Is DT truly "uninspired?"

[darkshade]

I personally think "it sounds uninspired" is a perfectly reasonable critique to make.  To imply that an artist will always be bursting at the seems with energy and creativity, especially when this is a business, is just not realistic.    There will be times when the members of Dream Theater will be 100% inspired and times when they may not be.  That is just human nature and is the same for every band and every artist throughout time.

For example, had Portnoy, who admittedly was tired and ready for a break been involved in the entire creative process for ADTOE, I'm guessing the lack of inspiration would have shined through in his playing.

I don't think its an insult... I think it's an acknowledgement of human nature.   If something comes off as lazy songwriting to me I don't think it means "I don't like the band anymore".  It just means I know they are capable of better as I have heard them make more creative choices. 

With all that said, I like the new album and I'm happy they still have it in them.

Jumping off this, as you mentioned Portnoy, and the last DT album he appeared on is a good focal point of the band sounding uninspired. As much as I enjoy BC&SL, and I do think it is one of the band's better albums compared to recent work, using the word "uninspired" might be appropriate in describing the album. There are moments that make me go "well they could have worked on that transition a little more" or "his playing sounds like he's going through the motions" in regards to MP's playing, Rudess' playing, or really anyone in the band at the time. JLB's vocal melodies tend to follow what the other instruments are playing or vis versa all over the album, and the album features a 12 minute song that reprises themes from previous songs on previous albums and only includes about a minute of new material (which works in context of the larger piece, but I always wished it had more fresh meat on it.) JP even wrote a song about writer's block (Wither) and then in the aftermath of MP leaving and in context of ADTOE following it up with a very energetic album, looking back they were clearly sounding tired on BC&SL, MP for sure.. Of course, there are moments of clear inspiration on BC&SL (first half of ANTR, guitar solo in TBOT, the entirety of TCOT overall, etc...)

MM perhaps gave the band the B vitamin shot it needed, tightened up their sound, and I'd say they were inspired on ADTOE after the fall out of MP leaving, but since then they've been coasting on that wave since. Not uninspired, more coasting, dare I say, resting on their laurels on what they can do with the prog-metal sound they helped create throughout the 90s and 2000s. I think that while DT always have a plethora of ideas, it's how they construct those ideas which I feel has become uninspiring. The composing side of the band. The band sounded tired on BC&SL, but you can't tell me they weren't trying new things on that album, while keeping their core sound intact. They rarely take compositional risks anymore. Everything CAN be traced back to something they did in the past, without pointing out how they still have one foot pointed towards the future. You can have complex parts or sections of songs, you can get the fastest drummer in the world who can handle just about anything you throw at him, but in the big picture, the band has devolved into writing mostly ABABCAB song structures 9 times out of 10 whereas they were more liberal with how the song constructions went all the way up until and including ADTOE, which itself "borrowed" the adventurousness of IaW. Since they decided to "simplify" their approach on DT12, shortening the song lengths and whatnot, they have lost a step. The over-reliance on metal and less on prog that has followed the band since Systematic Chaos has not helped matters imo..

DoT and AV are a step in the right direction, and I would say AV is the most inspired they've sounded in many years, but there is a certain Je ne sais quoi that has been lacking since Portnoy's departure.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

the 'uninspired' criticism implies the band is just going through the motions, is being indifferent towards their song writing or is just churning out empty music devoid of passion. It's an asinine thing to say and has no basis in anything objective. If a band decides not to venture outside their core sound, it doesn't mean they are uninspired.

If you are not connecting to DT's music as much that is totally fine. You don't even need an explanation beyond that. But to say it's because the band is essentially just going through the motions is dumb-- and I've read a lot of dumb commentary online over the years. I understand the difficulty and in some cases impossibility of describing one's experience listening to music, but let's please try NOT to chalk things up to the band's alleged indifference to their craft. 

[LKap13]

View is incredibly, incredibly inspired.

There has been DT music in the past that's seemed "uninspired", but let's just enjoy this phase they're at

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Also wanted to say that I think a lot of fans don't really get the business side of this industry. An established band--even in Prog-- is generally not going to shake up their core sound once they're operating under a well known name and once their incomes depend on thousands of fans coming to the show. Here are there it happens, and it can be risky, but if a band evolves its sound over a course of decades, it's usually to appeal to a broader audience-- not a smaller audience. It's just the nature of doing this job and trying to make an actual living off it that takes you into your later years. It doesn't mean you're not inspired when you are writing for a particular kind of sound-- it just means you know what your fans expect to hear and that's what you're delivering to make them happy.

[Dream Team]

So writing a ballad for the sake of it would be less uninspired ?

I'd rather any new DT album have 70 minutes of their best work on it and not box ticking.

If it's 70 minutes of balladry or 70 minutes of all out prog metal - whatever. Bands should just WRITE and not worry about what comes out.

100% accurate. “Where’s the ballad?” Seriously? Instead of forcing a ballad they had soft acoustic sections in several songs. What the hell’s wrong with that?

[svisser]

So writing a ballad for the sake of it would be less uninspired ?

I'd rather any new DT album have 70 minutes of their best work on it and not box ticking.

If it's 70 minutes of balladry or 70 minutes of all out prog metal - whatever. Bands should just WRITE and not worry about what comes out.

100% accurate. “Where’s the ballad?” Seriously? Instead of forcing a ballad they had soft acoustic sections in several songs. What the hell’s wrong with that?

It was a good move. The ballad on D/T was pretty bland. I guess you can say it felt........uninspired 

[KevShmev]

Well first of all… six degrees is a consensus top 3 album for them so I’m not sure where you’re getting your six degrees comments.  Of course not everybody loved it or has it top 3 but it’s widely considered top 3 with the only possible exception being “awake” inserted in there.
 

I think you have Awake and Six Degrees backwards.  I just looked at three different sites with a lot of ratings, and Awake was ahead of Six Degrees at two of them, and at the 3rd they were tied (but Awake had more votes total, so that would finish higher due to a larger sample size).  Not trying to quibble too much over that, but just pointing out that while Six Degrees is highly regarded album by the fans, saying is a consensus top 4 album be far more accurate than saying it is a consensus top 3.

Also, INB4 the predictable posters miss the point and say, "But I like Six Degrees more!!"

[darkshade]

I've seen some say "people use the word 'uninspired' when they don't like the music anymore"
like you don't like metal or prog metal anymore.

I still highly enjoy DT's first 8 albums immensely. I still get some satisfaction from the best stuff off of SC, BC&SL, and ADTOE.
It's not like they completely changed musical directions over the last 10 years or so.
So shouldn't I still enjoy their last 4 albums as much as the rest, even though I don't?
Could an uninspired DT be most other band's best efforts?

[lovethedrake]

Well first of all… six degrees is a consensus top 3 album for them so I’m not sure where you’re getting your six degrees comments.  Of course not everybody loved it or has it top 3 but it’s widely considered top 3 with the only possible exception being “awake” inserted in there.
 

I think you have Awake and Six Degrees backwards.  I just looked at three different sites with a lot of ratings, and Awake was ahead of Six Degrees at two of them, and at the 3rd they were tied (but Awake had more votes total, so that would finish higher due to a larger sample size).  Not trying to quibble too much over that, but just pointing out that while Six Degrees is highly regarded album by the fans, saying is a consensus top 4 album be far more accurate than saying it is a consensus top 3.

Also, INB4 the predictable posters miss the point and say, "But I like Six Degrees more!!"

Fair thanks for point it out.  Top 4 works

[erwinrafael]

Since they decided to "simplify" their approach on DT12, shortening the song lengths and whatnot, they have lost a step. The over-reliance on metal and less on prog that has followed the band since Systematic Chaos has not helped matters imo..

I don't get how the self-titled became your poster boy of "uninspired." At that point in their career, Dream Theater has been so accustomed to writing long songs with extended instrumentals since SDOIT. In many interviews, they said that in DT12 they actually consciously challenged themselves to not rely on that crutch and deliberately tried to write in a more concise manner. DELIBERATELY. You may not like their output in that album, but given how the songs were a product of a conscious effort by the band to challenge themselves to write in a manner that they have not done for over a decade, I would say "uninspired" is just a projection of your appreciation of the songs, not a description of the effort put in by the band in that album.

[KevShmev]

Well first of all… six degrees is a consensus top 3 album for them so I’m not sure where you’re getting your six degrees comments.  Of course not everybody loved it or has it top 3 but it’s widely considered top 3 with the only possible exception being “awake” inserted in there.
 

I think you have Awake and Six Degrees backwards.  I just looked at three different sites with a lot of ratings, and Awake was ahead of Six Degrees at two of them, and at the 3rd they were tied (but Awake had more votes total, so that would finish higher due to a larger sample size).  Not trying to quibble too much over that, but just pointing out that while Six Degrees is highly regarded album by the fans, saying is a consensus top 4 album be far more accurate than saying it is a consensus top 3.

Also, INB4 the predictable posters miss the point and say, "But I like Six Degrees more!!"

Fair thanks for point it out.  Top 4 works

 

[Dedalus]

Some great posts here (not all, some I found uninspired  ).

Especially Enigmachine.

It was a good read.   

[RoeDent]

To answer the question, no.  Anyone who would say they are "uninspired" is probably just grasping for a big sounding word to hide behind and somehow blame the band for the fact that their own personal taste and DT's music just aren't a match, for whatever reason.  I don't think "uninspired" could possibly apply to DT in any context.

It doesn't make our opinions any more or less valid, sir.

An inspired DT song now would sound different to what they've done before. The new album sounds stale. I don't hear the creative inspiration in it, despite the new studio and everything. While I guess I'm glad the band finally realize James's vocal limitation now, it has resulted in a less inspired product this time around. Less varied. Where's the ballad, for instance?

Finally! An album without the obligatory same-old piano-and-vocal track that adds absolutely nothing to my enjoyment of their discography.

But it is absolutely pivotal to adding *variety* to an album. Treating each album as its own distinct entity, the ballad is essential in terms of album flow. With View they basically wrote the same song seven times. I was hoping for some variety in the middle of Sleeping Giant, perhaps a softer passage like the piano interlude in Barstool Warrior, but they just went into yet another soulless technical instrumental.

[erciccio]

Well, it's very difficult to be objective about the word "uninspired", there's not a clear metric to measure inspiration, of course.

We have a few hints on where the inspiration might have come from, though.
https://www.guitarworld.com/features/john-petrucci-dream-theater-view-from-the-top-of-the-world
A few points that come our are (from this and other interviews):
 - they got into the studio with basically no ideas, and without a clear direction for the album
 - many instrumental parts are improvised (not a big surprise)
 - they wrote most songs together, as a band
 - as a producer, JP wanted to try a few new things, but eventually decided to keep it safe and go back to doing things as usual

I would add (but this is just my opinion) that quite a few songs were born from a "rhythmical" idea, more than a melody or a chord progression (e.g. the 5+5+7 of the Alien, the 12+11 of the title track, and the syncopated riff in SG)

What I can say, is that I personally don't like the outcome of this approach that much...

I preferred for example albums such as TA and ADTOE, where most of the ideas were driven by JP and JR, and the apparent focus was more on the "melody" rather then on the "energy/ rhythm"

[erwinrafael]

With View they basically wrote the same song seven times.

Wrote the same song seven times? These hyperboles are what make discussions like these go nowhere.

Inspiration is a subjective state of mind. How somebody can convincingly deduce the inspiration (or lack thereof) that went into the creative process of the band members and be confident about the deduction is beyond me. I am a freaking social scientist who teaches research methods, including qualitative inquiry and interpretive methods, and I wouldn't dare deduce the band members' subjective states just by listening to their output. We have a principle, "observe the observer." What the observer is saying says more about the observer than the object being observed.

[RoeDent]

You're right, we can't. But if I think they sound uninspired, I'm allowed to say they sound uninspired. Whether that's the truth or not is irrelevant.

[Enigmachine]

You're allowed to say it just as much others are allowed to call it out for being shallow and at the very least borderline insulting pseudo-critique (which I believe "soulless" falls into as well). Also, if you think songs like The Alien, Invisible Monster, Transcending Time and the epic are "basically the same song", then I really don't know what to tell you.

[RoeDent]

Transcending Time is The Looking Glass which is every Rush song ever.

Also how ironic that the tables have turned. It's your fault for hating on The Astonishing, the boldest most inspired work DT has ever done, that DT have played it safe since.

[erwinrafael]

"With View they basically wrote the same song seven times"

Then proceeds to point out similarity of Transcending Time to a song in another album.

[Lax]

DT is really a band that has songs for everyone, each album is different.
Times changes too, pleasing everyone is an impossible task.

I feel a difference after octavarium until AVFTTOTW and the only two things happening are :
-Portnoy becoming lazy and then replaced, mangini finding his place in the band and refining his drumkit sound.
-Labrie's voice losing octaves and reliability.

The remaining are poor production choices leading to bad sounding mixes.

With this latest album, we have vibes from previous albums, crazy stuff from ragtime to mozart, an awesome mix (and it shows how refined and great mangini's drumming is).

A lot of petrucci chug chug, rudess being buried, labrie's voice a little neutered, that changes a lot the sound of an album, and that's maybe the modern DT that people think uninspired.

[erwinrafael]

Is Rudess really buried? I can't imagine him being more in front without competing with the frequencies of the busy cymbals of Mangini in this album.

[Dedalus]

"With View they basically wrote the same song seven times"

Then proceeds to point out similarity of Transcending Time to a song in another album.

 

[hefdaddy42]

With View they basically wrote the same song seven times.

No they didn't.

I don't care if you don't like the album as a whole, or don't like the individual songs.  But your statement above just isn't true.

[Dedalus]

The problem with the term "uninspired" is that it doesn't mean shit.

If someone tells me they are disappointed with the path Opeth has taken and gives the reasons for the lack of harsh vocals, the abandonment of Death Metal and even says they think the sound is a bit of an old derivative prog, I can even understand the person's feeling about the current band.

But if someone turns around and says "I'm disappointed with the new Opeth, it sounds uninspired" I don't know what the fuck that person means.

So people might think such a thing is uninspired and use that term... I just think they should be smart enough to know that it doesn't mean anything to the listener.

[hunnus2000]

All the boys in DT are masters of their craft. They don't need to rely on inspiration to write good music. 

[Stadler]

Since they decided to "simplify" their approach on DT12, shortening the song lengths and whatnot, they have lost a step. The over-reliance on metal and less on prog that has followed the band since Systematic Chaos has not helped matters imo..

I don't get how the self-titled became your poster boy of "uninspired." At that point in their career, Dream Theater has been so accustomed to writing long songs with extended instrumentals since SDOIT. In many interviews, they said that in DT12 they actually consciously challenged themselves to not rely on that crutch and deliberately tried to write in a more concise manner. DELIBERATELY. You may not like their output in that album, but given how the songs were a product of a conscious effort by the band to challenge themselves to write in a manner that they have not done for over a decade, I would say "uninspired" is just a projection of your appreciation of the songs, not a description of the effort put in by the band in that album.

At the end of the day, though, isn't that most of the posts in this thread (and the official album thread as well)?    Other than me - who has said repeatedly this is a John Petrucci tour de force, but is also a DT album I'm struggling a bit to connect with - who here has REALLY separated their appreciation for the work of art with their personal enjoyment?   It's another debate for another thread as to whether you SHOULD separate the two, but I learned a long time ago (mid-90s if you really want to pinpoint it, then reinforced in the mid- to late 2000s) that whether I actually like something and whether something is "good" objectively (be that inspired, or innovative or any other standard you use) are by and large not related at all.

[Stadler]

I feel a difference after octavarium until AVFTTOTW and the only two things happening are :
-Portnoy becoming lazy and then replaced, mangini finding his place in the band and refining his drumkit sound.
-Labrie's voice losing octaves and reliability.

Well, there's the small problem that not all of that actually happened.   

[erwinrafael]

Since they decided to "simplify" their approach on DT12, shortening the song lengths and whatnot, they have lost a step. The over-reliance on metal and less on prog that has followed the band since Systematic Chaos has not helped matters imo..

I don't get how the self-titled became your poster boy of "uninspired." At that point in their career, Dream Theater has been so accustomed to writing long songs with extended instrumentals since SDOIT. In many interviews, they said that in DT12 they actually consciously challenged themselves to not rely on that crutch and deliberately tried to write in a more concise manner. DELIBERATELY. You may not like their output in that album, but given how the songs were a product of a conscious effort by the band to challenge themselves to write in a manner that they have not done for over a decade, I would say "uninspired" is just a projection of your appreciation of the songs, not a description of the effort put in by the band in that album.

At the end of the day, though, isn't that most of the posts in this thread (and the official album thread as well)?    Other than me - who has said repeatedly this is a John Petrucci tour de force, but is also a DT album I'm struggling a bit to connect with - who here has REALLY separated their appreciation for the work of art with their personal enjoyment?   It's another debate for another thread as to whether you SHOULD separate the two, but I learned a long time ago (mid-90s if you really want to pinpoint it, then reinforced in the mid- to late 2000s) that whether I actually like something and whether something is "good" objectively (be that inspired, or innovative or any other standard you use) are by and large not related at all.

There is a difference. I don't project what I feel about the music to the mindset of the band. I don't call them uninspired, lazy, as if I was there in the studio to see how they actually wrote their songs.

[Kotowboy]

I feel a difference after octavarium until AVFTTOTW and the only two things happening are :
-Portnoy becoming lazy and then replaced, mangini finding his place in the band and refining his drumkit sound.
-Labrie's voice losing octaves and reliability.

Well, there's the small problem that not all of that actually happened.

Not really LAZY - but his drumming did reach a point and then not progress any further. Maybe after all those drumming awards - he decided to rest on his laurels from now on.

[hunnus2000]

I feel a difference after octavarium until AVFTTOTW and the only two things happening are :
-Portnoy becoming lazy and then replaced, mangini finding his place in the band and refining his drumkit sound.
-Labrie's voice losing octaves and reliability.

Well, there's the small problem that not all of that actually happened.

Maybe he needs lessons from Mangini. 


Not really LAZY - but his drumming did reach a point and then not progress any further. Maybe after all those drumming awards - he decided to rest on his laurels from now on.

[Stadler]

Since they decided to "simplify" their approach on DT12, shortening the song lengths and whatnot, they have lost a step. The over-reliance on metal and less on prog that has followed the band since Systematic Chaos has not helped matters imo..

I don't get how the self-titled became your poster boy of "uninspired." At that point in their career, Dream Theater has been so accustomed to writing long songs with extended instrumentals since SDOIT. In many interviews, they said that in DT12 they actually consciously challenged themselves to not rely on that crutch and deliberately tried to write in a more concise manner. DELIBERATELY. You may not like their output in that album, but given how the songs were a product of a conscious effort by the band to challenge themselves to write in a manner that they have not done for over a decade, I would say "uninspired" is just a projection of your appreciation of the songs, not a description of the effort put in by the band in that album.

At the end of the day, though, isn't that most of the posts in this thread (and the official album thread as well)?    Other than me - who has said repeatedly this is a John Petrucci tour de force, but is also a DT album I'm struggling a bit to connect with - who here has REALLY separated their appreciation for the work of art with their personal enjoyment?   It's another debate for another thread as to whether you SHOULD separate the two, but I learned a long time ago (mid-90s if you really want to pinpoint it, then reinforced in the mid- to late 2000s) that whether I actually like something and whether something is "good" objectively (be that inspired, or innovative or any other standard you use) are by and large not related at all.

There is a difference. I don't project what I feel about the music to the mindset of the band. I don't call them uninspired, lazy, as if I was there in the studio to see how they actually wrote their songs.

Fair enough; and on that point we've agreed from day one.  That I (or you) feel it doesn't mean THEY thought it, whatever it is.

[Stadler]

I feel a difference after octavarium until AVFTTOTW and the only two things happening are :
-Portnoy becoming lazy and then replaced, mangini finding his place in the band and refining his drumkit sound.
-Labrie's voice losing octaves and reliability.

Well, there's the small problem that not all of that actually happened.

Not really LAZY - but his drumming did reach a point and then not progress any further. Maybe after all those drumming awards - he decided to rest on his laurels from now on.

I never really understood that criticism, to be honest.  At least how that translates into "lazy".   I've been practicing law for 25 years now; notwithstanding my time on here, I work a LOT of hours, and I'm putting a lot of effort in to reducing the risk profile of my company.  That I don't pour over obscure legal texts anymore doesn't make me "lazy".   Mike putting his energies to other skill sets besides paradiddles doesn't make him lazy.   It's a matter of taste, focus, and goals.

[Dream Team]

You're right, we can't. But if I think they sound uninspired, I'm allowed to say they sound uninspired. Whether that's the truth or not is irrelevant.

If someone were to say your posts were uninspired, what could you do to prove them wrong?

[Elite]

An inspired DT song now would sound different to what they've done before. The new album sounds stale. I don't hear the creative inspiration in it, despite the new studio and everything. While I guess I'm glad the band finally realize James's vocal limitation now, it has resulted in a less inspired product this time around. Less varied. Where's the ballad, for instance?

Finally! An album without the obligatory same-old piano-and-vocal track that adds absolutely nothing to my enjoyment of their discography.

But it is absolutely pivotal to adding *variety* to an album. Treating each album as its own distinct entity, the ballad is essential in terms of album flow. With View they basically wrote the same song seven times. I was hoping for some variety in the middle of Sleeping Giant, perhaps a softer passage like the piano interlude in Barstool Warrior, but they just went into yet another soulless technical instrumental.

No, it is not. There's a million ways of addng variety that doesn't require you to write a pointless ballad for the sake of having a ballad - again, for the sake of having so-called variety. Where is the variety in between DT's ballads then? Far From Heaven and Out of Reach (to use two recent examples) could be the same song. Swap them from their respective albums an no-one would notice (I like one of those two, by the way). Furthermore, there's proof that DT's albums do not 'need' a ballad to have variety. DT12 doesn't have one, Systematic Chaos doesn't.

Furthermore, what 'album flow' do you mean? Put the 'ballad' (or slow/short song, whatever) before the final song? (Wait for Sleep, Anna Lee, Far From Heaven, Out of Reach, The Spirit Carries On, Disappear). I mean, come on. They've done this again and again.

Let's on a different take; Dream Theater's brand of progressive metal isn't all that varied to begin with in the grand scheme of things (the last time I posted something like this, it got me into a huge discussion, so let's not to that again) and that's OKAY. They have their influences, they wear them on their sleeves. They have influenced countless other bands, including bands that literally want to sound like them, all because their stylistic choices are pretty clearly defined. You know what you can reasonably expect with a Dream Theater album, and this album basically delivered on that front. What to hear actual 'progressive' metal, you know, music in the same genre that still at least tries to push boundaries, then Dream Theater are not the band to look towards (anymore). And that too, is not a problem whatsoever.

I enjoyed the new album, just so you know.

[Ben_Jamin]

So what I am seeing is...

People want DT to make vastly different songs, like how Diablo Swing Orchestra wrote a myriad of genres in their new album Swagger and Stroll Down The Rabbit Hole.