Forever doesn't appear connected to any of the multiverse stuff, and is one of the better entries in recent times; the armor wars and Captain America threads also don't appear related to the multiverse and appear to be their own thing; same with Secret Wars; same with Moon Knight, Werewolf by Night, and some other properties); (2) there are too many characters, and given the number of films and shows, we get stretches of time in between appearances from a lot of characters that keep us from really feeling connected to them emotionally like we did with the main characters of phases 1-3; and (3) the storylines have just been sloppily executed in many cases, both individually, and in terms of connectivity to the overall MCU.  It's a shame because I think all of these problems could have been avoided, and the overall Marvel "product" did not have to suffer the way it has. 
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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2023, 01:19:21 PM »
I’m out of the loop. Didn’t know about any of this.

Having caught up a little on what’s going on, I don’t have an opinion on what they should do (well, I won’t share it), but it seems like they could easily recast him without any major issues. It’s not like he’s already starred in a feature film. I didn’t even know his name until he showed back up in Loki last week.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 01:25:23 PM by HOF »

Offline Lonk

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2023, 01:34:25 PM »
I’m out of the loop. Didn’t know about any of this.

Having caught up a little on what’s going on, I don’t have an opinion on what they should do (well, I won’t share it), but it seems like they could easily recast him without any major issues. It’s not like he’s already starred in a feature film. I didn’t even know his name until he showed back up in Loki last week.

He was in Ant-Man and the Wasp (and the post credit scenes shows us just a few versions of him).
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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2023, 01:37:29 PM »
Ah, so he was a main character there? Thought he was only in the post-credit scene. Still, actors change sometimes in franchises. Probably not the end of the world for this one to change. It’s not like you’re re-casting Iron Man. There have been millions of Spider Man and Batman actors.

Offline Lonk

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2023, 02:10:08 PM »
Ah, so he was a main character there? Thought he was only in the post-credit scene. Still, actors change sometimes in franchises. Probably not the end of the world for this one to change. It’s not like you’re re-casting Iron Man. There have been millions of Spider Man and Batman actors.
Oh, 100%. And I think I mentioned it here, but the latest Guardians of the Galaxy movie gave Marvel a way to do it. The villain could be written in as some sort of "variant" of kang, so they could use the same actor (Chukwudi Iwuji) for future movies. A recast won't be the end of the world if it happens.
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2023, 02:50:49 PM »
I saw a recent article where an exec said that Marvel is "f*cked" due to how the Loki series is ending in regards to Kang. I mean, an upcoming movie is already titled Avengers: The Kang Dynasty so they are going to have to do something if they don't move forward with Majors.

I know a very loud batch of 'fans' would vociferously complain about this, but remember that Sylvie is a variant of Loki so there theoretically could be a female Kang out there somewhere, maybe? They did recast Rhodey, but that was early on. Majors is very established now so I get the problem. Can't say I have a great answer.

With as stupid slow as our justice system is, I doubt they could wrap this before Majors would be needed again.

Guess I said a lot of nothing here.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2023, 02:57:26 PM »
My current opinion is to wait to see how the allegations play out...innocent before proven and all that, but if he does turn out to be the shit he's being accused of, my vote is for Marvel to just re-cast Kang. They can't re-write the saga, that's painfully obvious.

Offline The Realm

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2023, 03:09:25 PM »
The whole Kang thing isn't working for me and I agree with gmillerdrake that Kang isn't compelling. I think there is a strong chance the Kang character is replaced or at least recast as I don't see the current actor continuing in the role no matter what the outcome of his offscreen issues is. I feel the damage has been done. Even though an upcoming Avengers movie is called 'The Kang Dynasty' doesn't mean it can't be retitled or changed.

We may have a bit of an idea towards this after the end of Loki or we may not. Also if Loki lands the ending it may even possibly have the chance to change my opinion but I'm not hopeful of that at the moment.

Offline lonestar

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2023, 04:32:45 PM »
If Disney follows suite, allegations are usually enough for separation, but I think with how integral Majors is to everything for the next few years, that's going to be tested in this case.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2023, 08:47:49 PM »
Just remembering back to when Thanos was only making minor cameos during after credit sequences, and how many fans were thinking they were screwing things up by dragging it out so long…and how if they keep doing this no one is going to care anymore.

It’s still too early. Kang was only introduced at the end of Loki S1 a year ago and 1 version made 1 appearance on film.

Be patient.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2023, 10:21:30 AM »
There are reports out that Marvel has already considered changing the big bad for this chapter from Kang to Doctor Doom.  Which could work, with the right story and right actor, but IMO, Doom is too good to be Kang's sloppy seconds.  Kang has a huge history as a primary Avengers villain, and I would prefer to see him get his due.

Seems that if they decide to move on from Majors (which I assume they will do at some point), it would be simple enough to hire another actor, and you wouldn't even have to substitute him, really; the new actor could be a variant that kills Kang Prime and takes his place (or some other convolute comics thing).  Problem solved.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2023, 10:50:43 AM »
There are reports out that Marvel has already considered changing the big bad for this chapter from Kang to Doctor Doom. 

If what I initially saw is correct, all the articles now claiming this are being grossly irresponsible in misreporting what happened.  So, first off, the info came from an unnamed, unidentified source that allegedly was at the Marvel top brass retreat.  Which means, first and foremost, take what is said with a grain of salt because it cannot be confirmed.  And what this unidentified source actually allegedly said is that that was one of the many things thrown out there on the table when they were just informally discussing.  Not that it was being debated or voted on as a viable option.  Not that a decision was made.  Not even that anyone with decision making authority said, "yeah, let's do that."  It was just one of many ideas thrown out there on the table, and there is no indication that it went any farther than that.

So, could they?  Sure.  But is it actually being realistically considered?  There's nothing to suggest that.

I guess this is just the week of leaping to conclusions.  Where have we seen this before?  :justjen
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2023, 12:44:19 PM »
Regardless of the ongoing issues with the actor, I personally feel they screwed up in a massive way with the character of Kang in the final act of Antman 3.   Having your big bad lose a fist fight with one of the weaker Avengers was a baffling decision.   


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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2023, 03:26:42 PM »
I'm open to the idea of recasting Majors' role if necessary. Ravona would make an interesting choice for a replacement, considering her established connection to Kang in Season 2 of "Loki," where it was revealed she was instrumental in his achievements but had her memory wiped. This backstory could pave the way for her to emerge as a Kang variant, similar to how Sylvie is a variant of Loki. We're already familiar with her from the first two seasons, and I think her portrayal has been solid. The only potential issue I foresee is the backlash from those who might oppose her taking a leading role due to her being a black woman. Personally, as long as the character is well-developed and the writing is strong, I have no issues with it.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Marvel / Jonathan Majors saga
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2023, 05:47:12 PM »
Regardless of the ongoing issues with the actor, I personally feel they screwed up in a massive way with the character of Kang in the final act of Antman 3.   Having your big bad lose a fist fight with one of the weaker Avengers was a baffling decision.
Yeah, that was pretty weird.
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