How many "epics" does Dream Theater have?

[Kotowboy]

GUYS WHAT YOU ON ABOUT ?

Everything from A Fortune in Lies to A View From The Top of The World is one GARGANTUAN epic.

Also - any album is a concept album if you over-analyse it enough.

[Trav86]

That went from a hot take to a bizarre take, but the internet is gonna internet sometimes.

Pretty much explains the last decade.

OMG can we NOT normalise decade erasure?! FFS

Say what?

[DTA]

15+ minutes has always been my epic threshold. So something like Flow from Spock’s Beard would be considered an epic, but Tower One from The Flower Kings would not.

So DT would have 8 to include ANTR. AMBI feels too separate to feel like a true epic.

[Kotowboy]

That went from a hot take to a bizarre take, but the internet is gonna internet sometimes.

Pretty much explains the last decade.

OMG can we NOT normalise decade erasure?! FFS

Say what?

Shoulda used green ?

[LKap13]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

[HOF]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

Same.

[erwinrafael]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

[HOF]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

More like a collection of discrete songs with a connecting concept, but musically it does not flow as one piece at all.

[Elite]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

More like a collection of discrete songs with a connecting concept, but musically it does not flow as one piece at all.

Aside from the recurring themes in the Overture, but you can sort of hear that one was written as an afterthought to 'connect' everything.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

More like a collection of discrete songs with a connecting concept, but musically it does not flow as one piece at all.

Not sure what you're listening to.  It flows just fine to me.



Let's see...

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

6.

[The Letter M]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

More like a collection of discrete songs with a connecting concept, but musically it does not flow as one piece at all.

Not sure what you're listening to.  It flows just fine to me.



Let's see...

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

6.

No TCOT? If you say it's because it's under 20 minutes, might I remind you that IT is technically only 19:18 long, has 30 seconds of silence, then the rest is 2.5 minutes of unrelated "Easter Egg" duet music with JP and JR. Even the live version of IT is under 20 minutes long.

I think if anyone includes IT on the basis of length alone, they should include TCOT since it's just two seconds shorter at 19:16 long.

-Marc.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

More like a collection of discrete songs with a connecting concept, but musically it does not flow as one piece at all.

Not sure what you're listening to.  It flows just fine to me.



Let's see...

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

6.

No TCOT? If you say it's because it's under 20 minutes, might I remind you that IT is technically only 19:18 long, has 30 seconds of silence, then the rest is 2.5 minutes of unrelated "Easter Egg" duet music with JP and JR. Even the live version of IT is under 20 minutes long.

I think if anyone includes IT on the basis of length alone, they should include TCOT since it's just two seconds shorter at 19:16 long.

-Marc.

I include IT because IMO it belongs on that list.  I don't include TCOT because IMO it doesn't belong on that list.

[The Letter M]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

More like a collection of discrete songs with a connecting concept, but musically it does not flow as one piece at all.

Not sure what you're listening to.  It flows just fine to me.



Let's see...

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

6.

No TCOT? If you say it's because it's under 20 minutes, might I remind you that IT is technically only 19:18 long, has 30 seconds of silence, then the rest is 2.5 minutes of unrelated "Easter Egg" duet music with JP and JR. Even the live version of IT is under 20 minutes long.

I think if anyone includes IT on the basis of length alone, they should include TCOT since it's just two seconds shorter at 19:16 long.

-Marc.

I include IT because IMO it belongs on that list.  I don't include TCOT because IMO it doesn't belong on that list.

By that logic, I include TCOT because it does belong on the list of DT epics. 

-Marc.

[hefdaddy42]

If we must quibble, TCOT is definitely long enough, but it's just silly.  It, to me, does not have the same gravitas that any of the other epics has.  It is epically long, but does not FEEL epic.  At all.

[The Letter M]

If we must quibble, TCOT is definitely long enough, but it's just silly.  It, to me, does not have the same gravitas that any of the other epics has.  It is epically long, but does not FEEL epic.  At all.

To each their own, I suppose, but I think it has epic feel to it, especially the closing section once the strumming acoustic guitar comes in. James' vocals are big, soaring, and just evoke a feeling of "this is epic" to me, and lyrically speaking, it's not any less silly than ITPOE. But I respect your opinion and could definitely see how one might feel that way about it, but I don't feel that way at all. To me, TCOT has always been the epic album closer for BC&SL and sits in the upper echelon of DT songs as one of the (now seven) epics.

-Marc.

[AVFTTOTW]

I consider "epics" to be multi-movement Songs, rather than just multi-section songs (aka Metropolis has three sections, replacing the verse-chorus-bridge of pop songs).

ACOS is an epic
SDIOT is an epic
ITNOG is a multi-section song
8VM is an epic
ITPOE is an epic
TMOLS is a multi-section song
TCOT is a multi-section song
IT is an epic (just not a great one)
AVFTTOTW is an epic


Things get more convoluted when it comes to "A Mind By Itself", which is technically an epic even though it's never been considered one song, rather just three separate songs (one which used to be part of an early demo of Pull Me Under, fun fact) with some loosely related musical themes and shared lyrical themes.

[AVFTTOTW]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

A Mind By Itself is individual songs, SDIOT is more of a single song than SFAM (even though that both rave run-in tracks).

With SDIOT you just have to break down it's structure (aside from just listening to it) to see that it is one piece.

The Overture has all the major themes which are churned out again and again and again through all the movements.
About To Crash is the bookend, upbeat "home" area of the song featuring several themes which are revisited later.
WIMH/TTTSTA is a bridge section which contrasts ATC and reprises/variation more themes from the Overture in a developed fashion, TTTSTA is also a variation from the middle of ATC.
GK is a second bridge which contrasts the previous and is likewise (as with WIMH/TTTSTA) is a variation on certain portions of the Overture, and with the guitar solo reprising a theme from the Overture.
SS is an upbeat breakaway point (my least favorite part of the song mood-wise) which serves mainly as a transition back into a developed version of About to Crash.
The ATC reprise is not just a reprise of it's name sake but containing elements of GK and SS, and a direct restating of parts of the Overture with the full band, followed by a reprise of WIMH.
Whereas Loosing Time/Grand-finale is a variation and development of a certain melody and progression that occurs not only in the Overture but in ATC and GK too.


The song of SDOIT is not a single story, but then the only DT epic that even tells a story is ITPOE. All other DT epics are more loosely relating themes and philosophies.
Moments from SDOIT can be played live separately but they only work with reference to the song as a whole. It contains no standalone movements.

[Wim Kruithof]

If we must quibble, TCOT is definitely long enough, but it's just silly.  It, to me, does not have the same gravitas that any of the other epics has.  It is epically long, but does not FEEL epic.  At all.

To me it does. It surely does. Especially the one played in London, where Petrucci weaved a lullaby in. But in no other epic they ever made, LaBrie tops a solo on his own, where his voices is absolutely fabulous, when the Tuscany-driver counters the words of Petrucci. One of my all time favorites.

[pg1067]

Every DT fan I knew back in the 90s (and there were a bunch) considered A Mind Beside Itself to be one song.  It was only when I got online and saw some saying it wasn't that I heard anybody say that it wasn't.

It's funny - this post got me second guessing my memories, so I asked a bunch of old school fans that were all on the Ytsejam Mailing List in the mid 90s how they viewed AMBI, and of the 14 responses thus far, all have said 3 songs aside from a few people who said they actually viewed Erotomania and Voices as one song and TSM as separate. None viewed it as an epic or even as a suite. So it's pretty strange that everyone you knew before you got online all thought it was an epic.

I didn't vote in this poll because "epic" isn't a term that has a generally accepted meaning, and I don't care to come up with a definition.  That said, having been a fan since 1992 (which means I got Awake at the time or shortly after it was released), I have never considered AMBI to be a single song.  In fact, I'm fairly confident that there was a while when I forgot about the name "A Mind Beside Itself."

[hefdaddy42]

having been a fan since 1992 (which means I got Awake at the time or shortly after it was released), I have never considered AMBI to be a single song. 

All of this.

[bosk1]

having been a fan since 1992 (which means I got Awake at the time or shortly after it was released), I have never considered AMBI to be a single song. 

All of this.

Same.  It has never been presented or described by the band as a single song.  Ever.  So, as with other things in their discography, "considered" doesn't even enter into the picture for me.  It doesn't matter what I or anyone else "consider" it to be.  It is a suite of 3 songs.  But at the end of the day, that doesn't really matter either. 

[svisser]

If SDOIT is not an epic, the neither is Octavarium. You can easily argue that Octavarium is also made up of separate songs with a similar lyrical theme. Each part just flows better than SDOIT.

But that also makes me question the definition of epic. If it's just about a similar lyrical theme, then SFAM is an epic. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If SDOIT is not an epic, the neither is Octavarium. You can easily argue that Octavarium is also made up of separate songs with a similar lyrical theme. Each part just flows better than SDOIT.

But that also makes me question the definition of epic. If it's just about a similar lyrical theme, then SFAM is an epic. 

I agree. It's hard to separate them unless the length is what matters...and then it always seems that the question is: is the song long enough? It's never is it too long. They're both epics. I still like MP's definition of epic, which would include both 8VM and SDOIT...possibly even Scenes, which is also obviously a concept album.

[Wim Kruithof]

If SDOIT is not an epic, the neither is Octavarium. You can easily argue that Octavarium is also made up of separate songs with a similar lyrical theme. Each part just flows better than SDOIT.

But that also makes me question the definition of epic. If it's just about a similar lyrical theme, then SFAM is an epic. 

I can't see the fact that if SDoIT is not an epic, then neither is Octavarium. The concept album is arguable filled with separate songs with a similar lyrical theme (well, the similarity is based on the octave). The song reflects on these tracks in the IV Intervals-part, but a man can hardly say the song Octavarium itself is made out of different songs. It just has five sections.

Six Degrees on the other hand is split up by Dream Theater, so they think of it as eight stand-alone songs, to say the least. They are caught in this lyrical (and musical) concept or theme, with these psychical or mental disorders... but are classified as different tracks. So the song Six Degrees is not a single song (or epic) per se, Octavarium curtainly is... (to me).

[gzarruk]

So, do we just ignore what the band has said about their own songs?

A Mind Beside Itself was never a full song, but a suite of songs. That's how the band, the writers and owners of the songs, wanted it to be. If it is one song, so is the 12-step one... and it isn't.

As for SDOIT and ITPOE, those are in fact full songs, it doesn't really matter what we think of them or want them to be. These were just split into different tracks for different reasons: Six Degrees because it was too long and they wanted to have easy access to each part for the listener; and Presence because they wanted it both at the start and the end of the album and also because they didn't want 2 albums in a row to end with a 20+ minute song.

Those facts have been documented in various interviews, etc. Also, both appear listed as one song on the making-of videos of each album AND have live versions officially released as one song/track (Score and CIM).

And before we get the "but those aren't always performed as full songs for live shows" argument, neither does ACOS, and I don't see anyone saying it isn't one song because of that

TL;DR: DON'T IGNORE THE FACTS


 

[gzarruk]

I don't consider sdoit to be an epic but rather a collection of individual songs

So more of like the medley in Abbey Road?

More like a collection of discrete songs with a connecting concept, but musically it does not flow as one piece at all.

Aside from the recurring themes in the Overture, but you can sort of hear that one was written as an afterthought to 'connect' everything.

IIRC the SDOIT Overture was the first thing they (Jordan) wrote for the piece and the band just expanded that into the 42 minutes it ended up being, not the other way around.

[ZirconBlue]

It's funny - this post got me second guessing my memories, so I asked a bunch of old school fans that were all on the Ytsejam Mailing List in the mid 90s how they viewed AMBI, and of the 14 responses thus far, all have said 3 songs aside from a few people who said they actually viewed Erotomania and Voices as one song and TSM as separate. None viewed it as an epic or even as a suite. So it's pretty strange that everyone you knew before you got online all thought it was an epic.

I was mostly a lurker during the YML days.  The CD didn't include the AMBI title in the tracklist on the back of the case, so I didn't notice the AMBI title until much later, so for quite a while I thought of them as separate songs.  I just thought it was another example of the Reusable Riff phenomenon demonstrated elsewhere on the album.  (The Mirror and Lie are tied together just as strongly, but don't have title for the combined songs.)  Now, I think of them as a suite of songs. 

[KevShmev]

So, do we just ignore what the band has said about their own songs?

A Mind Beside Itself was never a full song, but a suite of songs. That's how the band, the writers and owners of the songs, wanted it to be. If it is one song, so is the 12-step one... and it isn't.

As for SDOIT and ITPOE, those are in fact full songs, it doesn't really matter what we think of them or want them to be. These were just split into different tracks for different reasons: Six Degrees because it was too long and they wanted to have easy access to each part for the listener; and Presence because they wanted it both at the start and the end of the album and also because they didn't want 2 albums in a row to end with a 20+ minute song.

Those facts have been documented in various interviews, etc. Also, both appear listed as one song on the making-of videos of each album AND have live versions officially released as one song/track (Score and CIM).

And before we get the "but those aren't always performed as full songs for live shows" argument, neither does ACOS, and I don't see anyone saying it isn't one song because of that

TL;DR: DON'T IGNORE THE FACTS


 

A Mind Besides Itself was presented as a single song/piece of music on the Live Scenes.... DVD.  Just saying...

[The Letter M]

So, do we just ignore what the band has said about their own songs?

A Mind Beside Itself was never a full song, but a suite of songs. That's how the band, the writers and owners of the songs, wanted it to be. If it is one song, so is the 12-step one... and it isn't.

As for SDOIT and ITPOE, those are in fact full songs, it doesn't really matter what we think of them or want them to be. These were just split into different tracks for different reasons: Six Degrees because it was too long and they wanted to have easy access to each part for the listener; and Presence because they wanted it both at the start and the end of the album and also because they didn't want 2 albums in a row to end with a 20+ minute song.

Those facts have been documented in various interviews, etc. Also, both appear listed as one song on the making-of videos of each album AND have live versions officially released as one song/track (Score and CIM).

And before we get the "but those aren't always performed as full songs for live shows" argument, neither does ACOS, and I don't see anyone saying it isn't one song because of that

TL;DR: DON'T IGNORE THE FACTS


 

A Mind Besides Itself was presented as a single song/piece of music on the Live Scenes.... DVD.  Just saying...

Taking a look at various entries on discogs, it appears that the Metropolis 2000 DVDs had the AMBI songs tracked separately, so even though the packaging reflects their connection as a suite, they each have their own indexed track on the DVD rather than playing as one continuous track, like ACOS.

-Marc.

[svisser]

And before we get the "but those aren't always performed as full songs for live shows" argument, neither does ACOS, and I don't see anyone saying it isn't one song because of that

TL;DR: DON'T IGNORE THE FACTS


 

 

[gzarruk]

So, do we just ignore what the band has said about their own songs?

A Mind Beside Itself was never a full song, but a suite of songs. That's how the band, the writers and owners of the songs, wanted it to be. If it is one song, so is the 12-step one... and it isn't.

As for SDOIT and ITPOE, those are in fact full songs, it doesn't really matter what we think of them or want them to be. These were just split into different tracks for different reasons: Six Degrees because it was too long and they wanted to have easy access to each part for the listener; and Presence because they wanted it both at the start and the end of the album and also because they didn't want 2 albums in a row to end with a 20+ minute song.

Those facts have been documented in various interviews, etc. Also, both appear listed as one song on the making-of videos of each album AND have live versions officially released as one song/track (Score and CIM).

And before we get the "but those aren't always performed as full songs for live shows" argument, neither does ACOS, and I don't see anyone saying it isn't one song because of that

TL;DR: DON'T IGNORE THE FACTS


 

A Mind Besides Itself was presented as a single song/piece of music on the Live Scenes.... DVD.  Just saying...

Taking a look at various entries on discogs, it appears that the Metropolis 2000 DVDs had the AMBI songs tracked separately, so even though the packaging reflects their connection as a suite, they each have their own indexed track on the DVD rather than playing as one continuous track, like ACOS.

-Marc.

Yep. Both the DVD and the CD version.

And before we get the "but those aren't always performed as full songs for live shows" argument, neither does ACOS, and I don't see anyone saying it isn't one song because of that

TL;DR: DON'T IGNORE THE FACTS


 

 

 

[Kotowboy]

IS A VIEW FROM THE TOP OF THE WORLD the best 'Epic' since Octavarium ?

For me it is. I really like In The Presence of Enemies Part I but not Part II. The Count is better and flows better imo. Illumination theory is all kinds of disjointed and just recycles the middle

of The Count - although the string section is very nice. The Breaking The Fourth Wall version is better. I find A VIEW FROM THE TOP... Their most consistent 'epic' since Octavarium.

And the middle section makes more sense and the guitar and cello section is lovely.

[Kram]

IS A VIEW FROM THE TOP OF THE WORLD the best 'Epic' since Octavarium ?

For me it is. I really like In The Presence of Enemies Part I but not Part II. The Count is better and flows better imo. Illumination theory is all kinds of disjointed and just recycles the middle

of The Count - although the string section is very nice. The Breaking The Fourth Wall version is better. I find A VIEW FROM THE TOP... Their most consistent 'epic' since Octavarium.

And the middle section makes more sense and the guitar and cello section is lovely.

Yes, absolutely!  I've been saying it's the best "song" (not just epic) since Octavrium for about 2 weeks now.

[Kotowboy]

I find I can follow the 'form' of A View better than the last few epics. Same with Octavarium. Each section seems to organically follow the previous section a bit better.

[KevShmev]

So, do we just ignore what the band has said about their own songs?

A Mind Beside Itself was never a full song, but a suite of songs. That's how the band, the writers and owners of the songs, wanted it to be. If it is one song, so is the 12-step one... and it isn't.

As for SDOIT and ITPOE, those are in fact full songs, it doesn't really matter what we think of them or want them to be. These were just split into different tracks for different reasons: Six Degrees because it was too long and they wanted to have easy access to each part for the listener; and Presence because they wanted it both at the start and the end of the album and also because they didn't want 2 albums in a row to end with a 20+ minute song.

Those facts have been documented in various interviews, etc. Also, both appear listed as one song on the making-of videos of each album AND have live versions officially released as one song/track (Score and CIM).

And before we get the "but those aren't always performed as full songs for live shows" argument, neither does ACOS, and I don't see anyone saying it isn't one song because of that

TL;DR: DON'T IGNORE THE FACTS


 

A Mind Besides Itself was presented as a single song/piece of music on the Live Scenes.... DVD.  Just saying...

Taking a look at various entries on discogs, it appears that the Metropolis 2000 DVDs had the AMBI songs tracked separately, so even though the packaging reflects their connection as a suite, they each have their own indexed track on the DVD rather than playing as one continuous track, like ACOS.

-Marc.

Yep. Both the DVD and the CD version.

Oh, so if a "single song" is not indexed as a single song, then it is not a single song, ala the Six Degrees suite on the Six Degrees album, or the two In the Presence of Enemies songs on Systematic Chaos, right?