Author Topic: Is DT truly "uninspired?"  (Read 10363 times)

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Offline svisser

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Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« on: November 07, 2021, 07:17:42 PM »
This has been on my mind for quite a long time.

I can't stand it when people say this about DT to be honest. It makes me want to know exactly what someone would define as "inspired" DT. Not what that sounded like in the past, but what that would sound like now. Like, what does a truly "inspired" new DT song sound like?  I think they have gotten pretty comfortable with themselves, but, then again, what do we expect after almost 40 years and 19 hours of music? I think they have nothing to really prove anymore. They made their mark and deserve respect for that.

I also am frustrated when people say DT needs to "reinvent" themselves. In my opinion, they did that on Six Degrees, and a lot of people shun that album because it does not sound "DT" enough. Or it is too boring. There are countless bands that have similar themes all through their discography and people love that about them. I feel that people expect more from DT due to their education. Like, having the knowledge they have should mean they have to always be fresh with whatever they do. When it reality, the band is just a bunch of guys having a good time doing what they love.

I used to be one of those that chided the band for complacency, but then I finally came around to realizing that it is what a band's sound is that defines their music. DT has a very specific sound. Just as many other bands out there do.

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Does DT need to redefine themselves to stay fresh? Or do they need to just keep doing what they are doing?

I am personally in the second camp.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 07:34:28 PM by svisser »
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Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2021, 07:57:04 PM »
Well first of all… six degrees is a consensus top 3 album for them so I’m not sure where you’re getting your six degrees comments.  Of course not everybody loved it or has it top 3 but it’s widely considered top 3 with the only possible exception being “awake” inserted in there.

I think a better album to use would be The Astonishing.   But it’s misguided to say people didn’t like it because it didn’t sound enough like Dream Theater.  I think the ambition shown on the album is the one aspect that was widely respected.    People didn’t like it because it was bloated, cheesy, and had a host of other issues.   For the record I’m a fan of The Astonishing but still feel like those complaints are warranted. 

Anyways, after my first few listens of A View I definitely felt they were uninspired.  However, the album really grew on me and is likely a top 6 album by them for me.  Maybe even top 5.  I don’t feel a lack of inspiration anymore.  Quite the contrary, however….

Although they aren’t uninspired… they are playing it a tad safe. .  For them to keep making solid albums 15 albums into their careers is very impressive.  I personally would like to see a little more risk taking but I do love the new album and like all 7 songs.

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2021, 08:00:20 PM »

I also am frustrated when people say DT needs to "reinvent" themselves. In my opinion, they did that on Six Degrees,

How did they reinvent them selves. I have never understood this. people also say it was experimental. Why? Because they had some weird ending in Misunderstood?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2021, 08:43:34 PM »

I also am frustrated when people say DT needs to "reinvent" themselves. In my opinion, they did that on Six Degrees,

How did they reinvent them selves. I have never understood this. people also say it was experimental. Why? Because they had some weird ending in Misunderstood?

I don't think they have songs before that approach the style of The Glass Prison, Misunderstood, The Great Debate, and Disappear. It is highlighted more by the contrast with Disc 2, which is more in line with the DT "sound" of I&W and SFAM.

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2021, 11:16:16 PM »
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 12:41:00 PM by ThatOneGuy2112 »

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2021, 03:00:09 AM »
An inspired DT song now would sound different to what they've done before. The new album sounds stale. I don't hear the creative inspiration in it, despite the new studio and everything. While I guess I'm glad the band finally realize James's vocal limitation now, it has resulted in a less inspired product this time around. Less varied. Where's the ballad, for instance?

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2021, 05:17:07 AM »
So writing a ballad for the sake of it would be less uninspired ?

I'd rather any new DT album have 70 minutes of their best work on it and not box ticking.

If it's 70 minutes of balladry or 70 minutes of all out prog metal - whatever. Bands should just WRITE and not worry about what comes out.


Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2021, 05:26:01 AM »
An inspired DT song now would sound different to what they've done before. The new album sounds stale. I don't hear the creative inspiration in it, despite the new studio and everything. While I guess I'm glad the band finally realize James's vocal limitation now, it has resulted in a less inspired product this time around. Less varied. Where's the ballad, for instance?
I think I'm completely opposite with everything you said here.. This new record sounds very inspired and fresh to me, and shows that the band has a lot of creativity left in their tank. It still sounds like Dream Theater, but with classic meets modern touch.   There's plenty of emotional sections throughout this album that more than make up for that missing ballad. 
I respect your opinion, but this release is anything but stale..   
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 05:43:49 AM by Architeuthis »
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2021, 08:02:09 AM »
I think a lot of DT fans say that the band are "uninspired" when really what they mean is "this type of music is no longer inspiring to me".
I think DT are obviously inspired, or they would not create.

I have surely felt "uninspired" by metal and prog many times. I've gone through phases where I just didn't listen to it at all, sometimes for years.
It would inaccurate to frame this as my favorite prog and metal bands doing something wrong or releasing bad music - obviously plenty of people still love it. It just so happens that I'm not always in the mood for it.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2021, 08:19:57 AM »
Why can’t people just say that a band’s sound no longer resonates with them the way it once did? It’s okay to admit that. Tastes change and evolve, and there’s nothing wrong with that. To say a band is uninspired because you’re not excited by them anymore though, that’s not fair.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2021, 08:35:28 AM »
To answer the question, no.  Anyone who would say they are "uninspired" is probably just grasping for a big sounding word to hide behind and somehow blame the band for the fact that their own personal taste and DT's music just aren't a match, for whatever reason.  I don't think "uninspired" could possibly apply to DT in any context.
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2021, 09:08:52 AM »
To answer the question, no.  Anyone who would say they are "uninspired" is probably just grasping for a big sounding word to hide behind and somehow blame the band for the fact that their own personal taste and DT's music just aren't a match, for whatever reason.  I don't think "uninspired" could possibly apply to DT in any context.

I agree with this. I’ve said, as well as others, that in the last decade DT have really found their “sound”.  Some fans seem to want them to go back to the “every albums going to be totally different@ phase that they were in during the 2000s. Since they aren’t doing that, those fans called them “uninspired”. Or, like Bosk said, they are not a fan of this sound and style that the band has really perfected.
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Online Revenge319

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2021, 09:19:57 AM »
If I'm being completely honest here, I don't get what people even mean when they say "uninspired" anymore. Sometimes it feels like a completely meaningless word that people use when they want to say they don't like something. And I don't mean this in a rude way at all; I'm not at all saying I find those opinions invalid or something like that, that's just ridiculous. I'm just saying that I've seen "uninspired" being used so much in criticism, yet always making little to no sense to me, that it feel like the word's lost all meaning.

Regarding the idea of Dream Theater being uninspired specifically, I don't see how they come across as uninspired on any album or any song they've ever made.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2021, 09:24:47 AM »
I think a lot of DT fans say that the band are "uninspired" when really what they mean is "this type of music is no longer inspiring to me".
I think DT are obviously inspired, or they would not create.

I have surely felt "uninspired" by metal and prog many times. I've gone through phases where I just didn't listen to it at all, sometimes for years.
It would inaccurate to frame this as my favorite prog and metal bands doing something wrong or releasing bad music - obviously plenty of people still love it. It just so happens that I'm not always in the mood for it.

I think this is right (as is The Count's post that follows, and Revenge above).

I've been critical of the new album, but it's why it doesn't resonate with ME, not an indictment of their creativity.   

Offline Elite

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2021, 09:26:17 AM »
An inspired DT song now would sound different to what they've done before. The new album sounds stale. I don't hear the creative inspiration in it, despite the new studio and everything. While I guess I'm glad the band finally realize James's vocal limitation now, it has resulted in a less inspired product this time around. Less varied. Where's the ballad, for instance?

Finally! An album without the obligatory same-old piano-and-vocal track that adds absolutely nothing to my enjoyment of their discography.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2021, 09:27:07 AM »
I do find it funny as well when what's regarded as "uncreative" or "uninspired" to a lot of people seems to be a matter of adhering to a checklist (too many songs with chugs, no ballad, too many parts sound too familiar) rather than actually digging deep into the music and dissecting it beyond a purely aesthetic level (with the spot-the-song-reference exercises being a particualrly annoying example of shallow analysis imo). I think that approach often neglects the possibility that an artist can still be creative and inspired while having a lot of chugging moments, less song types and variations on a fundamentally similar style.

Not to mention, the word uninspired is one of my biggest music criticism pet peeves because it's just flat out insulting. Discussions over cohesion, balance and how the music serves to fit a theme can be debated and doesn't judge the artist themselves. "Uninspired" is pseudo-critique that smacks of an attempt to drag down the artist over a piece of music simply not clicking with them. At the end of the day, music is a collection of features and identifiers that are often relative (intensity, complexity, style, rhythms, about a particular topic etc.). To an artist, that collection of features may mean enough for them (and likely have enough confidence that it'll mean something to others) to produce and put out to their audience. If you wanted to actually know what was "uninspired", you'd have to look at the instances in which the artist themselves has described it as such. It just so happens that this often doesn't correlate with public opinion of the music, kind of like when people talk about "filler tracks".

Along with people framing their criticisms as objective in general (or doing it by impulse), the word is something I really wish would disappear from music discourse. It's not constructive (imagine being a musician and getting the feedback of "idk, it just sounds uninspired", absolutely useless) and it contributes to making discussions more toxic imo.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2021, 09:28:19 AM »
To answer the question, no.  Anyone who would say they are "uninspired" is probably just grasping for a big sounding word to hide behind and somehow blame the band for the fact that their own personal taste and DT's music just aren't a match, for whatever reason.  I don't think "uninspired" could possibly apply to DT in any context.

When the band releases a 60 min album of 12 bar blues songs in 6/8 time with Petrucci playing only the minor pentatonic then yes.

Until then no.

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2021, 09:30:55 AM »

I also am frustrated when people say DT needs to "reinvent" themselves. In my opinion, they did that on Six Degrees,

How did they reinvent them selves. I have never understood this. people also say it was experimental. Why? Because they had some weird ending in Misunderstood?

I don't think they have songs before that approach the style of The Glass Prison, Misunderstood, The Great Debate, and Disappear. It is highlighted more by the contrast with Disc 2, which is more in line with the DT "sound" of I&W and SFAM.


Yeah but I&W and SFAM are good.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Elite

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2021, 09:37:20 AM »
'Unnspired' is not really the best word to use. However we can look at the album and find a bunch of very obvious similarities between songs that I think are a bad development in comparison to some of their other work in the past.

One of those is the way James sings vocal lines; I know he's not capable of doing the same thing as on old albums, but compare the vocal lines on (for example) Take the Time and Caught in a Web to the ones you hear on the new record and it's obvious that those on the new album have less ambitus and are sung with less power.

An other example is the way Dream Theater structure their instrumental passages and most notably the solo sections. On previous albums the solo sections would be long, interesting (that's personal preference) journeys, whereas nowadays they'll throw in a circular, repetitive riff to solo over. Usually that riff will have no connection to the rest of the song either. Again, compare the instrumental sections in Metropolis, Beyond this Life, Blind Faith or In the Presence of Enemies (Pt. 2) to those in Answering the Call, Invisible Monster or Transcending Time to get the idea.

Whether or not that's 'uninspired' is not mine to say, but it does make the end result less exciting to me than it could have been, knowing what the band has produced in the past.
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Offline Kyo

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2021, 09:38:53 AM »
I do find it funny as well when what's regarded as "uncreative" or "uninspired" to a lot of people seems to be a matter of adhering to a checklist (too many songs with chugs, no ballad, too many parts sound too familiar) rather than actually digging deep into the music and dissecting it beyond a purely aesthetic level (with the spot-the-song-reference exercises being a particualrly annoying example of shallow analysis imo). I think that approach often neglects the possibility that an artist can still be creative and inspired while having a lot of chugging moments, less song types and variations on a fundamentally similar style.

Not to mention, the word uninspired is one of my biggest music criticism pet peeves because it's just flat out insulting. Discussions over cohesion, balance and how the music serves to fit a theme can be debated and doesn't judge the artist themselves. "Uninspired" is pseudo-critique that smacks of an attempt to drag down the artist over a piece of music simply not clicking with them. At the end of the day, music is a collection of features and identifiers that are often relative (intensity, complexity, style, rhythms, about a particular topic etc.). To an artist, that collection of features may mean enough for them (and likely have enough confidence that it'll mean something to others) to produce and put out to their audience. If you wanted to actually know what was "uninspired", you'd have to look at the instances in which the artist themselves has described it as such. It just so happens that this often doesn't correlate with public opinion of the music, kind of like when people talk about "filler tracks".

Along with people framing their criticisms as objective in general (or doing it by impulse), the word is something I really wish would disappear from music discourse. It's not constructive (imagine being a musician and getting the feedback of "idk, it just sounds uninspired", absolutely useless) and it contributes to making discussions more toxic imo.

Great post, bravo!
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2021, 09:48:10 AM »
In my experience, the word "uninspired" is often used in place of "I don't like this". It's honestly one of my biggest pet peeves when discussing music. My favorite example of this is actually The Astonishing. Dream Theater released the longest album of their career, which was also arguably the strangest album of their career, which was also one of their most expensive albums to make, which also had one of the most extensive marketing campaigns of any album, which JP and JR in particular spoke about with a lot of excitement in interviews, which was accompanied by elaborate visuals for a unique world tour... And then the record came out and a bunch of people said it was "uninspired". :lol
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Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2021, 09:54:50 AM »
I personally think "it sounds uninspired" is a perfectly reasonable critique to make.  To imply that an artist will always be bursting at the seems with energy and creativity, especially when this is a business, is just not realistic.    There will be times when the members of Dream Theater will be 100% inspired and times when they may not be.  That is just human nature and is the same for every band and every artist throughout time.

For example, had Portnoy, who admittedly was tired and ready for a break been involved in the entire creative process for ADTOE, I'm guessing the lack of inspiration would have shined through in his playing.

I don't think its an insult... I think it's an acknowledgement of human nature.   If something comes off as lazy songwriting to me I don't think it means "I don't like the band anymore".  It just means I know they are capable of better as I have heard them make more creative choices. 

With all that said, I like the new album and I'm happy they still have it in them.




Offline Stadler

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2021, 09:57:37 AM »
One of those is the way James sings vocal lines; I know he's not capable of doing the same thing as on old albums, but compare the vocal lines on (for example) Take the Time and Caught in a Web to the ones you hear on the new record and it's obvious that those on the new album have less ambitus and are sung with less power.

I think tonally he sounds great; I have no knock with his abilities; but I do have some criticism with the choices. There are ways of highlighting the vocals, or emphasizing one's strengths.  James' voice is a beautiful instrument, but it's not - now - going to hang with the rest of the band at full flight.   So integrate that limitation and make it a strength.  Rush did this to perfection starting as far back as Permanent Waves.   Well-placed keyboard washes; structuring the arrangement of the choruses to highlight certain melodies...  James has a lot of tools at his disposal; he's particularly good at that double-tracked vocal (with the high register in the background) and the band is gifted with their background vocals.  It seems that the concensus is that this is an album that focuses on "sick playing"; you can have sick playing and still work as a unit. 

Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2021, 09:57:55 AM »
In my experience, the word "uninspired" is often used in place of "I don't like this". It's honestly one of my biggest pet peeves when discussing music. My favorite example of this is actually The Astonishing. Dream Theater released the longest album of their career, which was also arguably the strangest album of their career, which was also one of their most expensive albums to make, which also had one of the most extensive marketing campaigns of any album, which JP and JR in particular spoke about with a lot of excitement in interviews, which was accompanied by elaborate visuals for a unique world tour... And then the record came out and a bunch of people said it was "uninspired". :lol

I think that was a very small subsection of people using that word.   Most people that disliked The Astonishing did not dislike it because of a lack of ambition or inspiration. 

Offline CDrice

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2021, 09:59:15 AM »
Of course they are! All they did since their beginning is do things that Rush, Metallica, Yes and others did before and just repackage it. Talk about being uninspired and uncreative.

But seriously, when someone say something like this I just take it as it meaning that they don't like or don't resonate with the music and I move on. I just don't see the point of dwelling too much about it when I can listen to some awesome music instead!  :metal

Offline NoFred

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2021, 10:07:16 AM »
One of those is the way James sings vocal lines; I know he's not capable of doing the same thing as on old albums, but compare the vocal lines on (for example) Take the Time and Caught in a Web to the ones you hear on the new record and it's obvious that those on the new album have less ambitus and are sung with less power.

I think tonally he sounds great; I have no knock with his abilities; but I do have some criticism with the choices. There are ways of highlighting the vocals, or emphasizing one's strengths.  James' voice is a beautiful instrument, but it's not - now - going to hang with the rest of the band at full flight.   So integrate that limitation and make it a strength.  Rush did this to perfection starting as far back as Permanent Waves.   Well-placed keyboard washes; structuring the arrangement of the choruses to highlight certain melodies...  James has a lot of tools at his disposal; he's particularly good at that double-tracked vocal (with the high register in the background) and the band is gifted with their background vocals.  It seems that the concensus is that this is an album that focuses on "sick playing"; you can have sick playing and still work as a unit.

I’ve been wondering how much of this has to do with him not being able to be on site for the initial writing sessions. I felt D/T had excellent “band working with the vocals” especially something like AWE. This time around I only really picked up on Jordan’s work around the vocals.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2021, 11:02:59 AM »
'Unnspired' is not really the best word to use. However we can look at the album and find a bunch of very obvious similarities between songs that I think are a bad development in comparison to some of their other work in the past.

One of those is the way James sings vocal lines; I know he's not capable of doing the same thing as on old albums, but compare the vocal lines on (for example) Take the Time and Caught in a Web to the ones you hear on the new record and it's obvious that those on the new album have less ambitus and are sung with less power.

An other example is the way Dream Theater structure their instrumental passages and most notably the solo sections. On previous albums the solo sections would be long, interesting (that's personal preference) journeys, whereas nowadays they'll throw in a circular, repetitive riff to solo over. Usually that riff will have no connection to the rest of the song either. Again, compare the instrumental sections in Metropolis, Beyond this Life, Blind Faith or In the Presence of Enemies (Pt. 2) to those in Answering the Call, Invisible Monster or Transcending Time to get the idea.

Whether or not that's 'uninspired' is not mine to say, but it does make the end result less exciting to me than it could have been, knowing what the band has produced in the past.

I mean at least you frame it as your opinion.

My perspective on this is that a lot of the similarities are tenuous and superficial. They're obvious in the sense that there are similarities, but this isn't exactly the kind of thing that'd hold up in a plagiarism case if they were a different band (not that I'm saying you said that, but just to drive the main point). When you add up all the stuff that's going on in the compared parts, I think it becomes clear that there's more to the parts than just a reference to the past. Plus, not to beat a dead horse... but after 15 albums (and the other members taking part in a number of other projects) I'd expect some familiar phrases to pop up now and again. I also don't think the odd similar part here and there to past songs is any worse than the overt references to other bands (be it Queensryche, Metallica, U2, Opeth, Muse), where some of them (These Walls to Linkin Park's From the Inside or Never Enough to Muse's Stockholm Syndrome) cut arguably a lot closer. In my mind, if I tolerate hearing Forty Six & Two in Home, I can tolerate hearing a mild similarity to ITPoE in The Alien, particularly when the whole is still pretty different in both cases.

With the vocals, I'm not really concerned about power because I frankly don't like his ultra-gritty performances on Awake all that much anyway. In my view, his lines on the new album are far more tasteful and evocative, even when the melodies are more unorthodox. Sleeping Giant in particular, which gives off this lush, theatrical vibe to me. I should also re-post what I wrote about The Alien to drive home the point here:

'I do personally have the feeling that stuff that's considered flaws (i.e. the pretty dense and jarring structure and James' melodies) actually complement the theme. In my mind, of course a song about terraforming planets and exploring space in the context of Earth being wrecked is going to have an explorative, yet uneasy and uncertain tension about its progression and that also applies to the vocals that seem to rarely sit on a more singable melody other than the "Our holy grail..." and the "I am the alien..." bits, which feel like moments of acceptance (though not necessarily triumph) among the nervous chaos. For instance, the pretty jagged, hurried melody in the first verse concluding with "Options but a few, we are running out of time" feels very much appropriate. Same with how the part that ends in "...All that you've known left behind" has this kind of obscure, ominous vibe.

The tone keeps switching because in my opinion, a topic like this is pretty complicated and bittersweet (which the ending also musically seems to represent with that ecstatic guitar solo followed by that tense symphonic chordal thing). You've got the seemingly endless possibilities unlocked by technological advancement juxtaposed with the grim realisation that we're escaping our deyaying home planet, which I think is the sort of thing that would spark that sort of inner turmoil represented emotionally by this song (I know I'm kinda repeating myself here, but just to emphasise the point). Given the song's subject matter, I definitely can understand why the vocal melodies aren't typically hooky in the vein of The Enemy Inside or Untethered Angel, which feature more grounded, relatable topics and the melodies seem to reflect their own themes in that regard, too. However, I also think the melodies, while not accessible, are filled with intent and purpose all the same, though I appreciate that this is something down to personal interpretation.'

James is of course limited by his age, but I think he works within those limitations wonderfully to deliver a performance that doesn't just go for catchy melodies, but fitting them and the delivery to the themes of the music. A song like Transcending Time also deeply moves me with what I see as a highly mature and sensitive performance (I also think it's understated just how poetic the TT lyrics are for modern JP as well) that I'd take any day over something like Caught in a Web.

The part about instrumental sections feels like confirmation bias as well, because they've always kinda had this mix of jam-based instrumental sections with more composed sections. Hell, Beyond This Life I'd say is far more "throw in a circular, repetitive riff to solo over" (perhaps even as circular as it gets arguably) than something like Sleeping Giant or the epic. All BTL does is introduce a riff after a while, repeat the pattern a few times, then the unisons. Fatal Tragedy has something like this too. Hell, that one doesn't really have any connection to the rest of the song either. I'm not saying this to say these are bad sections either, but that the phenomenon that you're pointing out isn't really exclusive to modern DT and that I think there are a lot of notable exceptions.

I personally think "it sounds uninspired" is a perfectly reasonable critique to make. To imply that an artist will always be bursting at the seems with energy and creativity, especially when this is a business, is just not realistic. There will be times when the members of Dream Theater will be 100% inspired and times when they may not be. That is just human nature and is the same for every band and every artist throughout time.

Except it isn't. It lacks any actual substace as a criticism. The thing is, music can't "sound uninspired" and it's not really something you can quantify (at least without it being a synonym for simply "music I do not like"). Again, something like cohesion can have common reference points, even if it's still a subjective judgement.

Another problem here is that the level of inspiration is just being assumed, when you most likely do not know how the artist felt while writing or how the process went. If we look at the external clues beyond simply enjoying the album or not, then A View would be a far more "inspired" album than Awake and The Astonishing would be one of JP's most inspired works, but I get the feeling that a lot of the people using that word for the new album aren't looking at it in that way. Often it's literally just guess-work in spite of excuberance and energy on the part of the band, so I'm not sure it's really all that reasonable.

I should also mention that generally, being uninspired musically... means not writing anything. From what I remember from people who have seen the band write in the last two decades or so from the outside (like Jimmy T), whether it's Systematic Chaos or the new album, seem to note how quickly the ideas fly out there as well as how they develop and refine those ideas just as fast. When you've got that much instrumental talent in a room, it's very unlikely that ideas aren't going to happen because even if JP suddenly has a bad day, you've still got 3 instrumentalists that are bouncing around ideas (albeit at differing rates).

I don't think its an insult... I think it's an acknowledgement of human nature.   If something comes off as lazy songwriting to me I don't think it means "I don't like the band anymore".  It just means I know they are capable of better as I have heard them make more creative choices.

Correction: "It just means I know they are capable of catering to my personal tastes more."

Hours of thought and refinement could've gone into an idea that you might think is uninspired and something you think was genius could've been something that the band considered not even releasing. This is exactly the issue a lot of us have with the words "uninspired" or "uncreative".

Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2021, 11:22:40 AM »
'Unnspired' is not really the best word to use. However we can look at the album and find a bunch of very obvious similarities between songs that I think are a bad development in comparison to some of their other work in the past.

One of those is the way James sings vocal lines; I know he's not capable of doing the same thing as on old albums, but compare the vocal lines on (for example) Take the Time and Caught in a Web to the ones you hear on the new record and it's obvious that those on the new album have less ambitus and are sung with less power.

An other example is the way Dream Theater structure their instrumental passages and most notably the solo sections. On previous albums the solo sections would be long, interesting (that's personal preference) journeys, whereas nowadays they'll throw in a circular, repetitive riff to solo over. Usually that riff will have no connection to the rest of the song either. Again, compare the instrumental sections in Metropolis, Beyond this Life, Blind Faith or In the Presence of Enemies (Pt. 2) to those in Answering the Call, Invisible Monster or Transcending Time to get the idea.

Whether or not that's 'uninspired' is not mine to say, but it does make the end result less exciting to me than it could have been, knowing what the band has produced in the past.

I mean at least you frame it as your opinion.

My perspective on this is that a lot of the similarities are tenuous and superficial. They're obvious in the sense that there are similarities, but this isn't exactly the kind of thing that'd hold up in a plagiarism case if they were a different band (not that I'm saying you said that, but just to drive the main point). When you add up all the stuff that's going on in the compared parts, I think it becomes clear that there's more to the parts than just a reference to the past. Plus, not to beat a dead horse... but after 15 albums (and the other members taking part in a number of other projects) I'd expect some familiar phrases to pop up now and again. I also don't think the odd similar part here and there to past songs is any worse than the overt references to other bands (be it Queensryche, Metallica, U2, Opeth, Muse), where some of them (These Walls to Linkin Park's From the Inside or Never Enough to Muse's Stockholm Syndrome) cut arguably a lot closer. In my mind, if I tolerate hearing Forty Six & Two in Home, I can tolerate hearing a mild similarity to ITPoE in The Alien, particularly when the whole is still pretty different in both cases.

With the vocals, I'm not really concerned about power because I frankly don't like his ultra-gritty performances on Awake all that much anyway. In my view, his lines on the new album are far more tasteful and evocative, even when the melodies are more unorthodox. Sleeping Giant in particular, which gives off this lush, theatrical vibe to me. I should also re-post what I wrote about The Alien to drive home the point here:

'I do personally have the feeling that stuff that's considered flaws (i.e. the pretty dense and jarring structure and James' melodies) actually complement the theme. In my mind, of course a song about terraforming planets and exploring space in the context of Earth being wrecked is going to have an explorative, yet uneasy and uncertain tension about its progression and that also applies to the vocals that seem to rarely sit on a more singable melody other than the "Our holy grail..." and the "I am the alien..." bits, which feel like moments of acceptance (though not necessarily triumph) among the nervous chaos. For instance, the pretty jagged, hurried melody in the first verse concluding with "Options but a few, we are running out of time" feels very much appropriate. Same with how the part that ends in "...All that you've known left behind" has this kind of obscure, ominous vibe.

The tone keeps switching because in my opinion, a topic like this is pretty complicated and bittersweet (which the ending also musically seems to represent with that ecstatic guitar solo followed by that tense symphonic chordal thing). You've got the seemingly endless possibilities unlocked by technological advancement juxtaposed with the grim realisation that we're escaping our deyaying home planet, which I think is the sort of thing that would spark that sort of inner turmoil represented emotionally by this song (I know I'm kinda repeating myself here, but just to emphasise the point). Given the song's subject matter, I definitely can understand why the vocal melodies aren't typically hooky in the vein of The Enemy Inside or Untethered Angel, which feature more grounded, relatable topics and the melodies seem to reflect their own themes in that regard, too. However, I also think the melodies, while not accessible, are filled with intent and purpose all the same, though I appreciate that this is something down to personal interpretation.'

James is of course limited by his age, but I think he works within those limitations wonderfully to deliver a performance that doesn't just go for catchy melodies, but fitting them and the delivery to the themes of the music. A song like Transcending Time also deeply moves me with what I see as a highly mature and sensitive performance (I also think it's understated just how poetic the TT lyrics are for modern JP as well) that I'd take any day over something like Caught in a Web.

The part about instrumental sections feels like confirmation bias as well, because they've always kinda had this mix of jam-based instrumental sections with more composed sections. Hell, Beyond This Life I'd say is far more "throw in a circular, repetitive riff to solo over" (perhaps even as circular as it gets arguably) than something like Sleeping Giant or the epic. All BTL does is introduce a riff after a while, repeat the pattern a few times, then the unisons. Fatal Tragedy has something like this too. Hell, that one doesn't really have any connection to the rest of the song either. I'm not saying this to say these are bad sections either, but that the phenomenon that you're pointing out isn't really exclusive to modern DT and that I think there are a lot of notable exceptions.

I personally think "it sounds uninspired" is a perfectly reasonable critique to make. To imply that an artist will always be bursting at the seems with energy and creativity, especially when this is a business, is just not realistic. There will be times when the members of Dream Theater will be 100% inspired and times when they may not be. That is just human nature and is the same for every band and every artist throughout time.

Except it isn't. It lacks any actual substace as a criticism. The thing is, music can't "sound uninspired" and it's not really something you can quantify (at least without it being a synonym for simply "music I do not like"). Again, something like cohesion can have common reference points, even if it's still a subjective judgement.

Another problem here is that the level of inspiration is just being assumed, when you most likely do not know how the artist felt while writing or how the process went. If we look at the external clues beyond simply enjoying the album or not, then A View would be a far more "inspired" album than Awake and The Astonishing would be one of JP's most inspired works, but I get the feeling that a lot of the people using that word for the new album aren't looking at it in that way. Often it's literally just guess-work in spite of excuberance and energy on the part of the band, so I'm not sure it's really all that reasonable.

I should also mention that generally, being uninspired musically... means not writing anything. From what I remember from people who have seen the band write in the last two decades or so from the outside (like Jimmy T), whether it's Systematic Chaos or the new album, seem to note how quickly the ideas fly out there as well as how they develop and refine those ideas just as fast. When you've got that much instrumental talent in a room, it's very unlikely that ideas aren't going to happen because even if JP suddenly has a bad day, you've still got 3 instrumentalists that are bouncing around ideas (albeit at differing rates).

I don't think its an insult... I think it's an acknowledgement of human nature.   If something comes off as lazy songwriting to me I don't think it means "I don't like the band anymore".  It just means I know they are capable of better as I have heard them make more creative choices.

Correction: "It just means I know they are capable of catering to my personal tastes more."

Hours of thought and refinement could've gone into an idea that you might think is uninspired and something you think was genius could've been something that the band considered not even releasing. This is exactly the issue a lot of us have with the words "uninspired" or "uncreative".

All reasonable points but you’re also working under the assumption that the band is fully and equally inspired on every album and with every creative choice.  I don’t think that’s realistic.   I agree that there is literally no possible way to know how inspired a band member is which is why I say “it comes off as uninspired or it sounds uninspired” to me. 

As a big kinks fan I choose to believe Ray Davies was uninspired in the 80’s and not that he just completely lost the ability to write a good song.

There are also countless directors that I point to that clearly aren’t working under the same fire and inspiration they once did.  Take for example Tim Burton….   

I understand your points and perhaps calling a piece of art uninspired is lazy or misguided but I also don’t think everything boils down to “I either like them or I don’t”.   Artists do cut corners, artists do make art for different reasons then they perhaps used to when they were younger and didn’t have families.  When they were starving or couldn’t put food on the table etc… bands do lose inspiration as do directors, athletes, etc….

Again I want to make it clear that I really like the new album and don’t think they were uninspired here.  Although I do think they play it a tad safe, with great results.


Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2021, 11:54:10 AM »
All reasonable points but you’re also working under the assumption that the band is fully and equally inspired on every album and with every creative choice.  I don’t think that’s realistic.   I agree that there is literally no possible way to know how inspired a band member is which is why I say “it comes off as uninspired or it sounds uninspired” to me. 

It's not that I think the level of inspiration is equal, it's that I don't think the level of inspiration is measurable and without comments from those involved relating to that, there's no way we can even really guess, like you say. Even if you attribute it as your own opinion, you might as well just say "I don't like it", because it holds just as much substance, exepct without the implicit denigration of the artist's effort (as opposed to just the product).

As a big kinks fan I choose to believe Ray Davies was uninspired in the 80’s and not that he just completely lost the ability to write a good song.

There are also countless directors that I point to that clearly aren’t working under the same fire and inspiration they once did.  Take for example Tim Burton….   

Again, both instances of simply not liking the material and trying to validate that with assumptions. I get where the motivation to do that might come from, but I still don't think it holds any water, unless it's backed up by reports of them literally struggling to create their works and admitting to having forced it out, or anything of that sort. You could say it's janky, corny or cliched maybe and find some way to find a reference point that people can dig into, because those terms are centred around the results. "Uninspired" is centred around assumptions about the process itself.

I understand your points and perhaps calling a piece of art uninspired is lazy or misguided but I also don’t think everything boils down to “I either like them or I don’t”.   Artists do cut corners, artists do make art for different reasons then they perhaps used to when they were younger and didn’t have families.  When they were starving or couldn’t put food on the table etc… bands do lose inspiration as do directors, athletes, etc….

In the discussions around the quality of art, it does boil down to that though. Stuff that's considered among the worst music ever made has people who enjoy it, after all. Even in instances of corner cutting... that's bascially just streamlining and you often get people who prefer the outcomes when more economic and perhaps "lazy" methods are used and commissioned musicians have made some incredible stuff imo, so I don't think "doing art for the money" is an inherently bad thing either. Not to mention, people encounter inspiration in different ways. Some take inspiration from some of the darkest moments in their lives while others take it from moments of comfort and security. It's not some linear thing because often, these aren't the same kind of ideas that would be generated under those different circumstances. Again, part of why I think bringing up the concept of inspiration within music critique is such a dead end.


Offline bosk1

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2021, 12:02:25 PM »
Great posts, Enigma.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2021, 12:04:47 PM »
What it boils down to for me :

• This is their FIFTEENTH album in 36 years. I'm not expecting them to suddenly change sound overnight. Just happy that they're still writing TOP QUALITY albums.

The new album is 70 minutes with barely any padding.


• Nothing on the last couple of albums has sounded like they can't be bothered with this anymore or they're just going through the motions.

Offline Skeever

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2021, 12:30:33 PM »
The only time I've ever felt Dream Theater released something that felt almost "uninspired": Raw Dog.

I'm not sure what the circumstances around its release were, because none of the bands who had songs on that video game EP seemed to be saving their best stuff for it. But even then, there was still some inspiration. There were things about that song that felt like experiments in a direction that they wouldn't have gone otherwise.

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2021, 12:58:10 PM »
What it boils down to for me :

• This is their FIFTEENTH album in 36 years. I'm not expecting them to suddenly change sound overnight. Just happy that they're still writing TOP QUALITY albums.

The new album is 70 minutes with barely any padding.


• Nothing on the last couple of albums has sounded like they can't be bothered with this anymore or they're just going through the motions.

This. Regardless of your thoughts on DT12 or TA, I think that 'most' fans would agree that DOT and A View...are chock full of moments were the band is pushing themselves. Now, whether or not said direction is in line with what one might personally want is a whole other matter.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2021, 01:52:37 PM »
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Is DT truly "uninspired?"
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2021, 02:52:12 PM »

As a big kinks fan I choose to believe Ray Davies was uninspired in the 80’s and not that he just completely lost the ability to write a good song.

You know, that's a great reference there, but it makes me think that it's also important WHAT you're inspired by.  The Kinks went through several distinct periods, and I happen to like the '80s one as much as any.  That was their "arena rock" phase, and while it reeked of "sellout" compared to the rock operas of the '70s, I thought it was a real test of their talent that they could pivot so successfully.  I think back and I can name as many inspirations as I can bands I like.   Kiss, inspired to make Destroyer because they had been playing the same songs for four years, guitar bass and drums and wanted to expand.   Genesis, inspired to make A Trick Of The Tail because they had to show they were more than Peter's backing band (and Phil was more than the twee singer of "More Fool Me").   Steven Tyler, inspired to make Rock In A Hard Place because that dick Joe Perry and his whore wife thought they were the cat's meow and took their ball and went home.  Neil Young, inspired to make Tonight's The Night after watching his friend and bandmate wither and die from drug abuse.

Honestly, I'm agnostic about inspiration; if a band I liked was about to lose their homes, or go defunct because of lack of income, and were thus "inspired" to put out a record documenting that, I think that's as valid as anything else.    I just think when we start to put ourselves in someone else's head and "guess" what they're thinking is foolhardy at best.